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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 4, 2014 11:05:02 GMT -5
Marinaro singing my song…. MT did everything on the first line last night…adding Sekac….adding Weise….everything EXCEPT moving DD off. He currently ranks 55th in scoring among league centres. 55th! That's a #1 centre on a contending team… Please…enough of this nonsense! I heard Martin Lemay of RDS on Habs breakfast (TSN 690) and he would not admit that DD should be separated from patches, while another guy (Connor McKenna I believe) was saying DD should be removed and another centre should take his place. He suggested Pleky because Pleky and Patches have real good chemistry on the PK. Audio of Habs BreakfastI am concerned this is becoming a franco/non-franco thing when it should be about the ability of a player to play a position. The thing that is most worrisome is that Dale Weise has as many primary assist on Patches goals as DD has. That is a huge concern and it shows me something is wrong with DD and MT better find out what it is before he continues messing with other lines to get DD going.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Dec 4, 2014 11:21:25 GMT -5
...don't think it's a franco/non franco thing but it’s sure turning into a “…bash your favorite scapegoat…” thing… Desharnais had 3 shots last night, second best on the team, and did the superb pass to Galchenyuk for the only HABS goal… yet everyone here is on his back… again… last night it’s completely unwarranted… …but when the lynch mob is out there is no reasoning with it…
For the last 10 games the HABS are a .500 team, if you ask me, it’s got nothing to do with Desharnais… Bergevin threw his team under the bus with the acquisition of Gonchar, Allen which led to the departure of Beaulieu/Tinordi… It was crystal clear in the playoff against NY last year that our old slow D couldn’t compare to NY’s young, fast and mobile D… yet here we go again filling the D with veterans who probably won’t play another NHL game once we let them go… Markov/Gonchar/Allen/Gilbert/Weaver would have been an interesting defense in 2004, but it’s pitiful in 2014… Send Gilbert wherever (Detroit?), give Allen his ticket for Hamilton, bring back BeauNordi and let Weaver be the 7th dmen/filler that he is. Before even thinking of touching the forwards that's what I do.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 4, 2014 11:42:36 GMT -5
I'm tired of seeing Eller lose his best linemates. I think it's pretty clear at this point that MT plays favourites. I know it's not DD's fault, but I think this preferential treatment turns a lot of fans against DD. I wonder what effect, if any, this has in the dressing room. I can't imagine Eller being ok with it. It's not just that, Froz, but what I'd hate to see is Lars being singled out again ... bear with me for a sec, but I remember Brian Savage being unfairly singled out back in the day ... it was under Mario Tremblay ... Savage was removed from the top line so as to get the second line scoring ... when that didn't work out, Savage was sent to the third line and the next thing we read is something like "... Savage working hard to get back up to the top line(s) ..." that's a paraphrase, granted, but when that coaching decision didn't out work with the second line, it all of a sudden became Savage's fault ... now here's a guy (Eller) who's had success with Galchenyuk and Gallagher ... that line gets split up eventually and all of a sudden it's Eller who comes under the media microscope ... lots of praise was/is being heaped upon G&G but Eller was soon regarded as "the weakest link" (bye-bye) despite being matched up with the club's lower-lines players ... I understand that it's necessary to continually find the winning line combos for success, but I really don't want to hear how Eller "struggles to recapture his game" now that Sekac has been moved ... Cheers.
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Post by jkr on Dec 4, 2014 12:09:53 GMT -5
...don't think it's a franco/non franco thing but it’s sure turning into a “…bash your favorite scapegoat…” thing… Desharnais had 3 shots last night, second best on the team, and did the superb pass to Galchenyuk for the only HABS goal… yet everyone here is on his back… again… last night it’s completely unwarranted… …but when the lynch mob is out there is no reasoning with it… For the last 10 games the HABS are a .500 team, if you ask me, it’s got nothing to do with Desharnais… Bergevin threw his team under the bus with the acquisition of Gonchar, Allen which led to the departure of Beaulieu/Tinordi… It was crystal clear in the playoff against NY last year that our old slow D couldn’t compare to NY’s young, fast and mobile D… yet here we go again filling the D with veterans who probably won’t play another NHL game once we let them go… Markov/Gonchar/Allen/Gilbert/Weaver would have been an interesting defense in 2004, but it’s pitiful in 2014… Send Gilbert wherever (Detroit?), give Allen his ticket for Hamilton, bring back BeauNordi and let Weaver be the 7th dmen/filler that he is. Before even thinking of touching the forwards that's what I do. I understand these trades - get rid of those contracts to save cap room & sign Gallagher et al. But just because he has Allen & Gonchar doesn't mean he has to play them every night. Maybe MT just has to tell Bergevin & Molson - unless there's an injury these guys aren't playing any more. But even with that - how do you explain the lackluster performances? You can't blame a lack of effort or emotion on the age of the D corps.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 4, 2014 12:14:40 GMT -5
...don't think it's a franco/non franco thing but it’s sure turning into a “…bash your favorite scapegoat…” thing… Desharnais had 3 shots last night, second best on the team, and did the superb pass to Galchenyuk for the only HABS goal… yet everyone here is on his back… again… last night it’s completely unwarranted… …but when the lynch mob is out there is no reasoning with it… For the last 10 games the HABS are a .500 team, if you ask me, it’s got nothing to do with Desharnais… Bergevin threw his team under the bus with the acquisition of Gonchar, Allen which led to the departure of Beaulieu/Tinordi… It was crystal clear in the playoff against NY last year that our old slow D couldn’t compare to NY’s young, fast and mobile D… yet here we go again filling the D with veterans who probably won’t play another NHL game once we let them go… Markov/Gonchar/Allen/Gilbert/Weaver would have been an interesting defense in 2004, but it’s pitiful in 2014… Send Gilbert wherever (Detroit?), give Allen his ticket for Hamilton, bring back BeauNordi and let Weaver be the 7th dmen/filler that he is. Before even thinking of touching the forwards that's what I do. I might not be too popular with this opinion, Doc, but I'd first ask Bergevin what his master plan is in bringing in two aging veterans on the blueline ... here's what I mean ... the transition game was practically non-existant last night ... Minnesota can take some cudos for that, but not all of it ... heard Greg Millen say that the Montreal forwards were waiting for passes far too much up the ice ... is it a case of les boys expecting the high-tempo breakouts (that Beaulieu/Tinordi provided), or was it a case of the new-look, advanced-aged defence corps not being able to keep up ... I'm not trying to make something out of nothing, Doc, but as much as I really dislike listening to Millen, he does know the game ... honestly, if I were Therrien I wouldn't be tinkering with the lines until I sorted out the transition game ... that's from an outsider looking in, sure ... Cheers. Edit: You added to your post while I was typing this out (I had a few breaks from it here and there) but I'm basically of the same opinion ... sort out the transition game by adding Tinordi/Beaulieu and remvoing the worn-out pieces ...
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Post by BadCompany on Dec 4, 2014 12:38:46 GMT -5
Maybe it is time for a trade? If anything it might be time for Bergevin to take his foot off the pedal a little bit. Since the season started he's already traded three players in Budaj, Moen and Bourque. On top of all the off-season moves he made. What was that stat? 11 players from last year's conference final team have already left?? That's pretty crazy when you think about it. Bouillon, White, Parros, Murray, Vanek, Briere, Gionta, Gorges, Budaj, Moen, Bourque That's a lot of dressing room changes. Granted, a lot of those players were marginal at best, but they were still on the team.
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Post by Disp on Dec 4, 2014 12:51:40 GMT -5
Just throwing this out there. Maybe MB doesn't want Tinordi or Beaulieau playing In the nhl. Contracts are up and if they go into negotiations as fringe nhlers rather than top sixes, it is going to affect the price. Right now he probably feels they aren't that much better than our old dudes. Get by with fillers this year, lock up NB and JT for cheap in the offseason.
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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 4, 2014 12:57:47 GMT -5
I really don't think MB is that concerned about how we do this year, I think he is more focused on next year, we will have a Beau and Tinner up and maybe Nygren or Pateryn on D. We'll have some bulldog forwards fighting for a spot. I think he had a 5 year plan, when he came on board, to transform this team into a long term contender.
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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 4, 2014 12:58:55 GMT -5
Just throwing this out there. Maybe MB doesn't want Tinordi or Beaulieau playing In the nhl. Contracts are up and if they go into negotiations as fringe nhlers rather than top sixes, it is going to affect the price. Right now he probably feels they aren't that much better than our old dudes. Get by with fillers this year, lock up NB and JT for cheap in the offseason. The problem is the old dudes have old legs and will eventually get worn out by being over used by MT.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Dec 4, 2014 13:29:59 GMT -5
...don't think it's a franco/non franco thing but it’s sure turning into a “…bash your favorite scapegoat…” thing… Desharnais had 3 shots last night, second best on the team, and did the superb pass to Galchenyuk for the only HABS goal… yet everyone here is on his back… again… last night it’s completely unwarranted… …but when the lynch mob is out there is no reasoning with it… For the last 10 games the HABS are a .500 team, if you ask me, it’s got nothing to do with Desharnais… Bergevin threw his team under the bus with the acquisition of Gonchar, Allen which led to the departure of Beaulieu/Tinordi… It was crystal clear in the playoff against NY last year that our old slow D couldn’t compare to NY’s young, fast and mobile D… yet here we go again filling the D with veterans who probably won’t play another NHL game once we let them go… Markov/Gonchar/Allen/Gilbert/Weaver would have been an interesting defense in 2004, but it’s pitiful in 2014… Send Gilbert wherever (Detroit?), give Allen his ticket for Hamilton, bring back BeauNordi and let Weaver be the 7th dmen/filler that he is. Before even thinking of touching the forwards that's what I do. I might not be too popular with this opinion, Doc, but I'd first ask Bergevin what his master plan is in bringing in two aging veterans on the blueline ... here's what I mean ... the transition game was practically non-existant last night ... Minnesota can take some cudos for that, but not all of it ... heard Greg Millen say that the Montreal forwards were waiting for passes far too much up the ice ... is it a case of les boys expecting the high-tempo breakouts (that Beaulieu/Tinordi provided), or was it a case of the new-look, advanced-aged defence corps not being able to keep up ... I'm not trying to make something out of nothing, Doc, but as much as I really dislike listening to Millen, he does know the game ... honestly, if I were Therrien I wouldn't be tinkering with the lines until I sorted out the transition game ... that's from an outsider looking in, sure ... Cheers. Edit: You added to your post while I was typing this out (I had a few breaks from it here and there) but I'm basically of the same opinion ... sort out the transition game by adding Tinordi/Beaulieu and remvoing the worn-out pieces ... ...and I completely agree with that. Transition game is limited to dumping it out, dumping it in... Yes the space between the dmen and the forwards is too wide, but part of that is because, IMO, our D is slow on their foot and slow in their decision making... Again adding Beaulieu/Tinordi there who are both mobile, good puck handlers, and good skaters would help a lot. I understand the reasoning behind moving Bourque and Moen for cap consideration next year, but I don't get why we have to endure a bad D this year because of that, when we have better options in Hamilton.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Dec 4, 2014 14:13:18 GMT -5
I understand the reasoning behind moving Bourque and Moen for cap consideration next year, but I don't get why we have to endure a bad D this year because of that, when we have better options in Hamilton. Exactly. I'm fine with the deals that netted us Gonchar and Allen, but we don't necessarily have to PLAY them. Allen can be waived and sent to Hamilton and Gonchar can either be scratched or given spot duty as a PP specialist. Jeez, watching Allen is like watching Doug Murray again. Haven't we seen this movie before? I agree 100%, Doc. Bergevin more than anyone (as a former dman) needs to look at the blueline and figure it out. Bring back Beaulieu and Tinordi, infuse some youth and quickness into the mix, be patient with it, and then see what difference that makes. We KNOW it's not going to get any better with Gonchar and Allen and I'm 100% sure it won't get worse with the kids. It's weird because this was clearly the plan going into this year and MB/MT bailed on it almost immediately. Again, I get that the trades were made for cap reasons but the bottom line is we still have a couple of stiffs on the blue line and it's not working, and we have better options in Hamilton. Unacceptable.
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Post by seventeen on Dec 4, 2014 14:19:32 GMT -5
The answer might be, Doc, that we think Beaunordi are better options, but do Berg and MT believe so? Those old, slow guys might win more puck battles along the boards than Beaunordi. Not that I think it makes enough of a difference. It's more important to move the puck and stay out of your zone than win a puck battle and almost clear the blue line.
I found, in trying to come up with pairings for the defense, that it was really hard. PK has to be on the first pair, but who plays with him? The number of minutes means that if you play a veteran (Markov for example), you're going to wear out that veteran over the season. But Therrien, perhaps justifiably, won't put Tinordi with him, though from every other standpoint it makes sense. Young, strong, defensive minded, can let PK dominate puck possession in our end without feeling deprived. It makes a lot of sense, but MT doesn't have nearly enough trust. I'm thinking more and more that it's a good pairing. That means Markov can be on the second group, where he doesn't have to put in all the minutes and he'd be stronger. Who do you pair him with? Gilbert, maybe. I'm losing faith in Emelin as his brain cramps are overtaking his strength. I'd consider Weaver. Maybe a few too many minutes for him, but he's a really strong little guy and he fits the defensive type player you'd want with Markov. My third pairing would be Emelin and Beaulieu, with Beau on the right side. Emelin can win the puck battles and Beau can move the puck and attack. Gonchar, Allen would be depth and Gilbert takes over first in case of injuries. But Berg has to move at least one body (Allen?). At some point, the team has to take the plunge with Tinner and Beau. You might even revolve Tinordi and Beaulieu in that first pairing. I just think you've got to get them both in, for experience and speed reasons. Coach the heck out of them and improve Tinordi's puckhandling and decisioning and Beaulieu's strength and compete level. They have the tools, show them how to use them properly. I think that grouping would be better than we have right now.
As an aside, Weaver's had a rough stretch this year, but he's still a really competitive, solid defensive dman. He's one of those leadership guys who doesn't do it with words, and we're sitting him in the stands. Yep.
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 4, 2014 15:18:35 GMT -5
I don't care about last night…I'm supposed to get excited about our #1 centre getting 3 shots on goal….and none of them in the first two periods?
Yes, DD can pass the puck…otherwise he wouldn't be an NHLer. That's his strength. But the fact remains, he's 55th in centre-scoring in the league….that's darn near 3rd line territory….certainly not primo minutes.
He's not the only reason we're struggling…I've never said that. But I think I can expect the FIRST LINE of the Montreal Canadiens to DO something….to be a threat…on a regular basis. To LEAD the team with results. If it's not…then you take a look a personnel and look for weaknesses. Gotta start somewhere.
Yes, MB has aged and slowed our defense in order to make cap room for the future…and that's fine…I understand the finances to that extent. But if it's an indicator that he doesn't care about this year…then why should I care…
And perhaps that's what has the players down…..who knows?
Add the absence of a true captain….
Sounds funny to be having these thoughts when we have a good record….but we now have lots of company and we're on the downswing.
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Post by jkr on Dec 4, 2014 15:22:55 GMT -5
How much say does a coach have? Is MT compelled to play Gonchar & Allen? He did scratch Allen a couple of nights ago.
I remember when Gainey acquired Niinimaa. The way I remember it is that Carbonneau played him for a while. But when it became apparent that he was so awful Carbonneau stopped dressing him. Maybe MT, in a passive agressive way, is showing Bergevin that this just isn't working with Allen & Gonchar by putting them in the lineup & exposing their flaws for all to see.
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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 4, 2014 16:14:22 GMT -5
No practice today...they must have been exhausted after last night's game
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 4, 2014 16:54:30 GMT -5
I think my Habs' critique has been affected by Beliveau's passing.
So many memories of championships….and what it took to win them…
Watch….we'll beat Chicago and it'll all have been for nothing…. (but I'm not holding my breath for that outcome.)
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Post by franko on Dec 4, 2014 17:13:59 GMT -5
Watch….we'll beat Chicago and it'll all have been for nothing…. (but I'm not holding my breath for that outcome.) TSN690 predicts a brilliant game against the Hawks followed by a clunker against the Stars. 'Cause that's the way it's been going.
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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 4, 2014 17:42:17 GMT -5
Watch….we'll beat Chicago and it'll all have been for nothing…. (but I'm not holding my breath for that outcome.) TSN690 predicts a brilliant game against the Hawks followed by a clunker against the Stars. 'Cause that's the way it's been going. They also talked about breaking a routine. .. how about they try pleky with patches
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 4, 2014 19:27:11 GMT -5
At least we won't face Crawford....he's out 2-3 weeks....but it was Antti Raanta who beat St. Louis 4-1. Maybe we'll see backup, Scott Darling... If we work for it, we just might get lucky without Crawford in there. Crawford
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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 4, 2014 19:38:10 GMT -5
At least we won't face Crawford....he's out 2-3 weeks....but it was Antti Raanta who beat St. Louis 4-1. Maybe we'll see backup, Scott Darling... If we work for it, we just might get lucky without Crawford in there. CrawfordThe issue is not crawford, it's our slow D having to deal with Toews Kane Hossa Sharp and the hawks having last change.
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 4, 2014 19:52:17 GMT -5
No question, WD.
I was just pointing out the only ray of hope in tomorrow night's game....that we SHOULD have the goaltending advantage, IF the boys want to work for it.
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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 4, 2014 20:03:15 GMT -5
No question, WD. I was just pointing out the only ray of hope in tomorrow night's game....that we SHOULD have the goaltending advantage, IF the boys want to work for it. Absolutely we usually play well against the Hawks(i still have the game from last year on my pvr) but i think they will eat us up this time. ... I hope I'm wrong though
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Post by habsorbed on Dec 5, 2014 0:26:16 GMT -5
Marinaro singing my song…. MT did everything on the first line last night…adding Sekac….adding Weise….everything EXCEPT moving DD off. He currently ranks 55th in scoring among league centres. 55th! That's a #1 centre on a contending team… Please…enough of this nonsense! That's quite the stat. It says that just about every other team's first two centres score better than DD. And not many of these other centres have a Max calibre player on the wing. I guess when you're a one dimensional player (and not that strong in that dimension either) then you don't give the coach many options.
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 5, 2014 1:18:45 GMT -5
I'm not attacking DD. Just stating that he's not the right player for that role....and we do have someone who should be developed for it.
I know Galchenyuk's only 20....maybe as the season wears on he'll get a shot. That's all I'm asking.
What do I know? As if what any of us think really matters....
Just fun to armchair it, I guess.
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 5, 2014 12:52:49 GMT -5
Pacioretty - DD - Weise
as our #1 line tonight vs. Chicago.
This is a big game...
--considering what Chicago did to us at home last time. --considering the pathetic effort against Minny.
We'll see how the boys respond.
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Post by Disp on Dec 5, 2014 13:41:37 GMT -5
Marinaro singing my song…. MT did everything on the first line last night…adding Sekac….adding Weise….everything EXCEPT moving DD off. He currently ranks 55th in scoring among league centres. 55th! That's a #1 centre on a contending team… Please…enough of this nonsense! That's quite the stat. It says that just about every other team's first two centres score better than DD. And not many of these other centres have a Max calibre player on the wing. I guess when you're a one dimensional player (and not that strong in that dimension either) then you don't give the coach many options. Max isn't without his faults either, the focus is always on DD though, even when Max is a complete no show. DD was one of the few guys who actually wasn't that bad vs the wild.
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 5, 2014 14:13:44 GMT -5
For sure, Disp. There have been a few passengers recently.
I never question DD's effort…it's nothing personal against him. He's likely doing the best he can.
I'm referring to the position he occupies….and the limitations that someone with his stature and skill level bring to it.
The position of #1 centre on a contending team needs to be held by someone closer to a Stamkos, Crosby, Toews, Tavares-type…not closer to a 3rd liner.
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Post by franko on Dec 5, 2014 14:27:23 GMT -5
Pacioretty - DD - Weise as our #1 line tonight vs. Chicago. glad to see MT is taking some initiative and shaking things that aren't working up. oh.
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