|
Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 4, 2014 14:58:13 GMT -5
My big issue is the lack of scoring and the decision to double down on Michel Therrien. The day I saw the MarcArena is the day I stop worrying about MThead. This is Bergs team, not MTheads. I do not have the slightest, tinniest doubt that The Berg will execute MThead with extreme prejudice if he thinks he is hurting the team. I actually share the concern in the "Therrien factor" but Bergevin is all business and he knows how to get it done ... in hindsight, just look at the way he handled Erik Cole ... "this is what I have to do and why I have to do it" ... he was that way with Josh Gorges, too, but Josh's reaction was a tad different than Erik's ... would he pump Therrien if the team stopped responding to him? ... I believe, yes ... anything to keep the team moving forward ... Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by franko on Aug 4, 2014 15:33:56 GMT -5
Damn you UberjoyousecstaticAddict. You beat me to the response. You will be faster, stronger, smarter...when you are Eighteen. he can't wait to leave puberty and get to adultery.
|
|
|
Post by franko on Aug 4, 2014 15:36:51 GMT -5
poll the Berg's worst move and signing MT might be unanimous. that itself keeps him from an excellent grade. extending MT when he did knocks him down even further.
|
|
|
Post by UberCranky on Aug 4, 2014 15:59:50 GMT -5
I actually share the concern in the "Therrien factor" but Bergevin is all business and he knows how to get it done ... in hindsight, just look at the way he handled Erik Cole ... "this is what I have to do and why I have to do it" ... he was that way with Josh Gorges, too, but Josh's reaction was a tad different than Erik's ... would he pump Therrien if the team stopped responding to him? ... I believe, yes ... anything to keep the team moving forward ... Cheers. Exactly. I understand business and I understand and identify people who act like businessman. They will do things in a consistent, logical, methodical, ruthless manner. Feelings, emotion, friendships never comes into play. Only results count. THAT is how I see MB....and Goeff Molson.
|
|
|
Post by UberCranky on Aug 4, 2014 16:02:22 GMT -5
poll the Berg's worst move and signing MT might be unanimous. that itself keeps him from an excellent grade. extending MT when he did knocks him down even further. What were his better options in a French speaking coach? And make no mistake what one of the prime hiring criteria was and is. BTW...I don't like the criteria but that is the price of doing business in that particular market.
|
|
|
Post by Skilly on Aug 4, 2014 16:29:37 GMT -5
Okay, I'm drinking the Kool-Aid. I've been a Bergevin fan all along, in large part because I've liked the way he has addressed the off-ice personnel. I've thought for a long time that this was a huge gap in our organization, and in fact think that the Centennial Year collapse was in large part because of this gap. There was just no support system in place, and if you're trying to build a house with no support… well, you know how that goes. Now having said that, I didn't get it. I didn't see "the plan". Until now. I was looking at capgeek yesterday, and like Morpheus it suddenly all came together for me. This upcoming season will be our playoff university, as Bob Gainey used to say, and we're going for it, all in, the season after. 2015-16. I think this last playoff run was a bit of a surprise, but this year Bergevin is really going to be auditioning/training his team on what it takes to be a Championship team. And those that fail, will be gone. Because 2015-16 is the year. Subban's bridge contract set that stage; we have five players coming off of ELCs next summer, and not a single one of them will be able to argue for anything other than a bridge contract. While that may not seem like all that big a deal, when you see guys like Jake Gardiner getting over $4 million, skipping the bridge, it comes together. Nathan Beaulieu, for example, will have to take a bridge, and that will save a million or so. Ditto, or perhaps more relevantly, Alex Galchenyuk and Brendan Gallagher. If your generational talent has to take a bridge, and the GM is prepared to let him sit out to get it, then what chance do Galchenyuk and Gallagher have? Or Tinordi? Bournival? They will all take bridge deals, and while it may seem short-sighted in the long run, we're not looking long run anymore. We're looking at 2015-16, and every dime saved will be needed for that season. Because if it shakes out the way I can see it shaking out, we will have the core of our team not only locked up, but in their primes. With several of them playing for their Subban-like long term contract (all the guys coming off the bridge). Others will be playing for their UFA lives. AND we could be looking at anywhere from $8-10 million in cap space, after the bridges are signed and whoever of Eller, Plekanec and Desharnais fails Playoff U. With a cap increase of course. So with all that extra money lying around we'll be in a position to go for a big fish. A very big fish. Like, Alexander Ovechkin big. Yeah, I said it. Alex Ovechkin. I think the stars could be lining up for us to land Ovechkin next year, possibly at the draft. Wouldn't that be something? I kinda agree, and I kinda disagree. I agree that Bergevin has to go all in, either this year or next year. This year, he hasn't done a thing , yet, to improve the club. Other than spend money on more of the same, which is good , some of those signings we really need. Next year, that is the 2015-16 season, I don't like the idea of waiting that long to decide who are the top three centres you want when you finally decide to go for it ... If he wants his players to go to Hockey U , (not Playoff U), than this year is the year to get Galchenyuk adapted to center. He now hasn't played center in two years, and going into his third ... I don't think it will be so easy to flip the switch at the NHL level. I also agree, the only way we get better is dumping a salary, and getting a better player in return ... Plekanec is the one that on the surface looks like the odd one out. But will we find someone who will take it? An aging player, with declining production, with a year on his contract until UFA? I think he has to pull that trigger this year if that's his plan.
|
|
|
Post by seventeen on Aug 4, 2014 19:56:00 GMT -5
You will be faster, stronger, smarter...when you are Eighteen. he can't wait to leave puberty and get to adultery. Nah, 17 is better. Except for backward Ontario, at 18 you had to leave home (maybe not anymore). At 17, they don't even worry if you have a job or not. No responsibilities, enough cash. Lots of friends. I could be 17 forever. I always looked older than I was, so beer was no problem either. Yup, give me 17 and adultery.
|
|
|
Post by BadCompany on Aug 5, 2014 7:06:26 GMT -5
You had me up until....Ovechkin. Of all the players in the NHL, did you really have to drop his name in this? As a Honors graduate of Machavellian Academy I get the conspiratorial logic, I really do, but that is peyote level. But.....and there are always a couple of butts.... Tell me how that would fit into Bergs idea of players who either give a damn or are damned? Did you see the lucrative offer he gave Vanishing? No offer you say? And he is going to trade assets for someone who is already practicing vanishing techniques? Pot... spoon... Ovechkin is perhaps not in the mold that Bergevin acquires, but 50 goal scorers don't grow on trees. I also think Ovechkin's "character" issues are overblown somewhat, as they tend to be with a lot of players. You don't score 50 goals by not being driven, or by not working hard, no matter how much talent you have. It should also be noted that he averages over a point-per-game in the playoffs, and that's taking into account last year, when he only had 2 points in 7 games. And even last year he still had 30 shots in those 7 games, averaging over 4 shots-per-game. So he was still dangerous, though perhaps snake-bit. Besides, think how much fun it will be to have Ovechkin and Subban on the same team; the mushroom cloud from Don Cherry's head exploding would be visible three provinces over!
|
|
|
Post by stoat on Aug 5, 2014 9:06:25 GMT -5
Okay, I'm drinking the Kool-Aid. I've been a Bergevin fan all along, in large part because I've liked the way he has addressed the off-ice personnel. I've thought for a long time that this was a huge gap in our organization, and in fact think that the Centennial Year collapse was in large part because of this gap. There was just no support system in place, and if you're trying to build a house with no support… well, you know how that goes. Now having said that, I didn't get it. I didn't see "the plan". Until now. I was looking at capgeek yesterday, and like Morpheus it suddenly all came together for me. This upcoming season will be our playoff university, as Bob Gainey used to say, and we're going for it, all in, the season after. 2015-16. I think this last playoff run was a bit of a surprise, but this year Bergevin is really going to be auditioning/training his team on what it takes to be a Championship team. And those that fail, will be gone. Because 2015-16 is the year. Subban's bridge contract set that stage; we have five players coming off of ELCs next summer, and not a single one of them will be able to argue for anything other than a bridge contract. While that may not seem like all that big a deal, when you see guys like Jake Gardiner getting over $4 million, skipping the bridge, it comes together. Nathan Beaulieu, for example, will have to take a bridge, and that will save a million or so. Ditto, or perhaps more relevantly, Alex Galchenyuk and Brendan Gallagher. If your generational talent has to take a bridge, and the GM is prepared to let him sit out to get it, then what chance do Galchenyuk and Gallagher have? Or Tinordi? Bournival? They will all take bridge deals, and while it may seem short-sighted in the long run, we're not looking long run anymore. We're looking at 2015-16, and every dime saved will be needed for that season. Because if it shakes out the way I can see it shaking out, we will have the core of our team not only locked up, but in their primes. With several of them playing for their Subban-like long term contract (all the guys coming off the bridge). Others will be playing for their UFA lives. AND we could be looking at anywhere from $8-10 million in cap space, after the bridges are signed and whoever of Eller, Plekanec and Desharnais fails Playoff U. With a cap increase of course. So with all that extra money lying around we'll be in a position to go for a big fish. A very big fish. Like, Alexander Ovechkin big. Yeah, I said it. Alex Ovechkin. I think the stars could be lining up for us to land Ovechkin next year, possibly at the draft. Wouldn't that be something? I kinda agree, and I kinda disagree. I agree that Bergevin has to go all in, either this year or next year. This year, he hasn't done a thing , yet, to improve the club. Other than spend money on more of the same, which is good , some of those signings we really need. Next year, that is the 2015-16 season, I don't like the idea of waiting that long to decide who are the top three centres you want when you finally decide to go for it ... If he wants his players to go to Hockey U , (not Playoff U), than this year is the year to get Galchenyuk adapted to center. He now hasn't played center in two years, and going into his third ... I don't think it will be so easy to flip the switch at the NHL level. I also agree, the only way we get better is dumping a salary, and getting a better player in return ... Plekanec is the one that on the surface looks like the odd one out. But will we find someone who will take it? An aging player, with declining production, with a year on his contract until UFA? I think he has to pull that trigger this year if that's his plan. Plekanec did not have the most productive wings on his line yet managed to score 20 goals. That's pretty good, don't you think?
|
|
|
Post by Skilly on Aug 5, 2014 11:54:51 GMT -5
I kinda agree, and I kinda disagree. I agree that Bergevin has to go all in, either this year or next year. This year, he hasn't done a thing , yet, to improve the club. Other than spend money on more of the same, which is good , some of those signings we really need. Next year, that is the 2015-16 season, I don't like the idea of waiting that long to decide who are the top three centres you want when you finally decide to go for it ... If he wants his players to go to Hockey U , (not Playoff U), than this year is the year to get Galchenyuk adapted to center. He now hasn't played center in two years, and going into his third ... I don't think it will be so easy to flip the switch at the NHL level. I also agree, the only way we get better is dumping a salary, and getting a better player in return ... Plekanec is the one that on the surface looks like the odd one out. But will we find someone who will take it? An aging player, with declining production, with a year on his contract until UFA? I think he has to pull that trigger this year if that's his plan. Plekanec did not have the most productive wings on his line yet managed to score 20 goals. That's pretty good, don't you think? Oh I like Plekanec. If they didn't (subconsuciously, unwrittenly) change the rules for the Selke trophy, he'd be a shoe in almost every year. But if you are going to acquire a 9.5 million dollar offensive threat, you have to trade something. Would Washington want Desharnais? I really don't see it. In the best of worlds, we keep Plekanec and Eller, and Galchenyuk is our first line center in training camp ... but this is Newfoundland, not Disneyland, as my mother would tell me when I asked for too much. If such as trade is to be made that involves Plekanec, then I think it should be made this year. Next year his value drops at the start of the year, but will rise again at the deadline, when teams will take a chance at a rental who will be gone when the season is over.
|
|
|
Post by UberCranky on Aug 5, 2014 12:39:44 GMT -5
You had me up until....Ovechkin. Of all the players in the NHL, did you really have to drop his name in this? As a Honors graduate of Machavellian Academy I get the conspiratorial logic, I really do, but that is peyote level. But.....and there are always a couple of butts.... Tell me how that would fit into Bergs idea of players who either give a damn or are damned? Did you see the lucrative offer he gave Vanishing? No offer you say? And he is going to trade assets for someone who is already practicing vanishing techniques? Pot... spoon... Ovechkin is perhaps not in the mold that Bergevin acquires, but 50 goal scorers don't grow on trees. I also think Ovechkin's "character" issues are overblown somewhat, as they tend to be with a lot of players. You don't score 50 goals by not being driven, or by not working hard, no matter how much talent you have. It should also be noted that he averages over a point-per-game in the playoffs, and that's taking into account last year, when he only had 2 points in 7 games. And even last year he still had 30 shots in those 7 games, averaging over 4 shots-per-game. So he was still dangerous, though perhaps snake-bit. Besides, think how much fun it will be to have Ovechkin and Subban on the same team; the mushroom cloud from Don Cherry's head exploding would be visible three provinces over! Monkeys.....apples...... Machiavelli dandruff aside, do you really think that The Berg is going to trade major assets to acquire a $9,538,462 cap hit until we get destroyed by the Vogons....or 2022? Whichever comes first? At the best of times, Ovie was an offensive luxury that has already declined and will get worse. What you will get is a guy sitting at the blueline waiting for his next breakaway and hoping we win that 8-7 game. Find someone else that I can spend some dream time on cup parades......
|
|
|
Post by duster on Aug 5, 2014 17:00:51 GMT -5
There was a time Ovechkin did give a damn. It's always possible that he may regain enthusiasm in an obsessive hockey market like Montreal. However, I wouldn't risk it. Getting zapped in the Gomez deal should be lesson enough if I'm Geoff Molson.
That said, the team really needs a upgrade on the wing. Bergevin hasn't made the team better than last year's edition, but simply more expensive. Perhaps an Ovechkin is overkill when all you need is a big guy who can make some room in front of the opponent's net and is hard to budge. Someone like Byfuglien perhaps?
|
|
|
Post by BadCompany on Aug 6, 2014 6:11:51 GMT -5
You guys know that Ovechkin led the league in scoring last year, right? Won the Rocket Richard trophy by eight goals over the second place finisher, 51 to 43?
|
|
|
Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 6, 2014 8:32:53 GMT -5
How coachable is he?
Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by jerry_dog on Aug 6, 2014 9:30:04 GMT -5
How coachable is he? Cheers. I guess we will see an answer to this starting in a couple of months w Barry Trotz at the helm. Also, important in my mind, Andre Markov is Ovie's best buddy / friend in North America and that may be able to sway something if it becomes MB's chosen path.
|
|
|
Post by stoat on Aug 6, 2014 10:03:53 GMT -5
How coachable is he? Cheers. I guess we will see an answer to this starting in a couple of months w Barry Trotz at the helm. Also, important in my mind, Andre Markov is Ovie's best buddy / friend in North America and that may be able to sway something if it becomes MB's chosen path. That Ovechkin-Markov nexus was mentioned several years ago but no one took the rumor of his coming here seriously.
|
|
|
Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Aug 6, 2014 10:15:26 GMT -5
You guys know that Ovechkin led the league in scoring last year, right? Won the Rocket Richard trophy by eight goals over the second place finisher, 51 to 43? Short term cap hit causes problems. Long term cap hit will cripple the team with an expensive old man.
|
|
|
Post by BadCompany on Aug 6, 2014 11:21:55 GMT -5
You guys know that Ovechkin led the league in scoring last year, right? Won the Rocket Richard trophy by eight goals over the second place finisher, 51 to 43? Short term cap hit causes problems. Long term cap hit will cripple the team with an expensive old man. We couldn't get him for the upcoming season, but with a little luck we'd have ten million in cap space for the 2015-16 season, which would fit him in quite nicely. So short term shouldn't be a problem, if things fall the way I think they will. Long term Ovechkin's contract runs out when he is 36. Getting up there, but it's not one of those cap-circumventing deals that would take him into his 40s. He wouldn't be all that old.
|
|
|
Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 6, 2014 11:51:06 GMT -5
I guess we will see an answer to this starting in a couple of months w Barry Trotz at the helm. Also, important in my mind, Andre Markov is Ovie's best buddy / friend in North America and that may be able to sway something if it becomes MB's chosen path. That Ovechkin-Markov nexus was mentioned several years ago but no one took the rumor of his coming here seriously. I don't know, guys ... I looked over Ovechkin's playoff stats and they're actually pretty good ... I just can't get by the knocks on this guy ... last year his coach called him out for giving up on a back-check that led to a goal ... he was benched in Sochi ... I just see a lot of drama with this guy, is all ... Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by CentreHice on Aug 6, 2014 12:05:27 GMT -5
Landing a 30-year-old Ovechkin for a legit 2015-16 run would be akin, in theory, to Pollock getting a 32-year-old Frank Mahovlich in 1971.
Both perennial scoring stars of their era…neither shy to instigate rough play.…the perfect piece for a bona fide contender.
Yeah, you'd likely get some Kovalevesque capricious play out of Ovie, but you're more likely to get Subbanesque enthusiasm, which means points, points, points in a player with such skills. Plus…Ovie will most definitely still be chasing his Cup dream, with time somewhat running out.
Won't be easy/cheap to acquire. I'm sure Pollock had his critics in giving up Mickey Redmond and 2 checking forwards...but all criticism quickly turned to claims of genius as The Big M was more than instrumental in the 71 and 73 Championships.
I'm getting to the point now where if Berg does it…it's okay with me. He's human, he'll make mistakes….but as long as his astute decisions far outweigh the errant, that's all we can ask for.
|
|
|
Post by franko on Aug 6, 2014 14:45:34 GMT -5
I don't know, guys ... I looked over Ovechkin's playoff stats and they're actually pretty good ... Briere 79 points, 39 PPP, -35. are we going to count on our power play to pull us through again? not so sure . . .
|
|
|
Post by stoat on Aug 6, 2014 16:51:53 GMT -5
Plekanec did not have the most productive wings on his line yet managed to score 20 goals. That's pretty good, don't you think? Oh I like Plekanec. If they didn't (subconsuciously, unwrittenly) change the rules for the Selke trophy, he'd be a shoe in almost every year. But if you are going to acquire a 9.5 million dollar offensive threat, you have to trade something. Would Washington want Desharnais? I really don't see it. In the best of worlds, we keep Plekanec and Eller, and Galchenyuk is our first line center in training camp ... but this is Newfoundland, not Disneyland, as my mother would tell me when I asked for too much. If such as trade is to be made that involves Plekanec, then I think it should be made this year. Next year his value drops at the start of the year, but will rise again at the deadline, when teams will take a chance at a rental who will be gone when the season is over. What you say is reasonable. I wish the Habs had a younger version of him to take his place as a two-way player. In looking at the recent draft picks I can't think of any. Some fans suggest Eller, but who could step in to take Eller's place?
|
|
|
Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Aug 6, 2014 17:24:06 GMT -5
Short term cap hit causes problems. Long term cap hit will cripple the team with an expensive old man. We couldn't get him for the upcoming season, but with a little luck we'd have ten million in cap space for the 2015-16 season, which would fit him in quite nicely. So short term shouldn't be a problem, if things fall the way I think they will. Long term Ovechkin's contract runs out when he is 36. Getting up there, but it's not one of those cap-circumventing deals that would take him into his 40s. He wouldn't be all that old. Thanks for the clarification. One of the biggest changes in the new post cap NHL is that veterans with big salaries are not as important to a team as young guys on entry level contracts. Gretzky is the greatest player that ever lived, but his production dropped off markedly as he aged. Keeping at 92 goals a year is impossible but Crosby's production is dropping too. Briere was once a great scorer as was Lecavalier. Now they are boat anchors getting released by team after team. I fully expect Ovie to have a great year but in 5 more years I'm not so sure. Mahovlich's production never matched Mickey Redmonds but, yes, we won the cup. Fearless prediction: Cleveland will not win a title with Lebron's return. Expect declining production as his best years are behind him. Miami came close this year but as Monica Lewinsky says, "no cigar." LA and Anaheim have good young teams without Chicago's cap problems. Watch for good things from Pacioretty and Subban. Gallagher is valuable for his enthusiasm, production and low cap impact. Pleks is highly paid but is also a good all round player. With Tinordi and Beaulieu replacing ageing pieces we will be strong on "D" with Price stopping what comes through. I watch a lot of UCLA football and each year we sweat that our best players graduated and the team will be weaker. Truth is the young guys on the team all improve and the Hab's youngsters will improve too. The older guys who couldn't improve are gone.
|
|
|
Post by stoat on Oct 12, 2014 12:20:42 GMT -5
We see now that Bergevin really has been very good.
|
|