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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 11, 2014 11:38:54 GMT -5
Kind of an interesting development. Here's a cut and paste from Jack Todd's column.: ... Geoff Molson might have had the toughest call of the summer. Molson’s Canadiens are flying pretty high these days, what with a playoff run that took them into the Eastern Conference final, but Molson had to step in and make the decision to sign P.K. Subban to an eight-year, $72-million contract.
A highly place source has confirmed our theory that it was indeed Molson who overruled GM Marc Bergevin, when it appeared that the club might be saddled with a single-year arbitration contract and a disgruntled star. It was Molson’s call to sign P.K. long-term and it was exactly right.
Which doesn’t mean Bergevin was wrong. Both men were doing their jobs: Bergevin’s task is to make an evaluation based on his salary cap and his evaluation of a player’s performance. Molson has to take the wider view and consider factors like fan-base reaction that really aren’t Bergevin’s problem.Cheers.
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Post by jkr on Aug 11, 2014 12:27:06 GMT -5
Todd is speculating. Do we take him at his word that he has a highly placed source?
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Post by Polarice on Aug 11, 2014 12:30:10 GMT -5
I think it was wide known that Molson stepped in at the last minute to salvage a deal. MB was doing what he had to do, he has a set budget to work with, anything beyond that Molson has to approve. Really didn't need an article from Todd to tell us this.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 11, 2014 12:45:43 GMT -5
I'm not sure about the wide-known reference you made, Reap ... I never knew about this and if Molson did intervene, then why wasn't it discussed here on the boards ... JKR, I don't know if Todd actually had a "theory" beforehand, so I took that part of the story as iffy ... wouldn't be the first time someone has used this as a vehicle for self promotion whether it be a news scoop, a blog, what have you ...
Cheers.
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Post by franko on Aug 11, 2014 13:07:03 GMT -5
I think there was a sniff of a suggestion about it, Dis. My question is "how does MB perceive it"? Further (OK, it's 2 questions) "Does MB have -- or senses he has -- the full support of the owner"?. or is this going to be another Charles Wang/Francesco Aquilini situation.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 11, 2014 13:36:24 GMT -5
I think there was a sniff of a suggestion about it, Dis. My question is "how does MB perceive it"? Further (OK, it's 2 questions) "Does MB have -- or senses he has -- the full support of the owner"?. or is this going to be another Charles Wang/Francesco Aquilini situation. I'm wondering if Geoff Molson was influenced by previous failures to land a bonafide superstar in Montreal for all those years of mediocrity ... Subban wants to be a legend in Montreal and Molson probably wants to see that, too ... that new contract is a nice start ... fingers crossed he can prove Molson right ... Cheers.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Aug 11, 2014 13:37:33 GMT -5
I think there was a sniff of a suggestion about it, Dis. My question is "how does MB perceive it"? Further (OK, it's 2 questions) "Does MB have -- or senses he has -- the full support of the owner"?. or is this going to be another Charles Wang/Francesco Aquilini situation. Spot on Franco. Is MB the GM or is he Molson's secretary? One big deal won't bring down the house of cards, but if Subban doesn't get enough ice time does he go to Molson to complain?
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Post by franko on Aug 11, 2014 13:40:00 GMT -5
I think there was a sniff of a suggestion about it, Dis. My question is "how does MB perceive it"? Further (OK, it's 2 questions) "Does MB have -- or senses he has -- the full support of the owner"?. or is this going to be another Charles Wang/Francesco Aquilini situation. Spot on Franco. Is MB the GM or is he Molson's secretary? One big deal won't bring down the house of cards, but if Subban doesn't get enough ice time does he go to Molson to complain? it certainly has the beginnings of an interesting year. please please please . . . no Leafy drama!
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Post by jkr on Aug 11, 2014 14:03:08 GMT -5
I think it was wide known that Molson stepped in at the last minute to salvage a deal. MB was doing what he had to do, he has a set budget to work with, anything beyond that Molson has to approve. Really didn't need an article from Todd to tell us this. This. If Molson stepped in this is the first time anyone has ever mentioned it. I'm sure Bergevin has a lot of autonomy but this was an exraordinary situation. I don't seea pattern of Molson interfering.
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Post by Polarice on Aug 11, 2014 14:16:20 GMT -5
I'm not sure about the wide-known reference you made, Reap ... I never knew about this and if Molson did intervene, then why wasn't it discussed here on the boards ... JKR, I don't know if Todd actually had a "theory" beforehand, so I took that part of the story as iffy ... wouldn't be the first time someone has used this as a vehicle for self promotion whether it be a news scoop, a blog, what have you ... Cheers. I've heard it a few times on the different sport shows. I don't personally think Molson Stepped in uninvited, I believe if anything MB went to him.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 11, 2014 14:30:46 GMT -5
I'm not sure about the wide-known reference you made, Reap ... I never knew about this and if Molson did intervene, then why wasn't it discussed here on the boards ... JKR, I don't know if Todd actually had a "theory" beforehand, so I took that part of the story as iffy ... wouldn't be the first time someone has used this as a vehicle for self promotion whether it be a news scoop, a blog, what have you ... Cheers. I've heard it a few times on the different sport shows. I don't personally think Molson Stepped in uninvited, I believe if anything MB went to him. Right on, buds. Cheers.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Aug 11, 2014 14:32:22 GMT -5
Subban himself said that Molson was key in the negotiations... Bergevin is a nice guy and all but this is his first GM experience… I think it is absolutely normal that the owner and president was monitoring such an important situation very closely and stepped in when his GM appeared unable to get a deal done… Bergevin is a competitive guy, maybe at some point winning the negotiations became more important than getting a deal done… so a cool head had to prevail.
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Post by CentreHice on Aug 11, 2014 14:35:28 GMT -5
The owner/board/whatever usually has to OK expenditures of such a magnitude. Molson gave it the green light. No big story here. Create that drama, Todd.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Aug 11, 2014 14:43:42 GMT -5
I think we have to remind ourselves that Geoff Molson is not just the money guy behind the scene (à la George Gillett), Geoff Molson is the team president… You would think it is absolutely normal that he was closely involved in this.
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Post by Willie Dog on Aug 11, 2014 14:56:37 GMT -5
I think we have to remind ourselves that Geoff Molson is not just the money guy behind the scene (à la George Gillett), Geoff Molson is the team president… You would think it is absolutely normal that he was closely involved in this. I agee doc. MB probably had a limit he could go to (which was probably 8×7 imo) and molson stepped in to approve the extra 2 mill per year. I also think they felt the arbitration hearing did not go their way.
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Post by habsask on Aug 11, 2014 15:40:06 GMT -5
I'm not sure about the wide-known reference you made, Reap ... I never knew about this and if Molson did intervene, then why wasn't it discussed here on the boards ... JKR, I don't know if Todd actually had a "theory" beforehand, so I took that part of the story as iffy ... wouldn't be the first time someone has used this as a vehicle for self promotion whether it be a news scoop, a blog, what have you ... Cheers. I've heard it a few times on the different sport shows. I don't personally think Molson Stepped in uninvited, I believe if anything MB went to him. Todd wrote an article that was in the 3 Aug Gazette in which he outlined his theory that Molson stepped in. As far as whether Todd now has a source I would believe he does - whether that source is accurate is another matter. I certainly can understand Molson making this call and as has been mentioned Bergevin himself might well have gone to Molson with something of this magnitude- We're talking about a lot of the bosses money here. I hope that the latter was the case as that would mean that Bergevin has planned for Suban's salary & its impact on the Habs Cap situation for the future. If Molson imposed the signing on him then that would make me a bit nervous as that might mean that Suban's contract could have screwed up Bergevin's mid to long term plans on his team's Cap structure. We shall see. Cheers
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Post by seventeen on Aug 11, 2014 16:01:55 GMT -5
It's absolutely standard operating procedure in business for certain positions to have certain limits. Berg would have known going in exactly how high he could go (like an agent at an auction). Above that, someone with a higher pay grade has to approve. If Berg was disappointed/annoyed/ticked off, it was probably because PK didn't accept that highest offer, which would have been based on his hockey skills. What it does to Berg is put him under pressure to produce a winner, with fewer resources than he would have had. I would be surprised, but not shocked, if PK was traded within the next 2 year window. Berg may carry a grudge, or he'll take it as a fact of life and move on. It has to rankle, though, as I think we've all agreed, it's overpayment and PK got away with this one. If the right offer came along, and it would have to be a low risk, high return offer, I'd seriously consider moving PK, but then again, I'd do that in the case of any player. Price as well.
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Post by GNick99 on Aug 11, 2014 16:24:09 GMT -5
Owner should never over rule his GM
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Post by Willie Dog on Aug 11, 2014 17:01:27 GMT -5
Owner should never over rule his GM I can't agree with that. It's Molsons money. If MB was not going to meet PK's demand and the arbitrator rules then imo PK is gone and Molson has lost a world class player and spokesman for the team and league. As an owner you let your management team do what they need to do but the owner is responsible for everything and as such has a responsibity to act in the teams best interest.
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Post by christrpn on Aug 11, 2014 17:17:59 GMT -5
Owner should never over rule his GM I can't agree with that. It's Molsons money. If MB was not going to meet PK's demand and the arbitrator rules then imo PK is gone and Molson has lost a world class player and spokesman for the team and league. As an owner you let your management team do what they need to do but the owner is responsible for everything and as such has a responsibity to act in the teams best interest. So who takes the blame here if PK becomes a Phaneuf? If Molson was afraid of the public reaction and forced MB to sign PK to this deal, that means he is letting fan emotion make the decisions. Great, PK is here for 8yrs, Molson won't make more money, he can't sell more tickets. He has the TV deals and the Canadiens will not make any more money with PK in the lineup than if he wasn't. Problem is that the amount MIGHT hinder MB's ability to give this incredible talent support. Habs were not a big scorer last year and PK was there all yr. Time will tell, but I hope this was all MB, that way' if it goes sour, we know who to blame and he can be replaced. Can't replace a nosy owner.
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Post by UberCranky on Aug 11, 2014 17:36:35 GMT -5
If the story is that Molson stepped in and saved the day, it's garbage. No GM runs around signing 72 million dollar contracts without the owners direct input.....throughout the process.
Another thing.....no GM or owner is going to leak out that the owner was the white night that stepped in to save the day. That story would instantly render said GM into a eunic.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 11, 2014 17:40:28 GMT -5
I think we have to remind ourselves that Geoff Molson is not just the money guy behind the scene (à la George Gillett), Geoff Molson is the team president… You would think it is absolutely normal that he was closely involved in this. The Montreal camp would be incomplete without the president, I think, anyway ... and without actually knowing what's going on, I can't see Molson holding back on Bergevin and then pulling the rug out from underneath him ... it's like Harper and his Chief of Staff there's no way they could be on different pages going into arbitration, not if they're a successful business team ... don't know exactly what his source told him but it wouldn't be a good business practice if Bergevin was caught unawares ... I think Subban even thanked Molson and Bergevin by name at one point ... Cheers.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Aug 11, 2014 18:29:16 GMT -5
I think we have to remind ourselves that Geoff Molson is not just the money guy behind the scene (à la George Gillett), Geoff Molson is the team president… You would think it is absolutely normal that he was closely involved in this. The Montreal camp would be incomplete without the president, I think, anyway ... and without actually knowing what's going on, I can't see Molson holding back on Bergevin and then pulling the rug out from underneath him ... it's like Harper and his Chief of Staff there's no way they could be on different pages going into arbitration, not if they're a successful business team ... don't know exactly what his source told him but it wouldn't be a good business practice if Bergevin was caught unawares ... I think Subban even thanked Molson and Bergevin by name at one point ... Cheers. Maybe we are reading more into this than there really is. The Owner/President must discuss this regularly with the General Manager, especially with as important a decision as this one was. MB explained his position to Geoff Molson, his rationale and logic going forward. MB explained PK's demands and intransigence. MB explained the impact to the team and numerous other considerations. Molson holds the purse strings, final decision, financial impact, legal considerations, potential free agent actions, trades, ticket sales and pricing, beer sales and condos. In the end, all MB can do is give Molson sage advice and council and advice about the on ice product. The final decision rests with Molson and MB has done his job well. THe scouts gave Gainey their advice and Gainey made the final choice at the draft table. Many times I made my recommendations to my management. When they followed my advice I was pleased. When I was overruled, I pouted for a short time and accepted their decision and moved on. Nothing personal.
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Post by stoat on Aug 11, 2014 20:57:59 GMT -5
There are two plausible motives for owning a sports franchise: 1) The prospect of making a lot of money and 2) ego gratification.
Molson considered the amount of money the Habs would have to pay Subban to remain vs.) the loss of an opportunity to be the big man on campus.
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Post by seventeen on Aug 11, 2014 23:54:23 GMT -5
If the story is that Molson stepped in and saved the day, it's garbage. No GM runs around signing 72 million dollar contracts without the owners direct input.....throughout the process. Another thing.....no GM or owner is going to leak out that the owner was the white night that stepped in to save the day. That story would instantly render said GM into a eunic. Exactly. Bergevin and Molson are not amateurs. It's just the way things are done. Bergevin goes back, explains all to Molson, they debate it for a while and Bergevin gives his recommendation, but Molson makes the decision. As a good employee, Bergevin carries out the decision and life moves on. It might annoy Bergevin, if his recommendation was other than to accept PK's terms, but he knows who pays his salary and lives with it.
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Post by UberCranky on Aug 12, 2014 2:17:10 GMT -5
If the story is that Molson stepped in and saved the day, it's garbage. No GM runs around signing 72 million dollar contracts without the owners direct input.....throughout the process. Another thing.....no GM or owner is going to leak out that the owner was the white night that stepped in to save the day. That story would instantly render said GM into a eunuch. Exactly. Bergevin and Molson are not amateurs. It's just the way things are done. Bergevin goes back, explains all to Molson, they debate it for a while and Bergevin gives his recommendation, but Molson makes the decision. As a good employee, Bergevin carries out the decision and life moves on. It might annoy Bergevin, if his recommendation was other than to accept PK's terms, but he knows who pays his salary and lives with it. Your a banker, I'm a businessman.....but the business world sounds a lot sexier if there are white knights with last minute "saves" then grinding out mostly frustrating but always mundane negotiations....of offers.....study/analysis....counter offers.....study/analysis.....counter offer......rinse and repeat. For months on end.
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Post by UberCranky on Aug 12, 2014 2:19:05 GMT -5
Owner should never over rule his GM A GM never makes a decision to spend money without the CFO/CEO/owners consent/approval/overview.
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Post by BadCompany on Aug 12, 2014 7:17:08 GMT -5
Well of course Molson was involved. Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. Aside from it being his money, he's also a very hands-on owner, and quite aware what is going on with his team. He was at the freaking arbitration hearing, for goodness sake! This idea that Bergevin and Molson weren't doing this together is ludicrous, and its sensationalism in its finest to suggest that Molson "had to step in". He was already up to his neck in it. Personally, I think the whole story is muck-raking. If anything, I would say that MOLSON was the one who didn't want to give Subban the money. It isn't his money after all why would Bergevin care? He has the cap room now and in the future. Wasn't Molson rumored to be one of the hard-liners during the last lockout? Molson may have a lot of money, and the Habs are certainly a cash-cow, but Molson doesn't have as much money as everyone else, and he leveraged himself pretty good to buy the team. Is it not unreasonable to think that Molson himself had a budget, only to have his eyes opened in the arbitration hearing? At which point he "stepped in" and told Bergevin to get the deal done? Just as plausible, no? EDIT: As an aside, I think we've accorded WAY too much importance and/or intelligence to this whole process. I think it was just a tough negotiation. And that's it. I don't think either side felt snubbed, or disrespected, or insulted, or embarrassed, or <insert adverb here>. It was just a tough negotiation that took place TWO YEARS before Subban was in any danger of leaving. We're just starved for hockey talk, is all.
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Post by habsask on Aug 12, 2014 12:58:06 GMT -5
Well of course Molson was involved. Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. Aside from it being his money, he's also a very hands-on owner, and quite aware what is going on with his team. He was at the freaking arbitration hearing, for goodness sake! This idea that Bergevin and Molson weren't doing this together is ludicrous, and its sensationalism in its finest to suggest that Molson "had to step in". He was already up to his neck in it. Personally, I think the whole story is muck-raking. If anything, I would say that MOLSON was the one who didn't want to give Subban the money. It isn't his money after all why would Bergevin care? He has the cap room now and in the future. Wasn't Molson rumored to be one of the hard-liners during the last lockout? Molson may have a lot of money, and the Habs are certainly a cash-cow, but Molson doesn't have as much money as everyone else, and he leveraged himself pretty good to buy the team. Is it not unreasonable to think that Molson himself had a budget, only to have his eyes opened in the arbitration hearing? At which point he "stepped in" and told Bergevin to get the deal done? Just as plausible, no? EDIT: As an aside, I think we've accorded WAY too much importance and/or intelligence to this whole process. I think it was just a tough negotiation. And that's it. I don't think either side felt snubbed, or disrespected, or insulted, or embarrassed, or <insert adverb here>. It was just a tough negotiation that took place TWO YEARS before Subban was in any danger of leaving. We're just starved for hockey talk, is all.I think your Edit comment hits the nail on the head Bad Co.
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Post by HFTO on Aug 12, 2014 16:57:07 GMT -5
Regardless of what is speculated to have happened or not happened Molson would have the final say with those types of dollars involved. The only thing I am curious about is the strategy taken by MB? There was a long term deal on the table but they only submitted 5.25 for a one year deal in the arbitration,not sure I get that when they surely know or would have had to have had substantially more $ in the deal on the long term offer Regardless it's done now lets worry about getting more fire power and these kid D men in the fold and win a damn cup!
HFTO
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