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Post by Tankdriver on Dec 7, 2014 20:14:10 GMT -5
Hopefully we can hold out till the summer and then drop a boatload of money on Babcocks door.
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Post by franko on Dec 7, 2014 20:27:25 GMT -5
Four years. That was the extension: four years.
Without that extension I figured he'd last until November. When he signed I said "Oh oh", he's here for a while, boom or bust.
I had to give him props for what he was doing while he was doing it. Now he's back to the old MT I knew and loved.
Four freakin years.
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 7, 2014 20:27:34 GMT -5
Now, we're not as good as those Penguins were….but we don't have key injuries…
Our team is capable of much better….especially the power play.
As has been mentioned earlier, we perhaps lost quite a bit when Gallant left to coach the Panthers.
And four more years is just a monetary obligation. Although I can't see Molson enjoying that buyout.
Besides, the bilingual coaching pool is rather small.
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Post by seventeen on Dec 7, 2014 21:14:45 GMT -5
They have a task master. That's Therrien's management style and it didn't succeed before. I believe he's toned it down, so he has learned something from his past experience. I'm having trouble figuring out if the team is having trouble because of the tools that Therrien has to work with, or if it's him that's using the wrong tools. A little of both maybe. I wonder if he doesn't know how to handle some of the tools, replaces them with inferior tools and therefore produces less than satisfactory results. My apologies to all carpenters out there for the analogy. A very clever and veiled post, 17, I mean beyond brilliant..... calling Therrien a tool.............oops, I hope I didn't misinterpret here, silly me ...sorry if I did! Actually I didn't mean to infer he was a tool, or that any of his players are tools. You can indeed have a good coach who simply doesn't have the right players to use in some situations, so the team gets scored on. The coach can look bad, even though he knew the right thing to do, just didn't have the horses to do it. On occasion, that's Therrien. How'd you like to put a line-up of defensemen together with what he has. Now, having said that, it wasn't me who insisted on playing Bourque till his fingers flew off (I hate that ad), or not having patience with Beaulieu and Tinordi when they were up with the team. If they had developed properly, Therrien wouldn't have the issues he has now. And you could tell from the beginning of the season that we weren't winning because of good systems and a team that works hard for 60 minutes. If you want that, go cheer for Detroit. They consistently do what Andrighetto did last night, make the pass and go to the net or to open ice near the net where they can take a return pass. We have more pure talent than Detroit, but we don't exercise that talent and we don't play smart. We don't support our teammates (not specifically WE, but the Hab players dont support their teammates by staying closer, making it easier for them to make a pass, or to cover for them if they're beaten one on one. No, our forwards are at the red line or beyond waiting for that long bomb that's extremely tough to make. If it's not part of the system, why are they not following the system? And if it is part of the system, what the heck kind of system are we using? Putting DD out for that key face-off yesterday just said it all to me. He's not adjusting to the game. If both Pleks and Malhotra were tired or injured, maybe I could understand it, but one of them had to be available...they're on different lines. They're both much better than DD. In fact, I might have had both out there in case one got thrown out. Isn't that basic coaching 101? So while I'm not calling Therrien a tool, I also feel he's average at best and not nearly good enough for us to beat out those other very well coached teams. Heck, if Tampa had had decent goaltending last year, they might have beaten us in that first round. Coopers a good coach and with a line-up that has a good goalie, one good dman and one sniper, they're averaging 3.6 goals a game. That should be us. We have a good goalie, a good dman and a sniper (not Stamkos' equal, but a decent one) and a better supporting cast and we're dropping like a turkey from a helicopter. Ok, Bourque's gone, and now Berg's really difficult task starts.
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Post by franko on Dec 7, 2014 22:27:50 GMT -5
four more years is just a monetary obligation. Although I can't see Molson enjoying that buyout. I don't expect him to last the 4. however, I expect him to last a bit longer than previous. can't see him not lasting well into next year. I mean, to sign him for 4 and then to fire him before the extension even begins? can't see it. so as much as I don't like it, I have to hold out hope that something happens to help him help the team to rediscover their mojo.
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Dec 7, 2014 22:50:28 GMT -5
I don't think you can point at any one thing that seems to be a problem but in my opinion Therrien makes an easy scapegoat here. Sure I will 2nd guess some of his moves such as DD taking a key faceoff or having Gilbert on the ice late in the game but I'm not the coach and don't know what is going on at that moment on the bench. I think right now the team is trying to find an identity and are better then they are showing but not as good as the team that couldn't lose to start the season. Right now your top 6 forewards are not scoring but is that because they are not working hard enough or the defense are not getting them the puck and starting the transition game better? I agree, let Galchenuk play center with DD playing on the second line and if Patches wants to play with him then put him on the 2nd line too. MB went out picked up two defenseman but now has to see if they have any value to the team and to do that they have to be played in all situations. I really don't give a damn about Beaulieu and Tinordi playing in Hamilton. Two young 20 something defenseman are not going to make or break this team or save the season suddenly, and for those that think their development has been hurt well Tinordi played under the Hunters in London, now in the AHL getting top minutes and his father is an ex-NHL'er so I don't see how a couple of dozen games under MT has ruined him. I also would be surprised if Allen, Weaver, Gilbert and Gonchar are all on the team by the time the trade deadline rolls around. These guys are filler, thats it, what is hurting the team more is Emelin looks lost many nights and PK Subban is closer to a third pairing then a Norris trophy. If these two were playing to expectations the other 20 minutes split between the bottom 4 guys would not mean much. I believe MB had a plan of your top line playing like one while Galy, Sekac and Gallagher being 2nd or 3rd line players where they could evolve into 1st line players. Markov, PK, Emelin playing top solid 3 minutes while 1-2 kids filled out the bottom and gained experience but when your top forewards and top defenseman are only playing average at best then you can't expect the kids or a career 3rd liner to carry that load. MT can only change the parings, work on systems in practice but he can't make them any better in real games and that seems to be the problem.
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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 8, 2014 8:35:10 GMT -5
That should be us. We have a good goalie, a good dman and a sniper (not Stamkos' equal, but a decent one) and a better supporting cast and we're dropping like a turkey from a helicopter. The line above reminds me of an episode from WKRP in Cincinati
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Post by franko on Dec 8, 2014 8:51:12 GMT -5
That should be us. We have a good goalie, a good dman and a sniper (not Stamkos' equal, but a decent one) and a better supporting cast and we're dropping like a turkey from a helicopter. The line above reminds me of an episode from WKRP in Cincinati the best clip of all time. W . . . K . . . R . . . P . . . Oh the humanity!
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 8, 2014 9:06:50 GMT -5
Wonderful coaching and leadership....... At times like this…i.e. when a coach can't correct problem areas...I remember that the elite talent-laden Pittsburgh Penguins had to fire him the year after going to the Finals. How could he lose a room like that…after enjoying tremendous success the year before? As soon as Bylsma took over…BOOM….a ridiculous run all the way to a parade. Obviously, players stop responding to certain tactics/strategies. I'm not saying that IS the case now…but it's reminding me of it….and I'm sure Bergevin is keeping a close eye on that aspect. I think the new guard will learn a lot from this but at the same time it has to be hard being a leader under an autocrat ... I keep going back to what the HNIC panel was suggesting in that Montreal was skating every team they faced into the ground ... now they've changed their game plan and they're losing ... I'm very disappointed in Therrien right now ... he has the team that will achieve great things and, like you pointed out, CH, he was not successful in Pittsburgh ... Cheers.
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 8, 2014 11:01:05 GMT -5
I'm really trying to not over-react, Dis.
But how long do we have to wait for consistency at all levels?
Right now, we're playing like a bubble team at best. Every team goes through stretches of poor play throughout the year….but the confidence of a contender never wanes….they give their heads a shake and get back to business.
To me, it just feels like another year burned from Price's prime.
How many years did we burn from Koivu's prime, i.e. being unable to build correctly around him? How about ALL the years.
Yes, Bergevin has made some great moves…but while freeing up cap space may prove huge come the deadline (or next summer)….he's also made our D the oldest, and arguably the slowest, in the league.
And we're back to having passengers and/or a lack of effort from many of our players. I don't mind losing…but not when the first 40 minutes are thrown away. Plekanec has always driven me nuts in that category.
We're clearly still a team mired in transition, and after last year's playoffs--the furthest we've been since 1993--it just leads to major frustration. Considering our great start while not playing our best, we haven't gotten better and so we're pretty easy to scout and shut down.
Scoring is down from last year….our PP is a joke….and that MAY have something or EVERYTHING to do with coaching strategies/methods/mindset.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Dec 8, 2014 11:26:34 GMT -5
But how long do we have to wait for consistency at all levels? Right now, we're playing like a bubble team at best. To me, it just feels like another year burned from Price's prime. Yes, Bergevin has made some great moves…but while freeing up cap space may prove huge come the deadline (or next summer)….he's also made our D the oldest, and arguably the slowest, in the league. We're clearly still a team mired in transition, and after last year's playoffs--the furthest we've been since 1993--it just leads to major frustration. Considering our great start while not playing our best, we haven't gotten better and so we're pretty easy to scout and shut down. Scoring is down from last year….our PP is a joke….and that MAY have something or EVERYTHING to do with coaching strategies/methods/mindset. Ouch, ouch, ouch, ouch, and ouch! Agee on all counts. You want to see the progress, the development of a contender. We've seen it with the Bruins, Penguins, Hawks, Kings, and even teams like the Ducks, Blues, and Sharks.... teams that haven't quite reached the pinnacle but consistent regular season teams that have a real identity. The Habs, we still don't know and we are Year 3 into the Bergevin regime. And next year is already locked in. We have 10 forwards under contract through next year, 4 dmen, and 2 goalies. Next year's team is going to look excatly like this year's team. The defense is bad right now. I was fine with MB acquring Gonchar and Allen for cap reasons, but I didn't think he was actually going to PLAY them! I don't like Therrien but I'm bothered more by Bergevin right now. Get Bournival back in there, call up at least one of Tinordi or Beaulieu, waive Allen and send him to Hamilton, and keep Gonchar for spot PP duty. If a lousy season is what it takes to get rid of Therrien....
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Post by jkr on Dec 8, 2014 11:33:06 GMT -5
I've mentioned it before - how much power does the coach have? If he thinks the team would be better off without the acquisitions in the lineup can he say so? He has already scratched Allen the last 2 games. I'll give him credit for that. He's got the security of the contract extension so even if he does get fired he cashes in.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 8, 2014 11:43:26 GMT -5
I'm really trying to not over-react, Dis. But how long do we have to wait for consistency at all levels? In my humble opinion, you're not overreacting whatsoever, CH ... we had a great team last year and we had a great team at the beginning of this year ... I wouldn't group us in with the bubble teams ... now we're just a bad hockey team ... It wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn if Bergevin consulted Therrien on his decisions to bring in both Gonchar and Allen ... and they can make all the mistakes they want ... I'm reluctant singling out specific players if they happen to play for Therrien, CH, but just the same I think you may have hit the nail on the head here ... Until Therrien starts acknowledging that he has a fast, talented group of players, I think our club will continue to skate around the ice looking like they've had the life sucked out of them ... a few posters (yourself included) have made reference to the pattern of Therrien's tenure in Pittsburgh ... well, the pattern is repeating itself in Montreal and unless there's another bilingual coach out there who understands the media responsibilities in Montreal, there's nothing Bergevin will be able to do about it ... it's too bad but I think we'll have to be officially out of the playoffs before Therrien is cashiered ... but here's the thing, CH, that conference run last year was no fluke ... it the problem is a few players in and a few players out it would have manifested itself right at the beginning of the season ... we would have seen the group would have been stuck in a "storming stage" right off the bat ... however, they're in a storming stage now and here are some of the causes ... Subban, Pacioretty, Markov and Plekanec have been around long enough, but like I was saying before it doesn't matter who's wearing the letters, there's only so much leadership you can apply when working for an autocrat ... this is coming from an outsider looking, though ... Cheers.
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Post by seventeen on Dec 8, 2014 12:24:23 GMT -5
Bergevin's moves might make more sense at the trade deadline, definitely. If, for example, at the deadline, he jettisons Allen and Gonchar, brings up Beaunordi, and swings a trade for a UFA to be, or a goal scorer of any type, then that makes these moves more logical. What still has to be addressed, however, is the effort level and consistency of the players. I don't see how those moves will affect that part of the game. Perhaps if the team is rejuvenated by the infusion of the new players? We still wouldn't have a #1 centre and we'd still be wondering what kind of Desharnais will show up, and whether or not a leader has emerged from the Group of Four.
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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 8, 2014 13:30:31 GMT -5
If a lousy season is what it takes to get rid of Therrien.... I am happy to have them suck pond water for the rest of the season if it means MT is gone. He's not the guy to take this team to the cup... I don't know who is but IMO to get to the cup and win it all, a coach has to make between game and in game adjustments and MT cannot do that... he has proven over and over that he is unable to do it. Maybe the past 2 years the Habs have been successful because Gallant was able to communicate to the players in a way that they could understand as opposed to MT telling them to play the right way. Can someone please explain to me what 'play the right way' means? I hate when people use it because to me it is a cop out statement because you don't know exactly what the player should do but you don't want them doing what they currently are doing.
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Post by Willie Dog on Dec 8, 2014 13:37:42 GMT -5
When Eller is back from his injury I would have no problem moving Pleky to the Oilers, he has absolutely disappeared offensively. When Malholtra was brought in I was thrilled. I know Pleky has offensive skills, we see it on the PK all the time. But since his hot start, he has petered out and is playing like Jacques Martin is still coaching him. I can see MB moving him for Perron and freeing up about 1.2 mill in space.
EDIT: Pleky does have a modified NTC, not sure what teams are on the list though.
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Post by Skilly on Dec 8, 2014 13:53:43 GMT -5
Hopefully we can hold out till the summer and then drop a boatload of money on Babcocks door. I am certainly not a Therrien apologist , but I don't want Badcock coaching the Habs. For one, he already has shown that he dislikes PK's game. Secondly, since expansion in 1967, only one coach has won a Stanley Cup with two teams - Scotty Bowman. As strange as it sounds, we are more likely to win with Therrien.
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Post by Skilly on Dec 8, 2014 14:10:23 GMT -5
I don't think you can point at any one thing that seems to be a problem but in my opinion Therrien makes an easy scapegoat here. Sure I will 2nd guess some of his moves such as DD taking a key faceoff or having Gilbert on the ice late in the game but I'm not the coach and don't know what is going on at that moment on the bench. I think right now the team is trying to find an identity and are better then they are showing but not as good as the team that couldn't lose to start the season. Right now your top 6 forewards are not scoring but is that because they are not working hard enough or the defense are not getting them the puck and starting the transition game better? I agree, let Galchenuk play center with DD playing on the second line and if Patches wants to play with him then put him on the 2nd line too. MB went out picked up two defenseman but now has to see if they have any value to the team and to do that they have to be played in all situations. I really don't give a damn about Beaulieu and Tinordi playing in Hamilton. Two young 20 something defenseman are not going to make or break this team or save the season suddenly, and for those that think their development has been hurt well Tinordi played under the Hunters in London, now in the AHL getting top minutes and his father is an ex-NHL'er so I don't see how a couple of dozen games under MT has ruined him. I also would be surprised if Allen, Weaver, Gilbert and Gonchar are all on the team by the time the trade deadline rolls around. These guys are filler, thats it, what is hurting the team more is Emelin looks lost many nights and PK Subban is closer to a third pairing then a Norris trophy. If these two were playing to expectations the other 20 minutes split between the bottom 4 guys would not mean much. I believe MB had a plan of your top line playing like one while Galy, Sekac and Gallagher being 2nd or 3rd line players where they could evolve into 1st line players. Markov, PK, Emelin playing top solid 3 minutes while 1-2 kids filled out the bottom and gained experience but when your top forewards and top defenseman are only playing average at best then you can't expect the kids or a career 3rd liner to carry that load. MT can only change the parings, work on systems in practice but he can't make them any better in real games and that seems to be the problem. Beaulieu's and Tinordi's development has been hurt ... Juniors and the AHL are not the NHL. This time next year, we will still be wondering why the two of them can not adapt to the speed of the NHL. Then what? At some point you have to just put them in the line-up and live with the mistakes. That year, was this year. We were winning with them, even with all the mistakes. Now we have one guy playing sporadically and the other stinking up the joint, and to make matters worse, we are starting to lose. I'm not sure what MB's plan was, but after last year's success and seeing that an infusion of goal scoring could be the difference, this year was the year MB should have been targeting as the year that we could go far. I'm certain his plan wasn't lets wait until next year and start afresh, especially with a winning team, tops in the league. But by sending his two top defensive prospects back to the AHL for old, useless, legs ... he in fact kinda did that. I really dont see what Beau and Tinner can learn in the AHL, other than tough love and counting less money. Did they make more mistakes than Weaver, Gonchar, and Allen? No, they didnt. Since we acquired Allen we are 2-6-1. I dont think that is a coincidence. The defense is now very aged, sluggish, and going to cost us more and more points
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