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Post by blny on Jul 15, 2015 16:08:40 GMT -5
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Post by Lord Bebop on Jul 15, 2015 16:17:22 GMT -5
Glad he signs but I have no idea where he fits on our depth chart....could last season be called a step back?? I hope he steals a spot from Emelin so we can use him as a trade chip...oh and I hope he stops running around being a goon..not his game... Emelin would be a good game model to style his game after..timely hitting agitating style but safe defensive game...no fighting plz
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jul 15, 2015 16:33:10 GMT -5
Weird that it is a two way deal. He has to clear waivers, and I am sure someone would take a chance on picking him up.
So, the Habs must plan on keeping 8 guys up.
Chucky the only one left now. A big rash of signings today across the league as QOs expire.
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Post by Lord Bebop on Jul 15, 2015 16:55:38 GMT -5
Weird that it is a two way deal. He has to clear waivers, and I am sure someone would take a chance on picking him up.So, the Habs must plan on keeping 8 guys up. Chucky the only one left now. A big rash of signings today across the league as QOs expire. I think we tried sneaking Hainsey and Beauchemin down a few years back. We didn't like how that turned out so..plz no waivers this time around
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jul 15, 2015 17:03:10 GMT -5
Weird that it is a two way deal. He has to clear waivers, and I am sure someone would take a chance on picking him up.So, the Habs must plan on keeping 8 guys up. Chucky the only one left now. A big rash of signings today across the league as QOs expire. I think we tried sneaking Hainsey and Beauchemin down a few years back. We didn't like how that turned out so..plz no waivers this time around I almost added to my post something to the effect that "I hope the Berg does not try to pull a Hainsey here".
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 17:44:55 GMT -5
I think it's just a qualifying offer, if you don't make it he becomes a UFA? They can negotiate a deal that's one way. I don't get why they don't like this kid so much, he isn't nearly as bad as some of their veterans have been. Maybe his dad annoys the crap out of them
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Post by franko on Jul 15, 2015 17:50:51 GMT -5
Maybe his dad annoys the crap out of them I don't think MT likes him which annoys ME
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Post by Lord Bebop on Jul 15, 2015 17:56:56 GMT -5
I think it's just a qualifying offer, if you don't make it he becomes a UFA? They can negotiate a deal that's one way. I don't get why they don't like this kid so much, he isn't nearly as bad as some of their veterans have been. Maybe his dad annoys the crap out of them I misunderstood...I thought this meant he accepted the qualifying offer we had to file July 1st....maybe I'm wrong here
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Post by seventeen on Jul 15, 2015 18:13:49 GMT -5
He did sign a 1 year , 2 way deal. No dollars mentioned yet.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jul 15, 2015 18:46:10 GMT -5
I think it's just a qualifying offer, if you don't make it he becomes a UFA? They can negotiate a deal that's one way. I don't get why they don't like this kid so much, he isn't nearly as bad as some of their veterans have been. Maybe his dad annoys the crap out of them I misunderstood...I thought this meant he accepted the qualifying offer we had to file July 1st....maybe I'm wrong here His QO expired today, so he likely just accepted it to get a deal done. His QO should have been for at least $850K. Hope he can finally make his Mark and stick this season. See what I did there, lol? Berg loves competition in camp. That is eight guys on D and Barberio in the mix. That is competition. My worry is Tinner does not get enough ice time sitting as a scratch. Hard to develop and win that elusive confidence not playing.
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Post by blny on Jul 15, 2015 19:02:37 GMT -5
Bourni's deal is for 600k at the nhl level. hockey's cap is saying that Tinordi's deal at the nhl level is for 850k.
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Post by blny on Jul 15, 2015 19:10:53 GMT -5
We all know how Berg loves depth on D, but imo there are just too many third pair guys. Top 4 is essentially locked in.
Markov-Subban Beaulieu-Petry Emelin-Gilbert Tinordi-Pateryn
Emelin and Beaulieu can swap in-game pretty easily. Pateryn has his multi year deal, so he's essentially a lock for third pair rhd after Gilbert imo. I don't look at the ahl depth as guys that have passed Tinordi at this point. He's got to make a big jump this year and really force their hand. While we all think he should be up playing, none of us can really say he's jumped up and taken it. He needs to do that.
When you look at third pairs around the league, if we go ahead with what we have it's one of the most expensive but also likely one of the best. Definitely a double-edged sword. We'd all love to see one or both go, and maybe help address scoring issues. While we saw what Sharp got in return, I don't think we're going to turn Emelin or Gilbert into a legit top 6 scoring threat. We'd be more likely to find that trade with Beaulieu, and I'm not interested in moving him unless the return is fantastic.
Still, we've got 4 NHL capable d pairs. IMO, it's too much. The scales are tilted somewhat.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jul 15, 2015 21:55:08 GMT -5
D depth is great if you need it or if you can convert it into addressing another need. Hope the Berg is shopping a bit right now. 7 of those guys with Barberio in the wings should be enough.
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Post by PTH on Jul 15, 2015 22:25:00 GMT -5
About Hainsey, remember that we lost him on re-entry waivers: in short, he passed waivers early in the season when everyone has a full roster, it's come re-entry time, when there are 29 other teams looking to fill needs, replace injured guys, etc, that it's tougher.
Luckily, there are no more re-entry waivers, so Tinordi could still start the year in the AHL, but if Tinordi gets called up and plays enough to require waivers, we're essentially stuck keeping him in the big leagues (unless he's regressed to the point he'd clear waivers...)
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jul 15, 2015 23:18:38 GMT -5
I would LOVE to find a way to trade Emelin and Gilbert and go with Tinordi and Pateryn as the 3rd pair. Best case is that Jarred forces the issue in camp, as Berg loves to say, which could make it happen. But even absent that it's the right thing to do for the organization. I think we are going to have one of the most talented top 4 group in the league, with Beaulieu and Petry on the 2nd unit. So why not use the 3rd pair for development? Tinordi and Pateryn are younger, cheaper, and better IMO than Emelin and Gilbert.
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Post by habsorbed on Jul 16, 2015 0:05:56 GMT -5
I would LOVE to find a way to trade Emelin and Gilbert and go with Tinordi and Pateryn as the 3rd pair. Best case is that Jarred forces the issue in camp, as Berg loves to say, which could make it happen. But even absent that it's the right thing to do for the organization. I think we are going to have one of the most talented top 4 group in the league, with Beaulieu and Petry on the 2nd unit. So why not use the 3rd pair for development? Tinordi and Pateryn are younger, cheaper, and better IMO than Emelin and Gilbert. I agree. But when was the last time a kid forced the issue in a Habs camp resulting in a trade of vet?
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jul 16, 2015 8:28:06 GMT -5
This is the job of Bergevin. To lead. People were talking last week about how Berg hasn't really changed the core he inherited from Gainey/Gauthier. That's not a bad thing, IMO, because the core is pretty good. The issue is developing and advancing the young talent we do have where possible.
Right now there are no young forwards in the organization that are being blocked - Scherbak, McCarron, Hudon, Gregoire still need time, so there's not much Berg can do other than tread water with the likes of DSP, Mitchell, Flynn, Bournival. He can make a trade, but so far the deal just isn't there.
But HE can make more forward-thinking moves on the back end. He seems sold on Pateryn as an NHL player, but right now he's the 4th RD behind Gilbert. Tinordi has more to prove, I guess, but he's not far behind Emelin in terms of ability and he has better upside and he's cheaper. The problem with Emelin is the contract, but this is an area that Berg needs to deal with.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jul 16, 2015 9:35:13 GMT -5
To me, Tinordi appears to need to work on a couple of things. He needs to be able to make faster, better decisions and keep plays simple. In order to do this at the NHL game and pace, he needs NHL ice time. He also has to gain confidence in himself and gain that trust of his coach. Again, that won't happen from the Michael Ryder paper-airplane command centre. There is a lot of talk of "make or break", but the team has a very busy blueline with 7 one-way deals and Tinordi and Barberio wanting an invite in too. Barring injuries or trades, this team will start with 8 defensemen up since the three young ones (Pateryn, Tinordi and Beau) all need to clear waivers. Two guys will sit a lot, unless MT does move to a rotating lineup with his third pairing (does he have a good history of that? not entirely convinced). Beaulieu received good regular ice time and solid mentoring from the likes of Gonchar and he went from this same unstable, uncertain status to a guy who is pretty well earned his spot and ice time. That took part of a season. Given the opportunity, I feel Tinordi can too. But he is going to make mistakes along the way. The key will be in how both he and the coach react to those mistakes.
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Post by jkr on Jul 16, 2015 10:12:50 GMT -5
About Hainsey, remember that we lost him on re-entry waivers: in short, he passed waivers early in the season when everyone has a full roster, it's come re-entry time, when there are 29 other teams looking to fill needs, replace injured guys, etc, that it's tougher. Luckily, there are no more re-entry waivers, so Tinordi could still start the year in the AHL, but if Tinordi gets called up and plays enough to require waivers, we're essentially stuck keeping him in the big leagues (unless he's regressed to the point he'd clear waivers...) I remember this Hainsey thing too & I was PO'd because I felt then that Gainey was being unnecesarily lax. If I remember correctly I think there were other guys he he could have brought up. I remember a guy named Cote ( don't recall his first name) that had been up to the big club before. Kinds of sums up Gainey's tenure with the Habs IMO.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jul 16, 2015 11:17:22 GMT -5
To me, Tinordi appears to need to work on a couple of things. He needs to be able to make faster, better decisions and keep plays simple. In order to do this at the NHL game and pace, he needs NHL ice time. He also has to gain confidence in himself and gain that trust of his coach. Again, that won't happen from the Michael Ryder paper-airplane command centre. There is a lot of talk of "make or break", but the team has a very busy blueline with 7 one-way deals and Tinordi and Barberio wanting an invite in too. Barring injuries or trades, this team will start with 8 defensemen up since the three young ones (Pateryn, Tinordi and Beau) all need to clear waivers. Two guys will sit a lot, unless MT does move to a rotating lineup with his third pairing (does he have a good history of that? not entirely convinced). Beaulieu received good regular ice time and solid mentoring from the likes of Gonchar and he went from this same unstable, uncertain status to a guy who is pretty well earned his spot and ice time. That took part of a season. Given the opportunity, I feel Tinordi can too. But he is going to make mistakes along the way. The key will be in how both he and the coach react to those mistakes. Makes me feel, hopefully, that Bergevin is laying the groundwork for a trade to deal with the surplus. As you said, we will probably start the year with 8 dmen with nobody eligible for waivers. It's just bad asset management to have Tinordi sitting in the press box when he clearly needs the ice time to develop or just elevate his trade value. I agree with Tinordi's decision-making but that should come with ice time. I also think he's a far better puck-carrier than Emelin. Maybe not as strong as Alexei, who ended up playing OK in the playoffs, but better offensive instincts to go along with his big frame. Definitely worth developing and it's frustrating that Berg and Therrien have consistently made it hard for him to get a real shot.
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Post by frozone on Jul 16, 2015 11:20:22 GMT -5
About Hainsey, remember that we lost him on re-entry waivers: in short, he passed waivers early in the season when everyone has a full roster, it's come re-entry time, when there are 29 other teams looking to fill needs, replace injured guys, etc, that it's tougher. Luckily, there are no more re-entry waivers, so Tinordi could still start the year in the AHL, but if Tinordi gets called up and plays enough to require waivers, we're essentially stuck keeping him in the big leagues (unless he's regressed to the point he'd clear waivers...) I remember this Hainsey thing too & I was PO'd because I felt then that Gainey was being unnecesarily lax. If I remember correctly I think there were other guys he he could have brought up. I remember a guy named Cote ( don't recall his first name) that had been up to the big club before. Kinds of sums up Gainey's tenure with the Habs IMO. I think the guy that you're referring to is JP Cote, who I always thought was an excellent defender. Slow as molasses, but big, tough, responsible and effective. According to hockeydb, he never had a negative +/- season in his career in North America (from 1998 to present). His only 2 negative seasons came when he was playing in the German DEL league from 2009 to 2011. I think he deserved a longer look in the NHL, but that's just me. Coincidentally, he's also the guy who ended Blake Geoffrion's career.
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Post by franko on Jul 16, 2015 12:14:32 GMT -5
I was PO'd at the way Cote was handled. I was at his first game (or at least one of his firsts) and thought he did reasonably well in the game. then he was sent back down to the Dogs and quickly became yet another forgotten d-man.
I thought with MB those days were done.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jul 16, 2015 12:20:07 GMT -5
I was PO'd at the way Cote was handled. I was at his first game (or at least one of his firsts) and thought he did reasonably well in the game. then he was sent back down to the Dogs and quickly became yet another forgotten d-man. I thought with MB those days were done. Cote was a rock with the Dogs though. Not quick by any means, but old school defensive defenseman.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 16, 2015 12:24:04 GMT -5
I remember this Hainsey thing too & I was PO'd because I felt then that Gainey was being unnecesarily lax. If I remember correctly I think there were other guys he he could have brought up. I remember a guy named Cote ( don't recall his first name) that had been up to the big club before. Kinds of sums up Gainey's tenure with the Habs IMO. I think the guy that you're referring to is JP Cote, who I always thought was an excellent defender. Slow as molasses, but big, tough, responsible and effective. According to hockeydb, he never had a negative +/- season in his career in North America (from 1998 to present). His only 2 negative seasons came when he was playing in the German DEL league from 2009 to 2011. I think he deserved a longer look in the NHL, but that's just me. Coincidentally, he's also the guy who ended Blake Geoffrion's career. I looked up JP Côté only last week ... his progression path kind of reminded me of Greg Pateryn's tenure ... just turned off the car as TSN690 was taking opinions on what to do with Jared Tinordi ... to the TSN690 crew, Tinner is now behind (in no particular order) Subban, Markov, Emelin, Gilbert, Petry, Beaulieu, Pateryn and Barberio ... that puts him at #9 in the pecking order and he has to clear waivers before going to St John's ... didn't hear any of the callers, so I don't know that the general gist is out there ... Cheers.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jul 16, 2015 12:35:08 GMT -5
Interesting look at our younger defensemen, and a little stats dabbling into their age and their NHL games played:
Barberio (25 years old) - drafted 152nd 2008 - 103 games played Pateryn (25 years old) - drafted 128th 2008 - 20 games played (played full 4 years in NCAA, so would expect the number to be a bit lower) Tinordi (23 years old) - drafted 22nd 2010 - 43 games played Beaulieu (22 years old) - drafted 17th 2011 - 87 games played (64 last season)
Now, you expect first rounders to have greater and quicker success; however, I don't this is as bad a "make and break" for Tinordi as some may suggest. He is still only 23. He does not put up big numbers or skate like the wind, so his contributions are a bit harder to assess from just reading the stats pages. You have to watch his games. You often hear draft gurus like TT and others refer to you will only be able to properly assess a draft five years later. Well that point is now for Tinordi; however, I don't think the door closes immediately with him. The challenge is that the Berg has to fill a roster that can help his team win. While he wants Tinordi to success and take his rightful spot, the Berg won't give it for free at the cost of setting the team too far back either. Berg and his management crew are a pretty hockey savvy bunch, so I am sure they have an idea on how they see this playing out. It is definitely a big camp for a lot of defensemen though.
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Post by Lord Bebop on Jul 16, 2015 15:30:51 GMT -5
Weird that it is a two way deal. He has to clear waivers, and I am sure someone would take a chance on picking him up. So, the Habs must plan on keeping 8 guys up. Chucky the only one left now. A big rash of signings today across the league as QOs expire. My guess is tinordi asked for the 2 way so he will be playing in the NHL whether for us or being claimed by someone who needs him
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Post by Skilly on Jul 16, 2015 15:51:02 GMT -5
About Hainsey, remember that we lost him on re-entry waivers: in short, he passed waivers early in the season when everyone has a full roster, it's come re-entry time, when there are 29 other teams looking to fill needs, replace injured guys, etc, that it's tougher. Luckily, there are no more re-entry waivers, so Tinordi could still start the year in the AHL, but if Tinordi gets called up and plays enough to require waivers, we're essentially stuck keeping him in the big leagues (unless he's regressed to the point he'd clear waivers...) I remember this Hainsey thing too & I was PO'd because I felt then that Gainey was being unnecesarily lax. If I remember correctly I think there were other guys he he could have brought up. I remember a guy named Cote ( don't recall his first name) that had been up to the big club before. Kinds of sums up Gainey's tenure with the Habs IMO. If I recall correctly, when Gainey lost Hainsey on waivers, it was Cote that was called up to fill the roster spot.
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Post by folatre on Jul 16, 2015 20:15:41 GMT -5
About Tinordi, it would be ideal if he play great in camp and Therrien supports him. Then Bergevin has to talk with his 1000 contacts in the league and find someone to take Emelin or Gilbert.
If you think of season before Montreal won in 93, Pat Burns played young defensemen (Brisebois 22, Schneider 23, Odelein 23, Haller 22).
In cap based league, it is hard to win with 3rd d-pair making money like this.
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Post by PTH on Jul 16, 2015 22:36:12 GMT -5
I remember this Hainsey thing too & I was PO'd because I felt then that Gainey was being unnecesarily lax. If I remember correctly I think there were other guys he he could have brought up. I remember a guy named Cote ( don't recall his first name) that had been up to the big club before. Kinds of sums up Gainey's tenure with the Habs IMO. If I recall correctly, when Gainey lost Hainsey on waivers, it was Cote that was called up to fill the roster spot. I think Gainey was just too old-school.... He'd have just said "you call up the guy who deserves it most, period."
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Post by jkr on Jul 17, 2015 6:51:48 GMT -5
I remember this Hainsey thing too & I was PO'd because I felt then that Gainey was being unnecesarily lax. If I remember correctly I think there were other guys he he could have brought up. I remember a guy named Cote ( don't recall his first name) that had been up to the big club before. Kinds of sums up Gainey's tenure with the Habs IMO. If I recall correctly, when Gainey lost Hainsey on waivers, it was Cote that was called up to fill the roster spot. It's been a while but I think I was ticked because I thought they could have brought Cote up without losing him on waivers. Gainey took an unnecessary chance & lost Hainsey for nothing.
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