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Post by Andrew on May 22, 2015 18:07:18 GMT -5
I think I can provide some plausible possibilities to your 3 points. Point 1. - Let's see. They've hired a stats guy, a talent development guy and an extremely high profile coach, all without having a 'management team' eg GM, in place. Sound like pretty well par for the course to me. In other words, Shanahan is the management team. If anyone actually accepts the GM job, they'll be the guy looking like a bobblehead doll. Point 2. - We can't be sure that didn't happen. Kessel was on the market for a while, so his value is probably determined. We may be giving up Pleks, our first plus...(insert favourite sacrifice). There may be other parts to the deal. Point 3. - Just because they're in rebuilding mode doesn't mean they have to remove all talent. The important part to the trade for TO is the first rounder in a deep draft, plus whatever prospect may be included. The body, they probably have to take back for CAP reasons relating to the other team. You don't move $8MM without some salary coming back, but as we know, the Leafs don't care much about that. Besides, it's only one year, compared to Kessel's numerous years. Somehow this deal smells right to me. I think Berg has been trying to move Pleks for some time (my opinion only), and though Kessel's not a center, he is a scorer. Make that deal and no one can say Berg didn't get a scorer. My question is if he'll stay a scorer. You make some good points. I could be wrong on any or all of my arguments, which are ultimately just speculation. Concerning your third point I agree that Pleks could be of interest to the Leafs for the reasons you mention, and that they could flip him at the deadline if he's not in their plans to sign. I still don't believe that the 26th pick and Pleks is the type of value that would land Kessel, however, and that entertaining offers closer to the draft would yield their best return. Like most fans I'd love to see Bergevin make a big splash and land a star top 6 forward. Time will tell I guess.
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Post by folatre on May 22, 2015 19:00:30 GMT -5
To trade with Toronto would be a big surprise.
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Post by jkr on May 22, 2015 19:14:19 GMT -5
To trade with Toronto would be a big surprise. They tried it last year but Gorges nixed it.
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Post by Anardil1 on May 22, 2015 20:25:29 GMT -5
If this rumoured deal becomes reality, I will be one very unhappy Hab fan. This would put a huge black mark on the Berg's reputation as far as I'm concerned. This goes against everyting that the Berg has said publically. Build through the draft, character is a strong point of emphasis. Strong two way players. Kessel goes against all that is supposedly of upmost importance to what Bergevin has said about his team building philosophy. To Kessel I say: Stay the hell away from the Habs!
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Post by CentreHice on May 22, 2015 21:00:00 GMT -5
Yes, that's the biggest point against Kessel....his two-way effort. How could Therrien demand it of the other players and look the other way just for Kessel?
Wouldn't it be something if Kessel could turn it around, though....and put in the effort.....
Change of scenery, prove everyone wrong.....
He never really did that against Boston, though....did he....
He's got such a wicked shot...and great vision....too bad. We need goals!
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Post by seventeen on May 22, 2015 21:53:25 GMT -5
If this rumoured deal becomes reality... This would put a huge black mark on the Berg's reputation as far as I'm concerned. It wouldn't to me because I don't believe anything he says. Not that I consider that a negative. It's just a fact of life. Berg is not going to tell us his plans and if he deliberately misleads us, he doesn't care. So the only way to take what he says, is simply not to listen. When he says a guy is playing really well....I'm not sure, because he could be setting up his fellow GM's for a trade, raising his players value. He's never going to say he's disappointed with someone, because that will degrade that player's value. That's the way it is. If you trade for Kessel, you know you're not getting a character player, but you know you're getting a scorer. Actually, not only do we not know if this rumour has any factual basis to it, we also don't have a clue who's coming back our way. All we know is that our first and Pleks are being shipped out...if, in fact, that is true. But at least it's given us 3 pages of speculation at a dull time of year.
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Post by habsorbed on May 22, 2015 21:54:57 GMT -5
The rumour makes no sense. Have a hard time seeing either GM being part of this deal. But equally as important is i don't see Kessel agreeing to it. Kessel has a no trade clause. So he gets to pick 8 teams. He's American. He loves his money and low taxes like all players. He's a baby and would love to get away from a media circus. Why would he possibly put Mtl on his list.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on May 22, 2015 22:23:41 GMT -5
Twitter = too much drama ... sigh ... Phil Kessel can score goals and he was scoring under Randy Carlyle ... I really feel there are character issues, and if he doesn't sort them out under Mike Babcock, it won't be the coach who ends up leaving ... on the other hand, Kessel could be pumped at the prospect of playing for Babcock ... I'm not so sure we can take on the cap hit and sign Jeff Petry, et al ... but he scores goals ... lots of them ... #hardchoice
Cheers.
Edit: I'd focus on Petry before anything else ...
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Post by habsorbed on May 22, 2015 23:49:01 GMT -5
If I'm the Leafs (and thank god I'm not!) I take my time and see if the best coach in the universe coaching Canada's team can do something with the current roster. If by December or January it is clear that the coach cant help these losers than it is the players and I start clearing house. Shanny and Babcock have set the bar low for the next few years saying this is gong to be painful. I just don't see why they would sell a major asset at this point and not to the Habs and not for Pleks. Time is on their side as they have made expectations very low for the lowly Leafs fans who will always be drinking the Kool aid.
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Post by seventeen on May 23, 2015 0:24:08 GMT -5
So let's say it's not Kessel. If you were packaging Pleks and the 26th pick, who would you target?
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Post by habsorbed on May 23, 2015 0:49:55 GMT -5
So let's say it's not Kessel. If you were packaging Pleks and the 26th pick, who would you target? The name that keeps popping up is Eric Staal (maybe Spezza - he had a good April ). But I think a MB should look at the top 3 forwards of all teams, particularly those out of the playoffs who may be looking for a rebuild. Offer Pleks or DD, a first (and maybe a second) and a prospect. It would help the other team with cap space particularly as Pleks will be gone after a year and allow them to work on their future. The idea is to dump one of our second line centres and give up some future talent (prospects and draft choices) for a top tier forward, preferably a centre.
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Post by blny on May 23, 2015 2:08:55 GMT -5
I don't think Pleks is necessarily going to land you a top 3 forward from many of the non playoff teams. Secondary scoring with good two way play, or a scorer with some warts.
Coyotes - Doan, Gagner, Hanzal. - Nahhhh Bruins - Krejci, Bergeron, Lucic, Marchand, Ericsson. - would you gamble that Ericsson could rekindle the offense he showed in Dallas? Sabres - Kane, Moulson, Ennis - just got Kane, he's not moving. Stuck with Moulson. Ennis may be next captain. Hurricanes - Staal, Semin, Staal - Eric's been discussed. I'd do it. Semin? No chance. J Staal? Too much $ for a third liner. Avalanche - Landeskog and Duchene are fixtures. No interest in ROR. Iggy? I'd do it - straight up. Blue Jackets - Johansen, Dubinsky, Foligno, Hartnell. - Johansen is face. Dub and Foligno just signed ltd's. Hartnell is interesting, but 4 yrs? Stars - Spezza, Seguin, Benn. I think they're all fixtures. Spezza's new deal and his back problems would scare me away. Oilers - RNH, Hall, Eberle - Maybe you pry one of those 3 by throwing in a lot of futures. Do you want any of those 3 is other question. Panthers - Bolland, Bjugstad, Jagr. Nope. Kings - Kopitar, Gaborik, Carter. Cap issues might make a ltd with Kopitar difficult for them. Would have to give A LOT. Devils - Zajac, Elias, Cammalleri - no. Sharks - Thornton, Marleau, Couture, Pavelski. Old guys with NMCs who've said they won't waive. Couture would fit in with core age.
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Post by franko on May 23, 2015 7:00:00 GMT -5
I don't think Pleks is necessarily going to land you a top 3 forward from many of the non playoff teams. Secondary scoring with good two way play, or a scorer with some warts. Coyotes - Doan, Gagner, Hanzal. - Nahhhh Bruins - Krejci, Bergeron, Lucic, Marchand, Ericsson. - would you gamble that Ericsson could rekindle the offense he showed in Dallas? Sabres - Kane, Moulson, Ennis - just got Kane, he's not moving. Stuck with Moulson. Ennis may be next captain. Hurricanes - Staal, Semin, Staal - Eric's been discussed. I'd do it. Semin? No chance. J Staal? Too much $ for a third liner. Avalanche - Landeskog and Duchene are fixtures. No interest in ROR. Iggy? I'd do it - straight up.Blue Jackets - Johansen, Dubinsky, Foligno, Hartnell. - Johansen is face. Dub and Foligno just signed ltd's. Hartnell is interesting, but 4 yrs?Stars - Spezza, Seguin, Benn. I think they're all fixtures. Spezza's new deal and his back problems would scare me away. Oilers - RNH, Hall, Eberle - Maybe you pry one of those 3 by throwing in a lot of futures. Do you want any of those 3 is other question. Panthers - Bolland, Bjugstad, Jagr. Nope. Kings - Kopitar, Gaborik, Carter. Cap issues might make a ltd with Kopitar difficult for them. Would have to give A LOT. Devils - Zajac, Elias, Cammalleri - no. Sharks - Thornton, Marleau, Couture, Pavelski. Old guys with NMCs who've said they won't waive. Couture would fit in with core age.interesting. sure glad there are guys on the board to do all the work and all I have to do is mock it. or agree with it as the case may be. but mocking is much more fun Staal's cap hit of 8.25 scares me away, even though it's only for one year. I don't think he brings us to the level we need to be to win the Cup . . . sure he was on a crappy team, but stats-wise he was a was with Pleks last year. I'd love Couture . . . always did . . . but he's the future of the team and I don't see the Sharks moving him. but I'd love him on the team (yup, man crush on another team's player). Iggy -- sure. Spezza? no thanks but he's going nowhere. Kings players? I think they're going to chip around the edges. they'd love us to take Richards off their hands . . . um, no thanks.
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Post by franko on May 23, 2015 7:05:30 GMT -5
as usual, I go back and forth re: Kessel. he can score goals . . . but he's lazy. he can score goals . . . but defense isn't in his vocabulary. he can score goals . . . but he's a coach killer (well, maybe that isn't a bad thing ). he can score goals . . . well, he can score goals . . . and we need them!
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Post by HFTO on May 23, 2015 10:59:39 GMT -5
Phat Phil Is the kind of scorer we need I'd love to see Therriens face every time he does a flyby past a defender it would be priceless..... He thinks the media in Toronto is bad he'd really get eaten alive ....they would have to put a media ban on him then he'd be fine....Therrien on the other hand his head would explode....go get him MB ...lol
hFTO
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Post by seventeen on May 23, 2015 11:31:36 GMT -5
No one's mentioned Ryan O'Reilly. Headache for Colorado. PLeks and a first about right. Becomes a contract headache for us and maybe not a pure scorer, but a very good all around player.
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Post by blny on May 23, 2015 12:04:07 GMT -5
No one's mentioned Ryan O'Reilly. Headache for Colorado. PLeks and a first about right. Becomes a contract headache for us and maybe not a pure scorer, but a very good all around player. I did, in my list. Kinda buried. Called him "ROR". Not interested. I think he's one of the biggest egos in the league, and has done nothing to earn it.
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Post by frozone on May 23, 2015 15:06:54 GMT -5
No one's mentioned Ryan O'Reilly. Headache for Colorado. PLeks and a first about right. Becomes a contract headache for us and maybe not a pure scorer, but a very good all around player. I did, in my list. Kinda buried. Called him "ROR". Not interested. I think he's one of the biggest egos in the league, and has done nothing to earn it. I dunno, I think ROR could be the perfect replacement for Pleks. It all hinges on whether he truly is a head case or not. I can't say for sure, but I think there's a strong possibility that his agent is just a shark and the contract mess has kinda ruined O'reilly's reputation. Take a look at Subban - the holdout, the arbitration mess and the massive contract signing... I'm sure plenty of people out there have wrongfully used those events to read into his personality. What I do know is that ROR is a great player and he's still young and durable. He's one of those players that puts up 2nd line points, but also gets major defensive responsibilities. Imo, he'd be a great replacement, although ideally I'd like to trade DD. Galch at #1C, ROR #2 and Pleks would slide down to #3.
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Post by blny on May 23, 2015 15:32:02 GMT -5
I did, in my list. Kinda buried. Called him "ROR". Not interested. I think he's one of the biggest egos in the league, and has done nothing to earn it. I dunno, I think ROR could be the perfect replacement for Pleks. It all hinges on whether he truly is a head case or not. I can't say for sure, but I think there's a strong possibility that his agent is just a shark and the contract mess has kinda ruined O'reilly's reputation. Take a look at Subban - the holdout, the arbitration mess and the massive contract signing... I'm sure plenty of people out there have wrongfully used those events to read into his personality. What I do know is that ROR is a great player and he's still young and durable. He's one of those players that puts up 2nd line points, but also gets major defensive responsibilities. Imo, he'd be a great replacement, although ideally I'd like to trade DD. Galch at #1C, ROR #2 and Pleks would slide down to #3. But he's making first line all star money, and has never done enough to earn it. I think he could be a real Kesler type, and that's a good thing, but he's not taking a pay cut to put himself in line with the salary for that sort of role.
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Post by frozone on May 23, 2015 16:22:16 GMT -5
I dunno, I think ROR could be the perfect replacement for Pleks. It all hinges on whether he truly is a head case or not. I can't say for sure, but I think there's a strong possibility that his agent is just a shark and the contract mess has kinda ruined O'reilly's reputation. Take a look at Subban - the holdout, the arbitration mess and the massive contract signing... I'm sure plenty of people out there have wrongfully used those events to read into his personality. What I do know is that ROR is a great player and he's still young and durable. He's one of those players that puts up 2nd line points, but also gets major defensive responsibilities. Imo, he'd be a great replacement, although ideally I'd like to trade DD. Galch at #1C, ROR #2 and Pleks would slide down to #3. But he's making first line all star money, and has never done enough to earn it. I think he could be a real Kesler type, and that's a good thing, but he's not taking a pay cut to put himself in line with the salary for that sort of role. I agree with that 100%. I just wonder whether it was his agent that fought for that contract or was it his own big head. As for his play, I'd take him on the Habs any day of the week.
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Post by PTH on May 23, 2015 17:29:50 GMT -5
Given how Bergevin is on record as saying "Galchenyuk may never be the center we thought he'd be", it seems to be that if we move Plek, it'll be for an upgrade at center, not to make room for Galch.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on May 24, 2015 13:36:15 GMT -5
This is getting into the "too much drama" category really fast ... I had time to think about it and I really hate the timing ... right on the heels of a playoff exit ... ref Danslescoulisse, they come across like they have an in with the organization ... their scoops rarely come to fruition ... I'm thinking Marc Bergevin will address the lack of scoring but we may not know about the deal until it goes public, but that's only a hunch ... I'd be surprised if anything goes down ... draft day might be a different story ...
Cheers.
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Post by PTH on May 24, 2015 13:59:56 GMT -5
And yet, there's no actual noise coming from an actual source.
And even the website with the rumor says it all comes from a single source, so really, this is wild speculation on all counts.
---
One thing though: apparently Sekac and Plekanec had issues over the winter, and it would be strange to see Plekanec traded after he had some conflict with Sekac. I suspect Sekac just wasn't enough of a dedicated pro, and that's what caused both the conflict and the trade.
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Post by seventeen on May 24, 2015 14:46:51 GMT -5
--- One thing though: apparently Sekac and Plekanec had issues over the winter, and it would be strange to see Plekanec traded after he had some conflict with Sekac. I suspect Sekac just wasn't enough of a dedicated pro, and that's what caused both the conflict and the trade. That sounds interesting Paul, and possibly troubling at the time. Do you know anything more about it?
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Post by PTH on May 24, 2015 15:01:34 GMT -5
Nope. Just stumbled on it and then googled it, and found that it was a thing around February 2015. (just google Sekac Plekanec Conflict/conflit depending on the language you want)
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Post by seventeen on May 24, 2015 16:45:20 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 21:29:14 GMT -5
Phony baloney, I think goals are important, but taking on a lazy floater is not what the Habs need. They have enough get you there players, need a guy who steps up and leads and scores in playoffs.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on May 27, 2015 8:25:23 GMT -5
Phony baloney, I think goals are important, but taking on a lazy floater is not what the Habs need. They have enough get you there players, need a guy who steps up and leads and scores in playoffs. If they have room for Andrei Kostitsyn, I'd hope they'd have room for Charles Hudon ... the honest effort would be there, at the very least ... the downside would be adding another small forward ... Cheers.
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Post by frozone on May 27, 2015 9:01:58 GMT -5
Phony baloney, I think goals are important, but taking on a lazy floater is not what the Habs need. They have enough get you there players, need a guy who steps up and leads and scores in playoffs. If they have room for Andrei Kostitsyn, I'd hope they'd have room for Charles Hudon ... the honest effort would be there, at the very least ... the downside would be adding another small forward ... Cheers. After getting demolished by Tyler Johnson, I see how valuable an undersized forward can be. Let's hope that Hudon will be the NHL's next great small forward.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 20:10:20 GMT -5
If they have room for Andrei Kostitsyn, I'd hope they'd have room for Charles Hudon ... the honest effort would be there, at the very least ... the downside would be adding another small forward ... Cheers. After getting demolished by Tyler Johnson, I see how valuable an undersized forward can be. Let's hope that Hudon will be the NHL's next great small forward. Not sure Hudon has the wheels of Johnson, but at this point skill and speed can indeed kill. Andrei K can stay in Siberia for all I care.
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