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Post by seventeen on Feb 5, 2016 13:30:20 GMT -5
I'd definitely be more disappointed making the playoffs. I've gone through 2 months of despair (sort of) and why would I want to waste that? Nope, give me Matthews, or one of the Finns or a good Canadian centre and that will set us up for the next decade.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Feb 5, 2016 13:31:28 GMT -5
Rumors that the HABS are actively shopping for a coach. For those who blame Therrien for everything, I hope you get your scapegoat sacrificed sooner rather than later and that the next, hopefully non-French coach, will take this great bunch of character players right to the Stanley cup next year. Doc, coaches get fired all the time for reasons that aren't fully in their control. It's the old adage that you "can't fire the players". It may not be fair, but that's life in the big city. The player issues are a separate matter, and worthy of some hard thinking, but Therrien has to bear significant responsibility for what has happened this season. And it's not like this team has always played well in front of Carey Price, more often than not we have been a weak offensive team with a lousy PP that Therrien has not been able to fix. For comparison, here is the record of past Habs coaches that were fired. Circumstances matter, but previous Habs coaches have lost their jobs for performance better than this. Alain Vigneault, 4th season, 5-13-2 Michel Therrien, 3rd season, 18-19-5 Claude Julien, 3rd season, 19-16 Guy Carbonneau, 3rd season, 35-24-7 Jacques Martin, 3rd season, 13-12-7 Randy Cunneyworth, 18-23-9 Does Therrien deserve some leeway for two 1st place finishes and 3 playoff wins? Maybe, but sometimes you just need to move on and bring a fresh perspective into the room. I don't know what the aversion is to Guy Boucher, who by my observation has been a successful coach at every level until his last year in Tampa, but there is clearly something there. I won't touch the language issue, but short of a huge turnaround I don't see how Therrien can survive this. I know Berg wants stability and continuity, both in the coaching staff and on the roster, but I am now coming to view this as his biggest flaw. He's tinkered with the roster since he got here, avoiding doing anything bold, and he's shown excessive loyalty to Therrien. It's not an easy job, but if Berg thought he could manage and tinker his way to a Cup without deviating from the "plan".... well, this is his wake up call.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Feb 6, 2016 13:51:13 GMT -5
I hear you Boston, at this point Therrien is all out of solution and his boss provides him zero support aside from blablabla in front of the camera.
Not only has this team had 3 very good seasons, they were also 19-4 on december 1st this year. Yet through all of this Therrien got very little respect... Sure he has Price... but again Bowman got All-star lineups in Montreal and Detroit and nobody take it as a knock against his coaching capacities...
Obviously firing Therrien becomes almost an unavoidable scenario now but I think it's a darn shame that Bergevin left him out to dry without doing anything...
I'm not a huge fan of Therrien, he has his shortcomings but every coach do.
Now if Therrien is fired I sure hope Bergevin picks the next one out of his usual Old Boys Country Club. I'd sure like Guy Boucher personally (no folks, not because he's bilingual) as he is great with kids and adapts his system to his player and not the other way around.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 6, 2016 14:37:38 GMT -5
I'd be a bit more selective in my praise of the team, Doc. I say this because its not a turnaround for some of us, who've been seeing and saying the same things for the last 3 years. The club has indeed had 3 very productive seasons point wise. I don't equate that with them playing well. I won't repeat my concerns over the last 3 years, but I very strongly believe that Carey Price has carried this team far more than any goalie should be expected to, and Michel Therrien has been a beneficiary of that. Was he doing a good job along with Carey? As I've said, he's been good at putting together a good environment around the team, but his technical skills leave a lot to be desired. I was just about to say that his player judgment isn't good either, but there may be another reason for that and I should have understood that earlier.
One journalist mentioned (not in reference to Therrien, but to coaching in general) that coaches absolutely need the support of their core players. Often, though not always, that translates to currying favour, or at least ensuring the coach has the support, of his veterans, the guys who seem to carry the most weight on a team, much of the time.
That attitude would explain two things. First that Therrien has managed to keep things together and retain the support of his veterans (until December) and secondly that whenever he made an example of someone, it was someone whose support he didn't need...Tinordi, Pateryn, Galchenyuk, Semin, etc. etc. So perhaps there's some of that in Therrien's handling of the team and not just insanity. Bergevin would understand that and allow some leeway until it got too extended. I think if Therrien had just been fair with everyone, he'd have gotten respect from everyone, not just the guys who counted on him giving them more ice time than they deserved. But that's me.
I'd like Guy Boucher too, for the reasons you mentioned and the fact he's won at a few different levels. Going to Europe has also given him a different perspective, which can't hurt any coach. It's not unusual, in fact, it's true much of the time, that good coaches tend to fail in their first tenures in the NHL. They get hired in one place, make a bunch of 'rookie' mistakes, learn from them but get fired. Then they get hired again somewhere else and succeed. How many posts have we had adamantly not wanting 'another rookie coach'. Well this is our chance to hire a guy for his second go around in the NHL, when he's most likely to succeed. It's all coming together.
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Post by habsburgher on Feb 6, 2016 15:17:17 GMT -5
I'd be a bit more selective in my praise of the team, Doc. I say this because its not a turnaround for some of us, who've been seeing and saying the same things for the last 3 years. The club has indeed had 3 very productive seasons point wise. I don't equate that with them playing well. I won't repeat my concerns over the last 3 years, but I very strongly believe that Carey Price has carried this team far more than any goalie should be expected to, and Michel Therrien has been a beneficiary of that. Was he doing a good job along with Carey? As I've said, he's been good at putting together a good environment around the team, but his technical skills leave a lot to be desired. I was just about to say that his player judgment isn't good either, but there may be another reason for that and I should have understood that earlier. One journalist mentioned (not in reference to Therrien, but to coaching in general) that coaches absolutely need the support of their core players. Often, though not always, that translates to currying favour, or at least ensuring the coach has the support, of his veterans, the guys who seem to carry the most weight on a team, much of the time. That attitude would explain two things. First that Therrien has managed to keep things together and retain the support of his veterans (until December) and secondly that whenever he made an example of someone, it was someone whose support he didn't need...Tinordi, Pateryn, Galchenyuk, Semin, etc. etc. So perhaps there's some of that in Therrien's handling of the team and not just insanity. Bergevin would understand that and allow some leeway until it got too extended. I think if Therrien had just been fair with everyone, he'd have gotten respect from everyone, not just the guys who counted on him giving them more ice time than they deserved. But that's me. I'd like Guy Boucher too, for the reasons you mentioned and the fact he's won at a few different levels. Going to Europe has also given him a different perspective, which can't hurt any coach. It's not unusual, in fact, it's true much of the time, that good coaches tend to fail in their first tenures in the NHL. They get hired in one place, make a bunch of 'rookie' mistakes, learn from them but get fired. Then they get hired again somewhere else and succeed. How many posts have we had adamantly not wanting 'another rookie coach'. Well this is our chance to hire a guy for his second go around in the NHL, when he's most likely to succeed. It's all coming together. Well said Doc.
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Post by habsburgher on Feb 6, 2016 15:20:26 GMT -5
I hear you Boston, at this point Therrien is all out of solution and his boss provides him zero support aside from blablabla in front of the camera. Not only has this team had 3 very good seasons, they were also 19-4 on december 1st this year. Yet through all of this Therrien got very little respect... Sure he has Price... but again Bowman got All-star lineups in Montreal and Detroit and nobody take it as a knock against his coaching capacities... Obviously firing Therrien becomes almost an unavoidable scenario now but I think it's a darn shame that Bergevin left him out to dry without doing anything... I'm not a huge fan of Therrien, he has his shortcomings but every coach do. Now if Therrien is fired I sure hope Bergevin picks the next one out of his usual Old Boys Country Club. I'd sure like Guy Boucher personally (no folks, not because he's bilingual) as he is great with kids and adapts his system to his player and not the other way around. Well said Doc.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Feb 6, 2016 16:50:58 GMT -5
MT made one major coaching change tonight against the Oilers. He didn't pull the goaler with two minutes to go. Good move MT.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Feb 6, 2016 16:53:07 GMT -5
I'd be a bit more selective in my praise of the team, Doc. I say this because its not a turnaround for some of us, who've been seeing and saying the same things for the last 3 years. The club has indeed had 3 very productive seasons point wise. I don't equate that with them playing well. I won't repeat my concerns over the last 3 years, but I very strongly believe that Carey Price has carried this team far more than any goalie should be expected to, and Michel Therrien has been a beneficiary of that. Was he doing a good job along with Carey? As I've said, he's been good at putting together a good environment around the team, but his technical skills leave a lot to be desired. I was just about to say that his player judgment isn't good either, but there may be another reason for that and I should have understood that earlier. One journalist mentioned (not in reference to Therrien, but to coaching in general) that coaches absolutely need the support of their core players. Often, though not always, that translates to currying favour, or at least ensuring the coach has the support, of his veterans, the guys who seem to carry the most weight on a team, much of the time. That attitude would explain two things. First that Therrien has managed to keep things together and retain the support of his veterans (until December) and secondly that whenever he made an example of someone, it was someone whose support he didn't need...Tinordi, Pateryn, Galchenyuk, Semin, etc. etc. So perhaps there's some of that in Therrien's handling of the team and not just insanity. Bergevin would understand that and allow some leeway until it got too extended. I think if Therrien had just been fair with everyone, he'd have gotten respect from everyone, not just the guys who counted on him giving them more ice time than they deserved. But that's me. I'd like Guy Boucher too, for the reasons you mentioned and the fact he's won at a few different levels. Going to Europe has also given him a different perspective, which can't hurt any coach. It's not unusual, in fact, it's true much of the time, that good coaches tend to fail in their first tenures in the NHL. They get hired in one place, make a bunch of 'rookie' mistakes, learn from them but get fired. Then they get hired again somewhere else and succeed. How many posts have we had adamantly not wanting 'another rookie coach'. Well this is our chance to hire a guy for his second go around in the NHL, when he's most likely to succeed. It's all coming together. I aknowledged the fact that Therrien did get great goaltending from Price. But why not aknowledge the fact that it's tough when your getting mediocre AHL level goaltending like we are this year. We're 4th in the league in shots for, 4th in shots against I think that's not a sign of a truly bad system... I've see countless golden scoring opportunities blown... We know we are missing fire power and Bergevin's answer to this for 4 season has been nothing but dollarama answers... I compare the way we play against Martin's rope-a-dope and I like Therrien's a whole lot more. All I'm saying is that we can do much, much worst in terms of coaching with this team. But sure if we want to devellop kid faster, Therrien isn't the guy.
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Post by jkr on Feb 6, 2016 17:09:13 GMT -5
I think Therrien will survive this season & start the next. Bergevin committed to him & will let him begin 2016-17 with a healthy lineup. However the leash will be short.
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Post by madhabber on Feb 6, 2016 17:31:13 GMT -5
I think if we fired him now, he'd never expect it. Catch him by surprise.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 6, 2016 18:21:50 GMT -5
If it happens, and we do miss the playoffs, I'd like to see Michel Therrien resign the day after ... I'd also look at replacing Sylvain Lefebvre in St John's, too ...
Cheers.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 17, 2016 7:56:42 GMT -5
I was but a little baby during the late 70s Let me tell you, it wasn't much fun being a big baby during the 70's either. I used to tell my students that they got ripped off by not having experienced the 70's ... what time ... the Habs had six Cups in the 70's but there was a lot more to the decade or so I've been told ... a lot of these former hippies got their haircuts and went on to be teachers, bankers, etc ... great time to be in high school ... I'll leave it there ... Cheers.
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Post by CentreHice on Mar 2, 2016 16:21:48 GMT -5
FWIW....
Mike Weaver on TSN690, when asked about playing for Therrien....(paraphrased)
Like anywhere else...when things are going well, everything's fine....but when things aren't, it's not so nice...
But the old school hockey.....yelling and screaming and stuff like that....doesn't work any more.
He was great with me my first year here....the second year didn't go so well...but I was ready to move on....
Players want a passionate, respectful coach....
Again, the old school way doesn't work anymore....yelling and screaming....
(Yes...he repeated the old school/yelling & screaming comments.)
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Post by UberCranky on Mar 2, 2016 16:33:33 GMT -5
FWIW.... Mike Weaver on TSN690, when asked about playing for Therrien....(paraphrased) Like anywhere else...when things are going well, everything's fine....but when things aren't, it's not so nice...
But the old school ways of doing things...yelling and screaming...doesn't work any more.
He was great with me my first year here....the second year didn't go so well...but I was ready to move on....
Players want a passionate, respectful coach....
Again, the old school way doesn't work anymore....yelling and screaming.... (Yes...he repeated the old school/yelling & screaming comments.) This solidified my impression of MThead more then a 400 amp welder. The guy is a very old school half wit drill sargeant who should of never made it in NHL as head coach. Period. The days of yelling at millionaires to motivate them went away in the 80s, nevermind 2016. Now, if Bergeron thinks that screaming is still a valid coaching system, he needs to join his budfly on the unemployable line.
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Post by CentreHice on Mar 2, 2016 16:35:48 GMT -5
Weaver's audio clip should be accessible at some point on TSN690's site....or somewhere on the net....
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Post by blny on Mar 2, 2016 16:39:35 GMT -5
FWIW.... Mike Weaver on TSN690, when asked about playing for Therrien....(paraphrased) Like anywhere else...when things are going well, everything's fine....but when things aren't, it's not so nice...
But the old school hockey.....yelling and screaming and stuff like that....doesn't work any more.
He was great with me my first year here....the second year didn't go so well...but I was ready to move on....
Players want a passionate, respectful coach....
Again, the old school way doesn't work anymore....yelling and screaming....(Yes...he repeated the old school/yelling & screaming comments.) Pretty much says everything you need to know. Petulant child behind the bench. When things get complicated, he's out of his depth and resorts to one base emotion - the one he still feels works.
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Post by CentreHice on Mar 2, 2016 16:57:18 GMT -5
Kinda surprised he was so candid. Front-line, heart and soul guy....
He didn't sound angry or bitter....just answered the question....
EDIT: In response to the Weaver comments, a poster at HF wrote:
Ryan Whitney said something very similar about two weeks ago on the NHL network. He held back somewhat but you could tell he didn't like Therrien and was quite critical of him. He says that style of coaching wears on guys and they tune him out pretty quickly.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Mar 6, 2016 2:37:15 GMT -5
Rock and a hard place? Bergy signed an extension for MT and now he will have to admit to a big mistake. Molsons signed MB to a long fat contract and now has to admit to a huge mistake. Even if the owner and GM are honest and admit to having bad judgement, they have to find a competent francophone who is better than what they have in place. The soccer teams around the world have no problem hiring the best coach no matter what language or nationAlity. Quebec needs to end this language based discrimination and hire based on competence, not language. The world will not end and the French language will not disappear if a Russian, Sweed, American or worst an anglophone from Toronto like Subban is hired to lead the team out of the abyss.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Mar 16, 2016 15:29:09 GMT -5
... doesn't surprise me ...
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Post by Willie Dog on Mar 16, 2016 15:40:14 GMT -5
... doesn't surprise me ... Unreal... other coaches must look at this and say WTF??
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Post by seventeen on Mar 16, 2016 17:35:49 GMT -5
What do they mean by "reports"? Is this still Renaud Lavoie's story from 2 days ago?
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Mar 23, 2016 20:56:08 GMT -5
... kind of sums up the season ...
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Post by PTH on Mar 24, 2016 0:10:49 GMT -5
... kind of sums up the season ...
I think he knows he's a dead man walking.
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Post by seventeen on Mar 24, 2016 1:44:16 GMT -5
Or he's just frustrated at trying to lead an AHL line-up. I'd be. But...he's made his bed.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Mar 24, 2016 5:25:39 GMT -5
... doesn't surprise me ... I don't blame Therrien for coming back! I blame Bergy for allowing him back and I blame the fans for coming back. What does Bergevin consider to be a bad performance? No excuses!!!
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Mar 24, 2016 10:10:10 GMT -5
I think he should be fired at the end of the season and I'm sure MB will consider that but it depends on who is available to replace him. Boucher, Crawford or Carbonneau have not been offered any positions in the NHL and there must be some reason for that. I may prefer a 1st year coach or bringing back Kirk Muller before one or the front runners. If no better candidate is available by July I think MT Iis back.
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Post by BadCompany on Mar 24, 2016 10:42:54 GMT -5
I think he should be fired at the end of the season and I'm sure MB will consider that but it depends on who is available to replace him. Boucher, Crawford or Carbonneau have not been offered any positions in the NHL and there must be some reason for that. I may prefer a 1st year coach or bringing back Kirk Muller before one or the front runners. If no better candidate is available by July I think MT Iis back. It could be Bob Hartley, should he be fired by the Flames. I know he has a recent Jack Adams award under his belt, but the Flames are going to miss the playoffs again, and Hartley was not current GM Brad Trevling's choice, nor the choice of Brian Burke, their President of operations. Hartley did have Montreal on his short list of teams, according to this NHL.com article). But he chose Calgary because of his close relationship with the Flames then-GM, Jay Feaster (Hartley is the god-father to one of Feaster's kids). So if Hartley gets fired on the NHL equivalent of Black Monday, perhaps he will be Bergevin's choice. Indeed, if the timeline provided in the above article is any indication Hartley was Bergevin's first choice all along...
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Post by Skilly on Mar 24, 2016 11:11:57 GMT -5
I am still hoping for Pascal Vincent
Pascal Vincent enters his fifth season with the Winnipeg Jets in his role as Assistant Coach. Prior to his time with the Jets, Vincent was a Head Coach in the QMJHL for 12 seasons with the Montreal Juniors and Cape Breton Screaming Eagles. Vincent coached the Montreal Juniors to the second best record in the QMJHL at 46-12-10 in 2010-11.
Vincent has an all-time QMJHL head coaching record of 429-313-87 along with nine playoff series wins and was the recipient of the Ron Lapointe Trophy as the top coach in the QMJHL following the 2007-08 season. That year, the Screaming Eagles finished with a record of 40-24-6 and reached the second round of the QMJHL playoffs.
Vincent has also been the General Manager of teams in Montreal and Cape Breton and earned the Maurice Filion Trophy in 2007 as the top general manager following a season in which Cape Breton finished with a record of 46-22-2 and reached the third round of the playoffs backstopped by current Jets goaltender Ondrej Pavelec.
In Vincent’s playing career, he played centre for four seasons in the QMJHL with the St. Jean Beavers, St. Jean Lynx, Laval Titan, and Verdun College-Francais. Vincent won the Molson Cup as the QMJHL champion with Verdun in 1991-92, and also played one season in the ECHL with the Knoxville Cherokees in 1992-93.
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Post by CentreHice on Mar 24, 2016 11:56:23 GMT -5
Here we go again….
Instead of casting a large net for the BCA…we continue to restrict ourselves to find, supposedly, the BBCA….which usually means French-mother-tongue. And if we can't find one, then Therrien might just stay by default.
Is that any way to run the most-storied franchise in the league?
Not saying there aren't talented/worthy coaches in that pool….but at 23 years and counting, we've been having a difficult time finding the right recipe behind the bench, no?
I know a lot of the failure has to do with injuries and talent levels of the various Habs' editions during that span….but will it ever be time to say damn the torpedoes and weather the fallout by hiring the BCA and an interpreter, if necessary?
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Mar 24, 2016 13:06:21 GMT -5
Many of the NHL coaches tend to get recycled to several teams before being run out of the league. I don't know if any Anglo coach would fare any better than a French one over the last decade
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