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Post by Boston_Habs on Feb 26, 2015 15:18:56 GMT -5
I love it. 7 pages on a swap of 3rd liners and the guy hasn't even played a game yet!
As I said earlier, I think Berg deserves the benefit of the doubt for now. As BC said, you can't go by the advanced stats alone. They are useful and worth watching but I don't think they shed the kind of light that the advocates will tell you. It's not like baseball and even basketball where you can reduce the stats to the point where they have real explanatory and even predictive power. There are so many individual data points in baseball (AB, hits, runs, walks, etc.) and basketball (lots of shot attempts, discrete possessions, rebounds) that the stats are meaningful. In hockey there are fewer actual data points in the flow of a game and lots of variables you have to control for when it comes to assessing the impact of a single player on the ice and when it's all said and done it needs to show up in actual performance.
Do I think Sekac is the more talented player of the two? Probably. Does that mean he's a better fit for this team than Smith-Pelly? I don't know but I will defer to Bergevin on that. I don't think either Sekac or DSP will be more than 3rd liners and I suspect Sekac (similar to Eller) will never produce to the level that his "advanced stats" suggest. But I wouldn't be surprised if he produces more in Anaheim than DSP will in Montreal.
It's all about making us a better T-E-A-M. If DSP makes us better or a tougher team to handle in a deep playoff run then I'm good with the trade.
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Post by Tankdriver on Feb 26, 2015 15:25:27 GMT -5
It's been awhile but does Sekac remind you of Jan Bulis? The potential to score 15-20 goals but not more than a 3rd winger?
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Post by seventeen on Feb 26, 2015 15:39:33 GMT -5
It's been awhile but does Sekac remind you of Jan Bulis? The potential to score 15-20 goals but not more than a 3rd winger? Could be. Can't help but feel a little disappointed that he had so few points the last couple of months, regardless of the lines he was on, etc. It could also be that he hasn't adjusted yet, and we'll know that in a while. Who was that Swedish player who was sought after as a free agent and ended up being not what was hoped for....Brunner? I thought his last name was longer, but the point is the same.
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Post by habsorbed on Feb 26, 2015 15:40:04 GMT -5
It's been awhile but does Sekac remind you of Jan Bulis? The potential to score 15-20 goals but not more than a 3rd winger? You had to go there. Sadly, you may be right. But Bulis was given much more opportunity, both in duration and quality ice time, before he was cut loose. Buils was a good skater but hands were sub par. Sekac in my view has all the skills required for a 30 goal scorer. Perhaps MB wanted a significant contribution to the team NOW. DSP is probably more capable of that than Sekac. If this is our window then sure go for it. My fear is we will be in a better position to win the Cup 2 years from now when Carey, PK, Max, Beau, Chucky, and BGal are in their prime or entering same. If Sekac is the player i think he will become, he would have been a great fit at that time.
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Post by frozone on Feb 26, 2015 16:12:16 GMT -5
It's been awhile but does Sekac remind you of Jan Bulis? The potential to score 15-20 goals but not more than a 3rd winger? Could be. Can't help but feel a little disappointed that he had so few points the last couple of months, regardless of the lines he was on, etc. It could also be that he hasn't adjusted yet, and we'll know that in a while. Who was that Swedish player who was sought after as a free agent and ended up being not what was hoped for....Brunner? I thought his last name was longer, but the point is the same. You may be thinking of Fabian Brunnstrom? The thing that Sekac has to develop is the shooting instinct. Considering he's only taken 57 or so shots so far this season, he's not showing that he has the goal scorer's instinct. He does however have a great shot. Some lessons from Max could have really helped him in the offensive zone, I think. Max was more of a passer when he was a prospect too, and now look where he is.
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Post by franko on Feb 26, 2015 16:15:11 GMT -5
around and around and around we go. 8 pages by the end of the night? 9?
it will come back to this question: was he given the opportunity he needed so that he could meet expectations, or did he not use the opportunity he was given to prove that he could meet expectations.
at least that's the way I see it.
and the answer? we'll never know.
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 26, 2015 16:35:53 GMT -5
I get the amount of pages.* So thirsty for goals are we that even the mirage of an oasis is very powerful. Not saying Sekac was a mirage at all….just how parched we are. Thankfully, the deadline's not over. Marc "The Wire" Bergevin ain't done yet. *And if Sekac starts lighting it up in Anaheim, expect this thread to reach 40 pages.
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Post by Dschens on Feb 26, 2015 17:07:47 GMT -5
Perhaps MB wanted a significant contribution to the team NOW. DSP is probably more capable of that than Sekac. If this is our window then sure go for it. My fear is we will be in a better position to win the Cup 2 years from now when Carey, PK, Max, Beau, Chucky, and BGal are in their prime or entering same. If Sekac is the player i think he will become, he would have been a great fit at that time. He wouldn't. But it's not his fault, he could be a 40-40-80 guy and still he wouldn't. There's a scheme in our playoff exits in the last couple of years. We were bullied by teams and couldn't match it. Which player did Kreider's head chop off in last year series or in this season? I'm still waiting. As long we are only a finesse team we will never win a cup in this league. Sadly, but true. And by the way, maybe I missed it but I think nobody in this thread has seen this trade as just what it is, a pure hockey trade. Anaheim needed some finesse, we some grit. Anaheim had a logjam at right wing and DSP has bounced through their line up most of this season playing left wing and center, but DSP's natural position is right wing. Here's an article about the trade from the other side. Of course, all of us know Sekac couldn't play his position on one of the two top lines because there were MaxPac and Galchenyuk. If Alex would already be our 1st line center and MT some kind of an other coach, we would have had an opening for Jiri as LW on the 2nd line, but alas there are too many centers on our team.
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Post by Disp on Feb 26, 2015 18:17:30 GMT -5
It's been awhile but does Sekac remind you of Jan Bulis? The potential to score 15-20 goals but not more than a 3rd winger? That may be a very good comparison. Back to the advanced stats thing. It doesn't show "stupid". Just for example purposes, imagine a dman that pinches every single time no matter what. 3/4's of the time he keeps the puck in, 1/4 of the time he gives up a 2 on 1 or breakaway. He gets scored on more, but when he's on the ice his team gets more shots on, or directed towards the net. Advanced stats say he's great. I say he's an idiot.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Feb 26, 2015 18:20:39 GMT -5
It's been awhile but does Sekac remind you of Jan Bulis? The potential to score 15-20 goals but not more than a 3rd winger? Possibly, but he is still only 22, being used in a third line role, and adapting to a new league and home a long way away from Kladno. DSP does fill a need too. Just a matter of which kid develops further and has the bigger impact for their team going forward.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Feb 26, 2015 18:23:30 GMT -5
I get the amount of pages.* So thirsty for goals are we that even the mirage of an oasis is very powerful. Not saying Sekac was a mirage at all….just how parched we are. Thankfully, the deadline's not over. Marc "The Wire" Bergevin ain't done yet. *And if Sekac starts lighting it up in Anaheim, expect this thread to reach 40 pages. And, we have no bigger moves to talk about. I still remember hearing on July 1st that we had signed Jiri Sekac as a free agent and the google search was on big time. Now I miss him lol. I have always like DSP too though, and thought Anaheim drafted a good one in him.
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Post by habsask on Feb 26, 2015 18:50:56 GMT -5
Anybody read the comments below this EOTP article. It may be the 1st time I describe comments on a hockey board as pompous. It seems more important for some of the posters ( on that board, not here) to win the argument. One person was actually making the case that Montreal came out on the worse end of the Weise/Diaz deal because Diaz's possesion numbers were so good. (Diaz is on his 4th team in 2 years but no one mentions that). One poster reminded Berkshire that he didn't like that trade either but that was dismissed. It seems there is no middle ground. Hardcore analytics people seem to want to rely on numbers alone & if you don't buy in you're not worth talking to. Yes indeed. The best number, and the only number that counts, is your Won-Lost number and how far you go in the Playoffs. I'm a big believer in what Bill Parcels said: "You are what your record says you are, and never mind how you got that way." If Analytics can be used as one of the tools to help in winning the Cup all well and good. But to disregard the team's record and judge how good a team is strictly by analytics alone regardless of the Won - Loss record is nonsense.
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Post by frozone on Feb 26, 2015 19:03:15 GMT -5
I agree with you guys on the analytics - it's a useful tool but there's a limit to how much it should be relied on. I'm disappointed in the trade because Sekac has the intensity, competitiveness and speed that I would want for the playoffs. Sure, he has a wiry frame but he's very powerful and always seems to fight for every inch he could get. Plus he has some crazy skills to boot. So in what way is DSP an upgrade, other than his weight? Don't get me wrong, I think DSP is going to be a keeper. Considering he's technically obese according to the body mass index, he sure does have wheels. He gravitates to the dirtier areas of the ice and I expect him to lay many big hits that will make us all smile. www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzTcDEboFiwTwo very different players, but I just don't see how DSP is the better of the two.
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Post by habsask on Feb 26, 2015 19:12:18 GMT -5
Sekac interviewed on TSN690. said he thought he was brought in as a scorer but not given the opportunity (leading questions). Don't jump all over me. I understand the value of advanced stats. But Sekac had 2 assists in his last 20 games. Surely, despite disadvantages, he should have produced more than that over the last two months? Just once I'd like to see a player take at least some responsibility for his lack of production instead of blaming circumstances. Me too jkr. Speaking of opportunities Parenteau has been out for an extended period (mid Jan I think?). Maybe if Sekac had potted a few after Christmas he would have earned a chance to replace Parenteau on the top two lines. Just an observation.
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Post by habsask on Feb 26, 2015 19:48:23 GMT -5
I always think of the Sam Pollock mindset….and it's pre-mature to assert that Bergevin is in that class….but one can hope. "There could only be one boss, one person in charge of where the team and the organization were going to go," declared Pollock. "Responding to the media , or playing to the media, or listening to the fans is the quickest way to start losing. The fans are great, but the thing they respect most is a winner. Don't get me wrong, we were very conscious of our fans. But we ran the team. The thing that the fans know the least is managing a sports franchise. They have their favourites and strong emotional attachments with them. A sports administrator who wants to be successful can never think that way."So while we'll always have our opinions, barbed criticisms, and outright outrage…I think we have to look at the GM's track record. As BC has outlined, Berg certainly warrants support to date. Thanks for digging this out CH. And for BC's very good post as well. I feel the same way as Dis when he said this is the first time since Savard that the management of the team is really a team, with a boss and that they know what they are doing & are all on the same page with an honest to goodness plan. My take, admittedly not as well informed as many here as I don't follow the team so closely these days, is that MB, when he first came in, made an assessment of the talent on the team & in the system, decided what type of team he could realistically build from that and from then on all his decisions from hiring MT, all other coaches & management types and player moves have been based on that assessment & his plan. Further I think his belief is that the Habs did not have the forward talent say Chicago does but what they did have was a potentially great goalie & defenceman, an older but still outstanding defenceman & some very good defence prospects. In the near to mid term outstanding new blood up front was limited to Galchenyuk & Gallagher was a surprise. Outside of that it was Pacioretty & Plekanec. New forward talent was off in the more distant future. So MB has built a team around a defence oriented, counterattack approach at least from a present & mid-term perspective. Seems to me that the results have been good with this approach & that MT, despite some decisions we would disagree with, has done a reasonably good job of coaching up this type of team. Quite frankly I remain surprised at how well they are doing in the standings even factoring in the great season Price is having. After last season & 3/4 of this season I doubt very much that it's Price & then just pure blind luck. Anyhow that's my 2 cents. PS What I forgot to add is that DS-P may fit into the above type of team at the present time & in the near future better than Sekac does. I also wonder if MB signed Sekac partly with the idea that if Sekac didn't pan out right away on the Habs he could trade him for an NHL player who better fit the current Habs team.
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Post by franko on Feb 26, 2015 20:14:17 GMT -5
Seems to me that the results have been good with this approach & that MT, despite some decisions we would disagree with, has done a reasonably good job of coaching up this type of team. Quite frankly I remain surprised at how well they are doing in the standings even factoring in the great season Price is having. After last season & 3/4 of this season I doubt very much that it's Price & then just pure blind luck. I admit I don't understand MT's decisions sometimes, but the record speaks for itself. guess that's why MT's coaching and I'm . . . where I am.
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Feb 27, 2015 8:28:02 GMT -5
Sekac may very well be Jan Bulis where Smith-Pelly is more Shayne Corson. Both players had extended NHL careers but were different type of players that fit into different type of roles. We have a couple of potential Jan Bulis's but very few Shayne Corson's in the system.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 27, 2015 9:05:26 GMT -5
DSP = Turner Stevenson ... maybe ...
Cheers.
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Post by Tankdriver on Feb 27, 2015 9:36:52 GMT -5
To be honest, I wasn't too impressed with DSP last night. Sure he stands in front of the net and finishes his checks, but he is going to have to work on his conditioning this summer. He looked gassed after 20 seconds. Also I don't think he has that great of hands as the puck seemed to bounce off his stick a lot. Maybe it was nerves, but as Dis said - looks more like Turner Stevenson than Corson.
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Post by Polarice on Feb 27, 2015 10:03:33 GMT -5
To be honest, I wasn't too impressed with DSP last night. Sure he stands in front of the net and finishes his checks, but he is going to have to work on his conditioning this summer. He looked gassed after 20 seconds. Also I don't think he has that great of hands as the puck seemed to bounce off his stick a lot. Maybe it was nerves, but as Dis said - looks more like Turner Stevenson than Corson. The guy played 20+ minutes, no wonder he was gassed.
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Post by Tankdriver on Feb 27, 2015 12:38:51 GMT -5
Reaper, that's just Therrien trying to make his GM look good. I expect it to be down to 14-15 mins by the end of March.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 27, 2015 12:41:43 GMT -5
To be honest, I wasn't too impressed with DSP last night. Sure he stands in front of the net and finishes his checks, but he is going to have to work on his conditioning this summer. He looked gassed after 20 seconds. Also I don't think he has that great of hands as the puck seemed to bounce off his stick a lot. Maybe it was nerves, but as Dis said - looks more like Turner Stevenson than Corson. The guy played 20+ minutes, no wonder he was gassed. I didn't see the whole game, so please keep this comment in context, but I wonder if some aren't expecting too much from Smith-Pelly. I thought that ice time figure was unusual, so on checking NHL.com, they say it was 17:11, which is still a lot, especially for a brand new, third line type player. He was certainly given a good opportunity to display his wares. As mentioned, I didn't see enough of the game to judge his performance. While I was watching, he didn't stand out.
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Post by habsorbed on Feb 27, 2015 12:50:44 GMT -5
To be honest, I wasn't too impressed with DSP last night. Sure he stands in front of the net and finishes his checks, but he is going to have to work on his conditioning this summer. He looked gassed after 20 seconds. Also I don't think he has that great of hands as the puck seemed to bounce off his stick a lot. Maybe it was nerves, but as Dis said - looks more like Turner Stevenson than Corson. The guy played 20+ minutes, no wonder he was gassed. He also got some decent PP time - probably more than Sekac's total PP time for the season Can't say i saw any offensive threat from the guy. At least with Sekac there was a hope he would break out - too much talent not to. So MB better be working on getting a top 6 forward for the playoffs as from what i saw DSP ain't one.
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 27, 2015 13:14:05 GMT -5
I don't think Berg got DSP for his offensive prowess. If we end up facing the somewhat-surging Sens, he will come in very handy. We could've used some jam vs. the Rangers last year. Pretty sure that's what MB was thinking with the trade.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 27, 2015 14:15:24 GMT -5
I suspect any improved scoring is going to have to come from further development on the part of Galchy, Gally and the bottom 6.
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Post by Gogie on Feb 27, 2015 14:27:42 GMT -5
One comment I heard from the Canadiens' announcers early in the game was that they liked how DSP went straight to the front of the net on offensive zone plays, unlike a lot of our smurfs (they didn't say that last part).
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Post by blny on Mar 14, 2015 22:44:59 GMT -5
Sekac: 9 games with Ducks; he has 3 assists, no goals and no points in last 4 games. Fri he played only 7:48. 5 assists in last 30 games.
Above is tweet from Paul Hollingsworth.
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Post by PTH on Jun 6, 2016 18:47:23 GMT -5
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jun 6, 2016 19:49:20 GMT -5
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Post by seventeen on Jun 6, 2016 20:37:56 GMT -5
Weird. Guy seemed to have all the necessary skills, but they didn't translate at all. Not enough of a nose for the net? Just weird. Sekac impressed the hell out of me and flopped miserably. I think Smith-Pelley's useless and he turns into an uber scorer in Jersey, of all places. Either my judgment's going all to hell, or I've just entered the Twilight Zone.
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