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Post by PTH on Nov 22, 2014 14:10:59 GMT -5
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Post by blny on Nov 22, 2014 14:31:01 GMT -5
It doesn't happen every game, but there are instances where Brendan over does it. The game where he scored from behind the net ... immediately before that he had his arm wrapped around the defenders arm as he went down, trying to draw a penalty. The defender was annoyed, lost focus of where the puck was, crosschecked Brendan in the side while he was down. As Brendan gets up, the puck comes to him and he fires it in off the goalie.
We've been on the wrong side of two blatant dives in recent games. Both were penalties against us, taken in late in games with a lead, and on the forecheck in the offensive zone. A one hand sweep of the stick that misses the puck and taps a shin doesn't not take out the players feet. Especially when they fall after the stick has been recoiled.
My point: There are guys leage-wide, on every team, that try and sell it or draw penalties. To single out Gallagher is to suggest that it doesn't exist to the same extent elsewhere and that's just flat out wrong.
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Post by Willie Dog on Nov 22, 2014 15:05:42 GMT -5
I'm glad he said something on tv. Expose the bias and let the refs explain why they do what they do.
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Post by UberCranky on Nov 22, 2014 15:10:28 GMT -5
If the ref told heim that, he should be fired.
That is simply bias that is NOT suppose to be part of the refs decision. To admit it is is to admit that he can not refs properly.
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Post by jkr on Nov 22, 2014 15:23:04 GMT -5
refs in other leagues have to explain themselves. It's about time these morons face the camera.I don't hear Devorski denying it.
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Post by habsorbed on Nov 22, 2014 15:59:12 GMT -5
not sure how smart that is on Gal's part. Burrow's did that a few years ago and it didn't work out well for him. Fact is there is so much discretion with calls and the refs will circle the wagons so things won't be getting any better for Gal going forward.
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Post by seventeen on Nov 22, 2014 16:50:31 GMT -5
not sure how smart that is on Gal's part. Burrow's did that a few years ago and it didn't work out well for him. Fact is there is so much discretion with calls and the refs will circle the wagons so things won't be getting any better for Gal going forward. That's what I'm afraid will happen. Very few people are objective enough to say "Yeah, he's right, I'm assuming he dives all the time and that's wrong". Instead, he'll be telling his buddies, "Gallagher's a jerk. He tore me a new one in public and we're getting him for it". I've played soccer with a couple of guys who were noted for falling a little too easily, especially in the 18 yard box. After a while, they could get assaulted, beaten, flayed, hanged, drawn and quartered anywhere on the pitch and the refs would ignore it. So unless you have the usual incriminating photos, it's best to just say "I have to fight through those checks. The refs may miss the odd call, but they're doing their best and they're right most of the time". Even if the jerks deserve 5 to 10 for their actions. Does anyone think Bettman is actually going to do anything about it?
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Post by Skilly on Nov 22, 2014 16:57:25 GMT -5
I think Brendan and Kerry are both right.
Brendan Gallagher does get treated differently by refs. There is no denying it. There is plenty of supporting evidence. But that's where Marc Bergevin should take a bullet for the team, and say something. Other GMs do it, but our GMs are usually mute to that kind of perceived "whining"
But we are our own worst enemies. Because the reason Gallagher is treated differently is that Kerry Fraser is right when he states PK and Plekanec dive way too much. I've commented on Plekanec antics in last year's playoffs, and I've highlighted some of PKs little antics this year. And it's spreading. I've seen Emelin flop and look for the call and then bury his head like he was shot. It's not a coincidence that the Habs are one of the most penalized teams and draws the fewest penalties. The book is out. We have gone to the embellishment well once too often. Oh it's true, the Habs ARE the worst at it. Just because we like the team doesn't make it any less true. Yes Boston is bad at it too, I agree ... But over the last two years we took it to a whole new level..
Now it could be a product of not getting any PP chances and we try to push the envelope ... But the way to end this train of thought in the refs and Head a Office (because that's where this comes from, not Devorski) is to stop flopping around and just play hard hockey through to the whistle and not worry about what the refs are doing or not doing
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Post by CentreHice on Nov 22, 2014 18:08:34 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure this sequence was sent to every ref's email….i.e. if it's Gallagher…don't call it. Feb. 2/14 Jets 2 Habs 1. The Habs, down by a goal, are trying to tie the game late, with the goalie pulled. There were about 42 seconds left when it began. Gallagher had done nothing out of the ordinary. Montoya was out in front of the blue paint, so Gallagher tried skating between Montoya and the net without interfering. Montoya deliberately skated back and put his glove into Gallagher's face, twice. Valuable seconds ticked off the clock while Wes McCauley then allowed Bogosian to further interfere then trip Gallagher….and another Jet to run into him. With almost any other player, that play is blown dead the second Montoya puts a glove into the face. About 40 seconds to go, 6-on-4, with the faceoff to Montoya's left. Disgusting ref bias against Gallagher that has continued to this day. And for Devorski to admit it….he should be fined/reprimanded…and the public should know about it. ============================================= Gallagher only stated what Devorski told him…..or was he embellishing that, too?
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Post by Disp on Nov 22, 2014 19:09:59 GMT -5
Friedman says "the habs have to change their reputation" regarding diving. Also that the habs were the main target of the embellishment crackdown. Well, that explains a lot. I already thought we were being held to a different standard. Pretty clear now. It makes our record all the more amazing.
I have to wonder if the guys making these calls actually watch other teams. Or maybe they're just so blinded by hate and self interest that they cannot be objective.
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Nov 22, 2014 19:28:26 GMT -5
The bottom line is the Habs dive a lot and its embrassing. It is not how I played growing up or how I learnt it should be played and the reason most Canadian men don't watch soccer. Get over it, stop doing it and don't whine when you are called on it, now go play hard.
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Post by Skilly on Nov 22, 2014 19:36:02 GMT -5
The bottom line is the Habs dive a lot and its embrassing. It is not how I played growing up or how I learnt it should be played and the reason most Canadian men don't watch soccer. Get over it, stop doing it and don't whine when you are called on it, now go play hard. I agree, it's so bad now that other teams complain after every call against them and the refs bite ... Not right away maybe, but eventually during the game. When you get a reputation, it's hard to shake
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Post by Disp on Nov 22, 2014 19:44:40 GMT -5
It's embarrassing when anyone does it. And every team does, but more people hate the habs so it gets blown out of proportion.
Just for example, Detroit drew at least a couple calls vs us this year that were pretty obvious. One was a snap your head back grab your face type, just like Pleks. Didn't see a whole lot of replays of that one on sports centre. Nobody hates Detroit, nobody is going to care. It's not newsworthy.
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Post by jkr on Nov 22, 2014 22:30:27 GMT -5
It's embarrassing when anyone does it. And every team does, but more people hate the habs so it gets blown out of proportion. Just for example, Detroit drew at least a couple calls vs us this year that were pretty obvious. One was a snap your head back grab your face type, just like Pleks. Didn't see a whole lot of replays of that one on sports centre. Nobody hates Detroit, nobody is going to care. It's not newsworthy. Agreed. How can people say MTL is the worst at it unless you see every team play on a regular basis? It's unfair to label a team like that based on your perceptions. Hard evidence may be difficult to come by because these calls are so subjective but that's what I need to be convinced of that assertion.
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Post by Skilly on Nov 22, 2014 23:43:38 GMT -5
It's embarrassing when anyone does it. And every team does, but more people hate the habs so it gets blown out of proportion. Just for example, Detroit drew at least a couple calls vs us this year that were pretty obvious. One was a snap your head back grab your face type, just like Pleks. Didn't see a whole lot of replays of that one on sports centre. Nobody hates Detroit, nobody is going to care. It's not newsworthy. Agreed. How can people say MTL is the worst at it unless you see every team play on a regular basis? It's unfair to label a team like that based on your perceptions. Hard evidence may be difficult to come by because these calls are so subjective but that's what I need to be convinced of that assertion. Just count up the embellishing penalties ... If we want to talk semantics, then the Habs are the worst at getting caught Also, another piece of "evidence" is when a highly regarded journalist, one that has been applauded as unbiased on this forum before, puts forth that the league made embellishing rules BECAUSE of Montreal. That's all I need to know
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Post by CentreHice on Nov 23, 2014 0:12:24 GMT -5
Did Friedman say elsewhere that the rule was developed solely because of Montreal? Diving/embellishment has been called for several years. All I can find from him on this topic is from his 30 Thoughts from September 15th. 3. The first example the NHL showed in its diving video was Tomas Plekanec’s head-snap in the Eastern Conference Final. The league wasn’t so sure about publicly naming those warned or fined, but the players pressed for it. Montreal’s centre is going to be closely watched at the start of the season.In keeping with "publicly naming those warned or fined", Elliotte….who else was in the video. Why just one name in your report? Bottom line: Want to score some points with your audience? Slam the Habs.
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Post by jkr on Nov 23, 2014 8:43:12 GMT -5
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Post by Doc Holliday on Nov 23, 2014 10:35:06 GMT -5
I've always said that Pleks is the worst diver in the league. Not as much an embellisher, but definitely a world class diver. Thing is, IMO, he doesn't necessarely do it to draw penalty, he often does it to avoid contact, being hit or checked.
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Post by Skilly on Nov 23, 2014 11:07:47 GMT -5
Did Friedman say elsewhere that the rule was developed solely because of Montreal? Diving/embellishment has been called for several years. All I can find from him on this topic is from his 30 Thoughts from September 15th. 3. The first example the NHL showed in its diving video was Tomas Plekanec’s head-snap in the Eastern Conference Final. The league wasn’t so sure about publicly naming those warned or fined, but the players pressed for it. Montreal’s centre is going to be closely watched at the start of the season.In keeping with "publicly naming those warned or fined", Elliotte….who else was in the video. Why just one name in your report? Bottom line: Want to score some points with your audience? Slam the Habs. He said it last night on TV during the intermission. The crack down on calling the rule was issued solely with Montreal in mind
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Post by jkr on Nov 23, 2014 11:25:38 GMT -5
Did Friedman say elsewhere that the rule was developed solely because of Montreal? Diving/embellishment has been called for several years. All I can find from him on this topic is from his 30 Thoughts from September 15th. 3. The first example the NHL showed in its diving video was Tomas Plekanec’s head-snap in the Eastern Conference Final. The league wasn’t so sure about publicly naming those warned or fined, but the players pressed for it. Montreal’s centre is going to be closely watched at the start of the season.In keeping with "publicly naming those warned or fined", Elliotte….who else was in the video. Why just one name in your report? Bottom line: Want to score some points with your audience? Slam the Habs. He said it last night on TV during the intermission. The crack down on calling the rule was issued solely with Montreal in mind That's hardly fair especially when someone like Julien is quoted as saying that "everyone" does it.
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Post by Skilly on Nov 23, 2014 11:35:07 GMT -5
He said it last night on TV during the intermission. The crack down on calling the rule was issued solely with Montreal in mind That's hardly fair especially when someone like Julien is quoted as saying that "everyone" does it. The problem is, we have a team of "everyones" Find me another team that has 4 guys with an embellishment penalty this year. Earlier in the thread someone said there was 17 embellishment penalties called this year. Five occurred in Habs games. Subban, Pacioretty, Prust, and Weaver have been called for it ... Only once has our opposition been called , Giordano Julien is only standing up for Marchand, who does it a lot, and should get called for it more
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Post by CentreHice on Nov 23, 2014 12:01:04 GMT -5
Thanks Skilly. I missed that. I find HNIC's intermissions more than boring. Kypreos is trying too hard to be the "outrageous guy". Hrudey continues to put coffee to sleep.
If Friedman's comments was based on his "30 Thoughts" I posted above, then he's just piling on the Habs' hate wagon. I presume the video shown to the league had more than just Plekanec, yet that was the only one he named.
Maybe some of these were included in the video as well.
Ovechkin, Crosby, Kane….
Everybody dives/embellishes a bit…it's always been a part of the game.
Some do it more than others, yes….and perhaps the incidents have increased in recent years because of parity (any advantage helps)…..but to single out the Habs as THE REASON because of Pleks' head snap from last year's ECF is simply ridiculous. And if it's true, then it's just another example of ABC from the top down.
It must REALLY bother the haters that the Habs are first overall at 16-5-1.
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Post by CentreHice on Nov 23, 2014 12:24:03 GMT -5
And here's well-respected Ray Bourque (who became a coaching consultant with the Bruins in 2005…don't know if he's still in that capacity or not). A statement he made before the Habs-Bruins playoff series last year. Ray Bourque Explains Why Embellishing is Okay“Back in the day the hooking and the holding was crazy, and sometimes some of the stuff that wasn’t called you felt like you had to embellish to make sure that the ref saw it. In today’s game they see pretty much everything. Pretty much everything is called, and you’ll always have guys do it more than others. “If [embellishing] gets you a call why not? How many times do you see a guy that gets hit with the stick right around the helmet? And if you don’t react, if you don’t kind of send your head back or something like that, fifty percent of the time the referee won’t call it.”Earlier in the article, Bourque found an excuse for Marchand grabbing/favouring the wrong knee against Detroit in Round 1 last year. “[Marchand] is a great player. He plays on the edge, but he’s not in the penalty box all that much. He’s an agitator. When people say he embellished one of the calls [in the Detroit series], he was tripped. He was hit. He went down. He didn’t fake going down. “Once he was down maybe he grabbed his knee, and maybe he was hurt or worried about his knee for a second, but I’m happy this kid plays for us. … He agitates, and sometimes he goes in the box, but most of the time he’s bringing somebody with him.”But yeah…..let's single out the Habs, Friedman. Pander to your anti-Montreal audience. We, on this board, do better research.
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Post by Skilly on Nov 23, 2014 13:50:16 GMT -5
Speaking of research. I've went through every gamesheet in the NHL this year.
There have been 37 embellishment calls in the NHL this year, only ONE player has been called twice - Brad Marchand.
The team with the most embellishment calls is the Montreal Canadiens - 4 There are four teams with THREE embellishment calls - Boston, Calgary, Minnesota, and Ottawa
Here is the run- down and naming names so to speak
ANA - Vatenan, Perry ARI - Chipchura, Erat BOS - Marchand (2), Smith BUF - CAL - Giordano, Granlund, Byron CAR - CHI - Shaw COL - CBJ - Hartnell DAL - FLA - Jokinen DET - Abdelkader EDM - Perron LA - Stoll MIN - Backstrom, Veilleux, Ballard MON - Subban, Pacioretty, Prust, Weaver NAS - Forsberg OTT - Ryan, Lazar, McArthur PHI - Schenn, Rinaldo PIT - Downie, Kunitz NJ - nYI - Martin NYR - SJ - Irwin TB - Johnson Toronto - STL - Tarasenko, Ott Van - WAS - WIN - Slater
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Post by seventeen on Nov 23, 2014 14:25:26 GMT -5
I'm not going to comment on the fairness or unfairness of it. I will point out, though, that this seems to have become a bigger issue since Julien and other Bruins made "embellishment their favourite word. And don't they have a strong connection to the league office? Hmmmm, maybe I am commenting on fairness.
We have a couple of guys who perhaps watched too much of the wrong soccer growing up. Gallagher is not one of those guys.
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Nov 23, 2014 15:16:47 GMT -5
A kid complains that every time he steals an apple he gets his hand slapped and it hurts. Don't blame the person slapping his hand, blame the kid for stealing the apples.
Gallagher stops diving and he will get the good calls when deserved
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Post by christrpn on Nov 23, 2014 17:20:30 GMT -5
A kid complains that every time he steals an apple he gets his hand slapped and it hurts. Don't blame the person slapping his hand, blame the kid for stealing the apples. Gallagher stops diving and he will get the good calls when deserved TBH, I don't see where Gallagher gets the reputation. Plekanec, Patches, subban, yes, but not Gallagher. I challenge anyone who says differently to show me video or game sheets proving me wrong. I think the big problem between the refs and Gallagher is that, not only does he make the refs life hell by crashing the crease all the time, he seems to mouth off to them when the calls don't come. Their belief is probably that if he plays the way he does, there will be physical play that comes with.
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Post by jkr on Nov 23, 2014 18:11:23 GMT -5
That's hardly fair especially when someone like Julien is quoted as saying that "everyone" does it. The problem is, we have a team of "everyones" Find me another team that has 4 guys with an embellishment penalty this year. Earlier in the thread someone said there was 17 embellishment penalties called this year. Five occurred in Habs games. Subban, Pacioretty, Prust, and Weaver have been called for it ... Only once has our opposition been called , Giordano Julien is only standing up for Marchand, who does it a lot, and should get called for it more the 17 number came from the Globe article. There isn't any team with four calls but there are several with three. That tells me that the Habs aren't the runaway winners in embellishing calls like some would have us think.
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Post by jkr on Nov 23, 2014 18:14:02 GMT -5
A kid complains that every time he steals an apple he gets his hand slapped and it hurts. Don't blame the person slapping his hand, blame the kid for stealing the apples. Gallagher stops diving and he will get the good calls when deserved TBH, I don't see where Gallagher gets the reputation. Plekanec, Patches, subban, yes, but not Gallagher. I challenge anyone who says differently to show me video or game sheets proving me wrong. I think the big problem between the refs and Gallagher is that, not only does he make the refs life hell by crashing the crease all the time, he seems to mouth off to them when the calls don't come. Their belief is probably that if he plays the way he does, there will be physical play that comes with. Gallagher hasn't been called for embellishing according to a previous post. Where he does get hurt is in the goalie interference & crease crashing. Like Tomas Holstrom before him, the referees assume he's in the wrong. Once the officials get an idea in their heads it's hard to break. MTL suffers for it now like Detroit suffered for it in Holmstrom's heydey.
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Post by folatre on Nov 23, 2014 22:38:27 GMT -5
Maybe this 'embellishing' thing has placed the target on the Habs and so refs call considerably more penalties on Habs than opponents. Maybe this 'embellishing' thing is product of that disparity in calls.
It is hard to say. But really I think the organisation should have a couple of conversation with the league office asking for Mr. Devorski to clarify his remarks and to remind the suits in New York that Montreal does not talk about the officiating in public despite being in top 2 or 3 most penalized teams.
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