|
Post by habsorbed on Jul 16, 2014 0:58:09 GMT -5
Getting Buffalo's second rounder for Gorges was a surprisingly good return. It would've been a great return if he'd actually gotten it, since it's pretty sure to be in the 30-35 range. But he didn't. He got us Minnesota's second rounder, likely to be a dozen spots later... Is a second rounder a good return? If that's a good return then he was either overrated and/or overpaid (probably both) when he was with us. How many contenders are trading away a top 4 dman from their roster for a second rounder? Presumably MB got the best return he could. If a second rounder was it, then it says volumes about what other gms think of one of our top 4 Dmen who also wore an 'A'. It was a salary dump which means it was a bad signing. Not blaming MB but don't see Gorges leaving for a second rounder as one of MB's better moves. I'd call it neutral. Altho let's see what happens with our leadership going forward.
|
|
|
Post by blny on Jul 16, 2014 6:58:47 GMT -5
I don't think there's much doubt that the whole snafu over draft weekend diminished Gorges' value. I don't think you'd get a strong top 6 winger for him, but the return went from Franson to a mid/late second. Of course, NTC/NMC have an impact too. Clearly the team that wasn't on his list was willing to pay more.
|
|
|
Post by BadCompany on Jul 16, 2014 7:17:30 GMT -5
I think a second rounder for Gorges, wherever it ends up being in that round, is a pretty good return, for that type of player. But having said that, I question whether or not we really needed to trade him. I don't buy into the "righty-lefty" thing as much as others do so I'm not sure I would have been trading away a big part of the locker room just to accommodate that, to say nothing of the mentoring he gave Gallagher over the last couple of years. But smarter minds than me disagree, so what do I know? IF Gorges HAD to be traded, then a second rounder is nice value, if you ask me.
I think the best moves that Bergevin has made have occurred off the ice, with the total restructuring of the organization, and the emphasis on not just scouting, but on development. To cross-thread a little bit, would things have been different if guys like Higgins and Komisarek were not left to their own devices in the Big City? How about Ribeiro and Latendresse? It's easy to say "well they should have known better" but we're talking about 20 year olds with too much money, fame, glory and women. Heck, when I was 20 I had none of those things and I still couldn't control myself. Some players - some people - would end up as train wrecks no matter what you do for them, but others, and I'm thinking Latendresse in particular, really could use a guiding hand when they're younger. I think Bergevin recognized this as something that was completely lacking here, and is working hard to rectify that situation. THAT could end up having the biggest payoff down the line, if you ask me.
|
|
|
Post by frozone on Jul 16, 2014 9:07:38 GMT -5
Very good. Sure it hasn't been perfect (Briere) but he corrected that mistake. The only move that I have doubts on is the Gorges trade. I was all for it at first, but I'm having doubts. Our leadership core is just so young now. I'm not sure how that will play out. The Habs really seemed to come together during the Tampa series. I don't think I've ever seen the team as united as they were in that series, and now I'm a bit worried that we took a step back.
Markov - Subban Emelin - Gilbert Beaulieu - Weaver Tinordi - Pateryn Drewiske - Nygren
More importantly, when I look at the defensive depth chart, I don't see the potential for strong PK units. It looks like Markov will be seeing a lot of PK minutes again this year, which is a bad thing imo. I think we would have been better off keeping Gorges to play on the bottom left pairing and promoting Pateryn or Nygren to play on the right side with him. I understand wanting to make room on the left side for Tinordi/Beau, but Pateryn and Nygren seem equally as NHL ready imo. We already had an opening on the right anyway before signing Gilbert/Weaver. I think mid season would have been a much better time to trade Gorges... This trade just seems forced, despite the good return and the gain in cap space.
I certainly give MB credit for having the stones to make a call like this. He has done well enough so far that I'm willing to trust his judgement.
|
|
|
Post by Doc Holliday on Jul 16, 2014 12:06:34 GMT -5
I think Bergevin adressed a certain necessity to re-center the team on a younger veteran core. If we are to ever be a true contender year after year it will be because those young veterans will have taken the next step as far as team leaders, not only ON the ice, where they already are the difference makers, but OFF the ice as well. Guys like Subban, Price and Pacioretty should be at that point. It does feel like it is a bit "forced" right now but you won't swim if you don't jump in the water and you won't fly if you stay in the nest. Sometimes, someone needs to come up with that little push... and we still have quiet leaders around like Markov, Plekanec and Prust.
|
|
|
Post by sergejean on Jul 16, 2014 12:25:49 GMT -5
I voted very good. Above everything else, I am happy to see a clear plan and a massive investment not only on the ice but also in scouting and players development. It seems like MB has created a structure where everyone has a well defined role and is accountable for it.
As far as players, MB also showed a willingness to move and take some risk if he believes it will make the team better without sacrificing the future. He also is not afraid to fix any mistake he thinks he made i.e Briere. I feel this is refreshing and a sign of a leader capable of some introspection/autocriticism.
Another thing that I liked is MB telling the journalists after the departure of Gionta and Gorges that he was ready to take a step backward in order to advance after. So in other words, he is not wheeling and dealing just so that the team can make the playoffs and vanish after 1-2 rounds but rather building a team that can eventually compete for the big prize at the end.
I wasn't convinced after the first year but he got me on board after this season. Hopefully he can sign Subban long term and we keep looking ahead with the young core players.
|
|
|
Post by Willie Dog on Jul 16, 2014 12:38:59 GMT -5
Very good. Sure it hasn't been perfect (Briere) but he corrected that mistake. The only move that I have doubts on is the Gorges trade. I was all for it at first, but I'm having doubts. Our leadership core is just so young now. I'm not sure how that will play out. The Habs really seemed to come together during the Tampa series. I don't think I've ever seen the team as united as they were in that series, and now I'm a bit worried that we took a step back. Markov - Subban Emelin - Gilbert Beaulieu - Weaver Tinordi - Pateryn Drewiske - Nygren More importantly, when I look at the defensive depth chart, I don't see the potential for strong PK units. It looks like Markov will be seeing a lot of PK minutes again this year, which is a bad thing imo. I think we would have been better off keeping Gorges to play on the bottom left pairing and promoting Pateryn or Nygren to play on the right side with him. I understand wanting to make room on the left side for Tinordi/Beau, but Pateryn and Nygren seem equally as NHL ready imo. We already had an opening on the right anyway before signing Gilbert/Weaver. I think mid season would have been a much better time to trade Gorges... This trade just seems forced, despite the good return and the gain in cap space. I certainly give MB credit for having the stones to make a call like this. He has done well enough so far that I'm willing to trust his judgement. I think a bunch of the leadership in the tampa series came from guys like Weaver and Weise, they stepped up and lead by example and continued to do so in the Bruins series.
|
|
|
Post by Patty Roy on Jul 16, 2014 14:39:15 GMT -5
If simply "Good" was an option for this poll i'd go with that.
Overall i like what he did with the D. I think Gilbert/Weaver is an upgrade on Gorges/Bouillon. I'm optimistic that shifting Emelin to the left side also will make him better and more comfortable at dishing out those big open ice hits like we saw in his first season. I'm also happy that they are making room for Beaulieu and Tinordi.
Offensively i believe that we have taken a tiny hit...still missing a top 9 guy although the Briere deal was an excellent one and letting Gionta walk was the right decision. Malhotra should be a nice fit, and getting a true 4th line C was the right call, but i probably would have preferred going after Prust's buddy Brian Boyle if he would have been willing to sign with us for $2 million per.
Get Subban and Eller re-signed to reasonable deals and i'd bump this summer's work up to Very Good.
|
|
|
Post by Boston_Habs on Jul 16, 2014 15:05:03 GMT -5
If simply "Good" was an option for this poll i'd go with that. Overall i like what he did with the D. I think Gilbert/Weaver is an upgrade on Gorges/Bouillon. I'm optimistic that shifting Emelin to the left side also will make him better and more comfortable at dishing out those big open ice hits like we saw in his first season. I'm also happy that they are making room for Beaulieu and Tinordi. Offensively i believe that we have taken a tiny hit...still missing a top 9 guy although the Briere deal was an excellent one and letting Gionta walk was the right decision. Malhotra should be a nice fit, and getting a true 4th line C was the right call, but i probably would have preferred going after Prust's buddy Brian Boyle if he would have been willing to sign with us for $2 million per. Get Subban and Eller re-signed to reasonable deals and i'd bump this summer's work up to Very Good. My sentiments as well. I just don't think he's tackled the fundamental prroblem, which is even strength scoring. We were an AWFUL offensive team before the Vanek acquisition and I think the strong finish to 100 points and the playoff push obscured what was, until we acquired Vanek, a highly disappointing season. I like the moves this summer, but so far Berg has punted on the big issues like finding another top 6 winger, and dealing with the challenge of grooming Galchenyuk at the centre position and what that means for one of DD, Pleks, or Eller. Of course you need a partner to make a trade, but so far Berg has been competent and that's the least that I expect of him. I do agree with BC that he's brought some professionalism and leadership to the management team, but this team needs to score more goals next year to be taken seriously and I'm not sure we have enough guys that can do that.
|
|
|
Post by UberCranky on Jul 16, 2014 15:09:09 GMT -5
Get Subban and Eller re-signed to reasonable deals and i'd bump this summer's work up to Very Good. on the other hand, if he screws up PK and lands up with a two year contract in arbitration and then PK signs elsewhere, he might as well pack his bags. the lack of news of PK's signing is not "good news".
|
|
|
Post by seventeen on Jul 16, 2014 15:11:22 GMT -5
I think a second rounder for Gorges, wherever it ends up being in that round, is a pretty good return, for that type of player. But having said that, I question whether or not we really needed to trade him. I don't buy into the "righty-lefty" thing as much as others do so I'm not sure I would have been trading away a big part of the locker room just to accommodate that, to say nothing of the mentoring he gave Gallagher over the last couple of years. But smarter minds than me disagree, so what do I know? IF Gorges HAD to be traded, then a second rounder is nice value, if you ask me. Yeah, the right/left thing is a smoke screen, though some guys just can't play their off wing so to speak. What do Bobby Orr, Brad Park, Serge Savard and Denis Potvin have in common? Beside being the best or amongst the best defensemen of their times, they all were left handed and played the right side most often. It certainly didn't seem to hurt them. Yes, it's an adjustment, but it also gives them all kinds of advantages, especially shooting on net. No, the desire to move Gorges stems from something else and I feel it relates to either chemistry between he and another guy or two and the desire to move on from a leadership group that for some reason is not as highly thought by someone in management. I have no idea who that is. Gorges bleeds red white and blue, so it's not a loyalty or commitment issue. I do think his skills were deteriorating, but he still had plenty left in the tank, and he could still be an effective PK'er and 5-6 dman. Perhaps that's it. He's not quite a 4 and his salary doesn't leave room for him to be a 5/6. Maybe it's just a salary scale issue. As Occam's razor postulates, if there are competing theories for the same result, the simplest theory is the right answer.
|
|
|
Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jul 16, 2014 15:23:10 GMT -5
I think a second rounder for Gorges, wherever it ends up being in that round, is a pretty good return, for that type of player. But having said that, I question whether or not we really needed to trade him. I don't buy into the "righty-lefty" thing as much as others do so I'm not sure I would have been trading away a big part of the locker room just to accommodate that, to say nothing of the mentoring he gave Gallagher over the last couple of years. But smarter minds than me disagree, so what do I know? IF Gorges HAD to be traded, then a second rounder is nice value, if you ask me. Yeah, the right/left thing is a smoke screen, though some guys just can't play their off wing so to speak. What do Bobby Orr, Brad Park, Serge Savard and Denis Potvin have in common? Beside being the best or amongst the best defensemen of their times, they all were left handed and played the right side most often. It certainly didn't seem to hurt them. Yes, it's an adjustment, but it also gives them all kinds of advantages, especially shooting on net. No, the desire to move Gorges stems from something else and I feel it relates to either chemistry between he and another guy or two and the desire to move on from a leadership group that for some reason is not as highly thought by someone in management. I have no idea who that is. Gorges bleeds red white and blue, so it's not a loyalty or commitment issue. I do think his skills were deteriorating, but he still had plenty left in the tank, and he could still be an effective PK'er and 5-6 dman. Perhaps that's it. He's not quite a 4 and his salary doesn't leave room for him to be a 5/6. Maybe it's just a salary scale issue. As Occam's razor postulates, if there are competing theories for the same result, the simplest theory is the right answer. No insider info, but it almost certainly was cap $pace. He was well liked, bled bleu blanc rouge, lived with Gallagher. He was at the ceiling of a number six Dman making $3.9 million with players that needed to be signed under the cap. Beaulieu and Tinordi play as well, have a higher ceiling and cost less.
|
|
|
Post by CentreHice on Jul 16, 2014 16:12:21 GMT -5
I think the best moves that Bergevin has made have occurred off the ice, with the total restructuring of the organization, and the emphasis on not just scouting, but on development. To cross-thread a little bit, would things have been different if guys like Higgins and Komisarek were not left to their own devices in the Big City? How about Ribeiro and Latendresse? It's easy to say "well they should have known better" but we're talking about 20 year olds with too much money, fame, glory and women. Heck, when I was 20 I had none of those things and I still couldn't control myself. Some players - some people - would end up as train wrecks no matter what you do for them, but others, and I'm thinking Latendresse in particular, really could use a guiding hand when they're younger. I think Bergevin recognized this as something that was completely lacking here, and is working hard to rectify that situation. THAT could end up having the biggest payoff down the line, if you ask me. Well put. I think we all feel that dimension has been restored….Gainey and Gauthier failed miserably in addressing the decline started by Houle et al with the Roy fiasco. Darn near 20 years of neglect/oversight. While we will never again see the days of management "strongly encouraging" their younger players to get married and SETTLE DOWN--as recounted by Yvan Cournoyer--we should expect management to mentor their youth through the rigors of early fame, fortune, and "opportunities". Key to team development. The list of wasted talent and promise, as BC has listed, is embarrassingly long enough.
|
|
|
Post by stoat on Jul 16, 2014 17:55:44 GMT -5
I hate to quibble with those who may be wiser than I am but Occam's hypothesis would lead to the simplest solution but not necessarily the best. Hockey trades have many components: talent, team need, chemistry, money, cap space. contract length. and perhaps other factors. The Habs gained on some aspects of the Gorges trade but lost on others.
|
|
|
Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 16, 2014 18:32:14 GMT -5
If simply "Good" was an option for this poll i'd go with that. I didn't do this intentionally, I thought "average" meant the same thing. Thanks for the feedback :-) Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by seventeen on Jul 16, 2014 20:13:28 GMT -5
I hate to quibble with those who may be wiser than I am but Occam's hypothesis would lead to the simplest solution but not necessarily the best. Hockey trades have many components: talent, team need, chemistry, money, cap space. contract length. and perhaps other factors. The Habs gained on some aspects of the Gorges trade but lost on others. Occam's razor isn't necessarily right all the time, but it's probably right more of the time than it's wrong. Personally, the first time I heard of it, I thought it was competition for Gillette.
|
|
|
Post by jkr on Jul 17, 2014 6:39:41 GMT -5
For me it comes down to Subban. What's going to happen to the team's best player? It is now just two weeks to his arbitration date & I don't want to see it come to that.
All the positive things he has achieved are lost if this goes badly.
|
|
|
Post by Doc Holliday on Jul 17, 2014 8:57:21 GMT -5
For me it comes down to Subban. What's going to happen to the team's best player? It is now just two weeks to his arbitration date & I don't want to see it come to that. All the positive things he has achieved are lost if this goes badly. Agree with that. Frankly I am floored that we are July 14th 2014 and that our best player is still not signed long term. If we end up in arbitration with Subban, this will be a blunder of epic proportion for this franchise.
|
|
|
Post by jkr on Jul 17, 2014 9:04:24 GMT -5
For me it comes down to Subban. What's going to happen to the team's best player? It is now just two weeks to his arbitration date & I don't want to see it come to that. All the positive things he has achieved are lost if this goes badly. Agree with that. Frankly I am floored that we are July 14th 2014 and that our best player is still not signed long term. If we end up in arbitration with Subban, this will be a blunder of epic proportion for this franchise. They played their last game of the season May 29th. It's now 7 weeks. I know there are lots of parts to running a hockey team but this is priority one. It takes precedence over everything else.
|
|
|
Post by Doc Holliday on Jul 17, 2014 9:09:28 GMT -5
Agree with that. Frankly I am floored that we are July 14th 2014 and that our best player is still not signed long term. If we end up in arbitration with Subban, this will be a blunder of epic proportion for this franchise. They played their last game of the season May 29th. It's now 7 weeks. I know there are lots of parts to running a hockey team but this is priority one. It takes precedence over everything else. ...it's been priority #1 since last summer... Geoff Molson said this was the most important situation to resolve way back at the 2013 golf tournament...
|
|
|
Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 17, 2014 10:35:58 GMT -5
He's the future face of the franchise, IMHO, anyway ... there's a lot of focus on Bergevin during this process even if we don't know who is offering/countering with what ... for all we know the Subban Camp could be asking for the moon ... Bergevin could be low-balling Subban, but again, who knows ... and not knowing this I find it hard to point fingers on either side ....
Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by The Habitual Fan on Jul 17, 2014 10:46:38 GMT -5
Just wondering but say if PK's camp opening request was 9 mil a year over 8 years with full no movement clause and the Habs start at 7.5 over 7 years with partial no trade, that would be a far way apart and it was PK's choice to hold out last time so I wouldn't look at the lack of movement being all on Bergevin.
|
|
|
Post by Doc Holliday on Jul 17, 2014 10:56:43 GMT -5
Dis, Subban has to be asking for the moon... last time around Bergevin had the upper hand and forced Subban into a low-ball borderline insulting deal, paying him like a 4th-5th dmen... What goes around comes around.
76mil/8yrs is the magic number IMO.
|
|
|
Post by seventeen on Jul 17, 2014 11:28:20 GMT -5
I suspect the Quebec tax situation is playing into this too. Equal gross numbers don't match net numbers for various players depending on the province or state. I'm not that concerned as these things can go late sometimes, but both sides have a lot to lose if they don't agree.
|
|
|
Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 17, 2014 11:59:55 GMT -5
Dis, Subban has to be asking for the moon... last time around Bergevin had the upper hand and forced Subban into a low-ball borderline insulting deal, paying him like a 4th-5th dmen... What goes around comes around. 76mil/8yrs is the magic number IMO. Doc, what you're suggesting, here, makes sense when I look at your updated cap figures (just noticed it as I was replying to you) ... Bergevin is looking at what's best for the club, while the PK Camp may feel they're doing the NHLPA a favour ... if Berg does cave, then Lars Eller might be as good as gone ... moreover, less cap space equates to less options come the next playoff run ... if PK is looking for Toews/Kane type scratch, then I tend to agree with JKR ... show us a few Cups and then make your case ... I don't know what this argument would equate to, but I figure Bergevin has a strong argument (based on what JKR suggested, of course) ... edit: and like you said, PK's camp might have the "what's-good-for-the-goose-is-good-for-the-gander" ... Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by Willie Dog on Jul 17, 2014 12:26:09 GMT -5
I'm sure Bergevin is letting the PK camp know that if he wants to win a cup, he can't take away the ability for Bergevin to bring in missing pieces for a cup run. I hope they agree on an average cap hit of about 8.5, 9.5 does not leave MB any wiggle room at the trade deadline to land an impact player.
|
|
|
Post by UberCranky on Jul 17, 2014 12:42:07 GMT -5
I stop being a PK fan the minute it comes out that PK wants north of 9 million.
This then becomes "show me the money and I don't care" versus "I want to play hockey and wion a cup". Fact of life is that there is no change of lifestyle between 7-8 million or 9-10 million. On the other hand, given there is a cap, the higher the number, the less likely a chance of a cup.
PK is good, really good, but he's no Bobby Orr and he ain't the "best" in the NHL. Plus if this goes sideways because he's greedy, the fans will turn against him. If he thinks the Hab fans are behind him because of any other reason then he can help us win a cup, then he's delusional.
|
|
|
Post by UberCranky on Jul 17, 2014 12:49:37 GMT -5
I'm sure Bergevin is letting the PK camp know that if he wants to win a cup, he can't take away the ability for Bergevin to bring in missing pieces for a cup run. I hope they agree on an average cap hit of about 8.5, 9.5 does not leave MB any wiggle room at the trade deadline to land an impact player. Dan Meehan is a notoriously greedy agent and he would like nothing less tyhen setting a record with his client. It's a feather in his companies hat.....and puts the cup further away for the Hab's. It's up to PK. He doesn't appear like a lap-dog petting air head BUT Meehan can spin and turn anything and everything the club says into dirt. "You see what the evil corporation did with Gorges? he's disposable just like you. So don't you want to be paid like a superstar from this greedy corporation?". At this point, I'm very concerned that has gone bad....
|
|
|
Post by The Habitual Fan on Jul 17, 2014 14:43:40 GMT -5
I thought PK showed a little lack of character a couple of years ago when in a shortened season he decided not to be in the opening lineup and sit out, that may have been on Meehan`s advice but who knows. I also think that Bergevin showed he is fine with playing hardball when he feels it is the best for the team. PK`s current contract, letting Gionta walk, trading Gorges and so on. He likely has a number in mind where he is comfortable paying PK and that is what we need in a GM.
|
|
|
Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 17, 2014 15:03:01 GMT -5
I thought PK showed a little lack of character a couple of years ago when in a shortened season he decided not to be in the opening lineup and sit out, that may have been on Meehan`s advice but who knows. I also think that Bergevin showed he is fine with playing hardball when he feels it is the best for the team. PK`s current contract, letting Gionta walk, trading Gorges and so on. He likely has a number in mind where he is comfortable paying PK and that is what we need in a GM. What I remember from PK sitting out was that the team was winning without him ... he had no choice but to get on the ice ... then he won a Norris ... as I was saying before, Bergevin is thinking of the big picture, or in the best interests of the club ... paying any price to land your star player may also be detrimental to the dressing room dynamic, as well ... Berg doesn't want to run the risk of players holding a gun to his head, which may just happen if he gives PK what he wants ... "you-did-it-for-PK-why-not-me?" Cheers.
|
|