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Post by franko on Sept 28, 2015 14:44:31 GMT -5
I get the logic mind you; they want him to be a center, and the only spot realistically open to him was as a left-winger. I think he could have played, and played well, in the NHL as a left-winger, but if your long term goal is to have him down the middle... well, I guess he never really had a chance. look how well that's worked for AGal
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Sept 29, 2015 8:22:49 GMT -5
Rethink by the coach or the GM? Either one would be a move forward IMO, though I'd prefer the latter. To clarify, I'd like Berg to rethink his coaching options. I have no disagreements with Bergevin except for his head coaching choices. I'm trying to think of what other options he has and it's difficult ... Guy Boucher is in Europe ... or, does he wait until Patrick Roy's gig is up in Colorado ... there are only a few candidates that fit the criteria and some of the better ones are already working elsewhere ... Cheers.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Sept 29, 2015 9:55:50 GMT -5
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Sept 29, 2015 10:02:51 GMT -5
A piece about the three most likely scenarios for Tinordi as pre-season creeps to an end and decision(s) will have to be made. Nothing we have not really talked about, but it is becoming a lot more timely now. rabidhabs.com/three-possible-paths-jarred-tinordi
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Post by Doc Holliday on Sept 29, 2015 12:04:04 GMT -5
Frankly from all the pre-seasons games I've seen so far, I am unimpressed with our prospects. Sure, sure, we've seen a few flashes here and there by some, but absolutely none of them made a true statement to claim an NHL spot (aside from Condon).
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Sept 29, 2015 12:18:39 GMT -5
Frankly from all the pre-seasons games I've seen so far, I am unimpressed with our prospects. Sure, sure, we've seen a few flashes here and there by some, but absolutely none of them made a true statement to claim an NHL spot (aside from Condon). Agreed on both fronts. I wonder how much of this is a factor of them looking at the players under contract and realizing there is no room at the inn right now (even if Fleischmann is not signed). There really were/are no spots that were available to a prospect unless they drastically outplayed a number of guys with considerably more NHL experience. And with Patches' recovery coming along nicely, that does not offer a short term spot for a talented winger either.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Sept 29, 2015 15:47:44 GMT -5
Frankly from all the pre-seasons games I've seen so far, I am unimpressed with our prospects. Sure, sure, we've seen a few flashes here and there by some, but absolutely none of them made a true statement to claim an NHL spot (aside from Condon). Enter Tomas Fleischmann ... Cheers.
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Post by HFTO on Sept 29, 2015 20:24:32 GMT -5
Doc I was thinking the very same thing.....must say I am pretty disappointed overall with this camp.
I have no illusions about the talent that seriously had a shot for a spot though most were on the bottom 9 ... Fact is nobody has stood out or pushed for a spot anywhere!.... A few will make it by default no dout. No slight but with all due credit when DD is one of your best players in the 3 spot with mid to avg wingers what does that say about this teams evolution?.... They aw not there yet!
Hey the preseason is a crap shoot but unless the top 2 lines take off and really take off we are in for more of the same especially if MT continues his anti possession coachind philosophy Kudos for his results but his goalie has not been 100% 3 yrs in a row and bad luck aside the burden he bares is a factor. HFTO..
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Post by frozone on Sept 29, 2015 23:22:34 GMT -5
I agree in that this preseason has been very underwhelming as far as our prospects go, but mostly because our pro prospects really underperformed. Ghetto, Holloway, Thomas, Dumont, Tinordi, Carr... even DLR. These were the prospects that realistically should have been the most ready to challenge for a spot on the big club, so it was disappointing to see that some key guys are not as ready as we expected.
However, I didn't think it was all disappointing. I did see some very encouraging things in McCarron, Hudon, Lernout, Barberio, Johnston, Deitz too. And Pateryn, if he's still considered a prospect, should be on the team now. He's shown more than enough over the past few years and imo he's had a great camp.
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Post by habsorbed on Sept 30, 2015 1:35:52 GMT -5
I wasn't and am not expecting the prospects to be factors this year. Send them down and let them mature. Any realistic run will be as a result of past NHL players coming into their own. The central figures will be Chuck and Petry; and if Semin gets at all close to his old form. If they are able to improve this team's top 6 forwards and top 4 D we're in good shape. PK could be better than last year. And the fourth liners, from what i can see, are better, then we are ready to contend. Don't need the prospects now. Real wild card is Kassian and I find him the biggest disappointment of the preseason as I have high expectations. But I don't blame him at this point. I don't think MT has used him properly - has anyone said that of MT before?
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Post by seventeen on Sept 30, 2015 2:00:38 GMT -5
Yes, if one drills down a little bit, the disappointments came from guys who we probably shouldn't have a lot of expectations for though there are a couple of guys who could have performed better. Ghetto, Holloway, Thomas, Dumont and Carr are either lower draft picks or free agents and the odds are against those players making it. Thomas was obtained in return for Danny Kristo who seems to be turning into a bust. Tinordi is the one guy who should be playing at a better level and isn't, so he's the main disappointment.
McCarron didn't disappoint, IMO, Hudon is looking good as did Lernout, Dietz and Johnston. Again, what do we expect these guys to turn into? McCarron is a bottom 6 guy at worst and maybe a second line two way player at best. Scherbak was injured, so he'll have to impress in St. John's. We have a good number of guys who can become capable NHL'rs, but not stars by any stretch. You normally have to draft higher to get those types. the 2007 draft year was an anomaly for us and difficult to repeat. Our first 3 choices were impact players and that's extremely rare. Our most offensively creative prospect right now may be Reway and he wasn't in this camp, and the same for Lekhonnen. Anyway, I think there are still reasons to be hopeful, but I'm not looking for another PK or Patches out of these guys.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Sept 30, 2015 7:13:16 GMT -5
Doc I was thinking the very same thing.....must say I am pretty disappointed overall with this camp. I have no illusions about the talent that seriously had a shot for a spot though most were on the bottom 9 ... Fact is nobody has stood out or pushed for a spot anywhere!.... A few will make it by default no dout. No slight but with all due credit when DD is one of your best players in the 3 spot with mid to avg wingers what does that say about this teams evolution?.... They aw not there yet! Hey the preseason is a crap shoot but unless the top 2 lines take off and really take off we are in for more of the same especially if MT continues his anti possession coachind philosophy Kudos for his results but his goalie has not been 100% 3 yrs in a row and bad luck aside the burden he bares is a factor. HFTO.. If things are this bad then is it the prospects or is it development ... seems we open that can of worms every so often ... Cheers.
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Post by madhabber on Sept 30, 2015 7:38:15 GMT -5
I don't know what everyone is complaining about. The kids came in to camp knowing that there was no room on the big team. It doesn't stop them from trying hard, but it does play in the back of their minds. Patches is hurt and the team went and got Fleischmann to replace him, (just in case).
Guys like Hudon, McCarron, Carr, Lernout, Dietz did have good showings throughout camp. Some are more ready than others. Certainly didn't expect McCarron or Lernout to come in and earn a spot. They're just out of juniors. The rest, like Holloway, Thomas, Ellis, Bennett, I hold no hope for them to ever make this team so I'm not surprised or disappointed.
My disappointment is in the utilization of some of these guys. Rather than put a guy like Flynn on a top line with Pleks and Gallagher, why not just use Hudon, Sven or Carr. Give them all a try. See how they do. They are top 6 in the AHL. If they are going to succeed in the NHL, it will be as top 6 also, not as 4th liners. But Therrien's always done this, and pretty much most coaches we've ever had. They'd rather use Mathieu Darche, Moen, Prust and now Weise in their top 6. Those guys are only good there in very short spurts.
As mentioned, Reway and Lehkonnen are not present, and with Sherbak who's been injured and not ready either are the most skillful kids we have.
But it doesn't matter this year, because there is no room. We are not at that point. If everything goes according to plan, we are contenders. That's why I think a guy like Condon is going back to the AHL. No time for experiments. Unless Toker soils the bed sheets, we need the experienced guys this year.
Banner #25 should be going up in October next year.
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Post by BadCompany on Sept 30, 2015 8:58:26 GMT -5
I don't think the prospects disappointed, aside from perhaps Tinordi and maybe Scherbak. I had high hopes for Scherbak, but he got hurt and never really got to showcase himself. But the rest of them played pretty much at their level, if you ask me. I expected McCarron to be good, and he was. I expected Hudon to just a notch below NHL caliber, and in my opinion he was. The rest came as advertised (at least in my own mind). I really don't expect much from Thomas, Andrighetto, Carr and so on, so I can't say I am disappointed in their play.
We also tend to forget just how young our team really is. Gallagher, Galcheynyuk, Beaulieu, Smith-Pelly, De la Rose, even Kassian... they're all under 24 or younger. And of course the key veterans, like Price, Pacioretty and Subban, are still very much in their prime. So it's not like it's Andre Savard filling out the roster with a bunch of 30 year olds like Reid Simpson and Shaun Van Allen.
The key prospects are already on the team, or right on track, if you ask me.
At this point I have to say my biggest concern is losing Mark Barberio to waivers. I think he's been much better than Tinordi, and perhaps even better than Gilbert. And he's still only 25. Nevermind Tinordi being claimed, I'm not so sure Barberio makes it through. Which would be a crying shame.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Sept 30, 2015 9:36:06 GMT -5
Good to see you checking in, Madhabber ... don't be a stranger ... My disappointment is in the utilization of some of these guys. Rather than put a guy like Flynn on a top line with Pleks and Gallagher, why not just use Hudon, Sven or Carr. Give them all a try. See how they do. They are top 6 in the AHL. If they are going to succeed in the NHL, it will be as top 6 also, not as 4th liners. But Therrien's always done this, and pretty much most coaches we've ever had. Kind of reminds me of the chance they gave Michael Bournival not so long ago ... this is where I see Charle Hudon Sven Andrighetto and Daniel Carr ... This, here, explains my response to Doc ... why else would they give a tryout to a veteran like Tomas Fleischmann ... do Marc Bergevin and Michel Therrien feel that their prospects simply aren't ready, or (like I was saying earlier) is it another case of bringing in a veteran forward like Gary Leeman (remember him) ... interesting comment by Bergevin on the prospects, though ... "(the prospects) tell us when they're ready ... by that I assume he's talking about the prospects on-ice performance ... Hey, if Fleischmann makes the team (and it looks like he will at this point, anyway) there will be even less room ... welcome back, man ... Cheers.
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Post by Tankdriver on Sept 30, 2015 10:31:33 GMT -5
There has been no surprises at camp this year. I do wish that the team would open up on the creativity and try to produce more offense but with the same type of coach in both leagues that won't be happening. I was wondering what you guys think of on how long Lefebvre lease is with the AHL team. I mean if he doesn't make the playoffs this year, I believe that will be 4 years in row. Eventually you got to produce right?
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Post by seventeen on Sept 30, 2015 11:34:46 GMT -5
I mean if he doesn't make the playoffs this year, I believe that will be 4 years in row. Eventually you got to produce right? Bergevin's patience with him has gone far beyond where it should have IMO. In fact, I'll state that he should never have been hired in the first place. He came with a reputation of an up and comer (according to Habs Management because I never heard that from anyone else), yet when you actually look at his CV, it was as an assistant coach on losing teams. Duh. The one conclusion we can come to is that he is able to speak both languages and that was the difference. Were there any other candidates? How good are you win you finish first in a race with one contestant? Perhaps I'm being harsh, but I just could not see any reason to hire him in the first place and entrust your future to him. Same thing with the hiring of Nick Carriere. His resume is about as weak as they come. Has Berg seen something that indicates he can develop into a career coach, or was it just an incestual hiring? Why can't we bring in a proven winning coach? The CHL is full of them. There's a couple in the Q that fit the bill perfectly, yet we avoid them. Berg just seems to have a blind eye when it comes to assessing coaching talent. Good point made above about the use of Weise and Flynn etc on the top 6, when you have the perfect candidate in Hudon. Kassian on the 4th line? Sheesh. I haven't been a fan of his, but talk about setting him up to fail. Therrien seems to do this deliberately. I wouldn't be surprised if he reads the criticisms and then deliberately does exactly what he's been criticised for....because he can. It fits his reputation. Naturally, that speaks volumes about the guy, but what can you say?, he's got his $2MM per year contract for the next 3 years so he can snub his nose at us all day. He better pray that Price doesn't get injured. We better pray that Price doesn't get injured. Don't pray too hard for a Cup, though, as that's definitely out of reach, despite the saviour in net.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Sept 30, 2015 11:55:50 GMT -5
Ultimately you judge an AHL coach at how well he turns AHL players into NHL players. Figuring out how to either get the most of a specific skill set or develop the skills that are missing. In fairness to Lefebvre, I don't think he's had a whole lot to work with but I don't think anyone has significantly improved under his watch either.
This year feels different, though. Despite the fact that no youngsters have really stepped up at camp, I think the talent pool below the NHL level, particularly at forward, is as good as it's been in years.
Scherbak De la Rose McCarron Hudon Carr Gregoire Andrighetto
That's a good mix of up and coming talent, some high draft picks and guys that will be counted on to produce. But it needs to happen. I want to see DLR take on a real offensive role and see if we can raise his ceiling. I want to see Scherbak score in bunches and develop into a real top 6 player. McCarron is still a project but I want to see another John LeClair. And I can see Charlie Hudon taking over for Desharnais in the not too distant future.
Again, it's not like he has a bunch of stiffs and retreads to work with. And it's not just on Lefebvre, the whole development side of the organization has to be on the same page. But I expect to see serious progress this year at St John's.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 30, 2015 12:48:14 GMT -5
You're being kinder than I am, BH. Good points.
A couple of things I just read on Twitter that are worth thinking about.
First, on Kassian, there's an article with two journalists (Dan Murphy being one) discuss the Canucks off-season and this is what one of them said about the Kassian-Prust trade: Dan Murphy - " Kassian was great, compelling TV. The young man has a tremendous amount of upside but the Canucks were not willing to put in any more work to see if he could fulfill it. I believe the Canucks put in a tremendous amount of work to try and help Kassian become a professional but he wasn't willing to match. This could come back to bite the Canucks in the rear, but I doubt it will."
Second, this year's training camp, from Brian Wilde
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Post by Tankdriver on Sept 30, 2015 13:27:39 GMT -5
Ultimately you judge an AHL coach at how well he turns AHL players into NHL players. Figuring out how to either get the most of a specific skill set or develop the skills that are missing. In fairness to Lefebvre, I don't think he's had a whole lot to work with but I don't think anyone has significantly improved under his watch either. This year feels different, though. Despite the fact that no youngsters have really stepped up at camp, I think the talent pool below the NHL level, particularly at forward, is as good as it's been in years. Scherbak De la Rose McCarron Hudon Carr Gregoire Andrighetto That's a good mix of up and coming talent, some high draft picks and guys that will be counted on to produce. But it needs to happen. I want to see DLR take on a real offensive role and see if we can raise his ceiling. I want to see Scherbak score in bunches and develop into a real top 6 player. McCarron is still a project but I want to see another John LeClair. And I can see Charlie Hudon taking over for Desharnais in the not too distant future. Again, it's not like he has a bunch of stiffs and retreads to work with. And it's not just on Lefebvre, the whole development side of the organization has to be on the same page. But I expect to see serious progress this year at St John's. In a way I agree, but this might be a chicken and egg analogy. With the players we drafted, has he helped them take the next step? Tinordi and Ellis are still not progressing, Bournival, Thomas, Andrighetto, and Dumont won't be sticking around this year and he's had these guys for a few years. Can you tell me a player that has really progressed in 3 years in the AHL under this guy?
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Post by seventeen on Sept 30, 2015 13:46:36 GMT -5
I really hate that argument that it's not his job to win, that instead it's his job to develop players. It's a pure excuse and the biggest red herring going. How can you develop someone in a losing environment?
How does a team win? Talent, systems and coaching environment. Their coach teaches them the right way to play, makes for a comfortable working environment and lets the player talent take over. The player improves, the team wins. In other words, it's far more likely that a team that's winning is one where good player development is taking place. I don't think you can have good player development in a losing environment.
When I hear that argument from the Habs management, it makes me cringe and confirms they're saying that to avoid the hard truth.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Sept 30, 2015 16:33:35 GMT -5
No energy? ... that would explain a few observations here on the boards ... disconcerting, though ...
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Sept 30, 2015 16:38:39 GMT -5
I'm good with it ... I've been reading opinions here and elsewhere, and it seems to be the right move ... going to try to follow him in St John's this year ... besides the AHL didn't hurt Price, Pacioretty or Subban ... Cheers.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Sept 30, 2015 16:41:55 GMT -5
I'm good with it ... I've been reading opinions here and elsewhere, and it seems to be the right move ... going to try to follow him in St John's this year ... besides the AHL didn't hurt Price, Pacioretty or Subban ... Cheers. It is absolutely the right move. He is still only 19 years old, needs to get stronger and learn the positional play of professional hockey. Still lots to learn to add to his natural skill set. Not worried in the least, he is still right on track as far as I am concerned. Had he been born two days later, he would be back in the WHL.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Sept 30, 2015 16:46:01 GMT -5
Ultimately you judge an AHL coach at how well he turns AHL players into NHL players. Figuring out how to either get the most of a specific skill set or develop the skills that are missing. In fairness to Lefebvre, I don't think he's had a whole lot to work with but I don't think anyone has significantly improved under his watch either. This year feels different, though. Despite the fact that no youngsters have really stepped up at camp, I think the talent pool below the NHL level, particularly at forward, is as good as it's been in years. Scherbak De la Rose McCarron Hudon Carr Gregoire Andrighetto That's a good mix of up and coming talent, some high draft picks and guys that will be counted on to produce. But it needs to happen. I want to see DLR take on a real offensive role and see if we can raise his ceiling. I want to see Scherbak score in bunches and develop into a real top 6 player. McCarron is still a project but I want to see another John LeClair. And I can see Charlie Hudon taking over for Desharnais in the not too distant future. Again, it's not like he has a bunch of stiffs and retreads to work with. And it's not just on Lefebvre, the whole development side of the organization has to be on the same page. But I expect to see serious progress this year at St John's. Good post man ... Cheers.
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Post by PTH on Sept 30, 2015 17:28:37 GMT -5
Expectations from a La Presse reporter: Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gallagher Eller-Galchenyuk-Semin Fleischmann-Desharnais-Weise Flynn-Mitchell-Kassian Healthy scratch: Smith-Pelly Markov-Subban Emelin-Petry Beaulieu-Gilbert Healthy scratch: Pateryn, Barberio Price Tokarski After the Holidays: Pacioretty-Desharnais-Gallagher Eller-Galchenyuk-Semin Fleischmann-Plekanec-Kassian De La Rose-Mitchell-Weise Charles Hudon first call up, and would replace Plekanec next year. Markov-Subban Beaulieu-Petry Barberio-Pateryn Price Condon ---- blogues.lapresse.ca/lnh/2015/09/30/ca-devrait-donc-ressembler-a-ca/---- Which would mean Emelin, Gilbert, Flynn, Smith-Pelley, Tinordi and Tokarski getting moved/sent down over the season, or at the end of camp for Tinordi. And Plek's role becomes lessened over the season. (Flynn and Smith-Pelley might be healthy scratches after the Holidays though...)
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Post by CentreHice on Sept 30, 2015 17:51:00 GMT -5
I really hate that argument that it's not his job to win, that instead it's his job to develop players. It's a pure excuse and the biggest red herring going. How can you develop someone in a losing environment? How does a team win? Talent, systems and coaching environment. Their coach teaches them the right way to play, makes for a comfortable working environment and lets the player talent take over. The player improves, the team wins. In other words, it's far more likely that a team that's winning is one where good player development is taking place. I don't think you can have good player development in a losing environment. When I hear that argument from the Habs management, it makes me cringe and confirms they're saying that to avoid the hard truth. Basically, goal production continues to be an area of concern. Not my job to figure it out...and I don't have the knowledge/desire that many on this board possess in terms of suggestions for improvement. All I can do is look at some stats....and EXPECT those in charge to rectify the situation. And Bergevin has been trying, no question. Nowhere to go on the farm but up....(well, I guess they can go down, once again....) Last year, the Bulldogs were 8th worst in GF. In 2013-14, 2nd worst. In 2012-13, dead last. When they're called up to the Habs...they finally have someone who makes up for that dearth: Carey Price. I still contend that last year, the Habs would've been outside looking in had Price not had his trophy haul season. Boston missed the show with 96 pts....and Price was responsible for way more than 12 pts. Here's hoping that with Galchenyuk at centre, the addition of Semin, a full season of Petry, and an improved bottom 6, the pressure on Price will be somewhat mitigated.
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Post by HFTO on Sept 30, 2015 18:17:16 GMT -5
On Kassian .....seems a waste on the 4th line given his skill set.....has he been that bad or is MT trying to make a point and have this kid earn his way up....a bit curious given they sought him out to add goals. With a 7-8 min role can't count on too many.
HFTO
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Post by habsorbed on Sept 30, 2015 23:00:31 GMT -5
On Kassian .....seems a waste on the 4th line given his skill set.....has he been that bad or is MT trying to make a point and have this kid earn his way up....a bit curious given they sought him out to add goals. With a 7-8 min role can't count on too many. HFTO It seems like the same old tired story. MB gets/drafts someone who has a skill set we need and then MT doesn't use the player in that capacity. I think the suggestion that the gm gets the players and the coach decides how to use them is nonsense. No operation in any sector can function that way. It reflects bad corporate management and coordination. Either MT gets on the same page or he gets on the pavement thinking about the government.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Oct 1, 2015 11:57:57 GMT -5
MT indicated yesterday that Price will play the whole game tonight and Tokarski all game on Saturday.
Guess the winner of the backup job has been determined.
Condon will get his turn (he is on a one way deal next year after all).
Edit: And with DLR on the fifth line in practice along with Hudon, Andrighetto and DSP, I am guessing that he could very well start in Hamilton too. He does not have to clear waivers like DSP, and Flynn seems to be playing well and getting in the good books of the coach to secure a fourth line starting spot. Again, this all assumes that the Berg is able and willing to sign Fleischmann.
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