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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 23, 2014 20:47:19 GMT -5
The only thing I can add to this conversation is that I don't think Subban is one of those types who sign big only to coast for several years. He appears to be the type who PROVES his salary. He's doing that now, yes ... but I don't think he was proving enough for the money he was asking back when Bergevin offered the bridge contract ... I honestly thought PK had a lot of growing up to do ... he made a lot of stupid mistakes as our best player ... granted, he provided the offence, but sitting out the first few games of the season showed me that he was bigger than the club ... but, man, this guy has not only stepped up to the plate, he's knocked it out of the park ... yet, while he may feel he's worth a lot, I'd ask if he sees and understands the big picture, and whether he wants to be a part of that for a long time ... I don't have a crystal ball, but I suspect if Bergevin pays what Subban feels he's worth, then we might see another contract on the way out of Montreal ... Plekanec? ... and it may very well be as BC suggests in that, the Subban camp feels there are bigger paydays ahead if they go mid-term ... the bridge contract probably showed them that light, eh ... who knew? ... seriously, who really knew? ... PK has come a long way in a very short time ... and he backed it up ... Cheers.
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Post by habsorbed on Jul 24, 2014 0:46:33 GMT -5
It's very difficult to take sides on this issue without knowing what positions the two sides are taking. When I saw the Eller numbers it help put things in perspective; especially when on the same day Krieder signs with the Rags for similar money. Would i trade Eller for Krieder? Tough call. Eller can be tough around the net but haven't seen him eliminate any goalies from competition What i don't like about this arbitration process is that the player always goes high and the team low balls. I've always thought that in any arbitration you get the most fair offers when the arbitrator must take one or the other proposal. This forces both sides to make reasonable and legitimate offers. Back to PK, I love the guy and want him to be a Hab forever. BUT i can't pass judgment on this dispute until i know what position both sides are taking. If PK is asking for more than $10 then he's being unreasonable and putting himself ahead of the team. If MB is offering $7.5 or even 8 then I think he is lowballing PK. What MB has to remember is that PK can find his $$$ with other Cup contenders. Not so sure MB can find other Norris winners/candidates or fair trade value. If it's a million separating the parties then MB should pony up and trim some fat: Bourque, Moen, Pleks. Getting rid of Pleks may solve both the PK problem and the AGal to centre problem.
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Post by GNick99 on Jul 24, 2014 5:40:44 GMT -5
Only way I would trade Subban is if another team offered up something crazy. Chance this could happen as he is charismatic and entertaining. He'd be ideal for a team wanting to increase interest among its fanbase.
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Post by frozone on Jul 24, 2014 8:47:02 GMT -5
It's very difficult to take sides on this issue without knowing what positions the two sides are taking. When I saw the Eller numbers it help put things in perspective; especially when on the same day Krieder signs with the Rags for similar money. Would i trade Eller for Krieder? Tough call. Eller can be tough around the net but haven't seen him eliminate any goalies from competition What i don't like about this arbitration process is that the player always goes high and the team low balls. I've always thought that in any arbitration you get the most fair offers when the arbitrator must take one or the other proposal. This forces both sides to make reasonable and legitimate offers. Back to PK, I love the guy and want him to be a Hab forever. BUT i can't pass judgment on this dispute until i know what position both sides are taking. If PK is asking for more than $10 then he's being unreasonable and putting himself ahead of the team. If MB is offering $7.5 or even 8 then I think he is lowballing PK. What MB has to remember is that PK can find his $$$ with other Cup contenders. Not so sure MB can find other Norris winners/candidates or fair trade value. If it's a million separating the parties then MB should pony up and trim some fat: Bourque, Moen, Pleks. Getting rid of Pleks may solve both the PK problem and the AGal to centre problem. Good post, but I don't think PK is being selfish if he asks for more than $10. Imo, he's only being selfish if he refuses to take the take his cap hit into consideration. There's plenty of ways to give him the money that he wants while keeping the cap hit as low as possible. In 2014-2015, there will be at least 9 players earning $10+, and none of them have a cap hit higher than 9.5 (Ovechkin/Malkin). Granted, some of these contracts were signed under a different CBA, but there are still tools available for lowering cap hits. Considering that there are thousands of different ways this contract can be drawn up, it doesn't surprise me that this negotiation is taking so long. But I will be surprised, and disappointed, if his cap hit is in the 9.5 range.
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Jul 24, 2014 10:23:06 GMT -5
I could see the scenario where PK only wants a short term deal that will pay max dollars now but also let him capitalize on a higher cap later. It will also allow PK to move to a city like NY or LA that better fits his personality and could increase his endorsements with a company like Nike or subbing for ESPN.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 24, 2014 11:43:22 GMT -5
I could see the scenario where PK only wants a short term deal that will pay max dollars now but also let him capitalize on a higher cap later. It will also allow PK to move to a city like NY or LA that better fits his personality and could increase his endorsements with a company like Nike or subbing for ESPN. Imagine PK in New York ... He's already the toast of Montreal ... Subban on Broadway ... Cheers.
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Post by jkr on Jul 24, 2014 12:06:24 GMT -5
I could see the scenario where PK only wants a short term deal that will pay max dollars now but also let him capitalize on a higher cap later. It will also allow PK to move to a city like NY or LA that better fits his personality and could increase his endorsements with a company like Nike or subbing for ESPN. Does the city you live in really have an effect on your endorsement potential now? Living in Pittsburgh, hardly the centre of anything, doesn't keep Crosby from getting his share of deals. I think it depends more on the person & their marketibilty than where they live or work.
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Post by franko on Jul 24, 2014 12:15:06 GMT -5
Imagine PK in New York ... He's already the toast of Montreal ... Subban on Broadway ... can you say . . . distraction?
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Jul 24, 2014 13:27:49 GMT -5
I could see the scenario where PK only wants a short term deal that will pay max dollars now but also let him capitalize on a higher cap later. It will also allow PK to move to a city like NY or LA that better fits his personality and could increase his endorsements with a company like Nike or subbing for ESPN. Does the city you live in really have an effect on your endorsement potential now? Living in Pittsburgh, hardly the centre of anything, doesn't keep Crosby from getting his share of deals. I think it depends more on the person & their marketibilty than where they live or work. I would agree in most US cities but playing in a Canadian city I think it still makes a difference. I picked NY and LA because they are the biggest markets and PK has a big personality that he would probably thrive in those cities. Also if you were a struggling team at the gate (Panthers/Hurricanes for example) and you could add a superstar in his prime that can be the face of your team, speaks well so there is no language barriers he could be the saviour of your franchise to sell tickets and increase marketability you would open the vault. No difference than what Crosby did in Pittsburgh or Stamkos in Tampa have done.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jul 24, 2014 13:57:31 GMT -5
I could see the scenario where PK only wants a short term deal that will pay max dollars now but also let him capitalize on a higher cap later. It will also allow PK to move to a city like NY or LA that better fits his personality and could increase his endorsements with a company like Nike or subbing for ESPN. Does the city you live in really have an effect on your endorsement potential now? Living in Pittsburgh, hardly the centre of anything, doesn't keep Crosby from getting his share of deals. I think it depends more on the person & their marketibilty than where they live or work. Not sure I agree. When Gretzky moved from Edmonton to LA he changed from a very good player in a semi obscure sport in some city near the Arctic Circle to the Greatest Player who ever lived coming to LOS Angeles. I'm not saying it is right but to many in LA and the US that was the apparent image. He quadrupled the amount of publicity, not just in Canadian publications but also in People, Time, LA Times, New York post. Living in LA I read more in the LA times about the Los Alamitos High School football program than about the Montreal Canadiens and PK. HabsRus posters search for hockey related articles so we don't represent the overall US sports market consumer. LA doesn't have an NFL team but there is no shortage of football with UCLA and USC, hockey 3 teams in California vs 1 in Quebec, Basketball, Golf, surfing, volleyball, track, auto racing, rodeo etc. I think PK would sell a lot more hamburgers, cars, toothpaste, ovaltine, tickets and personal appearances here. Late night appearances, theatre openings, seats on the floor at Lakers games. Montreal is a lot more focused on PK than they are on Stamkos. The reverse is true too in the US.
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Post by Skilly on Jul 24, 2014 14:08:11 GMT -5
So I guess we now know what Bergevin is willing to pay PK Subban. If he is only offering $1.65 million to Eller, then he is willing to go up to 10 million with Subban. I am almost at direct polar opposites to that line of evaluating. I think Eller more than deserves around 2.5 million, and I'd slot PK in around 7.5 to 8 million.
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Post by Skilly on Jul 24, 2014 14:09:48 GMT -5
It's very difficult to take sides on this issue without knowing what positions the two sides are taking. When I saw the Eller numbers it help put things in perspective; especially when on the same day Krieder signs with the Rags for similar money. Would i trade Eller for Krieder? Tough call. Eller can be tough around the net but haven't seen him eliminate any goalies from competition What i don't like about this arbitration process is that the player always goes high and the team low balls. I've always thought that in any arbitration you get the most fair offers when the arbitrator must take one or the other proposal. This forces both sides to make reasonable and legitimate offers. Back to PK, I love the guy and want him to be a Hab forever. BUT i can't pass judgment on this dispute until i know what position both sides are taking. If PK is asking for more than $10 then he's being unreasonable and putting himself ahead of the team. If MB is offering $7.5 or even 8 then I think he is lowballing PK. What MB has to remember is that PK can find his $$$ with other Cup contenders. Not so sure MB can find other Norris winners/candidates or fair trade value. If it's a million separating the parties then MB should pony up and trim some fat: Bourque, Moen, Pleks. Getting rid of Pleks may solve both the PK problem and the AGal to centre problem. That use to be the old rules ... The new rules the arbitrator can't give lower than 85% of the past salary. And can only award a one or two year deal.
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Post by stoat on Jul 24, 2014 14:55:17 GMT -5
Signing Subban would improve the Ranger's chances of winning the Cup but it wouldn't add to their profits. They'd have to increase merchandise sales quite a bit to meet Subban's salary demands. Also, did anyone consider what acquiring Subban would do to its cap?
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Post by Willie Dog on Jul 24, 2014 15:11:30 GMT -5
Imo PK in a major US market, NY, LA or Chicago, is the NHLs dream. He's bright articulate charismatic and he's a minority that the NHL would love to use to drastically improve their demographics in the US. Hockey can't get anymore popular in canada but PK could boost it in the US.
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 24, 2014 15:15:48 GMT -5
Fine, then ship him to a US team...and a huge return package for us.
I care about the Habs, a cup......and PK if and ONLY if he is a Hab. The moment PK is playing on another team, I don't give a damn about him.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 24, 2014 17:06:10 GMT -5
Imagine PK in New York ... He's already the toast of Montreal ... Subban on Broadway ... can you say . . . distraction? Sure ... Okay ... No worries ... Probably the same distractions he has in Montreal ... toast of the town ... Superstar-in-rent-a-car ... Das wunderkind ... Cheers.
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Post by franko on Jul 24, 2014 18:45:47 GMT -5
can you say . . . distraction? Sure ... Okay ... No worries ... Probably the same distractions he has in Montreal ... toast of the town ... Superstar-in-rent-a-car ... Das wunderkind ... Cheers. actually I was thinking the bright lights would distract him and his play would tail off.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 24, 2014 19:17:26 GMT -5
Sure ... Okay ... No worries ... Probably the same distractions he has in Montreal ... toast of the town ... Superstar-in-rent-a-car ... Das wunderkind ... Cheers. actually I was thinking the bright lights would distract him and his play would tail off. I'm thinking any contract north of $9/10 mil/year might do that ... Cheers.
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Post by Polarice on Jul 25, 2014 13:29:25 GMT -5
FWIW....PK arrived in Montreal this morning.
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Post by habsorbed on Jul 25, 2014 14:24:32 GMT -5
FWIW....PK arrived in Montreal this morning. Saturday is always a good day for an announcement of a long term deal for a superstar!!!
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jul 25, 2014 14:36:09 GMT -5
FWIW....PK arrived in Montreal this morning. Saturday is always a good day for an announcement of a long term deal for a superstar!!! It is important to remember that NOBODY wants to trade PK unless there is a huge compelling return or there is an impass negotiating a contract and a risk of losing him for nothing. He is not without his faults and his strengths are numerous and excellent. Plus Shot, hits, puck carrying, offence, pp, charisma, agitator Minus Decision making, mistakes
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 26, 2014 14:25:39 GMT -5
And Saturday came and went.......
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 26, 2014 14:33:10 GMT -5
Saturday is always a good day for an announcement of a long term deal for a superstar!!! It is important to remember that NOBODY wants to trade PK unless there is a huge compelling return or there is an impass negotiating a contract and a risk of losing him for nothing. He is not without his faults and his strengths are numerous and excellent. Plus Shot, hits, puck carrying, offence, pp, charisma, agitator Minus Decision making, mistakes Nobody? Speak for yourself. I would trade him in a heartbeat if the return was greater the his value. Perhaps Florida wants a player to sell to minorities? Send us Ekblad, Barkov and Gudbranson, they can have PK. Pollock NEVER cared about anything but winning cups and building a perennial contender. Neither do I.
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Post by jkr on Jul 26, 2014 14:57:43 GMT -5
It is important to remember that NOBODY wants to trade PK unless there is a huge compelling return or there is an impass negotiating a contract and a risk of losing him for nothing. He is not without his faults and his strengths are numerous and excellent. Plus Shot, hits, puck carrying, offence, pp, charisma, agitator Minus Decision making, mistakes Nobody? Speak for yourself. I would trade him in a heartbeat if the return was greater the his value. Perhaps Florida wants a player to sell to minorities? Send us Ekblad, Barkov and Gudbranson, they can have PK. Pollock NEVER cared about anything but winning cups and building a perennial contender. Neither do I. Pollock traded for the best guy in the deal. He didn't trade him away.
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 26, 2014 17:01:50 GMT -5
Nobody? Speak for yourself. I would trade him in a heartbeat if the return was greater the his value. Perhaps Florida wants a player to sell to minorities? Send us Ekblad, Barkov and Gudbranson, they can have PK. Pollock NEVER cared about anything but winning cups and building a perennial contender. Neither do I. Pollock traded for the best guy in the deal. He didn't trade him away. Nope. Pollock traded players for picks (Desjardin). Picks for picks or picks and players. He even traded players if he thought it would make that team better so he could draft higher with the pick he had. As long as he thought it would help the team, nobody was "safe".
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Post by jkr on Jul 26, 2014 17:21:44 GMT -5
Pollock traded for the best guy in the deal. He didn't trade him away. Nope. Pollock traded players for picks (Desjardin). Picks for picks or picks and players. He even traded players if he thought it would make that team better so he could draft higher with the pick he had. As long as he thought it would help the team, nobody was "safe". Which Desjardin are you talking about? If it's Eric he was drafted in 1987 & traded by Serge Savard. I went through Pollock's deals & I don't see one where he dealt the guy who is obviously the best player on his team. www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_GM/Sam_Pollock/10/1
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Post by jkr on Jul 26, 2014 20:04:10 GMT -5
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jul 27, 2014 1:05:03 GMT -5
It is important to remember that NOBODY wants to trade PK unless there is a huge compelling return or there is an impass negotiating a contract and a risk of losing him for nothing. He is not without his faults and his strengths are numerous and excellent. Plus Shot, hits, puck carrying, offence, pp, charisma, agitator Minus Decision making, mistakes Nobody? Speak for yourself. I would trade him in a heartbeat if the return was greater the his value. Perhaps Florida wants a player to sell to minorities? Send us Ekblad, Barkov and Gudbranson, they can have PK. Pollock NEVER cared about anything but winning cups and building a perennial contender. Neither do I. I think we said the same thing?
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 27, 2014 1:48:23 GMT -5
Nope. Pollock traded players for picks (Desjardin). Picks for picks or picks and players. He even traded players if he thought it would make that team better so he could draft higher with the pick he had. As long as he thought it would help the team, nobody was "safe". Which Desjardin are you talking about? If it's Eric he was drafted in 1987 & traded by Serge Savard. I went through Pollock's deals & I don't see one where he dealt the guy who is obviously the best player on his team. www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_GM/Sam_Pollock/10/1Gerry Desjardin.....for picks. www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=1340He traded Backstrom to LA for a bag of pucks just to make sure LA finished ahead of Seals so he can draft first.....Lafleur. On occasion he traded for the best guy, but mostly, his trades were asset management, strategic and long term. Lafleur, Napier, Shutt, Carbonneau, Robinson, etc, were from trading and drafting. Only the Frank Mahovlich clearly the better player in a many for one deal. Pete Mahovelich had scored a handfull of goals over four seasons with Detroit before he played great for the Habs. The Dryden trade was for his rights and unproven. Asset management and a keen eye. Bottom line, Pollock cared about one thing and one thing only. Winning. Everybody was a chess piece to that. If Pollock was running the show now and he was offered a great package for PK from Florida, PK would be packing his swim thong.
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 27, 2014 2:34:58 GMT -5
Nobody? Speak for yourself. I would trade him in a heartbeat if the return was greater the his value. Perhaps Florida wants a player to sell to minorities? Send us Ekblad, Barkov and Gudbranson, they can have PK. Pollock NEVER cared about anything but winning cups and building a perennial contender. Neither do I. I think we said the same thing? Yes we did. I misread your post and I thought you said if it was only an impass. Heck, PK value may never be higher and if some GM is stupid enough, trading him would bring 2 or 3 pieces of top 2 and top 3 that land us perennial contenders. Look at the return when the Avs traded Lindros. Forsberg was equal value but the Avs got a kings ransom.
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