Canadians hurl abuse at U.S. hockey peewees

[Cranky]

Some Canadians are turning out to be world class trash. Does this go along with the "right" to boo?

Pathetic, truly pathetic.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/
TPStory/LAC/20030402/UMASSN/TPNational/TopStories

(copy and paste)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

By INGRID PERITZ
Wednesday, April 2, 2003 -

MONTREAL -- A peewee hockey tournament in Montreal became a trip into hostile territory for a busload of Americans who say they encountered such fierce anti-Americanism that they will think twice before returning.

During a four-day visit, boys travelling with their Massachusetts hockey team witnessed the burning of the Stars and Stripes and the booing of the U.S. national anthem. When travelling in their bus emblazoned with a red-white-and-blue "Coach USA" logo, they saw people on the street who extended their middle fingers or made other angry gestures.

On the ice, the Canadian players told their visiting counterparts that "the U.S. sucks" and dispensed other anti-American insults, the Americans said.

"It was a shock to go to a tournament and have kids saying this to us. These are our friends that are doing this," Brockton Boxers coach Ernest Nadeau said.

"We didn't expect Canadian players -- especially young boys -- would take things to that extreme," he said in an interview.

The 11- and 12-year-old boys from Brockton, 30 kilometres south of Boston, had been looking forward to the hockey tournament in Montreal. But parents who accompanied them said they were unprepared for the depth of anti-American sentiment over the U.S.-led war against Iraq.

One parent, Bill Carpenter, was so upset he cancelled his family's vacation to Quebec this summer.

"We were very offended by the whole thing," said Mr. Carpenter, who accompanied two sons on the trip.

"I understand the opposition to the war. But we were made to feel unwelcome just about anywhere we went.

"Montreal is a 5½-hour drive for us. It's not like we were travelling to Syria or France or Germany," he said. "As Americans, we felt in the past that Canada was our closest ally and friend. No one told us we were heading into unfriendly territory."

The trip soured soon after the Americans rolled into Montreal on March 20.

Their bus entered downtown Montreal just as hundreds of college and university students were marching through the streets in an antiwar demonstration. Police cruisers spotted the U.S. bus and escorted it to its hotel on Sherbrooke Street as a safety precaution. A police officer urged the visitors to remain in the bus until the protest passed.

The children watched as several demonstrators made obscene gestures toward the bus. A U.S. flag was dragged through the street.

"We felt horrible," Mr. Nadeau said. "How would you feel if the Canadian flag was dragged down the streets in the U.S.A.? This is a country that's supposed to be our ally."

That night, about a dozen families went to the Montreal Canadiens-New York Islanders game at the Montreal Bell Centre, a much-anticipated visit planned months in advance. In a gesture later condemned, the U.S. national anthem was widely booed by the crowd, leaving the visiting American children perplexed.

"The kids were just questioning, 'Why are they doing this?' " said David Cruise, who was there with his 12-year-old son. "It's hard for them to realize we weren't in America any more; we were in a different country.

"I said, 'They're booing our national anthem because they don't like us.' "

Mr. Cruise felt so uncomfortable that he left with his son after the first period. "Whether you're for or against the war, we have guys over there dying," Mr. Cruise said. "The next time, we'll stay in the States. I'm not going back there again."

The visitors say anti-American comments continued when the young players faced off against the Beverly Bandits, a team from Beverly, Ont. U.S. players say the Canadians hurled insults during face-offs and at other times.

"They told us we sucked, gave us the finger and said 'Down with the U.S.A.' or 'The U.S.A. sucks," Mr. Nadeau said. At one point, a Canadian player made a disparaging remark about the United States "and the referee turned around and said, 'I agree with you.' "What stunned us was that the referee, who is supposed to be unbiased, is agreeing with the boys on the ice."

His players "wanted to retaliate" against the Canadians, but Mr. Nadeau said he urged them "not to do anything foolish."

Denis Desrochers, president of the minor hockey team in Beverly, west of Hamilton, said in an interview that he had heard nothing about the anti-American slurs.

"It boggles my mind that the kids would say that. They don't even talk about it," he said. "I wouldn't tolerate it. Whether you're American or Canadian, you're not allowed to swear at any kids." On Saturday, Mr. Carpenter went for a walk downtown with his two children as another antiwar demonstration unfolded in Montreal -- one of several that drew huge crowds in a province staunchly opposed to the war.

Mr. Carpenter came across a knot of demonstrators surrounding a protester who, with an Iraqi flag and a U.S. flag, had climbed atop a traffic light.

The crowd cheered when the man waved the Iraqi flag, and booed the U.S. flag, Mr. Carpenter said. Then the protester doused the U.S. flag in kerosene.

"It went up in a puff of smoke and flames, and the crowd went wild. They were all cheering," said Mr. Carpenter, whose 24-year-old son, a U.S. Marine, was sent to retrieve bodies of Americans killed in the 2001 terrorist bombing of USS Cole in Yemen.

Mr. Carpenter tried to explain the anti-American displays to his children. "I said to my kids, 'These folks disagree with our government, not you personally.' "

As they crossed the border into the United States, cheers went up in the bus. "We were very, very happy to get back home," Mr. Nadeau said.

[spozzy]

That's disgusting. The pride I have in being a native Montrealer is quickly eroding...

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Gosh, it sounds like the war is very unpopular in Québec.

I hear that most of the population there is descended from people who came over from *France*. Maybe they just didn't get all those hilarious jokes and vicious diatribes made in the American media.

Funny how what goes around comes around.

[BadCompany]

mr said:

Gosh, it sounds like the war is very unpopular in Québec.

I hear that most of the population there is descended from people who came over from *France*. Maybe they just didn't get all those hilarious jokes and vicious diatribes made in the American media.

Funny how what goes around comes around.

Well, I am sure that the Don Cherry crowd will be very quick to jump on the Montreal-therefor-French angle of all of this, but there are some VERY important things to point out here;

One, the protest the kids drove through, where their bus was gestured at, was organized by Concordia University. Concordia of course, is an English university.

Two, there is no way of verifying the nationality of those who booed the anthem. Given the regular turnout at the Molson Centre, in all likelihood a good 20-40% were English.

Three, the opposing hockey team those American kids faced off against, who taunted them with "USA sucks" comments, was from ONTARIO, as pointed out in the article.

Four, the referee, was at least bilingual, perhaps an anglophone.

What happened to those kids was shameful, despicable and embarrassing to all Canadians. But to blame it on French Canadians, as many will undoubtedly do, is WRONG, and unfair.

[Cranky]

I said Canadians and Spozzy said Montrealers but no one said anything about French Canadians.

So, Mr. Bozo are YOU accusing French Canadians for this pathetic act and then justifying it?

Interesting.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

HabsAddict said:

I said Canadians and Spozzy said Montrealers but no one said anything about French Canadians.

So, Mr. Bozo are YOU accusing French Canadians for this pathetic act and then justifying it?

Interesting.

I accuse no-one. I am, however, suggesting that there may well be a broader and deeper anti-American backlash in Québec due to the rather well-publicized anti-French stance presented in the American mass media recently vis-à-vis France's reluctance to side with the US.

This incident is just more proof that the war is not a good thing.

[Cranky]

mr said:

I accuse no-one. I am, however, suggesting that there may well be a broader and deeper anti-American backlash in Québec due to the rather well-publicized anti-French stance presented in the American mass media recently vis-à-vis France's reluctance to side with the US.

This incident is just more proof that the war is not a good thing.

I am certain that the Americans deeply fear an anti-American backlash in Quebec. The damage that Quebec can inflict on the US economy is incalculable, in fact, the White House is immediately taking drastic measures to save the US economy by converting to two ply toilet paper instead of the economically wasteful three ply in the White House bathrooms.

Further, it has been revealed that the US is a massively building up of forces on the Quebec border in case of an invasion. They brought up Spot the Biting Beagle.

Yes, war is not a good thing, anti-American Quebec asses are at risk.

[Habsasin]

This kind of behavior is absolutely ridiculous. Why would anyone want to voice their political discontent with American foreign policy towards 11 and 12 year old kids??? I'm as anti war as the next guy, but to behave in this manner is absolutely absurd. I find the attitude of these people to be quite puzzling.

I understand that French Canadians may harbor ill feelings toward American "French bashing", and being a French Canadian myself I can say that I am offended at this as well, but I usually notch this up as your run-of- the-mill American ignorance. One of the things that I would like to believe sets us apart from the Americans, is our acceptance of other cultures and the level of tolerance towards varying opinions that come with these different backgrounds. Sadly, I must say that this type of behavior proves otherwise.

Ignorance is alive and well in Canada, just as it south of the border. It would be nice to see these people, that are so adamantly anti-war (or anti-American), take the "High Road" and just let these kids play hockey. If anything they should be booing the Canadian national anthem since our leaders have once again embarrassed us by taking an anti-war stance, and yet sending some 2000 troops to the gulf and in Iraq to help fight "terrorism".

[Yossarian]

Habsasin said:

This kind of behavior is absolutely ridiculous. Why would anyone want to voice their political discontent with American foreign policy towards 11 and 12 year old kids??? I'm as anti war as the next guy, but to behave in this manner is absolutely absurd. I find the attitude of these people to be quite puzzling.

I understand that French Canadians may harbor ill feelings toward American "French bashing", and being a French Canadian myself I can say that I am offended at this as well, but I usually notch this up as your run-of- the-mill American ignorance. One of the things that I would like to believe sets us apart from the Americans, is our acceptance of other cultures and the level of tolerance towards varying opinions that come with these different backgrounds. Sadly, I must say that this type of behavior proves otherwise.

Ignorance is alive and well in Canada, just as it south of the border. It would be nice to see these people, that are so adamantly anti-war (or anti-American), take the "High Road" and just let these kids play hockey. If anything they should be booing the Canadian national anthem since our leaders have once again embarrassed us by taking an anti-war stance, and yet sending some 2000 troops to the gulf and in Iraq to help fight "terrorism".

I am in total agreement. It is frightening how insular people become in times like this. The abuse towards these kids is unjustifiable. Whats scarier is these people that hurl the abuse, like the ones who boo an anthem at a bloody hockey game, think that they are making such a bold, profound political statement. I'm afraid that the only statement they make is that they their heads are so far up their anuses, the stench is making them delerious. I guess with so much contempt for America, so many Canadian/Quebecer snowbirds will be selling their winter homes in La Floride since there is no way any one of the 3 hundred million Americans might have a different opinion towards their government's foreign policy, and because of it, each and every one of them should be subject to verbal, physical abuse and intimidation, to the point where they no longer feel welcome in a country that has always been culturally and economically entertwined with their own. Job well done!!!

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Unfortunately it's all about perceptions.

I used to work for an organization, the Canadian Forces (CF), where if one person did something wrong it was often misinterpreted as a reflection on the whole. It didn't matter whether or the CF had a lower percentage of problems-per-person than the general public did nationwide. And make no mistake, guys, those (mis) perceptions are nurtured by the media.

For instance, if someone went to MacLean's magazine and said they were raped, well then, all soldiers, sailors and/or airmen that had a handle, were/are rapists. If one soldier didn't know how to properly manage his money and blew it on a Harley-Davidson motorcycle, a new car, motorhome, what-have-you, and ended up feeding his family out of a food bank, then the CF is not properly looking after people; it's entirely the CF's fault that this soldier's family is starving.

How does this fit in? Well, these are perceptions based solely on what the editor of a publication, or newspaper, wants you to read and believe. Heck, governments are either elected or defeated, by the public, based on the media-fed perceptions they are given.

This situation is probably nothing more than a few jerks who had nothing better to do with their time than to show up and harass a minor hockey team. However, they are probably of the same ilk than those south of the border who have recently refused Canadian-plated cars gasoline at the pumps. They are probably the same ilk as those who have posted on their American restaurant establishment, "... no shoes, no shirts, no Canadians ..."

I find it contemptible that others would use a minor hockey team to champion their platform. However, while there may be the odd altruistic protester among them, there are probably very few. Just on that premise, I also find it contemptable that this whole BS-based scenario is probably the efforts of a few jerks whose sole purpose is to make the papers; perceptions be darned.

I'm hoping BC is wrong with his Don Cherry, French generalization beliefs, mainly because of this whole perception basis. But, like many of you already know, there will be the bandwagon jumpers that will no doubt use this to champion their beliefs, while using Don Cherry-the-French-generalist, as a security blanket.

So, who are the losers in this whole sorry state? Not just the American kids, but the Canadian kids who often travel south for tournaments in search of decent competition. And all because of a few jerks.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

It is unfortunate that people tend to follow generalizations because they are easier to assume and require the least thought and effort. But that's life. Give me convenience or give me death.

While the more intelligent of those opposed to the war can make the distinction between a country's population and its government, most people can't be bothered. To them Joe Yank represents his government, and is therefore seen as an extension of that government (whether in fact he agrees with his own government or not). Guilty until proven innocent.

There are/will be a lot of places throughout the world, aside from Québec, where Americans were either welcomed or at least tolerated which will not be comfortable environments any more. Another of the consequences of this war.

[Cranky]

The funny part of it all is that the "Ugly American" is all over the world and there are no problems other then a few pockets.

When I was 12, I use to hear my Uncle George the Cafe Communist rail against America at every opportunity while sipping his coffee and bemoaning the fact that he did not go to America like his brothers did in order to be rich like them.

~~~~~~~~~

Young HA: "But Uncle, you said that America sucks the blood of the workers"

Uncle George: "It's blood money. America has it lying in the streets for it's people to use it and conquer the world."

Young HA (confused): "So they are NOT sucking the blood of it's workers because they find it on the streets?"

Uncle George: "Shut up young one, you don't understand!"

Young HA: "So you want to go to America because you will find money on the streets?"

Uncle George: "Yes, those people are evil with evil ways"

Young HA: "But Uncle, why do you need to have blood money"

Uncle George (the hunter): "I need a new shotgun and a hunting dog".

Young HA (the little verbal terrorist): "So you want to go to America in order to find blood money on the streets and then come back and buy a new shot gun and a dog for your enjoyment? Would that not make you an American?"

Uncle George (angry): "Shut up young one, you don't understand!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have learned over the years that the Ugly American rants take all kinds of forms and questionable logic but there is no end to them. Could it be envy? Could it be that some people want to put down the "Ugly American" in order to show some non existent “moral superiority”? Rail against them but covet their money. Spit in their eye but live comfortably off their trade.

There is no end to hypocrisy.

[GMan77]

HabsAddict said:

I have learned over the years that the Ugly American rants take all kinds of forms and questionable logic but there is no end to them. Could it be envy? Could it be that some people want to put down the "Ugly American" in order to show some non existent “moral superiority”? Rail against them but covet their money. Spit in their eye but live comfortably off their trade.

There is no end to hypocrisy.

Oh please... there's enough hypocrisy to go around.

I'd rather be a Canadian hypocrit who supports respecting international law than a US hypocrit who doesn't mind killing thousands of innocents so they can pursue their own interests.

And about those kids who were called names... yeah sure it was wrong.

But I played hockey tournaments too when I was a kid and when we played tournaments in the rest of Canada & the US we were called frogs on & off the ice, not to mention other insults... the refs would laugh at my coach because they couldn't understand what he was saying... and nobody there ever felt bad about it for a second.
And remember we (or our government) hadn't done ANYTHING to spark these ugly attacks.

In this case there is clearly a CONTEXT to what happened, they drove right into a freakin' protest with a bus that said USA in large print on it's side... very unfortunate but the outcome is no surprise.
The entire WORLD including many US cities were at the height of their anti-war momentum... sure taking it to the kids is wrong regardless but there a context AND Montreal & Canadians that heard of this were all appauled at what happened and are apologetic now.

No one in English Canada or the US ever felt bad for insulting Montreal kids... believe me, and it didn't happen just once but throughout my hockey career.

I also heard the coach of this US team on team 990... at some point in the interview he said "in our hour of need we found out who our friends are"... which really got my blood boiling.

At 9/11 hundreds of Canadian firemen drove down to NY to help, planes were diverted to Canada and the stranded Americans said they could not believe how well they were taken care of by Canadians. When they attacked the terrorists in Afghanistan we were there beside them.
THOSE were times where the US was "in their hour of need" and we were there for them.

Now they go outside the confines of the UN to attack another country, killing thousands of innocent and defenseless Iraqis in the process, and he has the gaul to say this is the USA's hour of need?!?!
Gimme a break... talk about a distorted view of the world.

The only people in need at this time is the poor Iraqi population, and those are precisely the people Canada has already pledged to help as soon as the war ends... so as we have always done we do NOTHING BUT help all people in their TRUE hour of need.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Let the the public cheers of of appreciation drown out the public expressions of disapproval. Let the pro-war rallies dwarf in numbers of participants those of anti-war demonstrators.

Let Americans realize that the consequences of their government's actions will affect them, for better or for worse, as ordinary citizens when they travel abroad. Kansas is a very small patch on this globe.

If there had been no unilateral action taken by the current US administration viz Iraq, none of the above would have to be mentioned. International political actions do not occur in a vacuum.

[Cranky]

It's raining hypocrisy left right and center.

Poor Iraqi citizens, killed by the Ugly American. Meanwhile, when they are gassed and murdered by Saddam and his thugs it's just a bad hair day. When woman are beheaded it's just a Bad Hair Day Uday going out for a stroll. When people get shot in the back if they leave the city, it’s just another day in the hypocrites world.

Where were all of you people when all of this was happening? Where? What did you do about it? Why where you not there to defend the Iraqi people? Or did it not matter because you really don't care about the Iraqi people and just hate that Ugly American but love his dollar? You do love his dollar, right? Isn’t that the definition of hypocrisy?

The easy chair hypocrites and the Axis of Appeasement respect international law whenever it suits then from the very comfort of their easy chairs. But why not? They always have the 'right" to do so. Then again, they dismiss all the people who died to give them that "right". Do I need to bring up pictures of rows of cemeteries of Canadian and American soldiers. Do I?

You know what I like the most about the Axis of Appeasement? It’s when their arguments defeat their own "position".

International political actions do not occur in a vacuum.

Of course not, just ask the French and TotalElfFn. Do you want me to waste time and dig up the facts yet again? How about France declaring that they will veto ANY resolution not to their liking?

they go outside the confines of the UN to attack another country, killing thousands of innocent and defenseless Iraqis in the process.

“Doing the arithmetic is an imprecise venture. The largest number of deaths attributable to Mr. Hussein's regime resulted from the war between Iraq and Iran between 1980 and 1988, which was launched by Mr. Hussein. Iraq says its own toll was 500,000, and Iran's reckoning ranges upward of 300,000. Then there are the casualties in the wake of Iraq's 1990 occupation of Kuwait. Iraq's official toll from American bombing in that war is 100,000 — surely a gross exaggeration — but nobody contests that thousands of Iraqi soldiers and civilians were killed in the American campaign to oust Mr. Hussein's forces from Kuwait. In addition, 1,000 Kuwaitis died during the fighting and occupation in their country.

Casualties from Iraq's gulag are harder to estimate. Accounts collected by Western human rights groups from Iraqi émigrés and defectors have suggested that the number of those who have "disappeared" into the hands of the secret police, never to be heard from again, could be 200,000. As long as Mr. Hussein remains in power, figures like these will be uncheckable, but the huge toll is palpable nonetheless.”

Face it, no one wants Saddam the Butcher and trying to make a case to defend inaction makes them no different from the delusional Appeasement forces in the mid 30's. Or was Hitler just another nice guy that was misunderstood?

In the end of the day, sit back and watch events unfold, live and in color. Change is happening, the Ugly Americans are giving their lives for others freedom, with or without the irrelevant approval of the Appeasers.



www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=5773

[GMan77]

HabsAddict said:

It's raining hypocrisy left right and center.

Poor Iraqi citizens, killed by the Ugly American. Meanwhile, when they are gassed and murdered by Saddam and his thugs it's just a bad hair day. When woman are beheaded it's just a Bad Hair Day Uday going out for a stroll. When people get shot in the back if they leave the city, it’s just another day in the hypocrites world.

Where were all of you people when all of this was happening? Where?

The better question is where was the US??

The answer is a few hundred miles from Baghdad, and they turned back & went home... and actually stood by & watched while those poor civilians were being slaughtered because they had listened to the US's request for them to rebel.

Everyone very well knows the US isn't doing it now because they woke up one morning and were suddenly so concerned for the Iraqi population, they couldn't care less... as they proved the last time they were there.
The whole world knows they're only doing this for their own benefit (oil, geo-political, etc) and that's why the majority of the world is against it. (the others were paid off)

Btw I'm not any more supportive of France's stance that refused to use military action in any fashion... that was France playing it's own political cards more than concern for the Iraqi people.

Like I said EVERYONE in this is guilty of hypocrisy, nobody in this is acting solely for the good of the Iraqi people.

And it's not because we profit from our trade with the US that we have to agree with everything they do... the mere suggestion of that is ludicrous.
If you feel so strongly about how the US is "saving" world from it's dictators, you might want to consider moving there and enlisting.. or better yet enlisting your children.
When your kid returns in a pine box just so your new US government could install a puppet goverment is some faraway land.. then come back and tell me how you feel.

[Cranky]

Blame the Ugly American. Isn't that they way? Sit back in an easy chair and blame the Ugly American. All that is missing are the worry beads and the music.

All the yelping of Appeasement means nothing. It really doesn't. All I see is countries and people who back up their convictions with action and all I read is confused justification for Appeasement or endless rants about the Ugly American did not do what their vision of the world dictates. Did the Appeasers or their countires do something about it? Nope but let's not have that stand in the way of a hollow rant. Nope.

Saddam and his butchers are going down and the Americans are doing the job while Canadians complain about it.

Turn your TV on and watch man who talk the talk and walk the walk.

[spozzy]

Forget about it HA. This guy is more willing to give an evil dictator the benefit of the doubt than the US. It's no use arguing with a them--someone who'll never fight for freedom or the protection of others.

[Cranky]

spozzy said:

Forget about it HA. This guy is more willing to give an evil dictator the benefit of the doubt than the US. It's no use arguing with them--someone who'll never fight for freedom or the protection of others.

Heck, when I put on the TV, I see real man who put their lives on the line to back their convictions. All else means nothing.

You know what is funny? All this anti Amrican rants really mean nothing. It's like the guy who jumps out of an airlplane and flaps his arms. In the end, the ground will not move out of the way no matter how much he curses and yells at it.

Meanwhile, I will go back to my TV and watch some hideous clown named Saddam make a fool of himself and send his people to their deaths in order to protect himself and his butchers while Ugly American soldiers do the right thing.

[GMan77]

Since it's obvious this has become a comedy thread... I might as well try to contribute as well, enjoy ;D:

Courtesy of Rick Mercer from This Hour Has 22 Minutes, CBC Television:
On behalf of Canadians everywhere I'd like to offer an apology to the United
States of America. We haven't been getting along very well recently and for
that, I am truly sorry.
I'm sorry we called George Bush a moron.
He is a moron but, it wasn't nice of us to point it out. If it's any
consolation, the fact that he's a moron shouldn't reflect poorly on the people
of America. After all it's not like you actually elected him.
I'm sorry about our softwood lumber. Just because we have more trees than you
doesn't give us the right to sell you lumber that's cheaper and better than your
own.
I'm sorry we beat you in Olympic hockey. In our defense I guess our excuse would
be that our team was much, much, much, much better than yours.
I'm sorry we burnt down your white house during the war of 1812. I notice you've
rebuilt it! It's very nice.
I'm sorry about your beer. I know we had nothing to do with your beer but, we
feel your pain.
I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean, when you're going up against a
crazed dictator, you wanna have your friends by your side. I realize it took
more than two years before you guys pitched in against Hitler, but that was
different. Everyone knew he had weapons.
And finally on behalf of all Canadians, I'm sorry that we're constantly
apologizing for things in a passive-aggressive way, which is really a > thinly
veiled criticism. I sincerely hope that you're not upset over this. We've seen
what you do to countries you get upset with.

[GMan77]

HabsAddict said:

Meanwhile, I will go back to my TV and watch some hideous clown named Saddam make a fool of himself and send his people to their deaths in order to protect himself and his butchers while Ugly American man with do the right thing.

Instead of making clumsy comparisons between Iraq's leader and the US soldiers... why not try comparing leadership on both sides. Radical concept isn't it?

So Bush is stretching his legs out at Camp David while his way-ward bombs land sometimes on military targets, sometimes on civilians... while his army's helicopters keep crashing by themselves killing thei occupants... while their friendly fire incidents add to the number of casualties.

So Bush plays golf while people on both sides die, all so Bush can:

a) advance his geo-political plan
b) grab control of Iraq's oil
c) distracts his US citizens from the awful state of the economy
....

Yup... courage like that is hard to find.

P.S. Didn't I read a report that only ONE family member among the hundreds involved in the US government is actually in the military in Iraq?
Nah, let "the people" die for "the cause" while we make our tee-off time.

Saddam is the scum of the earth, duh, but Bush & co ain't far behind on the totem poll.
They just happen to do their "dirty" deeds off camera, in a "classified" kind of way.

[Cranky]

G said:

Instead of making clumsy comparisons between Iraq's leader and the US soldiers... why not try comparing leadership on both sides. Radical concept isn't it?

So Bush is stretching his legs out at Camp David while his way-ward bombs land sometimes on military targets, sometimes on civilians... while his army's helicopters keep crashing by themselves killing thei occupants... while their friendly fire incidents add to the number of casualties.

So Bush plays golf while people on both sides die, all so Bush can:

a) advance his geo-political plan
b) grab control of Iraq's oil
c) distracts his US citizens from the awful state of the economy
....

Yup... courage like that is hard to find.

P.S. Didn't I read a report that only ONE family member among the hundreds involved in the US government is actually in the military in Iraq?
Nah, let "the people" die for "the cause" while we make our tee-off time.

Saddam is the scum of the earth, duh, but Bush & co ain't far behind on the totem poll.
They just happen to do their "dirty" deeds off camera, in a "classified" kind of way.

Why would I want to do that? I don't care about Bush and in fact I have made disparaging remarks about him elsewhere.

I will tell you one thing. I don’t like war but I hate Saddam and butchers like Saddam even more.

Now, your turn. Answer me this as clearly as you can.

Who do you want to win and why?

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

For those who have been sleeping, or too busy flexing their biceps at each other at the back of the class:

The US helps entrench an oppressive regime and flaunts international conventions to help it develop WMD. A perfect way to set up a fall guy.

Give me convenience and give them death: that's the foreign policy vis-à-vis Iraq that's brought the US administration to Baghdad.

What a bunch of heroes! Not.

***
Iraqgate: Saddam Hussein, U.S. Policy and the Prelude to the Persian Gulf War, 1980-1994

Among the relevant issues addressed are the decision taken by the Reagan administration to improve political and economic relations with Iraq, and the rationale for pursuing this decision, which became a major tenet of U.S. foreign policy toward the Persian Gulf Region. The U.S. remained firmly committed to this policy, despite Iraq’s use of chemical weapons against Iranian forces during the Iran-Iraq war and against it s own Kurdish population, and despite persistent reports of Iraq’s efforts to develop nonconventional weapons. Iraq’s use of chemical warfare and its weapons programs, pursued with technology from the West, are also among the collection’s major subjects.

- nsarchive.chadwyck.com/igintro.htm

[MC Habber]

This is the quote that stood out for me in that article: "It's hard for them to realize we weren't in America any more; we were in a different country."

[Disgruntled70sHab]

HabsAddict said:

It's raining hypocrisy left right and center.

Poor Iraqi citizens, killed by the Ugly American. Meanwhile, when they are gassed and murdered by Saddam and his thugs it's just a bad hair day. When woman are beheaded it's just a Bad Hair Day Uday going out for a stroll. When people get shot in the back if they leave the city, it’s just another day in the hypocrites world.

Bad-hair-day-Uday pretty well sums up the "absolute-power-corrupts-absolutely" theory. Moreover, as sheep go generally speaking that is, "if-Uday-is-the-example-of-what-men-should-be-then-what-the-heck-have-I-been-missing" is the standard for example, then what kind of standard is that?

Where were all of you people when all of this was happening? Where? What did you do about it? Why where you not there to defend the Iraqi people?

They were actually waiting for the UN to move on one of it's many "disarming Iraq" resolutions. I'm honestly too lazy to find out just how many of these resolutions were actually given to Iraq, but absolutely none were enforced. The UN Security Council has failed miserably in following up on any of these resolutions. France's confilct of interest due to an abundance of trade with Iraq must have played an important role.

However, even though the USA was warned about the genocide in Rwanda well in advance, they chose, as many countries did as well, to ignore the warning signs. Why? Because of the opinions of a former Canadian General, whose initials are Maurice Baril. He basically told the UN Security Council that the UN Commander, MGen Romeo Delaire, was an inexperienced field commander, whose reporting of pending genocide was merely a ploy to divert attention to himself and his ambitious aspirations. BUNK!

Oh, and Maurice Baril has yet to be called to the carpet for his part in the Rwandan genocide. I guess you don't become CDS without knowing how to sidestep a few landmines.

Do I need to bring up pictures of rows of cemeteries of Canadian and American soldiers. Do I?

How many Belgians ran when things went sour in Rwanda? Ten of their peacekeepers were mercilessly and systematically butchered by the Hutu. Yet, it was their government who pushed for a UN mission in the former Belgian-Congo, and it was them again who ran for cover when the mission went sour. Moreover, they also found it convenient to blame a Canadian, Romeo Delaire, for this fiasco rather than face up to the failure.

Want more? When they couldn't bring down Delaire, they went after their own Colonel and brought him up on charges for the slaughter of their soldiers. It was only after Delaire flew over to Belgium to testify on behalf of the officer that the officer got off.

However, there are tens-of-thousands of Canadians buried in Belguim and Holland, who participated in the liberation of these countries. Countless American soldiers are also buried there as well. In fact, if it weren't for the American participation in WW II, the war quite possibly may not have been won at all. Just don't mention that to the Russians.

Where is the Eurpoean community now?

Casualties from Iraq's gulag are harder to estimate. Accounts collected by Western human rights groups from Iraqi émigrés and defectors have suggested that the number of those who have "disappeared" into the hands of the secret police, never to be heard from again, could be 200,000. As long as Mr. Hussein remains in power, figures like these will be uncheckable, but the huge toll is palpable nonetheless.”

What else can one say. See Rwanda.

The overall problem isn't the USA/Britain/me-too-type countries, it's the UN's inability to follow up when it has to.

However, there are other problems the USA/Britain/et al will have to deal with in the very near future. They may have a plan, but if it's preceived as a US-led plan, that plan will be under attack by anti-US finatics almost immediately.

If the UN has any gonads whatsoever they'll have to seize the initiative, and, like yesterday. However consistency isn't their strong suite and it seems totally unlikely yet again.

Cheers.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

MC said:

This is the quote that stood out for me in that article: "It's hard for them to realize we weren't in America any more; we were in a different country."

But, like, isn't it all America anyway, dude. If it isn't, then it should be, right? I mean it's our job to make the world American. It's the way God wants it. Or at least my Dad's company does. I'm just going about my Father's business, is all. ;D

[spozzy]

"It's hard for them to realize we weren't in America any more; we were in a different country."

Well, now those kids know...

Up here it's the land of the free-loaders and home of the cowards.

[Cranky]

Disgruntled70sHab said:

Bad-hair-day-Uday pretty well sums up the "absolute-power-corrupts-absolutely" theory. Moreover, as sheep go generally speaking that is, "if-Uday-is-the-example-of-what-men-should-be-then-what-the-heck-have-I-been-missing" is the standard for example, then what kind of standard is that?


They were actually waiting for the UN to move on one of it's many "disarming Iraq" resolutions. I'm honestly too lazy to find out just how many of these resolutions were actually given to Iraq, but absolutely none were enforced. The UN Security Council has failed miserably in following up on any of these resolutions. France's confilct of interest due to an abundance of trade with Iraq must have played an important role.

However, even though the USA was warned about the genocide in Rwanda well in advance, they chose, as many countries did as well, to ignore the warning signs. Why? Because of the opinions of a former Canadian General, whose initials are Maurice Baril. He basically told the UN Security Council that the UN Commander, MGen Romeo Delaire, was an inexperienced field commander, whose reporting of pending genocide was merely a ploy to divert attention to himself and his ambitious aspirations. BUNK!

Oh, and Maurice Baril has yet to be called to the carpet for his part in the Rwandan genocide. I guess you don't become CDS without knowing how to sidestep a few landmines.


How many Belgians ran when things went sour in Rwanda? Ten of their peacekeepers were mercilessly and systematically butchered by the Hutu. Yet, it was their government who pushed for a UN mission in the former Belgian-Congo, and it was them again who ran for cover when the mission went sour. Moreover, they also found it convenient to blame a Canadian, Romeo Delaire, for this fiasco rather than face up to the failure.

Want more? When they couldn't bring down Delaire, they went after their own Colonel and brought him up on charges for the slaughter of their soldiers. It was only after Delaire flew over to Belgium to testify on behalf of the officer that the officer got off.

However, there are tens-of-thousands of Canadians buried in Belguim and Holland, who participated in the liberation of these countries. Countless American soldiers are also buried there as well. In fact, if it weren't for the American participation in WW II, the war quite possibly may not have been won at all. Just don't mention that to the Russians.

Where is the Eurpoean community now?


What else can one say. See Rwanda.

The overall problem isn't the USA/Britain/me-too-type countries, it's the UN's inability to follow up when it has to.

However, there are other problems the USA/Britain/et al will have to deal with in the very near future. They may have a plan, but if it's preceived as a US-led plan, that plan will be under attack by anti-US finatics almost immediately.

If the UN has any gonads whatsoever they'll have to seize the initiative, and, like yesterday. However consistency isn't their strong suite and it seems totally unlikely yet again.

Cheers.

Well said Dis.

No UN resolution was ever going to be enforced. EVER. France gets 75% of the Iraqi oil and had plans to develop and get 5 times the volume in an increadably stupid oil deal that no one but Saddam would sign. Does it matter what it does to his people if it gives Saddam credibility? In fact, Russia and France were instrumental in rendering the impectors impotent in '98. The UN has become an instrument of complaint for every two bit dictator and tea cup goverment. As far as action is concerned? Which way does the wind and the favors blow?

What galls me is that people are ready to blame the Americans for everything and then some.

Isrealis want the US to distabilize every Arab country. If they blow it up, even better.

Palestinians want the Americans to tell Isreal to disappear even though their own Arab people do not want to have them in THEIR country.

Everybody wants the Americans to stand in harms way in every conflict but when they take action, they are blamed for being bullies. It's always "it's their fault". If they can't find fault, then they look for the dollar sign under every rock and reason.

Even when you beat down the Ugly American rants with facts in their selfless sacrifice in many conflicts, then you have the other side of the sword that they are at fault anyway for the conflict because they should of prevented that to begin with. America enters WW2 late because they are basically tired of Europe going to war every 30 years and then when they do enter, they lose umpteenth thousands and REBUILD Europe. Nope, it's their fault for not entering sooner and sacrificing more. Like who? France and Paris?

Dis, don’t you know it’s unfashionable to be pro-American? Don’t you know it’s in fashion to spit on them for any and all policies but scream bloody murder if they take actions to protect their economic interests. Soft wood lumber tariffs are appalling because they protect their interests and we DEMAND their markets and call them friends but spit on them and call them morons behind their backs.

I do business with many Americans and have many American friends. Doing business with people for a long time gives one a unique perspective on their trust and motivations. They have ample opportunity to steal from you, lie to you and make your life miserable without ANY repercussions and yet they choose not to. Why? Because of their nature and their values and their morals. That’s what defines people, not money. Money is just something that changes hands for products. Period.

Yes, I call them my friends with pride. I don’t like some of their policies but then again, they have different interest and a different global view. Fashionable or not, my house wore a yellow ribbon after 9/11 and I was proud of it. I now have a US flag on my window and I am proud of it. None of them will ever see what I have in my window but that is not the point. It's how I feel. One of my customers is going under because he is a bad businessman and he blames Bush for his ills. He may take $49,000 of MY receivables down with him but I will not flinch and call it my War contribution. I call ALL my American friends and offer words of pride, sympathy and encouragement. That’s what friends do for each other.

Many of us have taken a stand to stand with a friend. Sadly, too many Canadians just stand with an open hand.

[GMan77]

As for who I want to win the war and why?

Canada's official position, if you hadn't noticed, is that they would only support a war in sanctionned by the UN. Not that they against a war period.
Everyone knows Saddam is a cruel dictator.. nobody will cry when his regime comes to an end. The whole issue is WHY the US has chosen to attack NOW... and why only in Iraq when there are countless other countries in the hands of similar leadership.

Just as the US didn't mind the Afghanistan population was ruled by a terribly abusive leadership.. until the US got attacked themselves that is.
Then what did the US do?... they attacked with full force, did their best to eradicate all traces of Al Quaeda... and then pulled out so fast the entire country except the capital is now under the rule of warlords, and the US couln't care less what that means for the population.. their interests have been served, to hell with the people.

This "mission to liberate the people" is so phony it makes any sane person gag... it sure wasn't a priority a decade ago... now was it.

The wider implications of attacking without UN approval is why I cannot support this war. Years or decades down the road, at a time where the US is no longer the ONLY military power in the world... what the US did was set a precedent for other countries (China, India, Russia, etc) to attack countries at their leisure without UN approval themselves.

India (years or decades down the road) could decide they're sick of Pakistan being a thorn in their side... and attack, invoking a series of unsatisfactory reasons as the US did and go right ahead.
The US being an ally, will have to react... or will they when they realize they'd actually have to fight a true army? And besides, it's not as if they had been attacked themselves. Who would Europe back in such a case? China & Russia?

What this war, which most of the world regards as illegitimate, has done is promote global instability going forward... that is the primary reason why I don't support this war.
What it has also accomplished is fanning the anti-american sentiment accross the world, AND fanned the US's anti-"the rest of the world" sentiment... which will lead to US isolationism.
No need for us to join them in that cocoon, better for us to start seperating ourselves to regain our own identity and start forging stronger relationships with the rest to the world. As a small and militarily insignificant country, our best option is to adopt a more neutral foreign policy (not anti US, just neutral) and focus on peace-keeping & humanitarian missions as we are already doing.

When we agree, we'll agree... when we don't, we won't.
Isn't that the kind of freedom & democracy the US says it values so much? In that case they should be thrilled with how we've shown we're free to think for ourselves, thank you very much.



You have mail.

[PTH]

spozzy said:

Up here it's the land of the free-loaders and home of the cowards.

Hey, if you don't like it here, you know what to do....

Go to the land of the selfish invaders who'll fight anyone, anywhere, if there's oil in the ground or if they put the extremist dictator in power.

Even better if there's both.