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Post by seventeen on Jan 26, 2016 0:23:10 GMT -5
After this latest disheartening display of ineptitude, I wondered "What can Michel Therrien or Marc Bergevin do now?" Put yourself in their shoes and try to find a solution. What can you do?
Some options:
1) Change of head coach – non starter unless MT chooses to sit up in the press box one game and let an assistant take over. Bergevin has stated MT is here for the duration of this season at least. You don't threaten anyone unless you're willing to make good on the threat, so Berg won't back down from that or his future credibility is lost. 2) Replace one of the assistant coaches – This is a possibility if for no other reason than to make it seem like something is being done to address the matter. Daigneault would be the obvious choice because he’s in charge of the Power Play. Then again, Lacroix was in charge of it last year when it was equally as bad. Both? In fact neither is likely to happen. Therrien is very loyal to the guys he trusts and he hired both of them. And once again, Berg promised they were safe. 2) Complete a trade. Poor idea. We have never been in a worse negotiating position. The players have less value than at any time in the last 3 years, except maybe Price, whose value is at an all time high, but trading him would be perhaps the only thing that could make this situation worse than it is. 4) Bring up a bunch of the IceCaps to give them trial runs. That's a possibility but not right now. Besides the obvious, that there is a roster limit and you'd have to trade away some people to create space, I wouldn't want those guys coming into this state of affairs. Better that they remain in a .500 to .600 hockey club where a playoff position is still a possibility. They're getting the same coaching in both cities (according to the brain trust), so that's not a factor.
Well that's about the limit of my imagination. I haven't factored in Carey's return in any of my thinking because I believe, before long, we'll hear that the team has decided to sit him for the rest of the season. They might even decide the best course of action is surgery, since he'll be missing all the games anyway. I don't think it matters if he'll be healthy after the All Star Game or mid March or whenever. This season is done like dinner. The true lack of ability in the coaching staff has been shown to everyone. If Berg has guaranteed his tenure until April 9th, the die has been cast.
I like a lot of sports, and follow the Toronto Raptors closely. They’ve been on a roll lately, winning 8 games in a row despite Demarre Carroll, an excellent Shooting Forward being out of the line-up after knee surgery. One of the guys they really needed to take a step up was Terrence Ross. Ross has been an inconsistent player over the 3 years he’s been a Raptor. He’s young, athletic, but may not be the smartest guy and his shooting was erratic. He has been a rock in this last streak, helping make the bench a key part of the Raptors game plan. The Sportsnet announcers, Matt Devlin and Jack Armstrong, both mentioned the tremendous amount of time the assistant coaches having been spending with Ross. His 3 point shooting has improved, his jump shot is better, he attacks the basket at the right time, he draws players and passes off well and he’s basically improved, like 50%. That’s what good coaching does. It takes raw products and refines them. I don’t see that happening with the Habs. Maybe we just don’t see it and maybe it’s happening, but if so the results aren’t visible.
On the structure front, how often do we complain about other players being wide open and our players being on several different pages. MT says the players aren’t executing the way they’re supposed to. That usually translates to “they’re choosing not to do what we want them to do”. Good coaches get their players to play a certain way. When they're beaten it's because the other team has better talent, not because they're better prepared or more disciplined.
The point of this story is that there are no options. That door was closed when Bergevin guaranteed Therrien and Co were here to the end of the season. All we can do is suffer quietly or not so quietly until next season. And pray to any god you choose that there is some sanity in the ivory tower and that a new coaching staff is ready to work with these players next year. They are nowhere near this bad, they’ve been molded this badly.
Do you have any ideas for MT and Berg?
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Post by blny on Jan 26, 2016 6:38:20 GMT -5
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Post by mikeg on Jan 26, 2016 8:36:06 GMT -5
The old adage of you can't fire the players so you have to fire the coach is pretty much the only tool in the in the toolbox we can play.
Bergy simply won't trade for what he needs because he won't give up assets.
He won't fire himself because to have the balls to go up and say it is all my fault and then expect him to actually remove himself is silly. The guy is clearly an egomaniac, good luck getting him to actually prove he is accountable.
So that leaves the coach.
Molson won't fire Bergy either, because he gave him a nice fat extension to 2022.
So, yup, fire the coach, hope it sparks something etc. etc. etc.
But really without depth down the middle this is just going to be a recurring discussion until that issue is solved once and for all.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 9:09:26 GMT -5
I think it's time to offload some roster players to teams looking for depth. Markov, Desharnais, Plekanec, and possibly Eller. We likely won't get much in return, but if anything I'd like to make room for McCarron and Carr.
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Post by Tankdriver on Jan 26, 2016 9:24:06 GMT -5
I agree on everything said so far, however I see this as an opportunity. Trade deadline, GM's are most likely to do their dumbest trades because they are either trying to secure a playoff spot or think they have a chance to win the cup. This is a year where I think we can dump some players; not just the DSP's, Fleischman's but the some good assets like Markov, Plekanec, Desharnais, Emelin and get a somewhat nice return and help restock the cupboard with picks and players. If we don't finish in the top three for the draft, then maybe we can trade our first (ex: #5 pick) with another one we acquire at the dealine for #3? I am just spit balling some ideas but I think if we keep up the current winnining pace of .225 we should be in complete sell mode at the deadline.
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Post by mikeg on Jan 26, 2016 9:47:54 GMT -5
Acquiring picks is great, but if it's just mid to late round picks then what you will be picking are small players, sleepers or just trying to hit home runs. We have enough players like that, unfortunately what we need are high 1sts... which are not going to be given away, and that means trading assets like Max, Gally, etc. Which we won't do. So we are stuck drafting the same type of player over and over.
Realistically the only solution to fill the hole down the middle is just to tank for 2 seasons. I think many of us have said this before, but you get a taste of the playoffs and you lose all sense of perspective. However, if you want a long term fix, and bear in mind it is still a gamble, then tanking and drafting blue chippers is the way to go.
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Post by Tankdriver on Jan 26, 2016 9:54:27 GMT -5
Acquiring picks is great, but if it's just mid to late round picks then what you will be picking are small players, sleepers or just trying to hit home runs. We have enough players like that, unfortunately what we need are high 1sts... which are not going to be given away, and that means trading assets like Max, Gally, etc. Which we won't do. So we are stuck drafting the same type of player over and over. Realistically the only solution to fill the hole down the middle is just to tank for 2 seasons. I think many of us have said this before, but you get a taste of the playoffs and you lose all sense of perspective. However, if you want a long term fix, and bear in mind it is still a gamble, then tanking and drafting blue chippers is the way to go. Yes, but if you go back a few years: Martin Erat for Forsberg, Anthony Duclair for Yandle, shows that sometimes a deal can be made.
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Post by mikeg on Jan 26, 2016 9:58:39 GMT -5
Acquiring picks is great, but if it's just mid to late round picks then what you will be picking are small players, sleepers or just trying to hit home runs. We have enough players like that, unfortunately what we need are high 1sts... which are not going to be given away, and that means trading assets like Max, Gally, etc. Which we won't do. So we are stuck drafting the same type of player over and over. Realistically the only solution to fill the hole down the middle is just to tank for 2 seasons. I think many of us have said this before, but you get a taste of the playoffs and you lose all sense of perspective. However, if you want a long term fix, and bear in mind it is still a gamble, then tanking and drafting blue chippers is the way to go. Yes, but if you go back a few years: Martin Erat for Forsberg, Anthony Duclair for Yandle, shows that sometimes a deal can be made. I just don't trust MB to acquire the right talent. His M.O. up until now has been to acquire grinders, or a UFA (Vanek/Petry) for very little. Plus... the fact that Forsberg/Duclair deals happen tend to serve as a warning sign for other GM's to not make the same mistake. Realistically Markov to the Caps makes the most sense to me. But what the return will be.. I dunno.
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 26, 2016 10:07:12 GMT -5
If we are to draft some blue chippers at centre (which we DESPERATELY need), then I don't want Therrien and his ideas anywhere NEAR them. He couldn't even get the job done with Crosby and Malkin down the middle. When we last won the Cup, we had Damphousse and Muller as our Top 2 centres…and even then we needed Roy to put in a Conn Smythe playoff performance. At least we could score. Pleks and DD. How many more seasons of this nonsense?
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Post by blny on Jan 26, 2016 10:12:10 GMT -5
Acquiring picks is great, but if it's just mid to late round picks then what you will be picking are small players, sleepers or just trying to hit home runs. We have enough players like that, unfortunately what we need are high 1sts... which are not going to be given away, and that means trading assets like Max, Gally, etc. Which we won't do. So we are stuck drafting the same type of player over and over. Realistically the only solution to fill the hole down the middle is just to tank for 2 seasons. I think many of us have said this before, but you get a taste of the playoffs and you lose all sense of perspective. However, if you want a long term fix, and bear in mind it is still a gamble, then tanking and drafting blue chippers is the way to go. Yes, but if you go back a few years: Martin Erat for Forsberg, Anthony Duclair for Yandle, shows that sometimes a deal can be made. I mention the Yandle deal specifically in the Game Plan thread. Markov will waive to go play with Ovi. Ovi will welcome him. Dallas could use depth on D; see Emelin. Look to move upwards of two of Eller, DD, or Pleks. You likely have to take a contract back, but if it can legitimately address scoring from the wing ... There's no reason both those defenders and at least two of those forwards shouldn't be on the block. Tank for a high lottery pick. Anyone of Matthews or the two Finns are NHL ready now. At 17. Anyone of them makes an impact next year. Change the coaching staff. My official stance is Crawford, Robinson, and Ducharme; head coach and two assistants. Hopefully a scoring winger can be added thru the trades above. Then use available cap space to augment the left side of the defense. Aim to have a bottom six, and bottom pair, where average salary is around $1 million. It's what the Hawks have done, and they're pretty good. It's what NFL teams do, or should I say DON'T do. NFL teams do not waste money on support players, and the position you play is directly related to your worth. After that, where you fall on the depth chart. Spend your money on the best top six, top 4, and top goalie you can. The rest should be interchangeable parts.
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 26, 2016 10:17:22 GMT -5
I like your plan, blny.
Even the idea of Crawford is growing on me….he has passion….but is he more like Tortorella or Quenneville? Both men have passion and can blow up at various times…but there IS a difference.
Is Boucher even a consideration?
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Post by blny on Jan 26, 2016 10:18:33 GMT -5
If we are to draft some blue chippers at centre (which we DESPERATELY need), then I don't want Therrien and his ideas anywhere NEAR them. He couldn't even get the job done with Crosby and Malkin down the middle. When we last won the Cup, we had Damphousse and Muller as our Top 2 centres…and even then we needed Roy to put in a Conn Smythe playoff performance. At least we could score. Pleks and DD. How many more seasons of this nonsense? Roy was great, but I don't think Vinny's 23 points in 20 games should be over looked. In 20 playoff games that year Montreal scored 66 goals and gave up 57. 3.3gf average and 2.7ga average. Both numbers lower than regular seasons 3.88gfa and 3.33gaa. IMO, that team's ability to score was as important to the Cup as Roy. Maybe more.
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Post by blny on Jan 26, 2016 10:20:50 GMT -5
I like your plan, blny. Even the idea of Crawford is growing on me….he has passion….but is he more like Tortorella or Quenneville? Both men have passion and can blow up at various times…but there IS a difference. Is Boucher even a consideration? Here's my overall philosophy behind my choice. If you don't have cup winners ON the bench, you should have some behind it. Crawford has a ring as a coach. Robinson is running out of digits to put his rings on as a player and coach. Crawford can play bad cop when needed, Robinson can focus on teaching the defense, and Ducharme, who's in tune with the modern young player, can play good cop.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 26, 2016 10:25:48 GMT -5
Having problems competing against the bigger teams ... my expectations for this team are waning fast ...
Cheers.
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 26, 2016 10:30:21 GMT -5
If we are to draft some blue chippers at centre (which we DESPERATELY need), then I don't want Therrien and his ideas anywhere NEAR them. He couldn't even get the job done with Crosby and Malkin down the middle. When we last won the Cup, we had Damphousse and Muller as our Top 2 centres…and even then we needed Roy to put in a Conn Smythe playoff performance. At least we could score. Pleks and DD. How many more seasons of this nonsense? Roy was great, but I don't think Vinny's 23 points in 20 games should be over looked. In 20 playoff games that year Montreal scored 66 goals and gave up 57. 3.3gf average and 2.7ga average. Both numbers lower than regular seasons 3.88gfa and 3.33gaa. IMO, that team's ability to score was as important to the Cup as Roy. Maybe more. I did mention that we could score in 1993.
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Post by blny on Jan 26, 2016 10:31:35 GMT -5
Roy was great, but I don't think Vinny's 23 points in 20 games should be over looked. In 20 playoff games that year Montreal scored 66 goals and gave up 57. 3.3gf average and 2.7ga average. Both numbers lower than regular seasons 3.88gfa and 3.33gaa. IMO, that team's ability to score was as important to the Cup as Roy. Maybe more. I did mention that we could score in 1993. Missed it! lol
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Post by franko on Jan 26, 2016 10:33:51 GMT -5
Tank for a high lottery pick. Anyone of Matthews or the two Finns are NHL ready now. At 17. Anyone of them makes an impact next year. as much as it pains me to say it, I don't think the team needs to tank . . . they just need to keep playing like they're playing. (I don't think you go to a team and say "boys, play poorly so we can dump some of you and get better replacements). maybe it isn't players playing like they're playing but coaches coaching like they're coaching. with that in mind, I repeat what has been said how many times: we have a coach that wants his players to play his system rather than a coach that allows players to play to their strength (see: PK turned defensively minded). as much as I think Karlsson is overrated as a d-man, he is allowed to take off with the puck. and occasionally the Senators actually score. what a fantastic idea!
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Post by franko on Jan 26, 2016 10:35:08 GMT -5
Having problems competing against the bigger teams fixed it, Dis . . . hope you don't mind.
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Post by blny on Jan 26, 2016 10:43:53 GMT -5
Tank for a high lottery pick. Anyone of Matthews or the two Finns are NHL ready now. At 17. Anyone of them makes an impact next year. as much as it pains me to say it, I don't think the team needs to tank . . . they just need to keep playing like they're playing. (I don't think you go to a team and say "boys, play poorly so we can dump some of you and get better replacements). "Tank" may be generalization, but whether they do it on purpose or it's a repeat of 2012 where it's something of a perfect storm the goal should be to aide in achieving as high a pick as possible. For the record, I am of the opinion that the group of players is good enough to contend. Right now the TEAM isn't and I have no faith in the coach's ability to fix it. I'm losing faith in the GM's ability to address it.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 26, 2016 10:53:46 GMT -5
Having problems competing against the bigger teams fixed it, Dis . . . hope you don't mind. Nah ... reads better, anyway ... Cheers.
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Post by habsburgher on Jan 26, 2016 11:15:29 GMT -5
Punt.
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Post by blny on Jan 26, 2016 11:27:48 GMT -5
You're assuming they still have a down left.
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Post by habsburgher on Jan 26, 2016 11:33:16 GMT -5
You're assuming they still have a down left. good point
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Post by HFTO on Jan 26, 2016 13:03:48 GMT -5
It 's over how do you expect a team that hasn't won back to back games in 2 months to win 2/3rds of their remaining games Price or no Price.
Unfortunately they can't blow it up because they are a tweener team with 5 pieces good in place blow it up now you risk blowing it up for a long long time.
Blowing it up would be moving one of our 5 young core guys I doubt they do that but they may have too if they can't get anything for their spare parts.
MB is at a cross roads he didn't want to be at ....worst thing to happen was the good result in the shortened season had they not had such a good year a decent pick maybe even a C would have fallen in MB's lap. Four years later he is in the worse place than when he started given his cap issues and aging players under contract.
This season is lost but can MB make the deals to right the ship next year..we'll see.
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Post by seventeen on Jan 26, 2016 13:23:38 GMT -5
This is a year where I think we can dump some players; not just the DSP's, Fleischman's but the some good assets like Markov, Plekanec, Desharnais, Emelin and get a somewhat nice return and help restock the cupboard with picks and players. I agree, but there's a need to understand realistic value. Brian Wilde called some NHL Executive (his description, not mine) to get some feedback. That guy's opinion was that Pleks and Markov get you back a 2nd rounder each. Desharnais, he described as a fringe NHL'r. Add in that you're paying a fringe NHL'r $3.5MM and he's essentially untradeable (my opinion). Offsetting this, and assuming the standings stay relatively similar between now and Feb 29th, is the fact you'd have a lot of buyers and not many sellers. That's an economic situation for high prices, so you might actually get more than the above predictions.
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Post by seventeen on Jan 26, 2016 13:26:14 GMT -5
It 's over how do you expect a team that hasn't won back to back games in 2 months to win 2/3rds of their remaining games Price or no Price. Unfortunately they can't blow it up because they are a tweener team with 5 pieces good in place blow it up now you risk blowing it up for a long long time. Blowing it up would be moving one of our 5 young core guys I doubt they do that but they may have too if they can't get anything for their spare parts. MB is at a cross roads he didn't want to be at ....worst thing to happen was the good result in the shortened season had they not had such a good year a decent pick maybe even a C would have fallen in MB's lap. Four years later he is in the worse place than when he started given his cap issues and aging players under contract. This season is lost but can MB make the deals to right the ship next year..we'll see. Yup. I've been advocating since Berg's Mea Culpa press conference, that we simply do nothing. Nature will take its course (and has been). Therrien will run the team into the ground, so no sense making a stupid trade, but if we can shed contracts and some older players for a decent return, go for it. Then retool at the draft, hire a solid coaching staff (but get someone other than Bergevin to lead it) and go from there.
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Post by blny on Jan 26, 2016 13:31:18 GMT -5
This is a year where I think we can dump some players; not just the DSP's, Fleischman's but the some good assets like Markov, Plekanec, Desharnais, Emelin and get a somewhat nice return and help restock the cupboard with picks and players. I agree, but there's a need to understand realistic value. Brian Wilde called some NHL Executive (his description, not mine) to get some feedback. That guy's opinion was that Pleks and Markov get you back a 2nd rounder each. Desharnais, he described as a fringe NHL'r. Add in that you're paying a fringe NHL'r $3.5MM and he's essentially untradeable (my opinion). Offsetting this, and assuming the standings stay relatively similar between now and Feb 29th, is the fact you'd have a lot of buyers and not many sellers. That's an economic situation for high prices, so you might actually get more than the above predictions. Not for nothing, but the league's executives are notorious for their wide and varying talent assessments. Any reporter could call around for anonymous sources to evaluate value until they got the value they wanted for the spin on their story. As for Desharnais, he is what he is. In the right situation, he's a perfectly capable NHLer. Tyler Bozak makes more, and has never had a season as good as Davey's best, but no one considers him a fringe NHLer. While I think there are teams that would pay more, I'll take it.
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 26, 2016 13:45:07 GMT -5
We get beaten by the Blue Jackets…and we're going to let them get Auston Matthews, too? So they can kick our butts for years to come???
Let's at least be great at tanking…
The next time I hear Bergevin say, "It's on me!", it better be in a bar.
[/mini-rant]
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Post by seventeen on Jan 26, 2016 13:46:58 GMT -5
Four points in his last twenty odd games, no defensive sense, easily pushed off the puck. I've been considering him no better than a 3rd liner for some time now and it's not beyond belief that he's now a fringe player. But yes, canvas someone else and you could just as easily get a different opinion. I don't think you'd find anyone who doesn't feel he's overpaid, though.
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Post by blny on Jan 26, 2016 13:53:25 GMT -5
Four points in his last twenty odd games, no defensive sense, easily pushed off the puck. I've been considering him no better than a 3rd liner for some time now and it's not beyond belief that he's now a fringe player. But yes, canvas someone else and you could just as easily get a different opinion. I don't think you'd find anyone who doesn't feel he's overpaid, though. Is he worse than Tyler Bozak, who's paid $4.2 million, though? Definitely seems strange to argue that point lol. I will say this, much like Emelin he seems to save his best for the Bruins. Bring in someone to hypnotize him. If you're a team blessed with an abundance of big wingers, and could use a play maker he's not the worst option and his salary isn't preposterous. $3.5 million for a 50 point player is almost a bargain these days. You can certainly make the point he's done a better job earning it than Eller has.
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