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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 5, 2015 22:22:52 GMT -5
The three stars pretty much summed it up ... 1st Desharnais, 2nd Weise, 3rd Petry ... Cheers.
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Post by folatre on Nov 5, 2015 22:42:26 GMT -5
It is a good win. Sound defense with many guys sacrificing to make play. Condon continues to be solid. A power play goal and the empty net sandwich around a couple of even strength, those 5 on 5 ones welcome because Habs had played five periods of very stale hockey even strength.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Nov 5, 2015 23:01:47 GMT -5
After giving up that softie, Calder Condon settled in and had a very solid outing.
Nice to see the top line contribute with a couple.
Good third period after a bit of a flat second.
Two more points they can't take away!
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Post by CentreHice on Nov 5, 2015 23:26:50 GMT -5
Missed the game….but glad when I checked the scoreboard.
After watching the highlights, it sure seems clear that Waite has Condon playing a similar style to Price. He's 5-0-1.
Don't split up Flash and DD. (Flash DD…hmmmm….)
Anyways……
What a tip by Weise!
Gallagher, again, is rewarded for going to the net.
Sure need somebody like Tavares to put us definitely into the mix, though….man, that guy is smooth.
How did Galchy's line play? No highlights of them at all….
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 23:26:35 GMT -5
Fortuitous bounce for the game winner. We'll be on the other end of it at some point in the future.
Wonder if Price will be back in goal against Boston.
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Post by seventeen on Nov 5, 2015 23:53:43 GMT -5
How did Galchy's line play? No highlights of them at all…. They've become the 4th line in terms of ice time. Sometimes I wonder if Therrien just wants to sink someone, he does it. He has an easy excuse in that the other lines are producing, but he has a very short frame of reference. Come playoff time, if Chucky isn't leading the way offensively, we are a prime candidate for one round and out. He's not going to get there unless Therrien gives him the ice time to get better. Short term pain for long term gain.
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Post by CentreHice on Nov 6, 2015 1:53:25 GMT -5
How did Galchy's line play? No highlights of them at all…. They've become the 4th line in terms of ice time. Sometimes I wonder if Therrien just wants to sink someone, he does it. He has an easy excuse in that the other lines are producing, but he has a very short frame of reference. Come playoff time, if Chucky isn't leading the way offensively, we are a prime candidate for one round and out. He's not going to get there unless Therrien gives him the ice time to get better. Short term pain for long term gain. Agreed. While it doesn't make sense to argue against the lineup that's played .833 hockey after 15 games, I've seen enough playoffs to say with some confidence that Pleks, at 33, isn't suddenly going to become Toews-like in the post-season. Chucky will be 22 in February. It's time.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Nov 6, 2015 8:53:57 GMT -5
You want to see more finish/puck luck from the Eller/Galchenyuk line, but the advanced stats still suggest that those guys are very strong in the possession game, controlling better than 50% of shot attempts at even strength. That's good to see and tells me that they just need to bury chances.
I'll give the DD line credit for capitalizing on chances, but their defensive liabilities are plain as day. Despite starting 67% of his draws in the offensive zone, DD's on-ice Corsi was 38% (8 shot attempts vs 13 shot attempts allowed). Fleischmann and Weise were just as bad.
The story of the game from a directional standpoint was the Pacioretty and Galchenyuk lines controlling play, the Desharnais line getting abused, and the Mitchell line playing even. I'd sure like to see Galchenyuk and Eller getting more than 11/12 minutes of ice.
I'd also like to see Semin back in the lineup with Eller/Galch. What that line needs is more finish and I'd take my chances with Semin. Too much upside there to leave on the bench, but MT is a stubborn coach - once he forms an opinion of a player (good or bad) it's very hard to shake him off that.
Love Condon. Getting the job done. A great opportunity for Price to get fully healthy, and should pay dividends later in the year.
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Post by Skilly on Nov 6, 2015 9:33:53 GMT -5
Ahhhhh The Curious case of Alex Galchenyuk
Whatever happened? Why are we seeing no production from him? The sad truth is, until we start losing, Galchenyuk and Eller are going to suffer and quickly become scapegoats. The reason they are not producing is sitting in the rafters. Ohhh I hear you guys laughing ...
The first ten games of the season we went 9-1. The Galchenyuk line had a bad game against Vancouver. It happens. They went -2 on the ice, Eller had his second game of the season where he didn't have 2 or more shots (game 1 and game 10, both with zero shots). And for some inane reasoning, Semin was to blame. We can dissect Semin's game until the cows come home, but he frees up a ton of space for Galchenyuk and Eller when he out on the ice.
So those first 10 games: Galchenyuk - 1 goal, 6 assists, 19 shots on net (Oh, and Galchenyuk's shots were going up, he had 14 shots in the 6 games prior to the benching) Eller - 3 goals, 1 assist, 21 shots on net
After Semin was benched: Galchenyuk - 1 goal, 1 assist, 5 shots on net Eller - 1 goal, 0 assists, 7 shots on net (4 in one game!)
Now, whatever Semin did in that Vancouver game (or the 1 or 2 games leading up) may have warranted a benching. Sure send a message. Did is warrant a 5 game benching. You'll never convince me of that.
What we have effectively done is take a young center who was on pace for 60 pts and possible ready to take on the first line center role (then who knows what his limit could have been??) and turned him into a possibly 40pt center who probably now fears keeping his second line role. Cause you can be sure someone is going to point out that David Desharnais is producing and deserves to be moved up. And my answer is, well the second line was producing and Semin didn't deserve the benching, not this long ... All the lines were doing good. Now we find the top two are hit or miss, mostly miss, because the round peg we need to fit in the round hole is in the rafters.
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Post by BadCompany on Nov 6, 2015 9:57:37 GMT -5
This is fun, ain't it? Random thoughts: * Dale Weise! Wasn't he supposed to be out of hockey by now? At least now we know the price of a soul. * Speaking of Price, with Carey down I was hoping for .500 hockey, or four points. So far Condon has gotten got 5 of 6. Mission accomplished, no matter what happens against Boston. * For those that are wondering, Cam Talbot was traded for a 2nd, a 3rd, and a 7th. * For those that are wondering, Jarome Iginla is on pace for 38 goals. * Heard a rumour that "two high level members of Montreal's management" were at the LA/St. Louis game. Unless it's Gaborik, I don't really see a fit there. And even then, what would we have to give up to get Gaborik? Prospects aren't going to do it. But what do I know? * They said on the broadcast last night that of Gallagher's six goals this year, not one of them has come from further than four feet out. Which makes sense, seeing as I think I can shoot harder than him. * Four lines of skating fury!!! Finally! * Jeff Petry. What a great addition. I wanted it, and it was so. Can't believe all it took was some smoked meat on a poutine. I wonder if the same thing would work with Jennifer Lawrence? I will send her some. * We're still soft. (boo! hiss! no negativity allowed!) * With Kassian suspended and not counting against the salary cap, we must have a boatload of space, no? It won't last forever (right?) but let's enjoy it while it does!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2015 9:59:47 GMT -5
Agreed--we signed Semin to bolster our offense knowing his shortfalls. I like the speed Byron brings but he doesn't have the pure goal scorer's mentality that Semin has. He seemed to have something good going with Galchenyuk. Bring him back in.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Nov 6, 2015 10:00:53 GMT -5
I agree, Skilly. Makes you think Therrien never wanted Semin and was determined to bury him at the first opportunity. Even though he's on a throwaway contract, Semin is an established pro who's play did not warrant a 5 game benching. And the Eller/Galchenyuk line has looked worse since then, so why not bring Semin back into the mix?
Plus ca change..... Semin scratched for 5 games, Eller continues to see his minutes cut if he's not 100% on his game, while DD, who I admit has been putting up points, continues to be a major defensive liability.
Nobody is arguing with the record, but you want to see guys deployed in situations that maximize their potential. MT has probably been a better coach that I thought he would be, but he's very stubborn and has his pets and whipping boys. That has to grate on guys.
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Post by CentreHice on Nov 6, 2015 10:48:38 GMT -5
Ahhhhh The Curious case of Alex GalchenyukThe reason they are not producing is sitting in the rafters. Ohhh I hear you guys laughing ... A lot here have been clamouring for Semin back in the lineup, certainly as early as the Winnipeg game. The poll results were 12-1 in favour of bringing him back…and that sentiment might be growing…. Thanks for the stats to back it up!
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Post by BadCompany on Nov 6, 2015 11:05:59 GMT -5
At the end of the day, Semin was brought in to produce goals. Yes, puck possession numbers are nice, but at the end of the day you have to score more goals than the other team. And in that regards Semin was slumping.
* 3 points in 10 games. * 1 point in 8 games before being benched. * Highest percentage of offensive zone starts on the team, at 72.34%. * Second most power-play time per game for forwards, at 2:42 (after Pacioretty). * Fourth worst goals for percentage, at -18.65, behind his linemate Eller, defenseman Emelin, and Brian Flynn. * Second worst goals for total, tied with DSP, and ahead of only Paul Byron, who has played five less games. In 10 games, Montreal only scored 7 times while Semin was on the ice. Not great numbers for your second line winger on the highest scoring team in the league.
So you have a guy who has a history and reputation of being mercurial, whose production has slumped for over a year now, who nobody else in the league wanted, and who was on pace for 8 goals despite getting a tonne of offensive zone opportunities and a lot of power-play time. Was it entirely Semin's fault? Perhaps not. But at the end of the day Semin is expendable, whereas Galchenyuk and to a lesser extent Eller are not. They wanted to get other guys into the lineup, and based on pure production Semin was the weakest link. It's unfortunate that they haven't found somebody to mesh with Galchenyuk and Eller yet, but if those guys are as good as people say they are then they shouldn't need a guy who has 7 goals in his last 67 games to prop them up. I would like to see Semin back, and I'm still holding out hope that he can be productive, but I really don't think Therrien can be blamed for sitting him down. They gave him a 10 game chance, with good offensive linemates and primo offensive situations, and he wasn't producing. It's that simple in my mind.
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Post by habsorbed on Nov 6, 2015 11:18:11 GMT -5
Ahhhhh The Curious case of Alex GalchenyukThe reason they are not producing is sitting in the rafters. Ohhh I hear you guys laughing ... A lot here have been clamouring for Semin back in the lineup, certainly as early as the Winnipeg game. The poll results were 12-1 in favour of bringing him back…and that sentiment might be growing…. Thanks for the stats to back it up! I was and remain the lone dissenter. The team is playing well, scoring alot, 4 solid lines, and WINNING, with our back up goalie. I have no problem with giving Semin another shot but knowing MT it is not going to happen until a loss or an injury.
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Post by CentreHice on Nov 6, 2015 11:29:52 GMT -5
Right on, habsorbed.
I think the main fear is that, come playoff time, Chucky won't be as developed should Pleks fail to rise to the occasion.
As Skilly's stats point out….Chucky's (and Eller's) production has remarkably tailed off since the Semin benching.
Possession, as pointed out by BH, remains strong….but we gotta see offensive production…and it WAS happening when #13 was on that line.
MT singled-out Semin for criticism as being directly responsible for 2 GA against the Leafs….he was benched for a stretch in that game.
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Post by seventeen on Nov 6, 2015 11:47:57 GMT -5
You want to see more finish/puck luck from the Eller/Galchenyuk line, but the advanced stats still suggest that those guys are very strong in the possession game, controlling better than 50% of shot attempts at even strength. That's good to see and tells me that they just need to bury chances. I'll give the DD line credit for capitalizing on chances, but their defensive liabilities are plain as day. Despite starting 67% of his draws in the offensive zone, DD's on-ice Corsi was 38% (8 shot attempts vs 13 shot attempts allowed). Fleischmann and Weise were just as bad. I'd rather be lucky than good, right? Last night's goal by Fleishman (how do you spell that guy's name?) was a good example. Great play by Flash, great finish by DD, but neither gets anything if the puck doesn't take a crazy bounce off a linesman to create the 2 on 1. In the long run, luck (measured in part by the clumsy sounding PDO stat) runs out, but it can take a long time. Sometimes a season. You wouldn't want it to run out after game 82 for example, so I'd prefer possession by a line with a guy like Chucky who we know can finish, than luck. Can't predict luck and the hockey gods are notoriously fickle. They were kind enough to us to have Dave Cameron make his initial playoff goalie decisions last season while drunk on hope. Once he sobered up and played Anderson we had a two game handicap. We're not there yet and by not tinkering and by being satisfied with the status quo, we're setting ourselves up for failure in April. Gotta get better.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 6, 2015 11:56:54 GMT -5
This is fun, ain't it? Random thoughts: * Dale Weise! Wasn't he supposed to be out of hockey by now? At least now we know the price of a soul. And John Tortorella is just getting back into pro hockey ... Interesting ... if it's Marian Gaborik then the first thing I think of is the equivalent in salaries ... wonder if either of those teams have shown an interest in Jared Tinordi ... sorry to say, but he's just taking up a roster spot at this point ... at least Greg Pateryn was sent down for conditioning ...
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Post by seventeen on Nov 6, 2015 13:10:57 GMT -5
This is fun, ain't it? Random thoughts: * Dale Weise! Wasn't he supposed to be out of hockey by now? At least now we know the price of a soul. And John Tortorella is just getting back into pro hockey ... The devil is trending up.
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Post by BadCompany on Nov 6, 2015 13:35:13 GMT -5
Fun with tables! Player | CF% | CF% Rel | FF% | FF% Rel | Points | Brian Bickell | 54.93 | 4.06 | 54.05 | 4.86 | 0 | Alex Semin | 53.30 | 4.03 | 54.02 | 4.60 | 3 |
Is Joel Quenneville a bad coach? I want Semin to succeed as much as the next guy, and I thought it was a great, low-risk signing. The idea of Semin is exactly what this team needs. But so far the idea of Semin has far-outreached the reality of Semin. As I said above, at the end of the day you have to produce points, ESPECIALLY when you've been given plum offensive opportunities, offensive linemates, and power-play time. It's nice to play keep-away, but you have to score every once in a while too. This wasn't a knee jerk reaction on Therrien's part; he let it play out for 10 games before making a switch. I hope he goes back to it, or that Semin somehow forces his hand AND lives up to the idea of his name. But if he's going to clip along at a 1 point per 8 game pace then I'm not going to complain when a coach sits him down.
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Post by CentreHice on Nov 6, 2015 13:47:08 GMT -5
Great discussion.
My worry: If the reduced minutes for Chucky's line continues….then it's going to be very difficult for him to develop into the #1 centre he was drafted to be.
And that'll be 4 years of potential development gone in favour of two centres who have always faded during the show. i.e. not good/skilled/strong enough to get to the Finals, let alone the Cup. There must be numbers to support that.
If Chucky turns out to be a bust in terms of a #1 centre….then so be it….but he's yet to have the opportunity/support/time to prove that. And it ain't gonna happen with reduced minutes and a bottom 6 on his wing.
Not saying Semin is the answer for him, either.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Nov 6, 2015 15:02:21 GMT -5
This is awesome. If the Leafs were 12-2-1 they would be erecting statues of Babcock and planning parade routes. We are here talking about player utilization by the coach and long-term development of young players.
The way the team is playing and has been improved under Berg's watch, we are not going to be getting a top three pick anytime soon. The organization has to start to develop Chucky the right way and put him in a position to succeed as a top line centre, or at worst, a second line centre. That means giving him decent players in order to see if his game does take a big jump up with the right combination of ice time and talented wingers. Both of those factors are slowly, and quietly, being eroded in favour of ice time going to the third and fourth lines. Those two lines are clearly making hay out of their increased opportunities, and it is a great thing to see four effective lines being thrown out there game in and game out.
Byron was a great waiver pickup, but in no way should he be playing on the second line on a team as deep as the Habs are right now. Flynn hustles as well as the next guy, but again that talent and offensive instinct is just not up to par for a second line with a top three pick. Heck, even Chucky and Eller seem to be tripping over each other at times as they both shift to their new roles...but that is not cause for big concern, it is somewhat to be expected during a normal transition period.
Semin getting benched as "an example" is very typical MT. He does play his favourites and his not-so-favourites. I really don't see that changing much as it does seem to be fairly ingrained in his coaching DNA. However, this seems to have gone on far too long to be effective in any way, shape or form. Not unlike the situation where Gilbert keeps playing and giving us his usual dose of "duh" moments when good, young defensive prospects sit and get even more stale in the pressbox.
Depth and good health are wonderful attributes for a team to have. A bit more balanced rotational use of players would seem to be better for all involved and thinking longer team for this team and certain key players' development. Again, I am but a mere fan.
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Post by franko on Nov 6, 2015 15:26:21 GMT -5
Semin getting benched as "an example" is very typical MT. He does play his favourites and his not-so-favourites. I really don't see that changing much as it does seem to be fairly ingrained in his coaching DNA. I am still utterly gobsmacked that DD isn't back on the first line. I would have put money on the under with an over/under of 2.5 games.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Nov 6, 2015 15:42:45 GMT -5
This wasn't a knee jerk reaction on Therrien's part; he let it play out for 10 games before making a switch. I hope he goes back to it, or that Semin somehow forces his hand AND lives up to the idea of his name. But if he's going to clip along at a 1 point per 8 game pace then I'm not going to complain when a coach sits him down. Fair enough, but 5 games as a healthy scratch is plenty. Especially when you consider that the Galchenyuk line has struggled to find a groove since then. I'm not saying Semin's absence is the reason, far from it, but we certainly know that Paul Byron isn't the answer. And it's not like the guy was THAT bad. I've seen plenty of guys coast back on D or take the lazy route to a check. If my alternative is Paul Byron, I'll take Semin every day of the week. Let them work it out on the ice. Same with Tinordi and Pateryn. I'd put Gilbert and Emelin in the press box for a couple of games if nothing else to get those younger guys in the mix. Best case you get some traction with those guys and we're in a position to deal Emelin or Gilbert at the deadline or sooner for a future asset.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 6, 2015 16:11:08 GMT -5
I was saying it in another thread, but I'd like to see how Semin responds to this ... will he cave or will he excel ... dunno ...
Cheers.
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Post by seventeen on Nov 6, 2015 16:33:41 GMT -5
Fun with tables! Player | CF% | CF% Rel | FF% | FF% Rel | Points | Brian Bickell | 54.93 | 4.06 | 54.05 | 4.86 | 0 | Alex Semin | 53.30 | 4.03 | 54.02 | 4.60 | 3 |
Is Joel Quenneville a bad coach? I want Semin to succeed as much as the next guy, and I thought it was a great, low-risk signing. The idea of Semin is exactly what this team needs. But so far the idea of Semin has far-outreached the reality of Semin. As I said above, at the end of the day you have to produce points, ESPECIALLY when you've been given plum offensive opportunities, offensive linemates, and power-play time. It's nice to play keep-away, but you have to score every once in a while too. This wasn't a knee jerk reaction on Therrien's part; he let it play out for 10 games before making a switch. I hope he goes back to it, or that Semin somehow forces his hand AND lives up to the idea of his name. But if he's going to clip along at a 1 point per 8 game pace then I'm not going to complain when a coach sits him down. Quenneville's a great coach, but c'mon, if Bickell had 3 points, Quenneville would be leading the parade ( ). I'd like to see Semin given another chance, but some observations are that he's hardly working his butt off in practice. If you want to impress the coach, or at least give him a reason not to be ticked off at you, work hard in practice. Semin thinks he's Iverson. Heck I used to work hard in practice because it was fun. Way better than lifting weights or other sucky stuff. Just play, man. So on this, unless Semin changes his attitude, I'm with Therrien. (Better laminate this, you may never see it again).
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Post by jkr on Nov 6, 2015 18:29:14 GMT -5
Fun with tables! Player | CF% | CF% Rel | FF% | FF% Rel | Points | Brian Bickell | 54.93 | 4.06 | 54.05 | 4.86 | 0 | Alex Semin | 53.30 | 4.03 | 54.02 | 4.60 | 3 |
Is Joel Quenneville a bad coach? I want Semin to succeed as much as the next guy, and I thought it was a great, low-risk signing. The idea of Semin is exactly what this team needs. But so far the idea of Semin has far-outreached the reality of Semin. As I said above, at the end of the day you have to produce points, ESPECIALLY when you've been given plum offensive opportunities, offensive linemates, and power-play time. It's nice to play keep-away, but you have to score every once in a while too. This wasn't a knee jerk reaction on Therrien's part; he let it play out for 10 games before making a switch. I hope he goes back to it, or that Semin somehow forces his hand AND lives up to the idea of his name. But if he's going to clip along at a 1 point per 8 game pace then I'm not going to complain when a coach sits him down. With this kind of attention to detail and advanced stats maybe you should take over EOTP. Time for a coup - Berkshire has to go.
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Post by seventeen on Nov 6, 2015 23:06:37 GMT -5
Fun with tables! Player | CF% | CF% Rel | FF% | FF% Rel | Points | Brian Bickell | 54.93 | 4.06 | 54.05 | 4.86 | 0 | Alex Semin | 53.30 | 4.03 | 54.02 | 4.60 | 3 |
Is Joel Quenneville a bad coach? I want Semin to succeed as much as the next guy, and I thought it was a great, low-risk signing. The idea of Semin is exactly what this team needs. But so far the idea of Semin has far-outreached the reality of Semin. As I said above, at the end of the day you have to produce points, ESPECIALLY when you've been given plum offensive opportunities, offensive linemates, and power-play time. It's nice to play keep-away, but you have to score every once in a while too. This wasn't a knee jerk reaction on Therrien's part; he let it play out for 10 games before making a switch. I hope he goes back to it, or that Semin somehow forces his hand AND lives up to the idea of his name. But if he's going to clip along at a 1 point per 8 game pace then I'm not going to complain when a coach sits him down. With this kind of attention to detail and advanced stats maybe you should take over EOTP. Time for a coup - Berkshire has to go. Berkshire's fine at stats. He just lets his hate for Therrien get the better of him. That won't end, if then, until Therrien wins a Stanley Cup. I'm not holding my breath.
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Post by franko on Nov 7, 2015 8:50:08 GMT -5
He just lets his hate for Therrien get the better of him. That won't end, if then, until Therrien wins a Stanley Cup. Berkshire. AKA 17, WillieDog, franko . . . no, but faint hope keeps me/us going every year.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Nov 7, 2015 10:40:22 GMT -5
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