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Post by The Habitual Fan on Feb 4, 2016 16:07:55 GMT -5
Just offering a slightly different perspective then most of what I have read here in the past few months. I haven’t posted on this board for probably two years because of the negative and condensing attitude that seemed to take over. Some of that has not changed but there are several others that I have a strong respect for their opinions even when I may not always agree with the point of view. I do come here occasionally to get some information on what is happening with the Habs because it is still a good central location for news on the team.
Bergevin - I think his job should be absolutely safe and despite a horrible year I think he has done a good job. A lot has been made about not able to draft a start but in three years the most of his picks have been developing in the AHL and Europe. Montreal has not been in a position to draft a great young player of significance so the Hudon, McCarron, Della Rose have been improving on the farm. I have been to a dozen Ice Cap games and these players are improving and none may not be a star but all will be useful NHL players. The knock has been that he hasn’t been able to land a big young scoring center but if you follow other teams like Nashville, Boston, or many others and they are all looking for the same thing and not able to make a deal so that does not make him incompetent or not trying to improve the team. He has a mandate to build through the draft and that is what he is doing. Who has ever had a management job where your goal is not to improve the product you oversee and who also makes public every deal or employee you discuss. It is never done and GM of the Habs is no different than the GM of any other major business in that respect.
Therrian – I’m not a fan or an apologist and I doubt he is back next year but would not be surprised if he is. I think he has gotten a bad rap for the failings of the club just like he received little credit for the good record. They improved every year he has been here until now. They were viewed as legit contenders until December when Price got hurt. Lots of posters say he doesn’t like youth and cannot develop players but Subban, Gallagher, Patches, Galchenyuk and Beaulieu have developed under him as coach. Some will say they developed despite of him but had they not listened and played his style they likely would have moved on long before now. Maybe Galchenyuk is not a center, I have heard other commentators mention on how he skates with the puck without having a plan on where he is going, defensively he gets lost when picking up his man in the neutral zone. I even heard one commentator compare him to how Russ Courtnall could skate forever and go no where at times so maybe there is validity in the coaches opinion. I do blame the coach for some strange line choices or not changing the style a play when Price went down. Even playing the trap would have insulated Condon better and the games would have been boring but they may have won some of them 2-1. You can blame Therrian for a lot but last night for example Pacioretty doesn’t cover his man and leaves him alone for the first goal. PK doesn’t make an effort to tie up the players stick on the third goal. These are players with experience and big contracts that did not do what they should have so when Therrian says players did not execute and it cost them the game he is 100% right. The coach did not lose that game last night but sloppy play by the stars did and that has happened much too often.
Price – He is not only the team leader, league MVP but also a calming influence on everyone else on the ice. I’m not blaming Condon but he has not been able to steal a single game in Price’s absence. Price is like the ace of the pitching staff when you know you have lost two games he is not going to let you lose the next one, Condon does not have that ability. If the Habs could have lost 2-3 and then win one, this streak never happens. Price is also one of the best puck handling goalies in the league and that takes a lot of pressure off the defense and that has been missing. The defense have to come back deep for every puck and are grinded down by the end of the night, Price is key to the transition game that has been gone since he left. I really think the injury was hard to diagnosis and every week he was expected to be just two weeks away. That would explain why Bergevin didn’t look for a #1 goalie until now it is too late. In early December had they traded for Ward the Hurricanes would have wanted a lot, say McCarron and a 1st. Then if two weeks later Price is ready what do you do with two goalies making $12 million combined and have given up key assets. I don’t expect the Habs to stand pat and should move some of the veteran players but I don’t think a full rebuild is needed either. Give up a little more to get Drouin, move Plekanec, Gilbert, Emelin, Desharnasis, keep the lottery pick and start again next year.
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Post by Willie Dog on Feb 4, 2016 16:22:07 GMT -5
Good to see you posting again Bud. Good post and you have provided a different perspective which is, imo, always welcome on this great discussion board.
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Post by blny on Feb 4, 2016 17:20:51 GMT -5
Good thoughts. Glad to see you sharing.
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 4, 2016 17:50:26 GMT -5
Just offering a slightly different perspective then most of what I have read here in the past few months. I haven’t posted on this board for probably two years because of the negative and condensing attitude that seemed to take over. Some of that has not changed but there are several others that I have a strong respect for their opinions even when I may not always agree with the point of view. Respect for everyone's opinion is always upheld here, which doesn't include labelling other members as negative and condescending. Ignore the posters whose opinions get under your skin…
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Post by franko on Feb 4, 2016 18:24:12 GMT -5
THF, my only disagreement (surprise surprise) is your take on MT. while I agree he is not the sole problem, sometimes strategies need to change -- no, strategies do need to change when things aren't working, and he hasn't changed/adapted. look at the PP -- it hasn't worked for 3 years, but it is the same. heck, I'd sit PK for a couple of PPs just to shake things up and make the other players do something different. every team knows what to expect on the PP now; they just sit and wait for things to (not) happen. (I think that's a realistic analysis rather than a negative one ) but other than that, bang on!
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Post by UberCranky on Feb 4, 2016 19:50:39 GMT -5
Just offering a slightly different perspective then most of what I have read here in the past few months. I haven’t posted on this board for probably two years because of the negative and condensing attitude that seemed to take over. Some of that has not changed but there are several others that I have a strong respect for their opinions even when I may not always agree with the point of view. Respect for everyone's opinion is always upheld here, which doesn't include labelling other members as negative and condescending. Ignore the posters whose opinions get under your skin… Beat me to it! Everybody is free to share their opinion on the team.......and disagree. Code of Conduct
5. By definition, an opinion can never be wrong. Do not say it is.That includes passing judgment on value/perspective. Seventeen may be a huge fan of Therrien, but I can't and wont label/judge his opinion as naive, uninformed, unsophisticated, having no insight, full of steaming rice or lacking pork. It's HIS opinion. Period. End of story.
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Post by UberCranky on Feb 4, 2016 20:30:18 GMT -5
Just offering a slightly different perspective then most of what I have read here in the past few months. I haven’t posted on this board for probably two years because of the negative and condensing attitude that seemed to take over. Some of that has not changed but there are several others that I have a strong respect for their opinions even when I may not always agree with the point of view. I do come here occasionally to get some information on what is happening with the Habs because it is still a good central location for news on the team. Bergevin - I think his job should be absolutely safe and despite a horrible year I think he has done a good job. A lot has been made about not able to draft a start but in three years the most of his picks have been developing in the AHL and Europe. Montreal has not been in a position to draft a great young player of significance so the Hudon, McCarron, Della Rose have been improving on the farm. I have been to a dozen Ice Cap games and these players are improving and none may not be a star but all will be useful NHL players. The knock has been that he hasn’t been able to land a big young scoring center but if you follow other teams like Nashville, Boston, or many others and they are all looking for the same thing and not able to make a deal so that does not make him incompetent or not trying to improve the team. He has a mandate to build through the draft and that is what he is doing. Who has ever had a management job where your goal is not to improve the product you oversee and who also makes public every deal or employee you discuss. It is never done and GM of the Habs is no different than the GM of any other major business in that respect. Therrian – I’m not a fan or an apologist and I doubt he is back next year but would not be surprised if he is. I think he has gotten a bad rap for the failings of the club just like he received little credit for the good record. They improved every year he has been here until now. They were viewed as legit contenders until December when Price got hurt. Lots of posters say he doesn’t like youth and cannot develop players but Subban, Gallagher, Patches, Galchenyuk and Beaulieu have developed under him as coach. Some will say they developed despite of him but had they not listened and played his style they likely would have moved on long before now. Maybe Galchenyuk is not a center, I have heard other commentators mention on how he skates with the puck without having a plan on where he is going, defensively he gets lost when picking up his man in the neutral zone. I even heard one commentator compare him to how Russ Courtnall could skate forever and go no where at times so maybe there is validity in the coaches opinion. I do blame the coach for some strange line choices or not changing the style a play when Price went down. Even playing the trap would have insulated Condon better and the games would have been boring but they may have won some of them 2-1. You can blame Therrian for a lot but last night for example Pacioretty doesn’t cover his man and leaves him alone for the first goal. PK doesn’t make an effort to tie up the players stick on the third goal. These are players with experience and big contracts that did not do what they should have so when Therrian says players did not execute and it cost them the game he is 100% right. The coach did not lose that game last night but sloppy play by the stars did and that has happened much too often. Price – He is not only the team leader, league MVP but also a calming influence on everyone else on the ice. I’m not blaming Condon but he has not been able to steal a single game in Price’s absence. Price is like the ace of the pitching staff when you know you have lost two games he is not going to let you lose the next one, Condon does not have that ability. If the Habs could have lost 2-3 and then win one, this streak never happens. Price is also one of the best puck handling goalies in the league and that takes a lot of pressure off the defense and that has been missing. The defense have to come back deep for every puck and are grinded down by the end of the night, Price is key to the transition game that has been gone since he left. I really think the injury was hard to diagnosis and every week he was expected to be just two weeks away. That would explain why Bergevin didn’t look for a #1 goalie until now it is too late. In early December had they traded for Ward the Hurricanes would have wanted a lot, say McCarron and a 1st. Then if two weeks later Price is ready what do you do with two goalies making $12 million combined and have given up key assets. I don’t expect the Habs to stand pat and should move some of the veteran players but I don’t think a full rebuild is needed either. Give up a little more to get Drouin, move Plekanec, Gilbert, Emelin, Desharnasis, keep the lottery pick and start again next year. I don't agree on Bergevin and Therrien. This team can't go from a contender to a pretender overnight. Whatever "shortcommings" appear now where there two years ago, one year ago and October, which is to say, not as bad as they appear to be now. Given the variance in personalities and work ethic, the entire team can't all of a sudden be setting records of futility. At worse, we should be a mediocre team competing at the .500 level....not the ,250 level. So the only remaining explanation is that the team has quit on Therrien. Given the above, it's the GM's job to stop it. He hasn't. Therefore he has failed by allowing the failure to continue. Whatever good he has done, which in itself is limited, he's has let this slide continue too far and too long. If he can't or wont take action, he failed at his job.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 4, 2016 21:36:53 GMT -5
Welcome back THF. Different perspectives are good, especially since mine are so often different.
I agree with your ideas on some things and not at all on others. We’ll go from agreeable to the reverse. Your points about Price and Condon are accurate IMO. No one can replace Price. Condon has had his good moments. Last night for example, I thought he played quite well, but three plays from in close went in. He stopped several others, but just didn’t make that extra key save that would have helped. We are missing Price big time as would any team losing their best player. Having said that, I’m not sure every team would collapse as we have.
Bergevin I’m mostly in agreement with. I wouldn’t be firing him, at least not now. There is one point that would cause me to fire him and that gets covered later on. He’s built a better organization than existed before. I agree we haven’t had terrific opportunities to draft, with the top spot being #18 I believe, if you exclude Galchy. He was, along with Morgan Reilly, the best available from that draft, so what can you do? We got one of them. I’ve said all along that the guys from 2013 and on are almost ready to join the team, but not quite yet. They’re on the way, but not ready to help us now. Others have pointed out top 6 players who were obtained via trade, notably, Spezza and Seguin, but those came from our division and we weren’t likely to get them. Drouin’s available now, but Yzerman wants the moon for him despite his only scoring 3 points in 8 games in the A. I agree a lot with your opinion on Bergevin, but I still wish he’d have done less tinkering with the bottom 6 and gotten at least a fringe top 6 guy. Perhaps he did with Parenteau,, but once again, that didn’t work out…which brings me to your third opinion
It is here that I disagree with you and my concerns/complaints about Michel Therrien as a coach didn’t just begin this year. I have disliked his approach since his second year with the team.
It was clear then that the team was disorganized in its own end. Defensive discipline did not exist. Players watched the puck too much and did not remain aware of danger spots on the ice. Buffalo’s first goal last night was the perfect example. The Sabre had the puck in the corner and the right D went to check him. Suddenly he was joined by Emelin, for no particular reason. The danger spot, as Foligno pointed out, was the center of the ice, which Emelin vacated. You can blame it on the player, but it’s the coaches specific responsibility to put into place a system that players should follow. They don’t always, true, but that’s when natural consequences come into play. It certainly happened to Greg Pateryn. He made a mistake by racing across the ice to place a hit on a guy, and his check ended up scoring. He hasn’t seen the ice since. Emelin?….not quite the same treatment. So, to subtotal, Therrien lacks any kind of system in the defensive zone, resulting in the players not being where they should and pucks going into our net. When Carey was there, that happened a lot less, but didn’t make Therrien’s system any better, Price just prevented the consequences. Therrien talks meritocracy but we’ve seen over and over again that he prefers vets to youngsters, even if they’re no better. DSP and Emelin are the latest examples and beneficiaries of that policy. Pick a kid from St. John’s and they’ll produce more than DSP. I can’t accept that Emelin is better right now than Mark Barberio, but Emelin plays and Barberio sits.
Development of players. Patches didn’t develop under Therrien, he was already a 30 goal scorer. Gallagher has the kind of drive that would succeed no matter who was the coach. PK had played two full seasons in the NHL by the time Therrien took over. In fact, Therrien was one of PK’s biggest critics on anti-chambre. If you were going to give anyone credit for PK’s development, the most likely guy is Guy Boucher who coached him right out of juniour (53 points in 77 games as a 20 year old). If not him, then Jacques Martin or Randy Cunneyworth who had him his first two years in the NHL. Frankly, I think, like Gallagher, PK would succeed no matter who coached him. He has tremendous passion for the game.
Galchenyuk. Here’s the guy that should be the litmus test. Drafted 3rd overall, tons of talent and has played only for Therrien. Season 1 (shortened), .56 ppg Season 2 .48 ppg Season 3 .58 ppg Season 4 .58 ppg
I don’t call that development, I call it stagnation. Then you look at how he’s been ‘developed’. Drafted as a center, but placed on LW. Fair enough, young kid, needs to learn defensive awareness and the system. After 2 years, though, and with him being a centre and the team needing a centre, you’d think the development at centre would begin. Instead he was kept at LW, except for a short experiment of 12 games or so in Jan 2015. He scored well enough but Therrien said he had defensive shortcoming. There’s that meritocracy thing again, as his other offensive centre has equally serious defensive shortcomings and at his age, isn’t getting any better. Then he did the thing that destroyed any credibility I had for him. He said he took Galchenyuk off centre because Alex asked him to. A blatant lie as it turned out, since he approached Alex and told him he was moving him back to wing. Alex later stated he never asked to be switched and actually felt ok at centre. He certainly looked ok, with 9 points or so at that position.
I won’t go into the playing Murray and Cube ahead of Tinordi, or the roulette wheel he has Nathan Beaulieu on. In my opinion he has the worst skills of any coach we have ever had, proven once and now proven again.
That is the one fact on which I don’t understand Bergevin. He’s been fine in most areas IMO, but his loyalty to Therrien is more than puzzling. One can point to the points the team has gotten under him and I’ll point to Carey Price and then I’ll point to his record without Carey Price and it’s abysmal. Bergevin’s coaching judgment extends to Lefebvre. This will be the 4th year that the Habs farm team misses the playoffs. Despite some decent line-ups and certainly a pretty good one this year. How can you tolerate that level of performance? I couldn’t and most of the fans can’t. So, IMO, both Therrien and Lefebvre don’t implement good structure, don’t know how to handle players, don’t know how to use them best and don’t inspire them to play their best.
When Bergevin gave the team what should have been an inspirational speech, cementing that the coach wasn’t going anywhere and that their best course of action would be to play hard, the team’s response was to beat a lousy Leaf team in a shootout and then lose 4 games in a row to the worst teams in the league. In other words, they’re saying, we can outlast you Marc, and good luck trading us and if you do manage to move us on, well, thank you.
The losers in all this are us. The fans. The answer is exceedingly simple….remove Therrien from this equation and Lefebvre from the AHL equation and a lot of problems will resolve themselves. Then Bergevin can concentrate on just getting better players for the coach. This is the line in the sand for me. If Bergevin chooses to die on the Therrien mountain, so be it. They both go. Therrien has to be gone after April 9, but preferably before that so we can give the new coach time to judge the players and give our kids a chance to show what they can do.
Not such a different perspective, actually, except on one key point.
I also want to make the point that I try to focus my criticisms, or plaudits, on a person’s actions, not on them personally. Actions can be changed, always, hopefully, for the better. If I’ve missed the mark on occasion, I apologize. Cheers.
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Post by UberCranky on Feb 4, 2016 22:13:47 GMT -5
Bergevin I’m mostly in agreement with. I wouldn’t be firing him, at least not now. What? WHAT? Your full of steaming rice and lacking pork!!!!! Maybe it's me but since when is a GM allowed to keep his job by backing up one of his buddies to the detriment of the team? At what point does he pay the price for not acting on epic failure? What has he done that is so special to earn this "get out of the unemployment line FREE" card?
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 4, 2016 22:29:08 GMT -5
I heard an interesting insight on the radio today…that perhaps Bergevin was looking at the schedule when he made his end-of-season commitment to the coaching staff.
Toronto, Columbus, Columbus, Philly, and Buffalo…..and he thought…"They're all below us in the standings….perhaps we get a few wins…Price is closer to being ready…."
1-4-0 later…and a shoot-out win at that, with Condon securing the single-point near the end of the third and stopping 4 of 5 in the SO….
But yeah…I don't think any coach in professional sport has survived a 180 like this. Does anyone know?
Mitch Melnick said that the 1962 Mets, who went 40-120 in their inaugural season, didn't fire manager Casey Stengel….but most likely in deference to his glorious history with the Yankees (10 AL pennants and 7 WS titles in 12 years).
This is a different story…..
I like Bergevin…but his leash is no doubt shorter now….
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Post by PTH on Feb 4, 2016 22:41:50 GMT -5
Very interesting reading... I expect Bergevin to fire Therrien reluctantly, only because he feels he has to... both have repeatedly stated how they communicate every day about players and player usage, so I expect most of MT's decisions fit with Bergevin's opinion.
I do think that MT is still an excellent coach, but that the players have tuned him out after 3 and a half seasons, moreso when the sacrifices his system requires weren't getting wins anymore, which lead to a death spiral of players caring less and less, believing less and less in victory and just not making quite the same effort, which is all that's needed to lose more than your share of games in this league.
Right now I'm hoping that we finish dead last, get Austen Matthews and next season try and put it back together after changing coaches and a few players, mostly veterans who can attract short-term interest on other teams.
And I fully expect the next coach to speak French, that's essentially a requirement for the market, and I think anyone who isn't in synch enough with the Habs' market to see that should go out and get a jersey with the shiny new logo and cheer for that team. (Leafs)
Personally, I think there must be quite a few Ontario coaches who went through French immersion and together form quite a pool of candidates. All we need is Brian Savage/Mike McPhee/Marc Crawford caliber French, after all.
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Post by PTH on Feb 4, 2016 22:43:07 GMT -5
I heard an interesting insight on the radio today…that perhaps Bergevin was looking at the schedule when he made his end-of-season commitment to the coaching staff. I heard the same thing back at the time, and in fact Berg should probably have given that commitment earlier but I think he was aiming to do so when there were favourable circumstances.
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Post by folatre on Feb 4, 2016 22:44:50 GMT -5
Seventeen, that is good analysis.
The only thing I would add is Bergevin role in aiding and abetting his friend (excuse me, his coach). He should have traded one of the small "offensive" centres in summer 2014 or 2015 because no serious hockey minds see Plekanec and Desharnais 1-2 down the middle as realistic template for winning the Stanley Cup. Likewise, Bergevin should not have indulged Therrien other mania, overcollecting d-men (NHL most expensive d-corps this season) and utilising something other than a mericratic approach to man management with them.
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Post by PTH on Feb 4, 2016 23:40:15 GMT -5
Seventeen, that is good analysis. The only thing I would add is Bergevin role in aiding and abetting his friend (excuse me, his coach). He should have traded one of the small "offensive" centres in summer 2014 or 2015 because no serious hockey minds see Plekanec and Desharnais 1-2 down the middle as realistic template for winning the Stanley Cup. Likewise, Bergevin should not have indulged Therrien other mania, overcollecting d-men (NHL most expensive d-corps this season) and utilising something other than a mericratic approach to man management with them. I don't see why MT gets the blame for the overabundance of d-men. For all we know, Bergevin imposed Tinordi on MT, telling his he had to keep him in the active lineup, while both of them knew he'd get little to no actual icetime. Given how Barberio was sent down but clearly stuck in MT's head as a useful replacement, Tinordi was essentially our #9 defenseman from the start...
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Post by Skilly on Feb 5, 2016 0:44:55 GMT -5
Seventeen beat me to the development of the players under Therrien.
But one thing that needs to be pointed out is that Bergevin's mandate was not to build this team through the draft. He already had Pacioretty, Price and Subban, then immediately added the best player in his first draft, Galchenyuk.
When we hired him, this board was alive with whispers of yet another 5yr plan. A small minority pointed out that this team was on the cusp, and 5yrs was too long. But even if we assume that we were beginning another 5 yr building plan, well year 4 is over. How exactly did Bergevin build through the draft? So next year is now all or nothing in this 5 yr plan? Or are we adding onto the 5 yrs now? That's regressing. I'd also like to point out that in a 5 yr building plan, it is folly to only improve the bottom six and completely ignore 4 years into it, this teams greatest weakness .... Goals.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 5, 2016 2:26:08 GMT -5
Bergevin I’m mostly in agreement with. I wouldn’t be firing him, at least not now. What? WHAT? Your full of steaming rice and lacking pork!!!!! Maybe it's me but since when is a GM allowed to keep his job by backing up one of his buddies to the detriment of the team? At what point does he pay the price for not acting on epic failure? What has he done that is so special to earn this "get out of the unemployment line FREE" card? The reason is that I don't know for a fact that he and Therrien are bosom buddies or closet cousins. Like I didn't know that Therrien had pulled Galchy off the centre position until much later. I suspected it, because it all smelled very fishy, but when Chuck came out and admitted he hadn't asked to be pulled off, I knew Therrien acted in a self serving manner and not for the betterment of the team. I certainly wasn't pleased with the hiring of Nick Carriere, Larry's son, for an assistant coaching job in Hamilton. His experience consisted of some juniour college coaching where they played 6 games a year. Obvious nepotism. That move seemed to indicate that expertise at hockey was not the prime requirement for a job with the Habs organization. What I suspect and what I know are two different things. I suspect Therrien and Bergevin are very much on the same page. Why else would one extend a guy who obviously counts on a great goaltender to put up winning numbers? Why else extend a guy whose last and only championship was 20 years ago? Even that might be tainted IMO. Why else would a GM put up with the insane line-up decision we see on a regular basis. Or the lack of a proper system. We all complained last year about being constantly hemmed in oru end. Nothing's changed. Without Carey, the puck's going in. That's the difference. The proof that Therrien and Bergevin are tied at the hip will come if Therrien manages to stick. If he's not on the EI line by April 10th I'm on the "dump Bergevin" bandwagon.
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Post by habsorbed on Feb 5, 2016 2:50:38 GMT -5
What? WHAT? Your full of steaming rice and lacking pork!!!!! Maybe it's me but since when is a GM allowed to keep his job by backing up one of his buddies to the detriment of the team? At what point does he pay the price for not acting on epic failure? What has he done that is so special to earn this "get out of the unemployment line FREE" card? The reason is that I don't know for a fact that he and Therrien are bosom buddies or closet cousins. Like I didn't know that Therrien had pulled Galchy off the centre position until much later. I suspected it, because it all smelled very fishy, but when Chuck came out and admitted he hadn't asked to be pulled off, I knew Therrien acted in a self serving manner and not for the betterment of the team. I certainly wasn't pleased with the hiring of Nick Carriere, Larry's son, for an assistant coaching job in Hamilton. His experience consisted of some juniour college coaching where they played 6 games a year. Obvious nepotism. That move seemed to indicate that expertise at hockey was not the prime requirement for a job with the Habs organization. What I suspect and what I know are two different things. I suspect Therrien and Bergevin are very much on the same page. Why else would one extend a guy who obviously counts on a great goaltender to put up winning numbers? Why else extend a guy whose last and only championship was 20 years ago? Even that might be tainted IMO. Why else would a GM put up with the insane line-up decision we see on a regular basis. Or the lack of a proper system. We all complained last year about being constantly hemmed in oru end. Nothing's changed. Without Carey, the puck's going in. That's the difference. The proof that Therrien and Bergevin are tied at the hip will come if Therrien manages to stick. If he's not on the EI line by April 10th I'm on the "dump Bergevin" bandwagon. I agree with everything you say. Problem is that if MB's reason for keeping MT now is 1) Price is injured, 2) the players are the problem, 3) puck luck, 4) loyalty, or 5) whatever, how will that have changed come April. I firmly believe MB and MT are on the same page. But it is not a page out of a hockey text book but some fairy tale where the deeper they sink the grander the glory when they rise. Apologies to all the rose coloured glasses folks but Bambi's mom was killed and is not coming back to life. We are not improving as long as MT is behind the bench.
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Post by Disp on Feb 5, 2016 6:36:27 GMT -5
Habs are 4th best in shots for per game and, surprisingly, 4th best in shots allowed. Stats guys should be happy I guess.
The coach cannot make them hit the corners, he cannot make saves, and he certainly isn't telling them to blow coverage.
I blame the players. MB and MT have been protecting them publicly, but most don't play with enough jam. We have a weak team, mentally and physically.
I've said it before, most gm's would probably be better off doing nothing at all, most of them just eff things up. I'm sure MB would love to make a great franchise changing move, but unless something great falls into his lap, it's probably not going to happen. Far better to just keep your picks and wait it out.
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Post by mikeg on Feb 5, 2016 8:14:52 GMT -5
Good read, and good points.
Basically I think it boils down to the following:
Bergy and MT had one job. Turn the #3 overall pick they started their journey with into a your franchise center.
I evaluate everything based on that one core moment. And quite honestly they have failed miserably at doing that one essential thing they needed to do.
For me that is an unforgiveable failure. Compound it with the fact that he gave MT and extension a year before he had to, the sainting of "character" as the trait that decides your fate... the PK bridge contract, the Desharnais, Emelin and Plekanec extensions, the way Price's injury has been handled and not adressing the need to get a goalie fast enough and his press conference as the final nail.
He's done nothing of substance. He has the charm of a snake oil salesman really and he's gots to go
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 5, 2016 9:26:35 GMT -5
Good read, and good points. Absolutely ... Cheers.
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Post by madhabber on Feb 5, 2016 9:50:13 GMT -5
I expect the coaching staff for both Habs and IceCaps to be gone at the end of the year.
They both employ the same system right. One has done good until now and the other hasn't done any good at all since he came into the organization. What's the difference from good to bad. Carey Price. That's it. This is the same team that went 9-0. And now they 4-1,000 since Price isn't here. Lefebvre never had a Carey Price. So what is it. It's gotta be the system. Insert Carey Price we are a top team. Take Price out we are the worst team. Lefebvre has probably known this for 4 years but said nothing because he has a job which no other team will ever give him again. You can replace both with chimps at this point and get the same results. Line combinations will make as much sense also.
Fire the coaches at the end of the season and grab your lottery draft pick and go from there. And don't be too hasty to give new contracts to personnel you can do without. Like your coach, your #2 and 3 centers (Pleks and DD). You should only hurry to sign your #1 guys like PK, Carey, Patches, Gally.
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Post by blny on Feb 5, 2016 10:12:53 GMT -5
Welcome back THF. Different perspectives are good, especially since mine are so often different. I agree with your ideas on some things and not at all on others. We’ll go from agreeable to the reverse. Your points about Price and Condon are accurate IMO. No one can replace Price. Condon has had his good moments. Last night for example, I thought he played quite well, but three plays from in close went in. He stopped several others, but just didn’t make that extra key save that would have helped. We are missing Price big time as would any team losing their best player. Having said that, I’m not sure every team would collapse as we have. Bergevin I’m mostly in agreement with. I wouldn’t be firing him, at least not now. There is one point that would cause me to fire him and that gets covered later on. He’s built a better organization than existed before. I agree we haven’t had terrific opportunities to draft, with the top spot being #18 I believe, if you exclude Galchy. He was, along with Morgan Reilly, the best available from that draft, so what can you do? We got one of them. I’ve said all along that the guys from 2013 and on are almost ready to join the team, but not quite yet. They’re on the way, but not ready to help us now. Others have pointed out top 6 players who were obtained via trade, notably, Spezza and Seguin, but those came from our division and we weren’t likely to get them. Drouin’s available now, but Yzerman wants the moon for him despite his only scoring 3 points in 8 games in the A. I agree a lot with your opinion on Bergevin, but I still wish he’d have done less tinkering with the bottom 6 and gotten at least a fringe top 6 guy. Perhaps he did with Parenteau,, but once again, that didn’t work out…which brings me to your third opinion It is here that I disagree with you and my concerns/complaints about Michel Therrien as a coach didn’t just begin this year. I have disliked his approach since his second year with the team. It was clear then that the team was disorganized in its own end. Defensive discipline did not exist. Players watched the puck too much and did not remain aware of danger spots on the ice. Buffalo’s first goal last night was the perfect example. The Sabre had the puck in the corner and the right D went to check him. Suddenly he was joined by Emelin, for no particular reason. The danger spot, as Foligno pointed out, was the center of the ice, which Emelin vacated. You can blame it on the player, but it’s the coaches specific responsibility to put into place a system that players should follow. They don’t always, true, but that’s when natural consequences come into play. It certainly happened to Greg Pateryn. He made a mistake by racing across the ice to place a hit on a guy, and his check ended up scoring. He hasn’t seen the ice since. Emelin?….not quite the same treatment. So, to subtotal, Therrien lacks any kind of system in the defensive zone, resulting in the players not being where they should and pucks going into our net. When Carey was there, that happened a lot less, but didn’t make Therrien’s system any better, Price just prevented the consequences. Therrien talks meritocracy but we’ve seen over and over again that he prefers vets to youngsters, even if they’re no better. DSP and Emelin are the latest examples and beneficiaries of that policy. Pick a kid from St. John’s and they’ll produce more than DSP. I can’t accept that Emelin is better right now than Mark Barberio, but Emelin plays and Barberio sits. Development of players. Patches didn’t develop under Therrien, he was already a 30 goal scorer. Gallagher has the kind of drive that would succeed no matter who was the coach. PK had played two full seasons in the NHL by the time Therrien took over. In fact, Therrien was one of PK’s biggest critics on anti-chambre. If you were going to give anyone credit for PK’s development, the most likely guy is Guy Boucher who coached him right out of juniour (53 points in 77 games as a 20 year old). If not him, then Jacques Martin or Randy Cunneyworth who had him his first two years in the NHL. Frankly, I think, like Gallagher, PK would succeed no matter who coached him. He has tremendous passion for the game. Galchenyuk. Here’s the guy that should be the litmus test. Drafted 3rd overall, tons of talent and has played only for Therrien. Season 1 (shortened), .56 ppg Season 2 .48 ppg Season 3 .58 ppg Season 4 .58 ppg I don’t call that development, I call it stagnation. Then you look at how he’s been ‘developed’. Drafted as a center, but placed on LW. Fair enough, young kid, needs to learn defensive awareness and the system. After 2 years, though, and with him being a centre and the team needing a centre, you’d think the development at centre would begin. Instead he was kept at LW, except for a short experiment of 12 games or so in Jan 2015. He scored well enough but Therrien said he had defensive shortcoming. There’s that meritocracy thing again, as his other offensive centre has equally serious defensive shortcomings and at his age, isn’t getting any better. Then he did the thing that destroyed any credibility I had for him. He said he took Galchenyuk off centre because Alex asked him to. A blatant lie as it turned out, since he approached Alex and told him he was moving him back to wing. Alex later stated he never asked to be switched and actually felt ok at centre. He certainly looked ok, with 9 points or so at that position. I won’t go into the playing Murray and Cube ahead of Tinordi, or the roulette wheel he has Nathan Beaulieu on. In my opinion he has the worst skills of any coach we have ever had, proven once and now proven again. That is the one fact on which I don’t understand Bergevin. He’s been fine in most areas IMO, but his loyalty to Therrien is more than puzzling. One can point to the points the team has gotten under him and I’ll point to Carey Price and then I’ll point to his record without Carey Price and it’s abysmal. Bergevin’s coaching judgment extends to Lefebvre. This will be the 4th year that the Habs farm team misses the playoffs. Despite some decent line-ups and certainly a pretty good one this year. How can you tolerate that level of performance? I couldn’t and most of the fans can’t. So, IMO, both Therrien and Lefebvre don’t implement good structure, don’t know how to handle players, don’t know how to use them best and don’t inspire them to play their best. When Bergevin gave the team what should have been an inspirational speech, cementing that the coach wasn’t going anywhere and that their best course of action would be to play hard, the team’s response was to beat a lousy Leaf team in a shootout and then lose 4 games in a row to the worst teams in the league. In other words, they’re saying, we can outlast you Marc, and good luck trading us and if you do manage to move us on, well, thank you. The losers in all this are us. The fans. The answer is exceedingly simple….remove Therrien from this equation and Lefebvre from the AHL equation and a lot of problems will resolve themselves. Then Bergevin can concentrate on just getting better players for the coach. This is the line in the sand for me. If Bergevin chooses to die on the Therrien mountain, so be it. They both go. Therrien has to be gone after April 9, but preferably before that so we can give the new coach time to judge the players and give our kids a chance to show what they can do. Not such a different perspective, actually, except on one key point. I also want to make the point that I try to focus my criticisms, or plaudits, on a person’s actions, not on them personally. Actions can be changed, always, hopefully, for the better. If I’ve missed the mark on occasion, I apologize. Cheers. Hard to argue with any of that 17, for me at least. We're definitely on about the same page.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 5, 2016 12:49:19 GMT -5
Habs are 4th best in shots for per game and, surprisingly, 4th best in shots allowed. Stats guys should be happy I guess. The coach cannot make them hit the corners, he cannot make saves, and he certainly isn't telling them to blow coverage. I blame the players. MB and MT have been protecting them publicly, but most don't play with enough jam. We have a weak team, mentally and physically. I've said it before, most gm's would probably be better off doing nothing at all, most of them just eff things up. I'm sure MB would love to make a great franchise changing move, but unless something great falls into his lap, it's probably not going to happen. Far better to just keep your picks and wait it out. I won't quote Mark Twain about statistics, but you do have to be careful with them. If one dug deeper into when the shots took place, where they came from, (high scoring areas in front of the net or from the blueline) I could likely paint a far different picture. Those stats you quoted are probably for the full year, but correct me if I'm wrong. We got off to a fabulous start, but since December, the stats are markedly different and have been punctuated by Carey being hurt. What were our stats last year? It's pretty much the exact same team, but without Carey. Our advanced stats were bad last year. I think we were 20th to 28th or so in most possession categories. And we garnered 110 points. I don't recall our shooting percentage, but I don't think it was especially great, probably average, around the 7 to 8 % rate, but our goaltending was at 93+%. Same system, same players. So the question I ask myself is, should this team be in the running for the top draft choice simply because we lost our best player? I don't think that would be the case with any contending team in the league. If Chicago lost Toews or LA lost Doughty or Kopitar, they'd still make the playoffs. Yes, we need at least one more scorer. Two would be even better, and some size. I'm not blaming the coach for players losing puck battles because he can't do anything about their size. That's Berg's responsibility. But I can say that players running around in their own end is his responsibility. Other coaches manage to keep their players disciplined defensively. And I do attribute the poor performance of the PP to coaching. What's really frustrating is that the changes needed to improve it aren't complicated. There was an excellent analysis of PK's work on the PP in the last 4 or 5 years. His PP goals, by and large, have come from the left side of the ice, usually around the top of the face-off circle and toward the middle. Not from the blue line. So, for 3 years at least, Therrien has been placing PK on the right side instead. Only recently has PK occasionally been on the left. And yes, Skilly, take a bow at this point. The data showed most of PK's shots this year coming from the right or middle, and very close to the blue line. Those are terrible places to shoot from. The analyst also points out that PP goals are most common when the goalie is forced to move quickly from one side to the other. Making a pass from the right boards to a right handed PK for a shot doesn't work because the goalie hardly has to move. The puck travels a long way, but almost all vertically, not horizontally. Even I can understand this principle. But the guys behind our bench don't seem to get it, or don't want to get it. Would Therrien have done better with better players? Very likely, but it's his job to get the most out of what he has. To me, that's squeaking into the playoffs without Carey Price. We've gone well beyond the possibility of a playoff spot. I remember one stat earlier this year, that the probability of us making the playoffs was 98%. That was surely at the end of November. It's now 16% I think. I just can't put that all on one player. Yeah, Carey's important, but he's not that important. We're not getting what we should out of everyone else, and that's on the coach, IMO. I agree with you, Disp, on Berg's options. When you're down, other GM's are offering a boot, not a hand. What he can do, though, is set up the team for success next year, by getting the best coach he can. What a great opportunity this is. I hope he makes the best of it.
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Post by spotter on Feb 5, 2016 14:25:09 GMT -5
Bear with me: I used to love eating Glosette Raisins (you know, chocolate covered raisins). I would take a handful, throw them in my mouth and bite down hard and chew. I loved the flavour, texture and sensation it gave me. One day, while going through my ritual, I felt a tooth crack or break, followed immediately by an unbelievable sharp pain emanating from my cheek, forcing me to spit out the contents of my mouth. Somehow a chocolate covered nut of a very hard nature had found its way into my package of Glosettes and had caused so much damage that ended up costing me $1236.00 in dental work (no dental plan). Of course, I could have sued Glosettes for their failure to adequately supervise their quality control practices. I may have even demanded that the supervisor or shift manager be fired for gross negligence or incompetence. At the least, I could have insisted that Glosettes pay for my dental work. But, in the end, what would that have accomplished? At some point, I must take responsibility for what I put in my mouth and pay more attention to the ultimate consequences of my actions. This experience, perhaps in a rather obtuse way, parallels what I see going on with the Habs. I see a lone nut or two affecting the team as a whole. Never has it been more apparent that this team is completely out of sync. Basic hockey fundamentals have gone out the window. There is no coherence to their play, which undeniably is a coaching issue. But! Let’s just say that there is some inner team dynamic going on that has been festering for over 2 years.
The Habs have one player who is grossly underpaid for what he brings to the table and one player who, IMO, is grossly overpaid for what he brings. One tends to be introverted and seemingly petulant while the other is extroverted and over-the-top in his demeanor and dress. Two guys vying for respect from their teammates and adoration from the fans. If you are on this team what player camp would you gravitate toward, the introvert or the extrovert? Why should you even have to choose? Well, it has become obvious that friction exists (if asked, I will give some examples) and it is infecting the entire team. This situation is not a coaching issue. It is a management issue and must be dealt with using extreme care. Certainly, players can be dealt, placed on waivers, sent to the minors, bought out and treated like the chattel they are, but a more humane solution is required for this type of situation. Firing the coach is another alternative, however, it would not solve the on-gong angst brewing and billowing just below the surface. Unless the situation is addressed in a very short time one of two things will happen: open revolt or quiet implosion.
This is my take on the current Habs. They are not the team or teams of my youth and I have had to adjust my expectations accordingly. But I remain a loyal fan and feel very fortunate to have witnessed an organization whose standard of excellence was once sans souci.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 5, 2016 14:43:39 GMT -5
Bear with me: I used to love eating Glosette Raisins (you know, chocolate covered raisins). I would take a handful, throw them in my mouth and bite down hard and chew. I loved the flavour, texture and sensation it gave me. One day, while going through my ritual, I felt a tooth crack or break, followed immediately by an unbelievable sharp pain emanating from my cheek, forcing me to spit out the contents of my mouth. Somehow a chocolate covered nut of a very hard nature had found its way into my package of Glosettes and had caused so much damage that ended up costing me $1236.00 in dental work (no dental plan). Of course, I could have sued Glosettes for their failure to adequately supervise their quality control practices. I may have even demanded that the supervisor or shift manager be fired for gross negligence or incompetence. At the least, I could have insisted that Glosettes pay for my dental work. But, in the end, what would that have accomplished? At some point, I must take responsibility for what I put in my mouth and pay more attention to the ultimate consequences of my actions. This experience, perhaps in a rather obtuse way, parallels what I see going on with the Habs. I see a lone nut or two affecting the team as a whole. Never has it been more apparent that this team is completely out of sync. Basic hockey fundamentals have gone out the window. There is no coherence to their play, which undeniably is a coaching issue. But! Let’s just say that there is some inner team dynamic going on that has been festering for over 2 years. The Habs have one player who is grossly underpaid for what he brings to the table and one player who, IMO, is grossly overpaid for what he brings. One tends to be introverted and seemingly petulant while the other is extroverted and over-the-top in his demeanor and dress. Two guys vying for respect from their teammates and adoration from the fans. If you are on this team what player camp would you gravitate toward, the introvert or the extrovert? Why should you even have to choose? Well, it has become obvious that friction exists (if asked, I will give some examples) and it is infecting the entire team. This situation is not a coaching issue. It is a management issue and must be dealt with using extreme care. Certainly, players can be dealt, placed on waivers, sent to the minors, bought out and treated like the chattel they are, but a more humane solution is required for this type of situation. Firing the coach is another alternative, however, it would not solve the on-gong angst brewing and billowing just below the surface. Unless the situation is addressed in a very short time one of two things will happen: open revolt or quiet implosion. This is my take on the current Habs. They are not the team or teams of my youth and I have had to adjust my expectations accordingly. But I remain a loyal fan and feel very fortunate to have witnessed an organization whose standard of excellence was once sans souci. Welcome back, Spotter ... good to see you on the boards again ... it's possible that one or two players could be affecting the dressing room ... Subban relishes the limelight, while Markov avoids it like the plague ... it's hard to know what's what, though, without actually being in the room ... I don't think Pacioretty is a strong captain but that's only me ... besides, who would you replace him with ... Gallagher was a candidate, as was Subban ... I like both Plekanec and Markov, but Pleks is way too inconsistent while Markov is starting to see the game gradually pass him by ... if you can't tell, I just a tad disappointed with the leadership our club has these days ... Cheers.
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Post by blny on Feb 5, 2016 14:50:56 GMT -5
Given that the players chose who not only wears the C, but who wears the A's, home and away, I don't put much stock in the theory that Subban has created a rift in the room.
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Post by mikeg on Feb 5, 2016 15:02:53 GMT -5
Can we not do the Captain drama thing? The players voted. They know more than any of us.
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Post by spotter on Feb 5, 2016 15:31:03 GMT -5
Interestingly, I have not suggested that Subban acting alone is the problem. What I am suggesting is that what is going on between Subban and Pacioretty is causing some issues. Without Mr. Calm (Price) playing and maintaining a composed locker room there is no apparent outlet valve available to release the pressure.
Pacioretty has expressed concerns over the way Subban shoots from the point and what do we see? A Subban who, more often than not, fakes his shot or goes for the bank off the back boards to some teammate whose job it is to go to the front of the net for the rebound.
The second Columbus game before the All Star break, Subban takes a shot without faking and it goes off the side of Pacioretty’s face. Pacioretty goes to the dressing room not to return. When asked about the injury the first game back against Philadelphia, Pacioretty states he would rather not talk about it. Why Subban should be singled out as the so-called problem is not my intention. There is a clash, IMO, between two competitive teammates whose style of interaction is at odds. An intermediary such as Price (whether he’s aware of his role or not is mute) is not available, thus chaos. Who on this current roster would challenge Pacioretty or Subban to cool it?
Thanks Disgruntled. I come by almost every day for my Habs fix from this great board and find that I fit fight in with most of the opinions expressed. The psychological make-up of the team is my area of interest. Without having access to the room I am driven to speculation but isn't that at the heart of solving most mysteries?
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Post by mikeg on Feb 5, 2016 15:42:03 GMT -5
I think that losing shows everyone's true stripes. If Max's behavior is somehow indicative of some sort of personal issue with Subban than he needs to worry more about his own job of scoring goals and less about PK.
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Post by Willie Dog on Feb 5, 2016 20:25:39 GMT -5
I think that losing shows everyone's true stripes. If Max's behavior is somehow indicative of some sort of personal issue with Subban than he needs to worry more about his own job of scoring goals and less about PK. Also PKs remark about it not being his job to score goals could have been a shot at Max. Which sort of lends itself to Spotters post.
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