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Post by UberCranky on Oct 4, 2014 1:54:36 GMT -5
Wasn't Subban fighting a scrub so exciting? What could possibly go wrong with one of the top defenseman in the world and the difference between making the playoffs and early golf? And what about that Patches? Wasn't it just as much fun watching a 40 goal scorer getting punched by a goon? Almost laughed through the entire thing as i wondered.....a broken wrist, a concussion, a broken orbital bone, which will it be? Just sooooo funny!
Of course, they were not targets, nope, after all, who needs those two of the thrre most valuable, indispensible players on the team!
Yes Sir! Who needs a stinking ubergoon when there is nothing but a season at risk!
Keep on punching PK and Patches......
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Post by Lord Bebop on Oct 4, 2014 7:19:15 GMT -5
Im upset over last night just like you, but I'm not sure a goon sitting on the bench would make any difference. Our problem is that any player we have that will play any meaningful minutes are soft. Our defence is soft. Our top 9 forwards our soft. Not going to change for a while..... Got to wait til Tinordi McCarron or Crisp or even Nevins , Thrower, Lernout, Kobersstein to arrive. We need toughness and we need it coming from more then one guy and we need them playing real minutes imo
I've been a pro goon guy for a long time..... I've changed this way of thinking over the years watching our players getting roughed up while our tough guys sat on the bench watching. Then you think way back when we had Corson, Ludwig, Chelios, Lemieux, McPhee, Kordic.... that was team toughness and besides Kordic they actually played a good game. I'm thinking that is the way our management is working, that's the team they want.
Bergeron has set us on the right path but he came 20 years to late...... Now we need to wait and see how our kids turn out and see if we can pepper some toughness throughout the lineup.
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Post by sergejean on Oct 4, 2014 7:56:29 GMT -5
Im upset over last night just like you, but I'm not sure a goon sitting on the bench would make any difference. Our problem is that any player we have that will play any meaningful minutes are soft. Our defence is soft. Our top 9 forwards our soft. Not going to change for a while..... Got to wait til Tinordi McCarron or Crisp or even Nevins , Thrower, Lernout, Kobersstein to arrive. We need toughness and we need it coming from more then one guy playing real minutes imo I've been a pro goon guy for a long time..... I've changed this way of thinking over the years watching our players getting roughed up while our tough guys sat on the bench watching. Then you think way back when we had Corson, Ludwig, Chelios, Lemieux, McPhee, Kordic.... Guys who actually play. I'm thinking that is the way our management is working, that's the team they want. Bergeron has set us on the right path but he came 20 years to late...... Now we need to wait and see how our kids turn out and see if we can pepper some toughness throughout the lineup. With the way our line-up is layed out we have not much other choice but to use the recipe that has proven to be successful against the Boouins and apply it to the such of Laffs and Hens. Agitate them, stick work them, hit them good when they're the least expecting it and... Turn away when the whistle blows. As long as we don't engage in scrums after the whistle and keep playing a gritty in your face brand of hockey, we'll be fine.
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Post by Psycorp on Oct 4, 2014 8:36:57 GMT -5
The fact is, none of those kind of shenanigans happened last year...why? Parros was a factor to a lesser extent but the main one was Murray. Despite being a bad hockey player, he was an excellent intimidation factor, clearing the front of the net with autority and threatening to rip player's heads. Once again, Prust will be alone against the world. Tinordi just doesn't have the the same presence and was a big dissapointment last night. The future looks bright with McCarron, Crisp, Nevins and Lernout coming up as intimidation factors who can play but in the meantime, we do need a goon.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Oct 4, 2014 9:41:55 GMT -5
...I think Weise, Prust and Tinner can handle most of the fist work if need be with the bonus that they actually can play hockey. Pax and Subban showing that they won't be indimidated is not a bad thing... you don't want that happening on a regular basis obviously but at the same it shows character and leadership... I don't think a goon changes anything last night... Neil was obviously instructed to go at Pacioretty and Subban decided to jump in the mix... it was our 5 best men unit there if we had a goon he would have been on the bench anyway. There is only one thing to do IMO, tomorrow Therrien has to send Prust on Karlsson and Tinner on Ryan...
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Post by Tankdriver on Oct 4, 2014 10:44:57 GMT -5
Exactly. You can't help it when your five best players get beat up on the ice, but you can definitely send a message on the next shift when your guys go after their stars. Eye for an eye! Boy do I sound like Cherry there.
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 4, 2014 11:06:21 GMT -5
Just one of the Groundhog Day elements of our team.
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Post by Polarice on Oct 4, 2014 11:23:04 GMT -5
Biznasty is just sitting around waiting!!
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Post by habsorbed on Oct 4, 2014 11:30:54 GMT -5
Great thread! After watching the hi-lights last night I couldn't help thinking we have a serious problem (still) and was going to start a thread.
Max and PK fighting is simply unacceptable. We do not need our $9 million man injuring his hand on some AHL goons helmet in a nothing exhibition game. DUMB. While MT and others are all saying the right things and being supportive publicly of PK, i can only assume MB, MT and even Molson are pulling PK aside and saying never again. The more PK engages i n this behaviour the more teams will go after him. It is a win win for the opposition. Maybe get PK injured but certainly get him off the ice for 5 or more. DUMB.
As for the rest of the Habs. Can anyone see Doughty, Karlsson, Letang, Keith, etc involved in this sort of skirmish? Simply wouldn't happen. The coach and team-mates would respond and immediately. But nada for the Habs.
I see 3 possible solutions:
1) PK and Max and others should adopt the Kessel response: swing the lumber at the opponent and swing it hard!
2) The Habs should announce that none of their players will engage in fighting and will not drop the gloves. If they do they will be suspended by the team. If the league isn't going to address this juvenile neanderthal practice of fighting, the Habs should show the way. Yes it's self-serving as we simply don't have the weapons but it may also work to our advantage. Everyone would know, in particular the refs, to watch the other team and start applying the rule of penalizing players who drop gloves. The Habs play hockey and play it well. We do not get engaged in this obscene WWE crap; or
3) Get some muscle that can also play hockey. Unfortunately we have failed in that for two decades now.
I like option 2. Let's change the game and leave Don Cherry and his ilk/elk irrelevant!
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Post by seventeen on Oct 4, 2014 12:05:01 GMT -5
Many of the great players in the game have had to endure their moments of standing up and being counted. The year after Jean Beliveau broke out, he had 143 PIM. He was being tested to see if they could throw him off his game. Eventually, that treatment went away. It was a different game then, agreed, but some tactics never change. If you can intimidate someone to stop them scoring, especially if you can use a nobody to do it, then that makes good sense. I'd do it.
Good to see both Patches and PK stand up to the goons. As always the way to really beat them is to get some PP's and score on them. Turn it into a failed strategy.
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Post by habsorbed on Oct 4, 2014 12:15:48 GMT -5
Hard to score on the PP when your 2 best players are in the box. PK wants to go with Karlsson- bring it on. But not their goon.
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Post by frozone on Oct 4, 2014 12:39:27 GMT -5
I dunno, guys. I'm pretty proud of our young, skilled leaders. Granted, you never want to see them engage in this kind of thing especially in pre-season, but they had their gloves dropped against 417 pims combined in 2013-14. Ottawa's goons tried to beat up our skilled guys and they couldn't really do it.
I don't mind Max and PK getting into this as long as they're smart about it, and that's what worries me... as young leaders, have they learned how to balance standing up for your teammates vs avoiding fights? I think they could use a veteran leader more than a goon.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Oct 4, 2014 12:47:11 GMT -5
...I think Weise, Prust and Tinner can handle most of the fist work if need be with the bonus that they actually can play hockey. Pax and Subban showing that they won't be indimidated is not a bad thing... you don't want that happening on a regular basis obviously but at the same it shows character and leadership... I don't think a goon changes anything last night... Neil was obviously instructed to go at Pacioretty and Subban decided to jump in the mix... it was our 5 best men unit there if we had a goon he would have been on the bench anyway. There is only one thing to do IMO, tomorrow Therrien has to send Prust on Karlsson and Tinner on Ryan... I thought the Neil/Pacioretty tiff had Paul MacLean written all over it ... I didn't see what happened with Subban but I dare say he found out that scrubs are capable of putting them up, too ... I thought he could have walked away from it at one point but he pushed the point and he may actually made that scrub look better in camp than he probably was ... still learning, I guess (sigh) ... sending Prust and Tinner out would be an appropriate, if not entertaining, response ... would be worth it just to see the reaction of Sens fans on Facebook ... they're always the victims ... have a house full of people here tonight and I'm hoping no one is offended with the game on the main TV ... Cheers.
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Post by habsorbed on Oct 4, 2014 13:08:24 GMT -5
They're going to get in the odd fight. But stay in their weight class. Should only dance with a player they have a chance of beating and preferably one that is equally skilled so it's an equal loss for both teams. The fat bug eyed walrus will take last night's trade off every time. We lose all around. I'm betting Karlsson doesn't dress tonight. And if he does I know he ain't fighting Prust, Tinordi or anyone else. Pretty boy's a lover not a fighter
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Post by UberCranky on Oct 4, 2014 13:29:42 GMT -5
Our ubergoon tunes-up Neil badly and there isn't a single Hen laying an egg near PK or Patches.
There is a Absolute Law of Bullying.....a bully is always afraid of a bigger bully. Neil would not drop his gloves against John Scott. Period. But he certainly will go after Patches or PK. So you tune him up early and repeatedly. the rest of the Hens get the message pretty clearly.
As for building character. Really? With a broken orbital bone? Broken wrist? Falling and having a season ender? What exactly is the "fighting smart" when someone is punching them? I like to know now in case I'm reincarnated as a 100 pound weakling.....
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Post by UberCranky on Oct 4, 2014 13:35:22 GMT -5
Enjoy the image...relish it...imagine it on every Hab save a couple.....
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Post by UberCranky on Oct 4, 2014 13:45:10 GMT -5
Exactly. You can't help it when your five best players get beat up on the ice, but you can definitely send a message on the next shift when your guys go after their stars. Eye for an eye! Boy do I sound like Cherry there. No you don't. Without anyone having the ability to actually hurt their scrubs, we would land up on the losing end of a fest. Plus it's the ubergoons job to seek and destroy, not Tinordi trying to make the line-up...or Prust with a bad shoulder...
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Post by habsorbed on Oct 4, 2014 13:46:14 GMT -5
That photo sums it up. Can you imagine if you exchanged the #76 for #87, #91, #8. Would never happen without the benches clearing and the league laying down the law. There is something very wrong here!
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Post by seventeen on Oct 4, 2014 14:21:19 GMT -5
I like to know now in case I'm reincarnated as a 100 pound weakling..... 100 lbs? Jeeze, how short will you be then?
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Post by UberCranky on Oct 4, 2014 14:31:11 GMT -5
I like to know now in case I'm reincarnated as a 100 pound weakling..... 100 lbs? Jeeze, how short will you be then? [sic]What do you have against short people? Huh? Have you ever tossed one? Huh? [/sic] (ten Hail Marry's in my future)
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Post by del on Oct 4, 2014 14:34:17 GMT -5
The times they are a'changing. We are starting to rise above the mediocre teams that have been iced by past mgmt's. We are in possession of budding stars or even elite players that simply weren't there before and other teams have taken notice because now there is something to notice. We may not have needed an enforcer in the past years but we certainly do need one now. Pacs, Subban, Price AGal, as well very good support players rising up the ladder now need some sort of protection. Teams are starting to take liberties eg Krieder taking out Price accidently on purpose - it was a smart move by the Rangers. Last night as a continuation. It will only get worse as the season starts. I do not want the Sens, Leafs and Bruins to start smelling blood.
I agree with everybody that argue we need to have a team that mimics the Hawks and LA and maybe in the future we can have such a team but we don't have anything like them now this moment. One good enforcer can make a statement. I don't like the idea of targeting another teams best players, I think that's stooping to the goon teams level and they will retaliate and out goon us because they have more goons. An enforcer sitting on the bench can't control play on the ice therefore the answer is simply to come back on the culprit in the same period and send the message. I think the deterrent factor will then come into play and while it may not stop the gooning entirely against our team, it could tone it down until our bigger youngsters are ready.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Oct 4, 2014 15:13:45 GMT -5
There is a Absolute Law of Bullying.....a bully is always afraid ... This sums it up right here ... Cheers.
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 4, 2014 15:36:21 GMT -5
If Kreider crashing Price (and the two other times he tried to run Tokarski) isn't enough to get somebody in that vein NOW....then I'm not holding my breath. We'll have to wait for the big boys to develop in the wings...and hope for toughness by committee in the meantime.
The "go there at your peril" days can't come soon enough.
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Post by blny on Oct 4, 2014 15:49:45 GMT -5
It's great to rise above, but the more you rise, the bigger the target on your back. Teams that have inferior talent, and a lack of class, are going to target Subban, Pacioretty, and Price. All year. If Clark MacArthur wants to fight either, for some reason, that's one thing. When one of the league's goons (Neil) and a scrub pick fights with non-fighters it sends a handful of messages.
1. We don't care about any code. We'll take out your best anyway we can.
2. If we can't beat you on the score board, we're going to beat you up.
3. This is what we're going to be like all season. Deal with it.
Weise and Prust are middle weights. Capable, but not deterrents. Tinordi has shown that he's got that edge to his game, but he's not seasoned, it's unclear whether he'll make the team, and I don't like sacrificing defenders for fights. The perfect player for the 13th forward position is that deterrent. He doesn't have to dress every game. He'll be fine with that too. He just needs to be ready for 6 games against Boston, Toronto, and Ottawa. That's it. Those are clearly the teams that are going to go over the line. If he's in on a night that Kreider decides he wants to get in Price's face, fine.
This team isn't far where they want to be. There's talent and skill, and they're all within a few years of one another. In order to be allowed to succeed, part of the plan has to be to surround them with a John Ferguson. The Oilers had guys like Semenko and McSorley cause they knew they needed them to go up against the likes of the Flyers and Flames. Like Ferguson, Semenko could go from zero to psycho in a heart beat and he didn't care if you were a tough guy. If you take a liberty with any of my team mates, I take your head. Simple as that.
It's not pretty. I don't particularly like the idea of having it, but I continue to recognize the need.
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Post by Willie Dog on Oct 4, 2014 16:30:01 GMT -5
This team needs an uber goon who doesnt care. Get a thug from the ahl who is just happy to be on the team, play 2 minutes a game and destroy anyone who needs to be destroyed. This team needs the crazy MT sometimes (remember Zednik Mclaren) not the pussycat version (Price Krieder).
How about Finley. Send boo boo packing and keep Findlay up as the 7th or 8th D. He's the 7th D when we play hens or the laffs
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Post by blny on Oct 4, 2014 16:59:22 GMT -5
What's Todd Ewen doing these days? He's the last psycho we had lol.
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Post by UberCranky on Oct 4, 2014 18:16:34 GMT -5
We can lose Finley on the way down....
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Post by seventeen on Oct 4, 2014 18:36:53 GMT -5
Tpmnight's game is more evidence. We should probably have dressed a mostly Bulldogs line-up, with Finley, Crisp and every other tough guy we have and just pounded on the Senators. For the hell of it. Boredom highsticked Galchy and then Stone again crosschecked Gally in the neck face area. The refs at least are clamping down and calling them, so we've gotten a PP goal to tie it and another PP in progress, but I'd feel a lot better just beating the crap out of them and then giving McLean the royal salute.
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Post by seventeen on Oct 4, 2014 18:41:09 GMT -5
Prust just had to take on Boredumb (I prefer that spelling). BP got the slightly better of it. But we need a heavyweight, so Prust doesn't have to do that and risk injury.
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 4, 2014 18:59:00 GMT -5
In order to be allowed to succeed, part of the plan has to be to surround them with a John Ferguson. The Oilers had guys like Semenko and McSorley cause they knew they needed them to go up against the likes of the Flyers and Flames. Like Ferguson, Semenko could go from zero to psycho in a heart beat and he didn't care if you were a tough guy. If you take a liberty with any of my team mates, I take your head. Simple as that. Many have been calling for such an enforcer for a long time. Difficult to come by. Look at last year....we get into the Semi-Finals and have the wind knocked out of us when Price was taken out. And I sincerely believe Kreider saw his chance and took it...simply because he tried it again with Tokarski. I know Toker played exceptionally well....but I'm convinced Price's injury took a big chunk out of the team's overall confidence and style that got them past Boston. It's not pretty. I don't particularly like the idea of having it, but I continue to recognize the need. Been saying the same thing forever. As long as the league allows it (and it always HAS...so it's going to be staying for some time yet).....you MUST have the ability, not necessarily to instigate...but to answer and ultimately deter. Losing an important player to a freak injury is a difficult pill to swallow, but losing such a player to this BS is negligent. Yes, we've drafted some big, tough boys...but they're still a ways off....and we're still wearing bulls-eyes.
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