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Post by Skilly on Apr 28, 2015 15:40:11 GMT -5
Player | GP | TOI | G | A | PTS | +/- | PP PTS | PP TOI | SH TOI | ES TOI | ES PTS | KARLSSON | 82 | 27:15 | 21 | 45 | 66 | +7 | 30 | 4:48 | 0:33 | 21:36 | 36 | DOUGHTY | 82 | 28:59 | 7 | 39 | 46 | +3 | 17 | 3:26 | 2:38 | 22:54 | 28 | SUBBAN | 82 | 26:12 | 15 | 45 | 60 | +21 | 21 | 3:41 | 2:09 | 20:21 | 39 |
So Karlsson doesn't play in short handed situations, which are defensive situations, and scores almost half his points on the PP, non-defensive situations. In ES/SH situations, PK Subban has more points per ice time than both Karlsson and Doughty. Doughty only leads the league in time on Ice and Corsi. There is no logical reason nor stat, that suggests that Subban shouldn't win the Norris hands down
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Post by frozone on Apr 28, 2015 16:04:47 GMT -5
I wonder if these awards haven't turned into popularity contests. The best example is the Selke award which supposedly goes to the best defensive forward in the NHL. It's now become an award for the forward with the most points, who happens to be a little better than average defensively. Bob Gainey wouldn't stand a chance today. Time for the voters to shake their heads and vote it properly. Having said that...why don't we have our own awards show, and pick the guys who actually deserve the awards. They may be the same people as the journalists choose, but maybe they won't. I'd have to look at all the defensive players to come up with more names, but I can think of Dominic Moore right now as perhaps being a good nominee for the Selke. Carey would still get my vote for Vezina and Hart. Dominic Moore would be a great choice ... Tomas Plekanec maybe ... Cheers. That's a good idea, seventeen. To me, there are only a handful of players that can truly excel defensively and offensively: Toews, Bergeron, Kesler, O'Reilly and Plekanec. Maybe add Dubinsky to that list also. I haven't seen enough of Couture and Pavelski to know how good they are defensively, but maybe they belong in that list too. After these guys, I would say that there's a second tier of very capable defensive players. Mike Fisher, Vermette, Stoll, Eller, Couturier, Brandon Sutter, Bolland, Jordan Staal, maybe also Paul Gaustad at one point in his career. Can't think of many defensive specialist wingers though... Chimera? Dupuis?
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Post by blny on Apr 28, 2015 16:13:52 GMT -5
I've griped about the Selke for years. it's become an award for centers only, and if you don't get 70 points as well you can forget it. Pacioretty's omission this year is ridiculous. An award, created for the best 2 way winger of his generation, has only been won by a winger 3 times in the last 20 plus years, and Lehtonen won it twice. It's a farce.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Apr 28, 2015 16:35:34 GMT -5
As far as the Norris is concerned, will we ever see another Rod Langway kinda player win it ... would Karlsson be able to put up his numbers if he weren't paired with Marc Methot ... Duncan Keith paired with Brent Seabrook ... there are a lot of excellent defensemen who don't put up the points ...
Cheers.
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Post by Disp on Apr 28, 2015 16:40:23 GMT -5
Everybody pretty much plays like Gainey now though.
Centre responsibility is much higher than winger too.
I'm fine with it.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Apr 28, 2015 16:42:15 GMT -5
I would trade Subban for at least a dozen other defence men in this league. Funny enough, there is not ONE player in the league I would trade Subban for one-for-one....
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Post by blny on Apr 28, 2015 16:43:24 GMT -5
Stevens was likely the last truly defensive defenseman to get nominated. Today's equivalent of Langway would likely be one of Hjalmarsson, Klein or McDonagh.
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Post by franko on Apr 28, 2015 16:50:47 GMT -5
Player | GP | TOI | G | A | PTS | +/- | PP PTS | PP TOI | SH TOI | ES TOI | ES PTS | KARLSSON | 82 | 27:15 | 21 | 45 | 66 | +7 | 30 | 4:48 | 0:33 | 21:36 | 36 | DOUGHTY | 82 | 28:59 | 7 | 39 | 46 | +3 | 17 | 3:26 | 2:38 | 22:54 | 28 | SUBBAN | 82 | 26:12 | 15 | 45 | 60 | +21 | 21 | 3:41 | 2:09 | 20:21 | 39 |
So Karlsson doesn't play in short handed situations, which are defensive situations, and scores almost half his points on the PP, non-defensive situations. In ES/SH situations, PK Subban has more points per ice time than both Karlsson and Doughty. Doughty only leads the league in time on Ice and Corsi. There is no logical reason nor stat, that suggests that Subban shouldn't win the Norris hands down this is the NHL you are talking about!
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Post by seventeen on Apr 28, 2015 19:56:48 GMT -5
I would trade Subban for at least a dozen other defence men in this league. Funny enough, there is not ONE player in the league I would trade Subban for one-for-one.... Price.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 22:10:13 GMT -5
I would trade Subban for at least a dozen other defence men in this league. Funny enough, there is not ONE player in the league I would trade Subban for one-for-one.... I guess I'd expect every fan of every team to say that about their second or third best player...
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Post by habsorbed on Apr 28, 2015 22:11:07 GMT -5
I think a Norris trophy should be for best defence an, not flashiest or best stats. Unfortunately there aren't quality defensive stats like there are goals, assists and plus/minus. Sub an definitely benefitted from Price and their forwards back checking. I would trade Subban for at least a dozen other defence men in this league. Name them!
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Post by habsorbed on Apr 29, 2015 0:22:45 GMT -5
some will argue that PK had Price behind him ... funny thing that . . . over and over again we hear that it's all Price . . . and maybe it is . . . Anderson had Karlsson in front of him . . . but where are the Senators now? the Habs are on to the second round, and the Sens are on to the second tee. When one starts to compare the player's team-mates to the other player's it becomes impossible to assess. But what we can do is compare apples to apples: see how the player performs compared to his own team-mates who all played on the same team. In that regard, Fancy Boy comes up short again. He has a mediocre plus/minus on the Sens at +7. Well behind team-mates Stone(+21) and Hoffman (+16). Perhaps more importantly his fellow Dmen were significantly better with Methot at +22 and Gryba at +11. Heck even Neil had a +5. Meanwhile, aside from Max at +38, PK at +21 is a close second on the Habs with DD and Weise at +22 and his fellow dman Markov at +22. The other dmen are far below: Emeiln +5, Gilbert +10, and Beau +9. So if one wants to argue that PK relies on Price, he still seems to do a much better job than his team-mates. Whereas Fancy Boy is unable to match his team-mates. What makes Fancy Boy's stats even worse is that he plays easy minutes. What would his plus/minus be if he played the defensive minutes of Methot and Gryba? Anyway you cut it, Fancy Boy's stats are not in the same league as PK's. It's actually an embarrassment that he is even nominated. It shows just how superficial the media's assessment is. All flash. They probably watch the hi-lites each night and see Fancy Boy with the offensive dash but don't watch the full game and realize he is a liability in his own end and can't play defence. He is a one dimensional player who's offensive stats are comparable to other dmen who can play at both ends of the rink. Doug Harvey must be rolling in his grave.
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Post by jkr on Apr 29, 2015 6:19:24 GMT -5
Funny enough, there is not ONE player in the league I would trade Subban for one-for-one.... I guess I'd expect every fan of every team to say that about their second or third best player... Subban is the best skater on the team. IMO the other skater that's close is Pacioretty. As someone else just posted, please give us the 10-12 D men you would trade Subban for.
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Post by Skilly on Apr 29, 2015 9:29:19 GMT -5
Funny enough, there is not ONE player in the league I would trade Subban for one-for-one.... I guess I'd expect every fan of every team to say that about their second or third best player... Not only is Subban our second best player, but he is our best defenseman. A defenseman that has been nominated for the Norris 2 out of the past 3 seasons. Given Subban's age, I'd say the number of defensemen that I'd trade him for can be counted on one or two fingers of one hand. (come to think of it, I'm having a hard time thinking of one right now ... )
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Post by Polarice on Apr 29, 2015 10:09:43 GMT -5
I guess I'd expect every fan of every team to say that about their second or third best player... Not only is Subban our second best player, but he is our best defenseman. A defenseman that has been nominated for the Norris 2 out of the past 3 seasons. Given Subban's age, I'd say the number of defensemen that I'd trade him for can be counted on one or two fingers of one hand. (come to think of it, I'm having a hard time thinking of one right now ... ) Agreed!! Besides his on ice contributions, a person should look at his off ice contributions. There are few people that does the community and charity work that he does at his age. In fact IMHO he is the face of the NHL. It would be their best interest to show off this kid as much as possible and winning his second Norris out of 3 years would be a start.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 10:16:05 GMT -5
I think a Norris trophy should be for best defence an, not flashiest or best stats. Unfortunately there aren't quality defensive stats like there are goals, assists and plus/minus. Sub an definitely benefitted from Price and their forwards back checking. I would trade Subban for at least a dozen other defence men in this league. Name them! Ekblad Weber Shattenkirk Ekman Larsson McDonagh Doughty Josi Keith Byfuglien I guess there are 9, I'd also really consider Karlsson. Subban is over-rated. Norris is voted on by media not by gm's, I'm guessing nine of the players listed above would not be dealt by their gm for our great defenceman. Fire away.
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Post by blny on Apr 29, 2015 10:19:47 GMT -5
Buff? Buff is a pylon. He's a forward masquerading as a defenseman. Consistently out of position.
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Post by seventeen on Apr 29, 2015 10:44:57 GMT -5
Ekblad Weber Shattenkirk Ekman Larsson McDonagh Doughty Josi Keith Byfuglien I guess there are 9, I'd also really consider Karlsson. Subban is over-rated. Norris is voted on by media not by gm's, I'm guessing nine of the players listed above would not be dealt by their gm for our great defenceman. Fire away. Josi - Hmm. Haven't seen enough of Josi to assess him. Weber - (giving up too many years, but solid player): Shattenkirk - (not in the same league, but a good dman) Ekman-larsson - Possible - that's a tough one. He is underrated and its hard to believe he's not yet 24 years old. McDonagh - again, possible, but I think I'd pass. Subban, despite the glaring errors he occasionally makes, is able to raise his game for big games. It was a long time ago, but I can still see John Tavares going around McDonagh and scoring in the WJC. I wish we still had both (sigh). Doughty - a tossup Keith - perhaps more overrated than many 'name' defensemen. Makes more mistakes than PK, but no one seems to make a big deal of them. Byfuglien? Probably the worst of your selection. Big, strong, good skater, good fighter, but prone to costly errors and poor control of his temmper. He lets his team down at the worst times. So of all the guys, there's no clear cut "Oh yeah, definitely" Karlsson should be in there as well, Hedman's had a good couple of years but isn't in that class yet. Some of those guys are better than PK in some areas and worse in others. The choice may well depend on what you want in a defenseman. PK's pretty good and deserves to be in that group of top 5 or 6 in the league. I don't believe there's a clear 'best' choice.
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Post by Skilly on Apr 29, 2015 10:46:54 GMT -5
Ekblad Weber Shattenkirk Ekman Larsson McDonagh Doughty Josi Keith Byfuglien Ekblad - really? A rookie. While he might turn out to be better do you think Florida is in a better position with Ekblad then we are with Subban? Weber - I don't know. He plays a different game than PK. He is a better defenseman, but I think PK is better at the transition game. Shattenkirk - The Blues would trade him for PK in the blink of an eye. OEL - Really good defenseman, I'd still take PK McDonagh - We made a mistake trading him, but he would complement PK, never replace him. Doughty - closest d-man on your list to the style of player PK is ... he gets rave reviews because of his international play. I think he is over rated, but that is just me. He is a +3 on a team that everyone felt was the next dynasty. Josi - I thought about Josi. I think I would actually consider that trade. But my biggest concern is that Markov is not Shea Weber. Josi might not fit well here, whereas I think PK does his thing regardless of his partner. Keith - Another I would consider. The thing that would scare me away is that Keith is 31 ... a good contract mind you, but still. Byfuglien - not a chance.
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Post by Polarice on Apr 29, 2015 11:45:18 GMT -5
Ekblad Weber Shattenkirk Ekman Larsson McDonagh Doughty Josi Keith Byfuglien I guess there are 9, I'd also really consider Karlsson. Subban is over-rated. Norris is voted on by media not by gm's, I'm guessing nine of the players listed above would not be dealt by their gm for our great defenceman. Fire away. Living in the west for the last 3 years I've see almost 500 games so I've seen all the west teams and their players. So.....Josi is the only one on that list that I would even consider being on par with PK.
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Post by blny on Apr 29, 2015 11:57:58 GMT -5
Josi seems to be a hybrid of Weber and the Subban type. He's a keeper. Would I trade straight up? The only benefit, for now, would be cost savings. I don't see him being appreciably better as a player.
IMO, it's a subjective list ... and that's fine. Wanting them instead of what we have is okay, but switching Subban out for any of them doesn't necessarily make us better on the ice and it's a HUGE impact off of it.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Apr 29, 2015 13:08:27 GMT -5
...yeah... when Subban wins it or is nominated it's because of a shortened season or because of Price or because it's the media voting, or because he's overrated...
When Keith, Lidstrom, Chara or Neidermayer wins it, it’s because they are great dmen.
Funny how that goes
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Apr 29, 2015 13:41:23 GMT -5
...yeah... when Subban wins it or is nominated it's because of a shortened season or because of Price or because it's the media voting, or because he's overrated... When Keith, Lidstrom, Chara or Neidermayer wins it, it’s because they are great dmen. Funny how that goes I was asking earlier about Rod Langway-type d-men and I actually keep coming back to Marc Methot and Jeff Petry ... granted they don't have the numbers Langway did (mind you, Langway's numbers are up there either) but I don't think they've played on as many successful teams as him ... what would Petry have been like had he been playing with another impact d-man ... I read what Franko posts about Methot and I honestly believe that Karlsson's Norris nomination is somewhat in part to Methot's return ... what things could Petry have accomplished had he either played with an impact partner on the blue line or had he been on a more talented team ... I feel the same way about Seabrook and Keith ... Seabrook gets credit, sure, but Keith ends up with the hardware ... does Subban owe anything to Markov by chance ... they didn't play the whole year together, granted, but still ... Cheers.
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Post by seventeen on Apr 29, 2015 13:42:44 GMT -5
We appreciate PK for everything he does, so to hell with the rest of the world.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Apr 29, 2015 15:58:43 GMT -5
I would trade Subban for at least a dozen other defence men in this league. Funny enough, there is not ONE player in the league I would trade Subban for one-for-one.... Yeah. A good sanity check on the Norris is would you trade Subban for either Karlsson or Doughty? My answer would be NFW. Karlsson is an elite offenive talent but Subban is pretty close and a far better and tougher all around dman. Doughty is super smooth but I still think Subban is the more impact player. He probably won't win it, but PK should win the Norris hands down.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 16:07:24 GMT -5
Buff? Buff is a pylon. He's a forward masquerading as a defenseman. Consistently out of position. Yet a vital player on a cup winning team, he's iffy, but I like what Buff brings to the table overall.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 16:12:18 GMT -5
Your biases towards your own player are strong. I'm just not a PK fan, probably never will be. He's the sole reason why the PP struggles, he gets a boatload of ice time because who else do we have that can? Trophies are based on stats alone, just like the Selke. I won't get into that trophy either, it's even more of a joke.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Apr 29, 2015 16:23:11 GMT -5
...and I'd say your anti-Subban bias is equally strong.
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Post by blny on Apr 29, 2015 16:34:34 GMT -5
Your biases towards your own player are strong. I'm just not a PK fan, probably never will be. He's the sole reason why the PP struggles, he gets a boatload of ice time because who else do we have that can? Trophies are based on stats alone, just like the Selke. I won't get into that trophy either, it's even more of a joke. Not even sure where to begin with that. 1. It's a 5 man unit, of which he is one part. 2. It's coached by a guy who was a minor league goon. 3. That coach is responsible for the system used, and methods employed on the ice. Not PK. 4. A lack of a true net presence is consistent them on the PP in recent years. 5. That lack can be made up for if you have more than one guy that can snipe. We don't have that. I'm not PKbiased to the point where I'm blind to other players. I'm also not a naysayer who's quick to jump on the slightest mistake because I'm aware that he isn't alone. Watch enough Keith and Doughty and you'll see plenty of errors. Watch Karlsson and you'll see a guy that pinches A LOT. PK plays in all situations. He gets his points, and he does it without being a liability. He moves the puck up ice well - though I'd like less one hand on the stick rushes. None of that is 'bias'. It's just simple fact. Yes, like it or not stats play a significant part in awards. As was pointed out by others, you also have to put them in context. When you put PKs numbers in context they play very well against his peers around the league.
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Post by CentreHice on Apr 29, 2015 17:21:00 GMT -5
Karlsson's latest big mistake occurred in Game 3 OT….which turned out to be too much for the Sens to overcome.
He was standing still at our blueline, when Emelin flipped it high…
He actually cowered/flinched as the puck came down off Prust….then was caught.
I wouldn't call it a tremendous effort on Prince Valiant's part to get back quickly, either.
I don't even think the commentators or pundits picked up on that.
Some players have so many media cheerleaders that miscues either aren't noticed…or are ignored. Doughty's another one in that category.
I remember Kelly Hrudey saying something like, "Doughty just doesn't make any mistakes…."
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