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Post by Psycorp on Oct 23, 2002 18:26:37 GMT -5
It began on the Houle’s regime, a new idea, a purpose, a vision of the future. With Martin madden and André Savard as advisors, Houle began a three phases plan.
First: collect underpants, second: _______, third: profits ….NO sorry… not that one
Build from back to forward: Goalies to Defense to Centers to Wingers.
This is Colorado and New Jersey like style.
Theodore’s emergence kind of settled the goalie situation, a Hart and Vezina winner still young with room to improve was a solid base to built from. With Garon, Tarasov*, Puurula and Michaud following, the habs then focused on defense.
They needed a big three unit with solids veterants to take them under their wings. The three are: Hainsey, Komisarek and Markov. Savard followed with signing long term contracts with the veterants they wanted to keep long therm: Brisebois, Rivet and Dykhuis Those three will see their roles gradually reduced over the years as the youngsters rise. They did’nt stop there, they got solid D draftees coming up to back them: Archer, Linhart, Sashby (forget Descoteaux, Beauchemin and Jarventie). We also got a wildcard in russian Konstantin Korneev.. As for Souray, he is still a question mark. He could be part of the plan but injuries have stalled his developpement. This year could be “the one “ for him. He got a lot to prove and his size and playoff performance makes him an attractive trade bait…<br> And now we come to the goal of this post: Centers “Montreal, we got a problem” Our forwards are mainly composed of a lot of fill ins, especially at center. Koivu being the only one fondation brick. Juneau, Gilmour and Perreault are short term patches. You know Savard’s moto: building from within right? Then, let’s see what we got:
Ribeiro, Plekaneck, Higgins, Landry, Gratton, Deveaux and Himelfarb. All of them beside one (Deveaux) are 5’11” or less. Some of them could be second line material: Ribeiro, Plekaneck Higgins. The problem is, Koivu is small and we don’t have anyone with size. To be a serious contender, we need two dominant centers (sakic/Forsberg ,Modano/nieuwendyk, Yzerman/Federov, Arnott/Holik). Those are the teams who won the Stanley cup the last several years. We got Koivu and…the fact is, we have no one with size AND talent to back him up in the near or mid-term future.
We got three possible solutions: 1-draft one this year 2-Trade for one 3-put back one of our youngsters from wing to center (Chouinard, Bulis, Hossa, Larrivée)
For solution 3: Forget about Chouinard and Larrivée, they are’nt physicals at all. Bulis don’t like to play center, he said it last year (maybe he’ll change his mind over the years) Maybe Hossa?
Anyway, those are my tought, enough fuel to start a debate? What do you think? Cheers.
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Post by MPLABBE on Oct 23, 2002 18:41:34 GMT -5
Excellent post
I will say it again. Look at the teams that won the cup in the past decade/15 tears...ALL of them had 2 great centers.
Detroit: Yzerman-Fedorov Colorado:Sakic-Forsberg Dallas:Modano-Nieuwy Devils:Arnott-Holik-Gomez Rangers:Messier-? (did they have another guy?) Us: Muller-Damphousse Pens:Mario-Francis Oilers:Messier-Gretz Calgary: Gilmour-Nieuwendyk
The Habs need a big number 2 center. Someone who can back up Koivu. Someone who can fill as a number 1 when needed.
I would definitely trade Plekanec or Higgins or Ribeiro in a package to get a player like this. Eventually, one of those centers will have to go.
Now on the wing...Zednik looks like he'll be a solid forward for a long time, let's hope Bulis continues to emerge, Kilger can become a solid grinder and some of our prospects(Perezhogin, Balej, Hossa, Milroy especially) can become solid if not great goal scorers in the NHL.
The other thing we need is to have a number 1 d-man emerge. I am fairly confident this will happen.
We are not that far away...but still a player or two or 3 away!
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Post by Viper on Oct 23, 2002 18:49:48 GMT -5
Excellent post psycorp the fact that we are solid on d and have alot of frills that need to be departed finding a center may not be that easy hopefully plan c works and one of either hossa and Bulis can make a transition because right now up the middle is scary.
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Post by Psycorp on Oct 23, 2002 18:57:42 GMT -5
MP, i'd like to keep Higgins, i think he could be the perfect replacement for Juneau. good defensively, with some grit and enough upside to take second line duty once in a while.
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Post by MPLABBE on Oct 23, 2002 18:59:19 GMT -5
MP, i'd like to keep Higgins, i think he could be the perfect replacement for Juneau. good defensively, with some grit and enough upside to take second line duty once in a while. Same here. I am thinking Ribeiro and Pleks are the guys who will have trouble getting that number 2 center spot behind a similar player to them in Saku. Higgins looks like he could become another Peca. Which would be great
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Post by PTH on Oct 23, 2002 19:25:51 GMT -5
Higgins looks like he could become another Peca. Which would be great Peca ? Marc, do you read the same scouting reports everyone else does ? He's typically compared to a Juneau or a Drury type player, nothing like the sandpaper Peca brings. Very, very few college players bring serious grit to the table. Sean Hill is the only one who comes to mind...
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Post by PTH on Oct 23, 2002 19:41:41 GMT -5
... Detroit: Yzerman-Fedorov Colorado:Sakic-Forsberg Dallas:Modano-Nieuwy Devils:Arnott-Holik-Gomez Rangers:Messier-? (did they have another guy?) Us: Muller-Damphousse Pens:Mario-Francis Oilers:Messier-Gretz Calgary: Gilmour-Nieuwendyk Damphousse wasn't a center during the 93 run, we've told you this already. Odds are at least one of the two won't work out at all anyhow, so why worry ? Zed is in his prime now, in 5 years he might be gone.... you can't build a team like a lego set, adding pieces left and right, it's a process where you need to always have a bit of everything.
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Post by seventeen on Oct 23, 2002 19:47:19 GMT -5
It began on the Houle’s regime, a new idea, a purpose, a vision of the future. With Martin madden and André Savard as advisors, Houle began a three phases plan. First: collect underpants, second: _______, third: profits ….NO sorry… not that one Good post Pyscorp, though I thought it started to go downhill after the above. The cheapest way to get a good centre is draft one, but that takes time. If things fall into place this year, we may be able to trade for one, but it will require a team's goaltending to fall apart and for us to offer up a goalie and some other players (d-man, 1 or 2 of our young prospects who haven't failed yet...but not a top tier one). The strength of the deal will have to come from goaltending, because that's where we have some depth. We just need buyers and the right kind of buyer. Too bad we didn't go big time for Vinny last year. Marc was leading the charge for that deal and a few of us were climbing that bandwagon....it had an escalator, so was easy).
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Post by MPLABBE on Oct 23, 2002 19:48:34 GMT -5
Peca ? Marc, do you read the same scouting reports everyone else does ? He's typically compared to a Juneau or a Drury type player, nothing like the sandpaper Peca brings. Very, very few college players bring serious grit to the table. Sean Hill is the only one who comes to mind... Of course maybe not with the grit/leadership of Peca but the same kind of player: solid all around, has speed, good hands, not big,etc
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Post by MPLABBE on Oct 23, 2002 19:49:33 GMT -5
Damphousse wasn't a center during the 93 run, we've told you this already. So who was the 2nd line center? Carbo? Lebeau?
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Post by MPLABBE on Oct 23, 2002 19:50:38 GMT -5
Too bad we didn't go big time for Vinny last year. Marc was leading the charge for that deal and a few of us were climbing that bandwagon....it had an escalator, so was easy). I don't think we had(and have) the assests to get him so it's basically a moot point..
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Post by Psycorp on Oct 23, 2002 19:59:23 GMT -5
So who was the 2nd line center? Carbo? Lebeau? wasn't it LeClair who played center at the time?
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Post by Psycorp on Oct 23, 2002 20:05:48 GMT -5
[quote author=seventeen Good post Pyscorp, though I thought it started to go downhill after the above. [/quote] It began at houle's last year, i suppose Savard or Madden convinced him he needed a plan
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Oct 23, 2002 20:06:53 GMT -5
Nice job Phycorp. Thanks. I think any successful team has started from the goal and worked their way out. Unfortunately, we haven't been too successful at building past the goal As for our defense, well, I know help is on the way and our future looks bright, but do you think Théodore could have won the hardware he did last year, without our defense? I mean, really, if they weren't so darn pourous, Théo would never have gotten the chances he did Still, that defense looked very good against the Penguins last night. I honestly think they can play that way all the time actually. Sure they made some mistakes, but they also looked confident last night. The top three blueliners last night? Not in any order, Rivet, Markov, and Hainsey/Quintal. Brisebois and Dykhuis didn't look all that confident at times. They seemed to be on the ice most of the time Mario was, but it seemed the two of them iced the puck the most. However, they did end the game at +1. How? Not sure. The forwards? Like last year, we have one established line. Juneau, Dackell, and Bulis. I wouldn't consider breaking them up right now as they are the only stable trio we have at this time. If Bulis moves up later in the year then Kilger has more than adequately filled in with Dacks and Joé. Heck, McKay would probably do well. As for the remainder of our forwards, other than not being able to say enough about Koivu, They just don't seem to be a confident buch. They can play good team defense, but we just don't have the finishers, playmakers, the size, yadda, yadda, yadda ... Last night some of them looked OK, but generally speaking ..... Don't get me wrong PCorp, I haven't given up on them yet, buddy. I still think they are going to be a playoff team. I just hope it doesn't take too much longer for them to hit stride. Cheers.
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Post by Patty Roy on Oct 23, 2002 20:36:43 GMT -5
wasn't it LeClair who played center at the time? LeClair played mostly LW that year. The top 2 lines were like this... John LeClair-Kirk Muller-Brian Bellows Vincent Damphousse-Stephan Lebeau-Mike Keane It was Tremblay who converted Damphousse to a C. I believe it was the year that Vinny had something like 150 PIM. I believe Tremblay got that idea from his radio buddy Michel Bergeron who for years was saying that Damphousse should be a C.
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Post by MPLABBE on Oct 23, 2002 20:50:50 GMT -5
LeClair played mostly LW that year. The top 2 lines were like this... John LeClair-Kirk Muller-Brian Bellows Vincent Damphousse-Stephan Lebeau-Mike Keane It was Tremblay who converted Damphousse to a C. I believe it was the year that Vinny had something like 150 PIM. I believe Tremblay got that idea from his radio buddy Michel Bergeron who for years was saying that Damphousse should be a C. How did we win the cup with those 2 lines? ;D I thought Lebeau centered the unit with Dipietro and Dionne on it? no?
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Post by seventeen on Oct 23, 2002 21:02:38 GMT -5
I don't think we had(and have) the assests to get him so it's basically a moot point.. I dunno, Marc. We had your first born, my chicken farm and HA's hay wagon. That was a good start.
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Post by Patty Roy on Oct 23, 2002 21:04:02 GMT -5
How did we win the cup with those 2 lines? ;D I thought Lebeau centered the unit with Dipietro and Dionne on it? no? Well 4 of our top 6 forwards did score 30+ goals and 80 or more points that season...but whose kidding who, #33 was the main reason we won the cup that year. My memory on the playoff run is a bit fuzzy, but for most of the regular season and a good part of the playoffs, those were the top 2 lines. Our 3rd and 4th lines looked something like this... Gilbert Dionne-Paul DiPietro-Gary Leeman Benoit Brunet-Guy Carbonneau-Denis Savard Ed Ronan (who was directly responsible for one of Carbo's OT goals) was also in the mix...
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Post by MPLABBE on Oct 23, 2002 21:09:22 GMT -5
Yeah all Patrick and a good young defence
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Post by HFTO on Oct 23, 2002 21:20:40 GMT -5
Good breakdown where's Vinny Lecavalier when we need him! HFTO
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Post by PTH on Oct 23, 2002 23:00:55 GMT -5
Well 4 of our top 6 forwards did score 30+ goals and 80 or more points that season...but whose kidding who, #33 was the main reason we won the cup that year. My memory on the playoff run is a bit fuzzy, but for most of the regular season and a good part of the playoffs, those were the top 2 lines. Our 3rd and 4th lines looked something like this... Gilbert Dionne-Paul DiPietro-Gary Leeman Benoit Brunet-Guy Carbonneau-Denis Savard Ed Ronan (who was directly responsible for one of Carbo's OT goals) was also in the mix... Pretty much fits with my memory.... I think Ronan got Savard's spot as the playoffs went on. I know for sure that Ronan played in game 1 against the kings, I remember him scoring a flukey goal.
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Post by Psycorp on Oct 24, 2002 1:42:12 GMT -5
Don't forget we had an excellent defense Very good at puck transition.
Schneider, Desjardins, Daigneault, etc..
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Post by Boston_Habs on Oct 24, 2002 8:29:58 GMT -5
Good topic. Strength up the middle (in any sport) is very important, and it's especially important given MTL's particular weakness at C after Koivu.
What to do? We clearly don't have anything in the system, and don't get started on Ribs - what I'm talking about is a big, strong, 2-way player in the mold of Bobby Holik or even Brian Rolston. UFA signing are tough, so that leaves the trade route.
I think it's very clear, to me anyway, that we are going to have to cash in on some of our depth on D to acquire the big, strapping C we need. Having Markov, Hainsey, and Komisarek is a luxury we can't afford - at least one of them, along with Garon, is going to have to go.
We can't delude ourselves into thinking that dealing Hackett, Audette, and Petrov is going to get us anything in return. Teams want good, young, cheap talent with lots of upside.
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Post by MPLABBE on Oct 24, 2002 9:34:23 GMT -5
Don't forget we had an excellent defense Very good at puck transition. Schneider, Desjardins, Daigneault, etc.. How could you forgot Breezy... Plus Sean Hill and Mario Roberge Kevin Haller as well...
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Post by PTH on Oct 24, 2002 12:06:30 GMT -5
How could you forgot Breezy... Plus Sean Hill and Mario Roberge Kevin Haller as well... Roberge was a winger. Not even sure he was still around at that point. The other D were Donald Dufresne and Lyle Odelein. Scheider-Odelein, Desjardins-Daigneault, Brisebois-Haller were the pairings, as I recall.
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Post by MPLABBE on Oct 24, 2002 15:02:48 GMT -5
Odelein how could we forget him...
You are right about Roberge...Donald Dufresne was the guy I was talking about!
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Post by PTH on Oct 24, 2002 15:45:55 GMT -5
Odelein how could we forget him... You are right about Roberge...Donald Dufresne was the guy I was talking about! You talked about Roberge, Marc. Maybe you were thinking about Dufresne, but you talked about Roberge !
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Post by MPLABBE on Oct 24, 2002 16:14:40 GMT -5
You talked about Roberge, Marc. Maybe you were thinking about Dufresne, but you talked about Roberge ! Right...I should have said Dufresne was the guy I was thinking about not talking.
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Post by Psycorp on Oct 27, 2002 23:12:56 GMT -5
You know what guys, i just realised today that Mikko Koivu would have been the perfect answer to this problem Big, skilled center perfect to fit on a second line and back up his older brother ;D Problem is: I like Komisarek better, he was the most pressing need...i wish we could have had both
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Post by PTH on Oct 28, 2002 0:38:44 GMT -5
You know what guys, i just realised today that Mikko Koivu would have been the perfect answer to this problem Big, skilled center perfect to fit on a second line and back up his older brother ;D Problem is: I like Komisarek better, he was the most pressing need...i wish we could have had both I wanted to draft Mikko back in the day..... but having the kid brother around can make life very complicated, too. Contract negotiations affect 2 players, not 1. What happens if Saku is set to become a UFA ? Also, Mikko might never develop as well as he could. Having his big brother/idol around in the room would make him keep awfully quiet. All that being said, if we could get our hands on him I'd be thrilled.
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