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Post by habsorbed on Jun 23, 2014 22:15:47 GMT -5
The happiest person to hear this has to be PK. There is no way he's not getting what he's asking. MB can not go to the fans and say "Ya, we signed the over the hill guy almost $6 million for the next 3 years while he continues his slide but won't give the moving into his prime superstar $8 million for 8 when he would still be younger than Markov is now".
So I'm OK with the Markov deal as it means we will sign PK long term. And the limited NTC is the key if we need to dump Markov. From that perspective Markov gave up a lot. As he is not guaranteed to finish his career in Mtl.
One concern: Do we take a cap hit if Markov retires due to injury or desire over the next 3 years?
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Post by franko on Jun 23, 2014 22:18:57 GMT -5
Can you argue that Tinordi is worse then Murray? Then why did Murray play 53 games versus Tinordi's 22? Anything Murray did, Tinordi can do better AND improve in the process. So if you agree, then by definition, it was the coach who failed. Which is the second related argument. The big difference is that Murray scared the hell out of the opposing players....that was good enough for me to have him in the line up. scared me, too, when he was on the ice. don't get me wrong, he did play with heart. it was those little things . . . like skating . . . that made me want to curse MT for sitting Tinordi. mind you, Murray did do a pretty good Hal Gill impression.
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Post by franko on Jun 23, 2014 22:20:16 GMT -5
Can't wait to see him do that for a full season!! hope he gets the chance!
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Post by christrpn on Jun 24, 2014 6:43:43 GMT -5
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Post by christrpn on Jun 24, 2014 6:45:53 GMT -5
The happiest person to hear this has to be PK. There is no way he's not getting what he's asking. MB can not go to the fans and say "Ya, we signed the over the hill guy almost $6 million for the next 3 years while he continues his slide but won't give the moving into his prime superstar $8 million for 8 when he would still be younger than Markov is now". So I'm OK with the Markov deal as it means we will sign PK long term. And the limited NTC is the key if we need to dump Markov. From that perspective Markov gave up a lot. As he is not guaranteed to finish his career in Mtl. One concern: Do we take a cap hit if Markov retires due to injury or desire over the next 3 years? If he retires: yes If he's injured long term and can't play there's a clause that would allow the team to put him on LTIR and his salary would no longer be on the cap. That's what the flyers did to Pronger, because he is still not officially retired.
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Post by GNick99 on Jun 24, 2014 8:04:46 GMT -5
The happiest person to hear this has to be PK. There is no way he's not getting what he's asking. MB can not go to the fans and say "Ya, we signed the over the hill guy almost $6 million for the next 3 years while he continues his slide but won't give the moving into his prime superstar $8 million for 8 when he would still be younger than Markov is now". So I'm OK with the Markov deal as it means we will sign PK long term. And the limited NTC is the key if we need to dump Markov. From that perspective Markov gave up a lot. As he is not guaranteed to finish his career in Mtl. One concern: Do we take a cap hit if Markov retires due to injury or desire over the next 3 years? If he retires: yes If he's injured long term and can't play there's a clause that would allow the team to put him on LTIR and his salary would no longer be on the cap. That's what the flyers did to Pronger, because he is still not officially retired. Can they still do long term injury on 35+ contract? I thought they did away with that at last CBA. After 35+ they wanted retired players to count against cap as teams were adding years to contracts to lower average caphit.
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Post by christrpn on Jun 24, 2014 8:24:04 GMT -5
Again, I'm not sure about the ins and outs, but I read that if the injury is debilitating enough that the player will not come back for rest of the contract something could be done.
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Post by frozone on Jun 24, 2014 8:39:37 GMT -5
I actually think that Markov will still be playing fine hockey into the 3rd year of his contract. Because of his past injuries, he has already adapted to playing with low foot speed over the past couple of seasons. He relies on his mind and awareness to succeed, and I just don't think he'll lose his vision any time soon. Also, the way he played against Boston in the playoffs tells me that his heart is still 100% in it. His hit on Lucic was a statement.
Imo, his weak moments have been more because of burnout than age. It's on MT to keep his minutes in check.
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Post by Andrew on Jun 24, 2014 12:08:58 GMT -5
I’m happy with the deal. There is no suitable replacement for his minutes within the system, and we’re not in a position where we’re so rich with assets that we can trade to fill that hole. I expect that the Habs will try and reduce his minutes, to the benefit of the kids and Markov over the course of the season (and contract). In terms of cap risk it’s quite low. Assuming that he’s a total disaster next year, and the Habs are compelled to buy him out next June, the cap hit is spread out over 4 years and relatively low: 1.5M, 3.2M, 1.7M, 1.7M. If he’s bought out after year 2 then it’s 2.9M and 1.4 M in the following two years. Acceptable risk given the value he’s brought to the team over that past two years, and projections of the cap continuing to rise in coming years. Source: www.capgeek.com/buyout-calculator/?player_id=78&buyout_y=2015&buyout_m=06&buyout_d=24
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Post by UberCranky on Jun 24, 2014 12:38:13 GMT -5
Like I said, anything Murray does, Tinordi can do better and yet BECAUSE of the coach, BECAUSE of his often repeated tendency to go with a vet, Tins played 22 games, Murray 53. Getting rid of Boo and Murray gives Tinordi and Pateryn a chance, on the other hand, Beau value lays in his offensive ability, like the power play.......with Markov in his way. Anywho.....this signing is not about money or if Markov still capable of top 6 play, at least for another year, it's about distrusting a coach and his "safe choices". Hopefully, MB is showing hope that he has a plan that is smarter then his coach. IF things work out, Gorges and Markov are gone the following year and we have a developing Ministry Of Defense.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jun 24, 2014 14:10:58 GMT -5
Frankly I like the fact that we secured that asset rather than just lose it for nothing. No matter how you slice it, Markov is top4 material anywhere in the league, AND a PP general... Markov could have easily got that money and terms anywhere and probably more. So we have a guy "at the right price"...
For next year, that gives us, right now, 4 veterans (Subban, Markov, Gorges, Emelin) which opens the door for 2 rookies and that is a good situation to be in IMO. Complete with a veteran #7 who'll accept his role (Bouillon, Weaver...) and it looks good.
Now the fact that we have 4 bodys knocking at the NHL door (Beaulieu, Tinordi, Pateryn, Nygren) is another can of worms... we know we're ideally not going to have 3 rookie dmen simultaneously in the lineup... so that means 2 of them will likely continue their devellopment in another league (SEL/AHL)... again not a bad siutation to be in to have quality depth at hand on D... Or we use that young depth to get help up front (Pelks/Beaulieu for Kane?).
In any case, I think this is a good move by Berg.
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Post by blny on Jun 24, 2014 14:36:16 GMT -5
No doubt there are a plethora of young blue liners that necessitate decisions. I think you have to give Nygren a year in Hamilton before you contemplate trading him - unless the return is huge. PMD, right hand shot, etc. He just turned 24. By the end of next season, we'll know what we have I think. Pateryn can't/shouldn't be called up unless it's to stay. I think waivers come into play with him, and they'd lose him for sure. Tinordi needs a chance to play. He was only -2 in 22 games with Montreal. That's 3rd pair stuff, playing with Cube. More than acceptable. We simply don't have anyone else like him. I'm still hopeful that we see a third pair next year of Tinordi/Beaulieu-Weaver.
Rotate the kids in and out. Don't just dress Nate against smaller quick teams, and JT against bigger teams. Dress them for both scenarios. Fully suss them out.
Looking at the four, you have to think that Beaulieu and Nygren are the most alike. Pateryn might be a hybrid between Tinordi and the two. If Nygren impresses enough, I think you look to move Beaulieu.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jun 24, 2014 14:42:25 GMT -5
Just some precisions BLNY: Nygren does not want to play in the AHL: it's either NHL or back to Sweden. Pateryn does not have to clear waivers this year.
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Post by blny on Jun 24, 2014 14:54:16 GMT -5
Just some precisions BLNY: Nygren does not want to play in the AHL: it's either NHL or back to Sweden. Pateryn does not have to clear waivers this year. Thanks doc. Wasn't aware of Nygren's ultimatum, but I understand it. He can make more playing SEL than he can in the AHL. Camp will be interesting if both Beaulieu and Nygren are still part of the picture. I thought I'd read somewhere that Pateryn would have to clear, but if he doesn't that's a good thing.
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Post by GNick99 on Jun 24, 2014 15:01:36 GMT -5
Frankly I like the fact that we secured that asset rather than just lose it for nothing. No matter how you slice it, Markov is top4 material anywhere in the league, AND a PP general... Markov could have easily got that money and terms anywhere and probably more. So we have a guy "at the right price"... For next year, that gives us, right now, 4 veterans (Subban, Markov, Gorges, Emelin) which opens the door for 2 rookies and that is a good situation to be in IMO. Complete with a veteran #7 who'll accept his role (Bouillon, Weaver...) and it looks good. Now the fact that we have 4 bodys knocking at the NHL door (Beaulieu, Tinordi, Pateryn, Nygren) is another can of worms... we know we're ideally not going to have 3 rookie dmen simultaneously in the lineup... so that means 2 of them will likely continue their devellopment in another league (SEL/AHL)... again not a bad siutation to be in to have quality depth at hand on D... Or we use that young depth to get help up front (Pelks/Beaulieu for Kane?). In any case, I think this is a good move by Berg. Wish Weaver returns also. Can see a trade up in draft
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Post by Skilly on Jun 24, 2014 16:08:42 GMT -5
Just some precisions BLNY: Nygren does not want to play in the AHL: it's either NHL or back to Sweden. Pateryn does not have to clear waivers this year. Thanks doc. Wasn't aware of Nygren's ultimatum, but I understand it. He can make more playing SEL than he can in the AHL. Camp will be interesting if both Beaulieu and Nygren are still part of the picture. I thought I'd read somewhere that Pateryn would have to clear, but if he doesn't that's a good thing. It's not that Nygren wants to play more in Sweden .... He said he felt unsafe in Hamilton. Major case of the homesickies, if you ask me. I can't shake the feeling we will never see him in North America, which will be a waste of his 120mph cannon.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jun 25, 2014 13:35:00 GMT -5
...major case of "...I'm not gonna play for peanuts in a devellopment League..." I think. Fat NHL contract is a good cure for homesickeness.
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Post by christrpn on Jun 25, 2014 16:01:16 GMT -5
Just some precisions BLNY: Nygren does not want to play in the AHL: it's either NHL or back to Sweden. Pateryn does not have to clear waivers this year. Nygren has actually asked to be traded if he doesn't make the Habs this year. There was an article in Swedish but the writer happily gave me the cole's notes in English. It's not the AHL he doesn't like, it's Hamilton.
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Post by christrpn on Jun 25, 2014 16:02:41 GMT -5
Frankly I like the fact that we secured that asset rather than just lose it for nothing. No matter how you slice it, Markov is top4 material anywhere in the league, AND a PP general... Markov could have easily got that money and terms anywhere and probably more. So we have a guy "at the right price"... For next year, that gives us, right now, 4 veterans (Subban, Markov, Gorges, Emelin) which opens the door for 2 rookies and that is a good situation to be in IMO. Complete with a veteran #7 who'll accept his role (Bouillon, Weaver...) and it looks good. Now the fact that we have 4 bodys knocking at the NHL door (Beaulieu, Tinordi, Pateryn, Nygren) is another can of worms... we know we're ideally not going to have 3 rookie dmen simultaneously in the lineup... so that means 2 of them will likely continue their devellopment in another league (SEL/AHL)... again not a bad siutation to be in to have quality depth at hand on D... Or we use that young depth to get help up front (Pelks/Beaulieu for Kane?). In any case, I think this is a good move by Berg. Wish Weaver returns also. Can see a trade up in draft Weaveer wwill not be getting an offer before the 1st, it was confirmed. Which doesn't mean he won't be back but it allows him to explore other options rather than wait till the 1st
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Post by GNick99 on Jun 25, 2014 17:34:51 GMT -5
Wish Weaver returns also. Can see a trade up in draft Weaveer wwill not be getting an offer before the 1st, it was confirmed. Which doesn't mean he won't be back but it allows him to explore other options rather than wait till the 1st Sorry to hear about Weaver, I thought he was a solid pickup and gave team depth. But as I think about it imagine being 36 Habs thinking maybe somebody in free agency who is bigger, younger and can do same job for similar money. Somebody like a Clayton Stoner
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jun 25, 2014 20:55:52 GMT -5
Can you argue that Tinordi is worse then Murray? Then why did Murray play 53 games versus Tinordi's 22? Anything Murray did, Tinordi can do better AND improve in the process. So if you agree, then by definition, it was the coach who failed. Which is the second related argument. The big difference is that Murray scared the hell out of the opposing players....that was good enough for me to have him in the line up. Agree!! Not a 25 minute player but in the right spot against the right teams he did the job.
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Post by Skilly on Jun 26, 2014 17:40:23 GMT -5
Weaveer wwill not be getting an offer before the 1st, it was confirmed. Which doesn't mean he won't be back but it allows him to explore other options rather than wait till the 1st Sorry to hear about Weaver, I thought he was a solid pickup and gave team depth. But as I think about it imagine being 36 Habs thinking maybe somebody in free agency who is bigger, younger and can do same job for similar money. Somebody like a Clayton Stoner Man, I'd love that! I'm friends with his brother .... Road trip!!!
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Post by seventeen on Jun 27, 2014 1:29:14 GMT -5
ERic Engels on the Markov contract and other stuff: www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?blogger_id=82Early in P.K. Subban's career, the head coach of the Canadiens walks into the room between the second and third periods, his team clinging to a one-goal lead in an important game, and tells his defensive brigade to keep it simple with the puck. Get over the line, get it in deep.
Subban goes for a rush at some point in the third, and Andrei Markov scolds him severely. He emphasizes the importance of sticking to the plan, of being a team player. It's a harsh moment for a young player, who knows he's stepped over the line of what's acceptable to his teammates--specifically to a veteran teammate he idolizes. They simmer on the flight home to Montreal, and Markov insists Subban join him for dinner. The tone changes dramatically once they get there, all in the aim of making Subban understand that the point is to help make him a better player and a better teammate. In this act, Markov's provided more than leadership; he's offered a future leader an example of what it means to be truly one.
Over the years, we talked a lot about Hal Gill's influence, about Josh Gorges' anchor to Subban's buoyancy, but we know little about Markov's extroverted nature in addressing his teammate. He's always heralded as the quiet leader.
A while back, the Canadiens were entrenched in an unbelievable hockey game with the St. Louis Blues, and a pinch up the ice by Markov sends St. Louis to an overtime win, beating a frustrated Carey Price who gives his veteran defender a rye look.
A report surfaces the following morning that Markov got in Price's face in the locker room, and everyone yammers about how this incident is further proof of how the players on the Canadiens view young Price.
They seem to get along quite well now, don't they?
Review that incident with a concept of what you now know about Markov's leadership.
After signing his three-year extension this week, here's what Markov told Dave Stubbs in a feature that ran in today's Montreal Gazette :
"Maybe if I go on the free market I can get more. But after the money, maybe I lose more – maybe I lose the atmosphere, the city and the organization of Montreal."
That's not Stubbs putting a spin on how much deeper Markov is than most realize--it's Markov sharing a side of himself he rarely, if ever shows.
The article also reveals that Markov was waiting--anxiously--for an offer from Bergevin. Three years was greeted with "OK. It's over.".
The Canadiens and Bergevin know of the work Markov put in to get himself back to where the team needed him to be two seasons ago. They know of his influence with Subban, Price and others. They know of his leadership on the ice. They know that even if they wanted to keep this deal at less than three years, they couldn't allow Markov to test the waters of free agency while the plan is well in place to develop the young talent that promises a very bright future for Montreal's blue line.
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1) I've made several calls, but I haven't heard very much about the Canadiens plans for the next 72 hours, beyond the fact that they're trying to improve their draft position in the first round.
Bergevin--who's reminded several times that he's not a big fan of building through unrestricted free agency--is absolutely focused on trying to make his team better through trade.
Speculation's run rampant on names like Tomas Plekanec and Josh Gorges. Dustin Tokarski's another chip people are wondering about. I can't speak to the legitimacy of those players being dangled. Things are quiet around Montreal, and I'm certain the fans are hoping they're quiet because things are percolating under the radar.
From a couple of sources I've spoken with this morning, Bergevin certainly intends to further discussions on a contract extension for P.K. Subban as early as today. While the hometown Flyers and GM Ron Hextall zero in on trying to grab the first overall pick from Dale Tallon and the Florida Panthers, Bergevin's biggest splash could be announcing a new deal for his superstar defenseman.
But I don't have anything more than maybes about all scenarios involving the Canadiens right now, and the minute I have something that's firm (and hopefully, it's not too late), you'll all be the first to know.
2) Richard Labbe of La Presse reported that neither Mike Weaver nor Francis Bouillon has received an offer from the Canadiens, nor do they expect one to come between now and July 1st.
This report has led to speculation that the Canadiens could consider a defenseman off the free agent market.
Stephane Robidas?
Willie Mitchell?
Tom Gilbert?
Mark Fayne?
Certainly a lot of options for depth defenders out there Bergevin might consider to be upgrades on Weaver, Bouillon and Murray.
Matt Niskanen and Anton Stralman represent highly attractive commodities that figure to cash in big come July 1st.
3) Steve Yzerman did pretty well in acquiring high level picks and Ryan Callahan when Martin St. Louis forced his hand.
With the Lightning progressing, Yzerman couldn't afford to allow Callahan to walk to free agency and was forced to overpay him to avoid that eventuality.
Callahan drove a heavy bargain with the Rangers, and with the Lightning, knowing that the Buffalo Sabres would've been happy to pay him at least six million dollars per season on maximum term.
Dustin Brown got an eight-year deal with the Kings at $5.85M before last season. They understood how crucial he was to the makeup of their team, even if he's not as prolific scorer as they'd like him to be. He proved them right once again in this year's playoffs.
Callahan secured his six-year deal at $5.8M per as a leader that's of the same ilk as Brown, but hard to argue that he's anywhere near as accomplished.
Hard to see this is a good deal for Tampa. Joe Pavelski makes $6M over a five-year contract, and he scored 41 goals and added 38 assists this season. Callahan scored 17 goals and 19 assists in 65 games this year between New York and Tampa, and recorded zero points in the playoffs.
4) Hextall dealt glue-guy Scott Hartnell for R.J. Umberger to get a shorter contract on the books. Umberger can do more than score, he can kill penalties, he can hit, he can block shots. But after a couple of bad concussions, you always have to wonder how many good seasons Umberger's got in him. And Hartnell is a scorer, an antagonist and a leader, who makes Columbus better.
Easy win for CBJ on this one.
5) Question of the day: What do the Habs do with Peter Budaj?
My opinion: He's staying as Price's backup.
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