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Post by Skilly on Jun 3, 2015 14:08:13 GMT -5
heck, we scored almost as many goals on the PK in the playoffs as we did PP goals. We scored the exact same ... 2 PP goals, 2 SH goals In the regular season we scored 40 PP goals , 7 SH goals. We scored on 2.7% of the time we were shorthanded in the regular season, and 5.6% of the times we had a powerplay in the playoffs. If it wasn't true, it would be laughable....
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jun 3, 2015 14:10:23 GMT -5
Love the signing! I don't think that any of our D will be moved to free up cap space. We know that MB loves his depth on D, and to have less than 8 capable NHL defensemen going into the playoffs is not his style. That's nice and all, but in a capped world having 8 NHL calibre dman is a bit of a luxury. And it could come at a cost in other areas. They key is to look at your 3rd pair and determine how much value they provide over a cheaper or replacement level player. IMO, Emelin and Gilbert are our 5th and 6th dmen in terms of ability and they cost us almost $7 million in combined salary. That's A LOT!! We save money with Beaulieu who gives us great value, but that's expensive depth. And does anyone even know who Chicago's 5th and 6th D are? I had to look it up. You can get by with cheap, average players on the bottom pair if the top 4 is good enough. And those guys aren't hard to find either internally or externally. Plus you end up relegating Tinordi and Pateryn to AHL status. I think we could easily have them as our 3rd pair over Emelin and Gilbert without missing a beat. And then find the depth later if you need it. Too much depth can be bad if it's too expensive and it limits your flexibility in other areas.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jun 3, 2015 14:55:31 GMT -5
Tell that to Max Pacioretty, dude ... not sure of the meaning, Dis. that Max is on a leash and isn't allowed to go all out? or that he doesn't have the players at his side to make a difference? agree. or that Max had almost 40 goals. true . . . in a bunch of 2-1ish games. we can't run and gun, but I'm sure coaching holds our scoring down (see: PP). heck, we scored almost as many goals on the PK in the playoffs as we did PP goals. and if the complaint is that the coach can't score goals and that the players on the ice were too set in their ways/predictable, I'll agree . . . so the coach should maybe . . . I don't know . . . put different players on the ice? Sigh ... I was implying that Max will score 35-odd goals despite the defensive game plan Michel Therrien is using ... apologies, as I just misunderstood your post ... probably won't be the last time I do this ... Cheers.
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Post by Skilly on Jun 3, 2015 15:04:17 GMT -5
Plus you end up relegating Tinordi and Pateryn to AHL status. I think we could easily have them as our 3rd pair over Emelin and Gilbert without missing a beat. And then find the depth later if you need it. Too much depth can be bad if it's too expensive and it limits your flexibility in other areas. This. I would have been ok with Subban, Markov, Beaulieu, Emilin, Gilbert, Tinordi and Pateryn if we used the 5.5 million to add offense. There is still a chance, I guess, to ship some of that depth out to add the offense, I just am very pessimistic that MB will do that
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Post by franko on Jun 3, 2015 15:35:46 GMT -5
heck, we scored almost as many goals on the PK in the playoffs as we did PP goals. We scored the exact same ... 2 PP goals, 2 SH goals In the regular season we scored 40 PP goals , 7 SH goals. We scored on 2.7% of the time we were shorthanded in the regular season, and 5.6% of the times we had a powerplay in the playoffs. If it wasn't true, it would be laughable.... couldn't remember . . . thought we got one more PP goal than PK goal. sad sad sad. CH, there's how we'll get 100 points next season . . . by improving the PP to . . . what . . . 22%?
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Post by franko on Jun 3, 2015 15:38:56 GMT -5
And does anyone even know who Chicago's 5th and 6th D are? I had to look it up. do they even have a 5th and 6th D?
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Post by franko on Jun 3, 2015 15:42:26 GMT -5
not sure of the meaning, Dis. that Max is on a leash and isn't allowed to go all out? or that he doesn't have the players at his side to make a difference? agree. or that Max had almost 40 goals. true . . . in a bunch of 2-1ish games. we can't run and gun, but I'm sure coaching holds our scoring down (see: PP). heck, we scored almost as many goals on the PK in the playoffs as we did PP goals. and if the complaint is that the coach can't score goals and that the players on the ice were too set in their ways/predictable, I'll agree . . . so the coach should maybe . . . I don't know . . . put different players on the ice? Sigh ... I was implying that Max will score 35-odd goals despite the defensive game plan Michel Therrien is using ... apologies, as I just misunderstood your post ... probably won't be the last time I do this ... Cheers. I agree with you, Dis; Max will score the goals. and I realize that goal scoring is down these days too. I think he could get a few more if MT hadn't gone to the JM school of coaching (well, I guess in some ways he didn't, as JM would have preferred a bunch of 1-0 games). admittedly I'm not all that gonzo about the style, but it works when Carey is on his game. and 1st place? can't argue with that either. but that PP -- all year and into the playoffs . . .
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jun 3, 2015 15:48:15 GMT -5
And does anyone even know who Chicago's 5th and 6th D are? I had to look it up. do they even have a 5th and 6th D? Exactly! It will be interesting if Chicago can ride their top 4 all the way to a Cup. Keith is averaging over 30 minutes a game, while Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, and Oduya are over 25 minutes. That's called riding your horses. Depth? We don't need no stinking depth!
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Post by Lord Bebop on Jun 3, 2015 16:09:31 GMT -5
Yeah that trade looks better now... Excited to see what he can do for a full season. $5.5million is about right compared to what Engelland, Orpik and Niskanen got last year.... We seem to have a lot of money tied up on defence.. No big FA signings this year I guess as we got not a lot of space to play with... Expect Bergeron to be trading alittle?? I'm certainly hoping so. A guy like Yakupov would be a substantial risk, but I could see Edmonton being able to use Pleks and Emelin while their young stars develop maturity. After the WC. Eberle isn't going anywhere. I still believe the easiest way to improve our scoring is to improve our zone clearance system. Come out of our zone, with possession, with speed and we'll score 20 more goals a year. Completely agree... We are are so focused on trying to add a top scorer but I think we got the talent.... With a power play that worked our guys goal totals would look a lot better
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Post by HABSINFL on Jun 3, 2015 16:15:55 GMT -5
I would look to trade Emelin now to get out from his contract and get Tinordi into the mix. I like the Petry signing but I'd like to see more cap space available to use up front. Emelin out Tinordi in, would work for me.
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Post by HABSINFL on Jun 3, 2015 16:26:44 GMT -5
I would look to trade Emelin now to get out from his contract and get Tinordi into the mix. I like the Petry signing but I'd like to see more cap space available to use up front. Emelin out Tinordi in, would work for me.
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Post by seventeen on Jun 3, 2015 16:57:41 GMT -5
do they even have a 5th and 6th D? Exactly! It will be interesting if Chicago can ride their top 4 all the way to a Cup. Keith is averaging over 30 minutes a game, while Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, and Oduya are over 25 minutes. That's called riding your horses. Depth? We don't need no stinking depth! Certainly not as long as you have no injuries, or the special duct tape finally isn't enough to hold together the Black Knight from Monty Python. If you can manage it, in a shortened period (the playoffs) you can go with your horses and pray you don't get an injury. If Seabrook gets hurt, can you replace him with Kyle Cumiskey or David Rundblad? No wonder Quenneville is just using them 5 minutes a game. So, yes, we don't need no steenkeen depth on defense. Light up those votive candles. Now would I be willing to go into a season with 7 d-men instead of 8 if it improves the forward crop? You bet, because I think we'd spend more quality time in the offensive end and that cuts down the chances of injuries to everyone. Not to mention making watching the games a whole lot more fun. PS. The Hawks were using Kimmo Timmonen instead of Rundblad, but the Ducks were owning the Hawks while he was on, so Timmonen now sits in place of Rundblad (who's no screamin hell either).
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Post by blny on Jun 3, 2015 16:59:30 GMT -5
Chicago's third pair is a definite weakness. Cumiskey is an adventure when he's on the ice as well.
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Post by HFTO on Jun 3, 2015 17:28:04 GMT -5
Surprised he didn't go UFA really surprised .....good signing right in line with second tier D .....I hope for our sakes this means they can finally take 7-8 mins off of Markovs plate and have him fresh for the playoffs.
HFTO
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Post by Skilly on Jun 3, 2015 19:21:44 GMT -5
Surprised he didn't go UFA really surprised .....good signing right in line with second tier D .....I hope for our sakes this means they can finally take 7-8 mins off of Markovs plate and have him fresh for the playoffs. HFTO If this is the plan, then why didn't they do just that for the last 19 games of the season , after Petry was acquired? Markov averaged 24:54 a game this season. He played more than that in 10 games after Petry was acquired. Or why didn't they do that in the 12 playoff games?
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Post by seventeen on Jun 3, 2015 20:05:47 GMT -5
Berg doesn't coach. He just gets the players for MT. I'd been lobbying for a while to rest Markov. Getting Petry was an ideal solution (except for the fact he shoots right). It could have been done. When Beaulieu was playing so well, it could have been done. Obviously one needs to work with Markov to have him buy in, but I don't think that's a problem. Get him down to 20 minutes a night, which is still lots.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 20:35:14 GMT -5
While the price was certainly not a bargain, to find a quality defenceman that can skate and play all facets of the game well are a rarity. If all three of Tinordi, Beaulieu and Pateryn are ready to make the step then Gilbert and Emelin both become trade bait. There may also be a shocking surprise deal with Subban going somewhere that wants a marketable star and is willing to give up a couple big pieces. Heck even Edmonton would love to have him, unlikely that MB trades Subban, but don't discount the return he could fetch. Would you take Shea Weber and a 1st for Subban? Or Draisaitl and Hall for PK, Plekanec and Tinordi? Just throwing darts, in the end I have complete faith in Mr. Bergeron and his posse.
Back to Mr. Petry, his addition as well as Beaulieu's coming out party will allow Markov to play many many less minutes this season, hopefully giving him fresh legs all season and into the playoffs. For once we now have a team and culture that players are clamouring to be a part of, even if they're getting hosed by the government tax-wise. Speaking of, why can't teams have a cap equalizer when it comes to the taxes, it's an unfair disadvantage or advantage depending on where you sign.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jun 3, 2015 21:08:26 GMT -5
Surprised he didn't go UFA really surprised .....good signing right in line with second tier D .....I hope for our sakes this means they can finally take 7-8 mins off of Markovs plate and have him fresh for the playoffs. HFTO If this is the plan, then why didn't they do just that for the last 19 games of the season , after Petry was acquired? Markov averaged 24:54 a game this season. He played more than that in 10 games after Petry was acquired. Or why didn't they do that in the 12 playoff games? Because MT is the coach and he has to trust you. It is why young players have difficulty with the habs imo.
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Post by Skilly on Jun 4, 2015 5:15:45 GMT -5
If this is the plan, then why didn't they do just that for the last 19 games of the season , after Petry was acquired? Markov averaged 24:54 a game this season. He played more than that in 10 games after Petry was acquired. Or why didn't they do that in the 12 playoff games? Because MT is the coach and he has to trust you. It is why young players have difficulty with the habs imo. Ok, if THAT is the case, I believe MT is still the coach ... So if he didn't trust Petry for 31 games (to rest Markov or lower his minutes) what makes everyone think he will trust him now?
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Post by Willie Dog on Jun 4, 2015 7:50:33 GMT -5
Because MT is the coach and he has to trust you. It is why young players have difficulty with the habs imo. Ok, if THAT is the case, I believe MT is still the coach ... So if he didn't trust Petry for 31 games (to rest Markov or lower his minutes) what makes everyone think he will trust him now? I don't know if he will trust him or not, but a 6 year 33 million dollar contract might just force him to increase his trust. Also Petry did prove that he was capable. He took some time to adjust to the system and with the habits of his team mates. I am pretty sure he will become one of MTs go to guys on defense. This will bode well for the Habs.
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Post by blny on Jun 4, 2015 7:59:16 GMT -5
Petry took PP time away from Markov. There's no reason to think that isn't the plan moving forward. Heck, if Beaulieu is in the fold next year the staff has less reason to dump the full PP on Subban and Markov. They'll have 2 other puck movers they can go to.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jun 4, 2015 8:41:32 GMT -5
Berg doesn't coach. He just gets the players for MT. It should be more than that. Sports have changed. There is too much information and analytics gathered at the management level that needs to be passed on to the coach. It's like Moneyball. Some coaches may have earned the right to be "left alone" but Michel Therrien isn't one of them. If Bergevin and his staff are seeing things or analyzing data that impacts how a player is used, then Berg needs to be in MT's office telling him that. And if Berg thinks that Markov needs to have his minutes managed to keep him fresh then that's what should happen. The old school approach should be over. Good organizations have strong feedback loops where information and insight is passed between management and coaches to get the most out of the talent.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jun 4, 2015 9:00:13 GMT -5
There may also be a shocking surprise deal with Subban going somewhere that wants a marketable star and is willing to give up a couple big pieces. Heck even Edmonton would love to have him, unlikely that MB trades Subban, but don't discount the return he could fetch. Would you take Shea Weber and a 1st for Subban? Or Draisaitl and Hall for PK, Plekanec and Tinordi? Just throwing darts, in the end I have complete faith in Mr. Bergeron and his posse. I remember saying that the asking price for a big, no.1 centre would be Carey Price ... if that's the case, what would be the price if a name like PK Subban were to become available ... two-time Norris nominee and one-time winner (so far) ... it would be a blockbuster for sure ... It's true ... I think the culture was always there ... every game I've been to in Montreal resembles a festival of sorts ... not only does Montreal have a winning atmosphere now, but there's no drama either ... nice changes since Marc Bergevin took over ... Cheers.
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Post by seventeen on Jun 4, 2015 10:22:39 GMT -5
Berg doesn't coach. He just gets the players for MT. It should be more than that. Sports have changed. There is too much information and analytics gathered at the management level that needs to be passed on to the coach. It's like Moneyball. Some coaches may have earned the right to be "left alone" but Michel Therrien isn't one of them. If Bergevin and his staff are seeing things or analyzing data that impacts how a player is used, then Berg needs to be in MT's office telling him that. And if Berg thinks that Markov needs to have his minutes managed to keep him fresh then that's what should happen. The old school approach should be over. Good organizations have strong feedback loops where information and insight is passed between management and coaches to get the most out of the talent. I totally agree that should be the principle, but on the Habs, that hasn't been the practice, from observation on high at least. When you look at how Bourque got used so much, how Sekac was not used, and on and on, either Berg and Therrien are in full agreement or they're at odds but it's under the surface. I suspect the former, but it still doesn't always make sense. One can generally count on players with bigger contracts or players with more experience getting more ice time, without enough regard to talent levels or development requirements.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jun 4, 2015 11:58:36 GMT -5
We now have 5 dmen eating up 27MM of our cap hit. It's a lot. Was Jeff Petry really a priority on this team ? Good player and all no question there, but I feel we are extra padding an area that was ok when we have glaring needs elsewhere. To me this move does not propel us to another level. We were very good defensively and mediocre offensively so why spend more on D....
Anyhoo...
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Post by Skilly on Jun 4, 2015 12:08:23 GMT -5
Petry took PP time away from Markov. But he didn't, not significantly anyway. Subban is the barometer to measure everyone against, cause he plays virtually all the PP time. We had 68:18 PP time in the playoffs and Subban played 56 minutes of that. Markov played 42 minutes. Petry played 26:30. In the regular season, Markov played 87% of the time Subban played on the ice ... in the playoffs he played 75% of the ice time of Subban. So Petry took 12% of the ice-time ... which isn't near enough. The problem, in my opinion, is Markov also played the second most shorthanded ice time minutes. I don't think he needs to play those minutes.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jun 4, 2015 12:32:06 GMT -5
We now have 5 dmen eating up 27MM of our cap hit. It's a lot. Was Jeff Petry really a priority on this team ? Good player and all no question there, but I feel we are extra padding an area that was ok when we have glaring needs elsewhere. To me this move does not propel us to another level. We were very good defensively and mediocre offensively so why spend more on D.... Anyhoo... I'm thinking, now that the defence corps is set, Marc Bergevin might look at going heavy on drafting forwards in this draft ... I don't know if that's his game plan, or not, but he's got defensive prospects waiting in the AHL, too ... there was more than just a financial price to signing Jeff Petry ... it cost Bergevin two draft picks in a very deep draft ... then he might trade up with someone, but that's easier said than done (despite the Plekanec rumours just a little while ago) ... first, he'll need to find a dance partner who actually has a player he needs and vice-versa ... secondly, there's the cap issue ... as it is now Bergevin has $7 million and change ... that's going to be eaten up a bit more once he re-signs Alex Galchenyuk and Nathan Beaulieu ... and if he wants to re-sign Torey Mitchell, that will cost him, too ... if he wants to trade for some scoring help then he'll more than likely have to free up some cap room ... again, easier said that done ... good to see you checking, Doc ... Cheers.
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Post by blny on Jun 4, 2015 12:36:55 GMT -5
Petry took PP time away from Markov. But he didn't, not significantly anyway. Subban is the barometer to measure everyone against, cause he plays virtually all the PP time. We had 68:18 PP time in the playoffs and Subban played 56 minutes of that. Markov played 42 minutes. Petry played 26:30. In the regular season, Markov played 87% of the time Subban played on the ice ... in the playoffs he played 75% of the ice time of Subban. So Petry took 12% of the ice-time ... which isn't near enough. The problem, in my opinion, is Markov also played the second most shorthanded ice time minutes. I don't think he needs to play those minutes. He did against Tampa. He might not have against Ottawa, but by the Tampa series Jeff was logging significant pp time. I agree about the short handed minutes, and mentioned it earlier. Give those to Petry. Let his younger fresher legs handle that stuff.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jun 4, 2015 12:50:21 GMT -5
We now have 5 dmen eating up 27MM of our cap hit. It's a lot. Was Jeff Petry really a priority on this team ? Good player and all no question there, but I feel we are extra padding an area that was ok when we have glaring needs elsewhere. To me this move does not propel us to another level. We were very good defensively and mediocre offensively so why spend more on D.... Anyhoo... Totally agree, but I still like the signing. Petry is a top 4 calibre player in his prime and it's a reasonable cap hit for a guy like that. But Berg stiil has problems to solve. On D, I think the larger problem is we have $7 million tied up in our 5th and 6th dmen (Emelin at $4.1m and Gilbert at $2.8m). That's way too much, especially when you consider that Tinordi and Pateryn can get the same job done for a fraction of the cost. IMO, Berg needs to move at least one of them, preferably Emelin, to free up cap space to use up front. I think Berg's fixation on depth is troublesome. Injuries happen but you can always find depth players, and if PK blows out his knee we're screwed anyway. Those guys are hogging cap space that we can use elsewhere and we have decent options internally to replace them. The scoring is still the glaring issue. Berg has more work to do there.
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Post by Disp on Jun 5, 2015 5:32:31 GMT -5
Having Petry should allow us to spend less time in our end. Which means more time in the other teams end. Which should mean more goals over the course of the season.
As long as our goal to post ratio does not remain the same as it was during the playoffs, we should be all right.
A top ten pp would be nice too.
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