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Post by jkr on Aug 1, 2014 15:04:36 GMT -5
The sooner the better. It's far, far too risky to think that there is hope and wait.........until he is worth nothing to us. Especially if tensions mount over the course of the season because of the negotiations/settlement. What a predicament. It certainly hasn't helped matters that MT entered the scene having been a harsh critic of PK's play 3 years ago on RDS. Usually the taking heads/ bloggers/etc are divided on these issues. But not this one. Every one I've read/heard is united on one thing - Bergevin effed this up big time. Now the entire league knows you don't think he's not worth that much to you. How do you get full value now. How they could not have seen this coming indicates one thing - the people running this team are not that smart. Even fans of other teams thing we're idiots.
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Post by seventeen on Aug 1, 2014 15:14:08 GMT -5
So let's say PK does the simple math that I'm used to (avoiding actuarial tables). If PK gets $8.5 per year for the next two years and 10+ for the next 6. That makes $77MM over 8 years =$9.625 per year. Assuming CAP goes up 5% per year that's an average CAP over the next 8 years of $85.5MM. PK's salary takes up 11.25% of that CAP. How does that compare to the other elite players in the league, assuming you're going to place PK in that category? That's probably a best case scenario. I'm skeptical that the CAP will go up that much given the economic state in the world. But these numbers at least give us a basis on which to consider who was asking for too much. The key questions are...How much will the CAP change? and just how good is PK in relation to the stars of the game. Would you trade PK for Toews, Crosby, Doughty, Kane? I'm picking the best young players to keep the age somewhat similar. Here's a good one? would you trade PK for Ryan McDonagh even up? I might. It would be close. It the "+" that worries me .... That 77 million is a minimum in your calculation.. I don't see the CAP ever reaching 101.9 million either; that would mean the floor would be in the 70+ million range. There is no way some markets can reach that, even in 8 years time I agree. I was taking the most optimistic view from PK's standpoint. In other words, if he expects $10MM when he's a UFA, anyone paying that will be foolish as it will hamstring their chances of icing a competitive team. Berg's paid Briere $4MM, he's paying Eller over $3MM before he's proved anything, he's paying Emelin $4MM. He has not show a lack of trust with any of these guys (not to mention DD's contract which we thought was silly overpaying). Why would he suddenly apply a different standard to PK? I don't think he is, but PK's idea of what he's worth must be a certain amount over what Berg feels he can afford to pay him.
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Post by UberCranky on Aug 1, 2014 15:23:09 GMT -5
Why would he suddenly apply a different standard to PK? I don't think he is, but PK's idea of what he's worth must be a certain amount over what Berg feels he can afford to pay him. That's the logic of it. If MB pays others well, then how exactly is he 'screwing it up" if we don't know what PK wants?
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Post by CentreHice on Aug 1, 2014 16:13:56 GMT -5
Especially if tensions mount over the course of the season because of the negotiations/settlement. What a predicament. It certainly hasn't helped matters that MT entered the scene having been a harsh critic of PK's play 3 years ago on RDS. Usually the taking heads/ bloggers/etc are divided on these issues. But not this one. Every one I've read/heard is united on one thing - Bergevin effed this up big time. Now the entire league knows you don't think he's not worth that much to you. How do you get full value now. How they could not have seen this coming indicates one thing - the people running this team are not that smart. Even fans of other teams thing we're idiots. I don't think it's that bad. Other fans want us to fail. Until we know what PK was asking and for how long….no one can say with any certainty where the fault lies. One thing's for sure….the circus is back in town.
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Post by jkr on Aug 1, 2014 16:21:48 GMT -5
Usually the taking heads/ bloggers/etc are divided on these issues. But not this one. Every one I've read/heard is united on one thing - Bergevin effed this up big time. Now the entire league knows you don't think he's not worth that much to you. How do you get full value now. How they could not have seen this coming indicates one thing - the people running this team are not that smart. Even fans of other teams thing we're idiots. I don't think it's that bad. Other fans want us to fail. Until we know what PK was asking and for how long….no one can say with any certainty where the fault lies. One thing's for sure….the circus is back in town. On the discussion boards I've seen fans of other teams just don't get this. They don't understand why the team has such a contentious relationship with their best player. As for the commentators - they seem unanimous in their disdain for the Habs approach.
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Post by franko on Aug 1, 2014 16:27:34 GMT -5
so here's SI's take: Okay, Habs fans. Feel free to press the panic button now.
That last-minute resolution of the long simmering contract dispute between the Canadiens and star defenseman P.K. Subban that we all expected early on Friday morning? It didn't happen. Instead, the two sides opted to air out their differences in front of an independent arbitrator, a process that ensures that the 2013 Norris Trophy winner will be in bleu, blanc et rouge for the 2014–15 season.
But at what cost?
It isn't the salary that really matters at this point. Given Subban's resume, and the assumption that the arbitrator is seemingly more rational than Montreal GM Marc Bergevin, the blueliner is going to get paid. A lot. Probably something north of $7 million per year.
But even that kind of money might not be enough to repair whatever damage was caused over the course of today's hearing. We don't know yet what was said behind closed doors, but whatever it was, it sounds like it cut deep.
"It's been an educational process for me," a subdued Subban told reporters as he left the room.
Not too hard to crack that code, is it? You don't value the "educational process" after a courteous exchange of ideas. It's the blanket you console yourself with after you've just been crushed.
"I will move on and get ready for the season," he said. Again, you don't "move on" from an experience that leaves you feeling valued and respected. It's what you do after you pick up the pieces.here
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Post by CentreHice on Aug 1, 2014 16:31:02 GMT -5
I don't think it's that bad. Other fans want us to fail. Until we know what PK was asking and for how long….no one can say with any certainty where the fault lies. One thing's for sure….the circus is back in town. On the discussion boards I've seen fans of other teams just don't get this. They don't understand why the team has such a contentious relationship with their best player. As for the commentators - they seem unanimous in their disdain for the Habs approach. If they aren't privy to the figures/terms being negotiated, then I don't bother with the talking heads. If PK's asking for the solar system, then MB has to try to bring him back to our planet. If MB's low-balling….that's a different story. Ah….24-hour sports media.
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Post by CentreHice on Aug 1, 2014 16:35:25 GMT -5
so here's SI's take: Okay, Habs fans. Feel free to press the panic button now.
But even that kind of money might not be enough to repair whatever damage was caused over the course of today's hearing. We don't know yet what was said behind closed doors, but whatever it was, it sounds like it cut deep.
"It's been an educational process for me," a subdued Subban told reporters as he left the room.
Not too hard to crack that code, is it? You don't value the "educational process" after a courteous exchange of ideas. It's the blanket you console yourself with after you've just been crushed.
"I will move on and get ready for the season," he said. Again, you don't "move on" from an experience that leaves you feeling valued and respected. It's what you do after you pick up the pieces.[http://www.si.com/nhl/2014/08/01/pk-subban-arbitration-hearing-results-reaction] more[/url] Painting Bergevin as the villain. Very premature, IMO. I wouldn't be so quick to jump to all these conclusions. But I'm not trying to get traffic to my site.
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Post by jkr on Aug 1, 2014 16:39:46 GMT -5
so here's SI's take: Okay, Habs fans. Feel free to press the panic button now.
But even that kind of money might not be enough to repair whatever damage was caused over the course of today's hearing. We don't know yet what was said behind closed doors, but whatever it was, it sounds like it cut deep.
"It's been an educational process for me," a subdued Subban told reporters as he left the room.
Not too hard to crack that code, is it? You don't value the "educational process" after a courteous exchange of ideas. It's the blanket you console yourself with after you've just been crushed.
"I will move on and get ready for the season," he said. Again, you don't "move on" from an experience that leaves you feeling valued and respected. It's what you do after you pick up the pieces.[http://www.si.com/nhl/2014/08/01/pk-subban-arbitration-hearing-results-reaction] more[/url] Painting Bergevin as the villain. Very premature, IMO. I wouldn't be so quick to jump to all these conclusions. But I'm not trying to get traffic to my site. [/quote] CNN/SI don't have to worry so much about site traffic. They aren't Hockeybuzz. Everything I've heard says arbitration is a bruising process for the player & I doubt this was no difference - except for the fact that this is their best player. We've seen him lit up on 24CH & it probably happened again today.
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Post by christrpn on Aug 1, 2014 16:49:36 GMT -5
[/url] Painting Bergevin as the villain. Very premature, IMO. I wouldn't be so quick to jump to all these conclusions. But I'm not trying to get traffic to my site. [/quote] CNN/SI don't have to worry so much about site traffic. They aren't Hockeybuzz. Everything I've heard says arbitration is a bruising process for the player & I doubt this was no difference - except for the fact that this is their best player. We've seen him lit up on 24CH & it probably happened again today.[/quote] No offense to PK but he knew that going into the process. He could have held out like Doughty and signed a long term deal at the beginning of the season. MB won't go into arbitration praising Subban. He has faults, they got exposed today and he probably didn't like what he heard. All that is said behind closed doors from players to coach and from coach to GM got aired out in front of him. This was all his choice
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Post by CentreHice on Aug 1, 2014 16:52:30 GMT -5
I'm not denying that Subban is a generational player.
I'm not doubting that arbitration can be quite a blow to a player's ego.
But we have to trust Bergevin somewhat, don't we?
There MUST be something else at work here.
We've all seen Subban mess up, get reprimanded, then argue with coaches….or coaches have had to go and calm him down.
There's a line between ego/self-confidence and thinking you're above criticism/teaching, no?
That's what was likely brought out in front of him today.
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Post by Willie Dog on Aug 1, 2014 17:40:29 GMT -5
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Post by Cranky on Aug 1, 2014 17:47:13 GMT -5
If she rules on 5.75m then MB can turn this into a huge win. Simply bring Subban in and "reject" this in favour of a long term contract.
There very little left here other then some "us against them" scenario. On the other hand, Meehen will make sure it's all about the money.
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Post by seventeen on Aug 1, 2014 19:51:13 GMT -5
I understand she can choose any number between the two. That's why they're so far apart. The team isn't going to go high and the player is not going to go low.
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Post by GNick99 on Aug 1, 2014 23:51:12 GMT -5
I predict long term contract signed just before arbitration meeting. Starting at 7 million, going up each year reaching 10 million in year 8. I'm too pessimistic to believe that. He'll take his one year award & still have all the cards next year. And I think this lowers any trade value he has. Would you give up significant assets for a player in this situation - knowing that he could be gone in a year or two? Kind of surprised by how this has gone....Habs were quick and open with the pocket book to lock up other stars like Price or Pacioretty. But they nickel and dime Subban?
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Aug 2, 2014 1:49:50 GMT -5
I'm too pessimistic to believe that. He'll take his one year award & still have all the cards next year. And I think this lowers any trade value he has. Would you give up significant assets for a player in this situation - knowing that he could be gone in a year or two? Kind of surprised by how this has gone....Habs were quick and open with the pocket book to lock up other stars like Price or Pacioretty. But they nickel and dime Subban? I would love someone to nickel and dime me with a $6 million dollar contract.
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Post by seventeen on Aug 2, 2014 2:42:45 GMT -5
Kind of surprised by how this has gone....Habs were quick and open with the pocket book to lock up other stars like Price or Pacioretty. But they nickel and dime Subban? I would love someone to nickel and dime me with a $6 million dollar contract. That's the puzzling part, Gnick. Did they truly nickel and dime PK, or did they approach this contract the same way they approached Price, Pacioretty, Eller etc? Seems odd to suddenly change your style for one particular player. Which makes me think the issue is more with the player than with the team. All along there's been a certain consistency and suddenly it doesn't work? Knowing PK's ego and confidence, I suspect he's not happy with what is probably a reasonable offer. Perhaps it's because he and his agent have different opinions on where the CAP is going than do the Habs. Remember, it's Bergevin's job to produce a winner, not to make PK the best paid defenseman in the NHL. If the two coincide, fine, but the key component is the winning, not PK's happiness. PK is full of confidence, which is a good thing, but often that kind of person has a very high opinion of themselves, and it's not always realistic. I've hear PK's skating described as fast, and he isn't. He has average or just slightly above average speed. He's very strong on his skates and he turns well, but on top end speed, he's just not exceptional. How many times have you seen him try to enter a zone and have to turn back because he doesn't have that extra gear to get past the checker? I've noticed that a lot. I like PK. I like his game and I like his attitude. But he's not Drew Doughty and he's not Alex Pietrangelo. He doesn't have their speed. He has double their confidence and double their ego, though. I'd pay him what they're earning, allowing for a higher cap and Quebec's tax situation, but I don't think that comes in above $9mm a year or even much above $8MM a year. Or it could be Bergevin nickel and diming. If we knew the numbers thrown about, we'd have a better idea, but right now we're all just guessing and basing our thoughts on who we like better today, PK or Berg.
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Post by UberCranky on Aug 2, 2014 4:01:45 GMT -5
Expect the unexpected.......
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Post by GNick99 on Aug 2, 2014 4:02:59 GMT -5
I would love someone to nickel and dime me with a $6 million dollar contract. That's the puzzling part, Gnick. Did they truly nickel and dime PK, or did they approach this contract the same way they approached Price, Pacioretty, Eller etc? Seems odd to suddenly change your style for one particular player. Which makes me think the issue is more with the player than with the team. All along there's been a certain consistency and suddenly it doesn't work? Knowing PK's ego and confidence, I suspect he's not happy with what is probably a reasonable offer. Perhaps it's because he and his agent have different opinions on where the CAP is going than do the Habs. Remember, it's Bergevin's job to produce a winner, not to make PK the best paid defenseman in the NHL. If the two coincide, fine, but the key component is the winning, not PK's happiness. PK is full of confidence, which is a good thing, but often that kind of person has a very high opinion of themselves, and it's not always realistic. I've hear PK's skating described as fast, and he isn't. He has average or just slightly above average speed. He's very strong on his skates and he turns well, but on top end speed, he's just not exceptional. How many times have you seen him try to enter a zone and have to turn back because he doesn't have that extra gear to get past the checker? I've noticed that a lot. I like PK. I like his game and I like his attitude. But he's not Drew Doughty and he's not Alex Pietrangelo. He doesn't have their speed. He has double their confidence and double their ego, though. I'd pay him what they're earning, allowing for a higher cap and Quebec's tax situation, but I don't think that comes in above $9mm a year or even much above $8MM a year. Or it could be Bergevin nickel and diming. If we knew the numbers thrown about, we'd have a better idea, but right now we're all just guessing and basing our thoughts on who we like better today, PK or Berg. I can't imagine them not wanting Subban locked up long term. But there is definitely something wrong. None of our other stars had to go thru this, from hold-outs, to bridge contracts to arbritration. Bergs even over paid to sign lesser players like Elemin, Desharnais. Other teams lock up their stars. We have plenty caproom. It's puzzling!
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Aug 2, 2014 5:16:00 GMT -5
I think if it was 7.5 or 8 per year for 8 years then MB would have this long done. It comes back to Meehan but ultimately PK wanting both max dollars and terms, his cake and eat it too. Bergevin did not underpay any of his other players and in some cases the critics here have said he overpaid so I think to say nickle and diming him is a silly comment.
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Post by jkr on Aug 2, 2014 6:29:51 GMT -5
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Post by Boston_Habs on Aug 2, 2014 9:05:43 GMT -5
I would love someone to nickel and dime me with a $6 million dollar contract. That's the puzzling part, Gnick. Did they truly nickel and dime PK, or did they approach this contract the same way they approached Price, Pacioretty, Eller etc? Seems odd to suddenly change your style for one particular player. Or it could be Bergevin nickel and diming. If we knew the numbers thrown about, we'd have a better idea, but right now we're all just guessing and basing our thoughts on who we like better today, PK or Berg. I think the fact that they treated PK the same is the problem. Some players are special and you make exceptions for guys like that. Subban is probably the most talented dman we've had in Montreal since Larry Robinson, an elite player, a guy who can change the game and step up in big moments. He's more important than Price. Ad you said we just don't know who the unreasonable party is, but where there is smoke.... The Habs have taken a consistent approach with Subban, which is to keep him on a short leash contract wise, even talking down his talent by saying he still has stuff to learn and Therrien messing with his ice time. Of course all that went out the window in the playoffs when PK was again the best player in the ice, and now here we are again with management somehow screwing with its franchise player. I thought they should have dealt with this 2 years ago. He was a Norris trophy talent already, s anyone really shocked that he won the Norris 2 years ago? He was elite an elite guy back then and I just don't think management has earned the benefit of the doubt when you look at how they have handled PK from the beginning. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe he's looking for a $10 million cap hit and that just too much right now, but if the Habs are offering less than $9 million then this is on them. And I'm happy with a 5 year deal as well that gives PK another shot at a mega contract in his prime. I hate 8 year deals. Too much risk. A 5 year deal would keep this core together. If the Habs are going to win a title in the Price/Subban era, its going to be in the next 3-5 years.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Aug 2, 2014 9:15:20 GMT -5
I am less concerned than I was. PK will be motivated to prove how good he really is and what he deserves. If he has another Norris year we either sign him or trade him when his value is highest and his contract is attractive to other teams in need so a superstar. He is my favorite player on the team, but the team comes first. He is not an easy player to deal with.
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Post by jkr on Aug 2, 2014 9:52:04 GMT -5
That's the puzzling part, Gnick. Did they truly nickel and dime PK, or did they approach this contract the same way they approached Price, Pacioretty, Eller etc? Seems odd to suddenly change your style for one particular player. Or it could be Bergevin nickel and diming. If we knew the numbers thrown about, we'd have a better idea, but right now we're all just guessing and basing our thoughts on who we like better today, PK or Berg. I think the fact that they treated PK the same is the problem. Some players are special and you make exceptions for guys like that. Subban is probably the most talented dman we've had in Montreal since Larry Robinson, an elite player, a guy who can change the game and step up in big moments. He's more important than Price. Ad you said we just don't know who the unreasonable party is, but where there is smoke.... The Habs have taken a consistent approach with Subban, which is to keep him on a short leash contract wise, even talking down his talent by saying he still has stuff to learn and Therrien messing with his ice time. Of course all that went out the window in the playoffs when PK was again the best player in the ice, and now here we are again with management somehow screwing with its franchise player. I thought they should have dealt with this 2 years ago. He was a Norris trophy talent already, s anyone really shocked that he won the Norris 2 years ago? He was elite an elite guy back then and I just don't think management has earned the benefit of the doubt when you look at how they have handled PK from the beginning. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe he's looking for a $10 million cap hit and that just too much right now, but if the Habs are offering less than $9 million then this is on them. And I'm happy with a 5 year deal as well that gives PK another shot at a mega contract in his prime. I hate 8 year deals. Too much risk. A 5 year deal would keep this core together. If the Habs are going to win a title in the Price/Subban era, its going to be in the next 3-5 years. It took a long time but I have come around to your way of thinking on the bridge deal. If they couldn't have foreseen this situation then that really concerns me. PK bounced back from the holdout & the bridge deal & had a Norris winning season. I expect him to bounce back from this & play well this year. It only can be of benefit for him. He seems to get "special" treatment ( & I don't mean that in a good way) from the team & it puzzles me. Stars are treated differently & anyone that doesn't think so is naive. I'm not sure about bridges being burned. Weber is still in Nashville long term. I'm sure there are other players who can listen to a cold assessment of their play & move forward. It's not that personal I hope. I think Subban & other players can take a lesson from Lebron James. After he went to Miami the Cavs owner launched a blistering personal attack on him & left it on the team web site for 4 years. James comes out of this looking like the better person for being able to get past that & rejoin Cleveland.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 2, 2014 9:53:44 GMT -5
No, I still think Berg made poor use of his leverage 2 years ago. His problem he has no leverage now. PK has it all and he's using it. He did, but I find it's too easy to say in hindsight ... I, for one, figured he's be a big star in the league but not this quickly ... I thought the bridge contract was a good idea at the time and from what I read, that process drew a lot of attention from several of Berg's peers ... I also thought it could have worked had PK not won his Norris and had a strong playoff ... as it is now, I think it's possible other teams/GMs are learning quite a bit from this whole process ... how it could work in your favour or how it can blow up in your face ... Cheers.
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Post by Gogie on Aug 2, 2014 10:16:26 GMT -5
I wasn't worried in the beginning. I was absolutely sure a long term contract would be signed. Now I'm very worried. TSN reporting this AM that the two sides were more than $3 million apart in their negotiations. If this is just a regurgitation of the arbitration amounts, then that's one thing, but TSN is suggesting it's a difference between what Bergivin is prepared to offer long term and what PK wants. If that's the case (TSN suggesting Bergevin wants to give PK Price-type money) than we're in big trouble. That suggests Bergevin's not even offering $7m per year. That's too big a gap. This could get really ugly.
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Post by jkr on Aug 2, 2014 11:03:48 GMT -5
I wasn't worried in the beginning. I was absolutely sure a long term contract would be signed. Now I'm very worried. TSN reporting this AM that the two sides were more than $3 million apart in their negotiations. If this is just a regurgitation of the arbitration amounts, then that's one thing, but TSN is suggesting it's a difference between what Bergivin is prepared to offer long term and what PK wants. If that's the case (TSN suggesting Bergevin wants to give PK Price-type money) than we're in big trouble. That suggests Bergevin's not even offering $7m per year. That's too big a gap. This could get really ugly. I think the 3 million difference is in the arbitration numbers. I don't see how TSN could know anything else.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 2, 2014 11:23:18 GMT -5
Chris Johnston reports " PK Subban says no deal was reached today. Arbitrator will decide his contract for next season. 'We have to live with those decisions'." I'd sure like to know what was being bid and offered. If it was $9MM, I think Berg's made a mistake. Might as well start the "What can we get for PK?" thread. I'm disappointed in both sides for not being able to get the deal done ... I keep reading about his ego ... then I read it's about Meehan controlling the process ... reading a lot of support for Bergevin and I'm also reading a lot of drama and a lot of panic ... I'm hoping he gets fair market value ... PK deserves no more/less than other players who are/were in this situation ... Cheers.
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Post by jkr on Aug 2, 2014 11:33:55 GMT -5
Chris Johnston reports " PK Subban says no deal was reached today. Arbitrator will decide his contract for next season. 'We have to live with those decisions'." I'd sure like to know what was being bid and offered. If it was $9MM, I think Berg's made a mistake. Might as well start the "What can we get for PK?" thread. I'm disappointed in both sides for not being able to get the deal done ... I keep reading about his ego ... then I read it's about Meehan controlling the process ... reading a lot of support for Bergevin and I'm also reading a lot of drama and a lot of panic ... I'm hoping he gets fair market value ... PK deserves no more/less than other players who are/were in this situation ... Cheers. Meehan works for Subban so the ultimate decisions rest with PK.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 2, 2014 12:02:11 GMT -5
I don't think it's that bad. Other fans want us to fail. Until we know what PK was asking and for how long….no one can say with any certainty where the fault lies. One thing's for sure….the circus is back in town. On the discussion boards I've seen fans of other teams just don't get this. They don't understand why the team has such a contentious relationship with their best player. As for the commentators - they seem unanimous in their disdain for the Habs approach. I was in Toronto yesterday and the guy taking Bob Gowan's place pointed out just how poor a defensive defenseman PK is ... callers agreed that PK has proven little other than his offensive talents, which gave him his Norris ... I suspect the "contentious relationship" you referred to will continue to be a sideshow between Therrien and Subban this year, if only to prove some point ... I don't know, maybe he's only worth $5.25 million/year, after all ... maybe he doesn't command the same respect that all-around defensive juggernaut, Dion Phaneuf, does ... I hope PK gets fair market value, no more/less ... there's an amount of panic on the boards right now and that will be nothing if PK wins another Norris ... somehow, though, I think Therrien will know how to undermine that ... under him, I really think PK will continue to be a dart board (until the playoffs start, I guess) ... odd, but I thought the drama went out the door with Gauthier ... I suspect the drama to continue while PK is in Montreal ... Cheers.
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