Atlantic Accord

[Skilly]

You want to get a Newfoundlander irrate, you need only mean three words, Churchill Falls Deal. But the Atlantic Accord Deal are three new words that are enough to make a Newfoundlander and Nova Scotian fit to be tied.

I have read about 7 upalong newspapers since the "deal that would be" turned into the "deal that won't be" and 6 of them have nothing good to say about Newfoundland's stance on the deal, the one that did was from Nova Scotia, but that even had a mild undertone in it. It seems that most of the Canadian media have short memories, very short memories at that.

Newfoundland only wants want it was promised. 100% of its provincial revenues from the offshore oil and gas off the coast of Newfoundland. We are not asking for any of the federal government's share, contrary to what the Globe and Mail or Toronto Star would have people believe. Right now Newfoundland only gets 30% of its provincial share, while Ottawa rakes home 100% of its federal share and 70% of Newfoundland's provincial share (due to equalization clawback). We are asking for the same tratment as Alberta's oil - to be exempt from equalization. If Alberta's oil revenues were counted in equalization it would be a different story.

One newspaper suggested that Newfoundland was looking for another handout - revenue from the offshore and equalization. Well in the 1950's and 1960's Alberta were given special exemption grants from the federal government to develop their oil and gas industries which they never had to pay back. And Saskatchewan, BC and Quebec have all been given special exemptions in equalization money for one reason or another since it was implemented in the 1950's. It seems that Most of Canada (I wont use the Quebec ROC) wants to see Newfoundland remain the poorest province. We are a proud people and are sick and tired as being viewed as the poorest province in Canada. The fact is that per capita Newfoundland contributes 3 times as much to the economy of Canada than any other province, yet we have the highest umemployment rates, out migration rates, and lowest standard of living. Why? Because every time there is a source of revenue found in Newfoundland, MOC has to make sure that they take a cut (sort of an eternal thank you for saving us by letting us join this freaking Confederation so they can look down their noses at us). Churchill Falls, IOC, Voisey's Bay, Hibernia, the mismanagement of the fisheries, and our forestry industry ....... most of Canada benefits from but Newfoundland look by and watch money and jobs go to the "ever deserving" mainlanders.

Finally we take a stance and say no more giveaways and we are chastised. Why is it that a pipeline over land is legal and you don't have to pay for the corridor, but a hydro-electric line over land is illegal and you pay a king's ransom for the corridor? Why is it that an oil deposit over land is the province's property, but an oil field over sea is considered federal land? It is enough to make us want to part ways with Canada and go it on our own.

If the Ontario clause remains in the deal, Newfoundland will be perpetually poor. Ontario's economy is self sustaining, Newfoundland's is tied to non-renewable resources. Once the resources run out Newfoundland could be back where we started if left in the hands of Canada. Left to our own devices we can manage it better, and will manage it better. We need the revenue now to plan for tomorrow. Right now per capita Ontario is $6700 per person. Because our population is so small and the revenue from the oil so great, then we will surpass Ontario easily. We'd only need $234 million from the oil to do so. The accord was struck in 1987ish ..... the intent of the accord was to make the provinces the principle beneficiary ..... so in most Newfoundlandler's minds we are owed 17 years of money that should have flowed to Newfoundland .... but Ottawa took from us, which was not the intent of the accord.

We do not want the revenues and equalization. Newfoundlander do not want to be an equalization receiving province, we want to contribute to the canadian economy. But we also want to be treated fairly, and given the same deal as other provinces received. The next chance we have of something of this magnitude in Newfoundland is 2049 when we rake Quebec over the coals for the Churchill Falls deal. It is funny though, because a call for tender proposals for the Lower Churchill went out last month and one of the parties submitting a bid was the government of Quebec. To a man, no one in Newfoundland wants to see any power from the Lower Churchill go over Quebec land, unless they renegotiate the Upper Churchill deal - and that was a clause and they still submitted a proposal.

Ahhhh when we get the billions from the accord and build the lines on the sea bed, then Quebec won't be a part of the equation anymore.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

I ws wondering why you were getting so upset about Honda making a car especially for the rigors of the Atlantic Provinces.
Seriously though, it points out one of the problems of big government, revenue sharing and special backroom deals and exemptions.
In Los Angeles it means about as much as Indian Gaming Casinos (Props. 68 and 70) mean to you.
Ottawa has a habit of trying to do the right/expedient thing and it ends up with egg on it's face in the long run. It's safe to say that over the last 50 years Nfld. has benefitted from Ottawa subsidies and I don't know the details but now it seems some is being taken back.
Churchill Falls was a bad (make that terrible) deal for Newfoundland, but I'm not sure I blame Quebec for not wanting to renegotiate after the ink has dried for 50 years. It makes no sense in todays energy world pricing though and it has stopped further development and expansion. Goodenow and Bettman took the Churchill Falls primer on how to negotiate.

[Skilly]

Habs_fan_in_LA said:

I ws wondering why you were getting so upset about Honda making a car especially for the rigors of the Atlantic Provinces.
Seriously though, it points out one of the problems of big government, revenue sharing and special backroom deals and exemptions.
In Los Angeles it means about as much as Indian Gaming Casinos (Props. 68 and 70) mean to you.
Ottawa has a habit of trying to do the right/expedient thing and it ends up with egg on it's face in the long run. It's safe to say that over the last 50 years Nfld. has benefitted from Ottawa subsidies and I don't know the details but now it seems some is being taken back.
Churchill Falls was a bad (make that terrible) deal for Newfoundland, but I'm not sure I blame Quebec for not wanting to renegotiate after the ink has dried for 50 years. It makes no sense in todays energy world pricing though and it has stopped further development and expansion. Goodenow and Bettman took the Churchill Falls primer on how to negotiate.

I don't blame Quebec for taking what it could get. That was and will remain the problem of Newfoundland politicians for an eternity. But that deal will run its course, and then we will have control of it again.

What I am upset over, is the rest of Canada looking down their noses at us for wanting to get out of poverty. Alberta took what they could get, Quebec took what they could get, Ontarion and canada are always taking what they can get, so why frown upon us for wanting a deal that is favourable to Newfoundland for once.

How long does Newfoundland have to keep bowing down to the rest of Canada in servitude until the debt of past subsidies is considered paid in full? No other province had to pay off their subsidies. Where do you think Alberta got the money to develop their oil industry? The government of Canada - and not a nickel was paid back.

Canada is constantly complaining that Newfoundland is a EI loving, economic drain on the country. Not true. Fact is we could be one of the richest provinces if the rest of Canada would leave us alone, (albeit it would only last until the oil runs out). They look at the statistics and see 17% unemployment, but fail to look at how much we lose in equalization clawbacks that help their provinces. Only 2 provinces do not receive this "subsidy" and yet Newfoundland is looked upon as the bad son. Ever wonder why Quebec, Saskatchewan, and New Brunswick are against changes to equalization and the Atlantic Accord? Because they are the provinces that receive the most money from it.

I am not sure if we will get what we want from this. But it irks the hell out of me that people do not believe it is our right to get some benefit from our own resources.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

Newfoundland has another strike against it. Even after the agreement with Quebec has run out, there is no other option but for Nfld. to sell to Quebec. When you know your bargaining opponent is out of options, you can take a hard line.
Newfoundland has lots of rocks, trees and bad weather going against it and only oil and the determination of it's people going for it. Good luck.

[razor]

Wow, some of these statements are completely out to lunch. Maybe a little research before making blanket statements?

Ottawa's Equalization Estimates (figures dated October, 2003)

Province Payment per Fiscal Year ($million)
2000-01 2003-04
Quebec 5,412 4,525
Nova Scotia 1,328 1,190
Manitoba 1,239 1,339
New Brunswick 1,207 1,187
Newfoundland 1,101 798
Saskatchewan 237 267
British Columbia - 557
P.E.I. 256 235
Total 10,780 10,097
Source: Finance Canada

The above chart was copied from the following CBC link:

www.cbc.ca/news/background/equalization/

Here in Saskatchewan, prior to the last federal election it became public that the equalization clawback was OVER 100% of our increased resource revenues. How is that for a kick in the nuts. We had to fight just to keep the 30% that the Atlantic provinces get.

Far from being a pig at the trough (cough - Quebec - cough), Saskatchewan is very close to becoming a "have" province, for all that is worth.

And anyone from Eastern Canada better not mention the National Energy Program to someone from Alberta. That was a royal screwjob that set Alberta back years. Another reason that the West does not trust the Federal Government.

All this aside, I truly like Newfie's and served with a few back in the early 90's with the 1st Battalion PPCLI out of Calgary. I still don't know how those guys ended up so far West in the middle of the prairie.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

razor said:

Wow, some of these statements are completely out to lunch. Maybe a little research before making blanket statements?

Ottawa's Equalization Estimates (figures dated October, 2003)

Province Payment per Fiscal Year ($million)
2000-01 2003-04
Quebec 5,412 4,525
Nova Scotia 1,328 1,190
Manitoba 1,239 1,339
New Brunswick 1,207 1,187
Newfoundland 1,101 798
Saskatchewan 237 267
British Columbia - 557
P.E.I. 256 235
Total 10,780 10,097
Source: Finance Canada

The above chart was copied from the following CBC link:

www.cbc.ca/news/background/equalization/

Here in Saskatchewan, prior to the last federal election it became public that the equalization clawback was OVER 100% of our increased resource revenues. How is that for a kick in the nuts. We had to fight just to keep the 30% that the Atlantic provinces get.

Far from being a pig at the trough (cough - Quebec - cough), Saskatchewan is very close to becoming a "have" province, for all that is worth.

And anyone from Eastern Canada better not mention the National Energy Program to someone from Alberta. That was a royal screwjob that set Alberta back years. Another reason that the West does not trust the Federal Government.

All this aside, I truly like Newfie's and served with a few back in the early 90's with the 1st Battalion PPCLI out of Calgary. I still don't know how those guys ended up so far West in the middle of the prairie.

Not taking sides and this is always a delicate topic; but:
ANY government that robs the rich to pay the poor is always disliked by the rich and resented by the poor. Governments that rob the poor to pamper the rich are held in even lower esteem, (Let them freeze in the dark and scr&w those western oilmen not withstanding).

[Skilly]

razor said:

Wow, some of these statements are completely out to lunch. Maybe a little research before making blanket statements?

Ottawa's Equalization Estimates (figures dated October, 2003)

Province Payment per Fiscal Year ($million)
2000-01 2003-04
Quebec 5,412 4,525
Nova Scotia 1,328 1,190
Manitoba 1,239 1,339
New Brunswick 1,207 1,187
Newfoundland 1,101 798
Saskatchewan 237 267
British Columbia - 557
P.E.I. 256 235
Total 10,780 10,097
Source: Finance Canada

The above chart was copied from the following CBC link:

www.cbc.ca/news/background/equalization/

Here in Saskatchewan, prior to the last federal election it became public that the equalization clawback was OVER 100% of our increased resource revenues. How is that for a kick in the nuts. We had to fight just to keep the 30% that the Atlantic provinces get.

Far from being a pig at the trough (cough - Quebec - cough), Saskatchewan is very close to becoming a "have" province, for all that is worth.

And anyone from Eastern Canada better not mention the National Energy Program to someone from Alberta. That was a royal screwjob that set Alberta back years. Another reason that the West does not trust the Federal Government.

All this aside, I truly like Newfie's and served with a few back in the early 90's with the 1st Battalion PPCLI out of Calgary. I still don't know how those guys ended up so far West in the middle of the prairie.

I am sorry .... I was only quoting what I saw on CBC ..... you are right the three provinces that recieve the most are Quebec, New Brunswick and Manitoba. Sorry about that. Missed it by one province ... oops.

[Skilly]

Habs_fan_in_LA said:

Newfoundland has another strike against it. Even after the agreement with Quebec has run out, there is no other option but for Nfld. to sell to Quebec. When you know your bargaining opponent is out of options, you can take a hard line.
Newfoundland has lots of rocks, trees and bad weather going against it and only oil and the determination of it's people going for it. Good luck.

Errrr Wrong.

We do not have to go through Quebec. In fact, Quebec has made it a cheaper option to not go through Quebec. Over the course of the contract, Newfoundland will have lost billions and probale trillions of dollars.

Option 2. Build a hydro line from the Muskrat falls sight to the southern shore of Labrador around L'anse au Clair. Then go underwater (remember the sea is federal land) down the coast straight to Maine. The Eastern seaboard of the United States is where a vast majority of the power goes and they don't care how they get it, as long as they get it. Or come across to the island, then use the lines already here to Port Aux Basques, and then across to Maine.

Currently, Newfoundland's deficit is between $600 - $800 million depending on what you decide to include in the calculation and who you decide to believe. The provincial Liberlas maintai it is around $635 million, the Tories say it is $850 million. (The difference is that the Tories are including student loans in there calculation - $220 million - that they say they are not guaranteed will be paid back).

The province has currently cut back everything in the public sector and raised the prices of everything (doubled car licensing, gas taxes, etc) to bring down our deficit. The province is now working on balancing the budget (which we will know if they did for the first year soon enough). If we can get our budget balanced then the Atlantic Accord becomes huge. The provinces estimates that if we accept Paul Martin's proposal that will mean an average lose of $234 million dollars. If we get 100%, we can take that $234 million and get the deficit paid off . Quebec has a 25 year option they have already said they will pick up starting in 2014. (The rate was 2.5mills per kilowatt hour, reduce to 2.1 mills over the contract. However, the 25 year option reduces the price further to 2.0 mills) So that give us 39 years to get the deficit paid off and (most have estimated 25 years of oil of the coast) to get an underwater hydroline built to get another source of revenue flowing into our province. And it can only be done if we get 100% of the Atlantic Accord.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

Skilly said:

Errrr Wrong.

We do not have to go through Quebec. In fact, Quebec has made it a cheaper option to not go through Quebec. Over the course of the contract, Newfoundland will have lost billions and probale trillions of dollars.

Option 2. Build a hydro line from the Muskrat falls sight to the southern shore of Labrador around L'anse au Clair. Then go underwater (remember the sea is federal land) down the coast straight to Maine. The Eastern seaboard of the United States is where a vast majority of the power goes and they don't care how they get it, as long as they get it. Or come across to the island, then use the lines already here to Port Aux Basques, and then across to Maine.

Currently, Newfoundland's deficit is between $600 - $800 million depending on what you decide to include in the calculation and who you decide to believe. The provincial Liberlas maintai it is around $635 million, the Tories say it is $850 million. (The difference is that the Tories are including student loans in there calculation - $220 million - that they say they are not guaranteed will be paid back).

The province has currently cut back everything in the public sector and raised the prices of everything (doubled car licensing, gas taxes, etc) to bring down our deficit. The province is now working on balancing the budget (which we will know if they did for the first year soon enough). If we can get our budget balanced then the Atlantic Accord becomes huge. The provinces estimates that if we accept Paul Martin's proposal that will mean an average lose of $234 million dollars. If we get 100%, we can take that $234 million and get the deficit paid off . Quebec has a 25 year option they have already said they will pick up starting in 2014. (The rate was 2.5mills per kilowatt hour, reduce to 2.1 mills over the contract. However, the 25 year option reduces the price further to 2.0 mills) So that give us 39 years to get the deficit paid off and (most have estimated 25 years of oil of the coast) to get an underwater hydroline built to get another source of revenue flowing into our province. And it can only be done if we get 100% of the Atlantic Accord.

Assuming your numbers are correct, do it. Maine might not be the hungry customer that NY is and Quebec, and the power lines will be longer and much more expensive and Quebec will be saddled with a useless power line and will be forced to pay a fair price to carry Newfie power. Start soon as these bond issues and planning and underwater cable engineering take years to complete. By that time Bettman will be available to negotiate on behalf of Quebec and Goodenow for Newfoundland.

What happens if Newfoundland has to turn off the power for inspection of the plant at Churchill Falls during the option period? Let them freeze in the dark!
Newfoundland agreed to a bad deal on power and Quebec agreed to a bad deal on Labrador. Turkey vs. Armenia, Ireland Green vs. Orange, Spain vs. Basque, Israel vs. Palestine, Republicans vs. Democrats. There is no limit to the opportunities for Goodenow and Bettman.

All deals should be shorter term. Salaries, power costs all fluctuate over 50 years and 2.1mills per killowatt makes as much sense as Gordie Howe's $25,000 per year contract does today, even including his free Red Wings jacket.

[Skilly]

Habs_fan_in_LA said:

Assuming your numbers are correct, do it. Maine might not be the hungry customer that NY is and Quebec, and the power lines will be longer and much more expensive and Quebec will be saddled with a useless power line and will be forced to pay a fair price to carry Newfie power. Start soon as these bond issues and planning and underwater cable engineering take years to complete. By that time Bettman will be available to negotiate on behalf of Quebec and Goodenow for Newfoundland.

What happens if Newfoundland has to turn off the power for inspection of the plant at Churchill Falls during the option period? Let them freeze in the dark!
Newfoundland agreed to a bad deal on power and Quebec agreed to a bad deal on Labrador. Turkey vs. Armenia, Ireland Green vs. Orange, Spain vs. Basque, Israel vs. Palestine, Republicans vs. Democrats. There is no limit to the opportunities for Goodenow and Bettman.

All deals should be shorter term. Salaries, power costs all fluctuate over 50 years and 2.1mills per killowatt makes as much sense as Gordie Howe's $25,000 per year contract does today, even including his free Red Wings jacket.

The ultimate destination would be all the New England states. Massetuchettes, New York, DC, etc. But it is imperative that every chance we get that the line goes ashore. It reduces the probablility of failure greatly, allows easier servicing, and is way cheaper. Getting a power corridor from any US state will be easy. But since Maine is the closest that is where it will eventually come ashore.

I have been taking to executive with Hydro here in Newfoundland. They don't think it will ever be built, but they say that if it is then it will cost around 5 billion dollars. They also propose that if it is built that it comes ashore in northern Newfoundland and then they build new lines down to Port Aux Basques (apparently they can't use existing lines because it will be DC current). Then they go underwater again, but it would have to come ashore again in Nova Scotia. (a deal with them would have to be made for a small section over their land - it all has to do with probabilities of failure). Then they build a line directly to Maine and over land to the Eastern US states.

The easier option they say is to negotiate with Quebec but play hardball. Make the deal highly favourable to Newfoundland (when selling it per kilowatt hour) and make the Quebec government pay a royalty tax on our power to recoup the trilllions we lost over the 69 years previous. But make no mistake, they will begin negoitiating about 10-15 years prior to the end of the contract to give them enough chance for optionB.

[PTH]

Skilly said:

The easier option they say is to negotiate with Quebec but play hardball. Make the deal highly favourable to Newfoundland (when selling it per kilowatt hour) and make the Quebec government pay a royalty tax on our power to recoup the trilllions we lost over the 69 years previous. But make no mistake, they will begin negoitiating about 10-15 years prior to the end of the contract to give them enough chance for optionB.

I hate to say this, but why play hardball ? You look at the original Churchill Falls deal as a "debt" that Quebec owes to NL - it's not, it's just one bad deal signed by one bad premier in NL. It's his fault, not Quebec's. If when negotiation time comes NL is expecting some kind of payday out Quebec, then they can start planning that underwater line right now...

[Skilly]

PTH said:

I hate to say this, but why play hardball ? You look at the original Churchill Falls deal as a "debt" that Quebec owes to NL - it's not, it's just one bad deal signed by one bad premier in NL. It's his fault, not Quebec's. If when negotiation time comes NL is expecting some kind of payday out Quebec, then they can start planning that underwater line right now...

I agree with you, and have previously stated, that it is not Quebec's fault. They did the same thing anybody else woudl have - took the most they could get for their province.

My beef is actually with the Government of Canada. They left Newfoundland high and dry back then. They should have saw the incompetency of the Newfoundland premier and stepped in. They should have declared the project a project for the greater betterment of all Canadians (much the same as they did with Alberta's oil fields). I come down on Quebec only because it is highly recognized internationally as the worst contract in the history of business (maybe the world) and at every turn they refuse to renegotiate a fairer deal. In essence, they are sticking to the contract (well within their rights) and playing hardball. So why can't Newfoundland for once try to get something out of Confederation?

I also have a beef with the mainland media who are complaining that Newfoundland does not deserve to be a "have" province. That Newfoundland should take what they are given (handouts) and shut up. If other provincial leaders take what they can (Charest, Klein, McGuinty) and are looked upon favorable, then why should we be looked upon as lepers when we try to get more for our province?

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Ontario gives until it hurts.

I mean aside from being a cash cow that is assumed to be available for milking 24/7 by "needier" neighbours, they have bestowed upon the country the Maple Leafs, for Pete's sake. It takes a certain amount of stoicism and chutzpah to make nationally available such a straw man.

[Skilly]

Ontario gives until it hurts, is a misnomer. They actually take until they have a yaffle and then go back for more.

Not sure if anyone reads newspapers outside of Ontario and Quebec but out here the media blitz is on exactly how much "federal subsidization" Ontario receives. They actually receive more federal money per capita than any other province (which they don't have to pay back).

As an example, per capita, Ontarians have more federal paying jobs than anywhere else in the country. Yet, out west and in the east the federal government are trying to cut back departments (mostly through attrition).

Ontarians also receive more, per capita, money for infrastructure improvements.

The media out there is afraid to look in the mirror, for thy true selves will be revealed.

[Skilly]

I must say that I am really upset at the Bloc Quebecois today.

I understand, and support, that the Quebecois want to govern themselves and have as little federal government involvement as possible (assymetric federalism). I understand, and support, that the french culture needs to be protected. Canada proports to be bilingual, when we are not. The government should cut the bilingual crap talk (the only provinces I have been in that I had to speak french (because English was not the first language of the person I was talking to) was New Brunswick and Quebec. If we are going to be bilingual then we have to be truly 50/50.

What I don't understand is why is the Bloc against another province for wanting less federal government involvement in their affairs. I know the "mission statement" of the Bloc is to protect Quebec and to have a voice for Quebec in the House of Commons. Steven Harper was here yesterday and said that Martin has got the Bloc on his side so the motion will not pass in the House of Commons on the Atlantic Accord.

It is true the Atlantic Accord does not affect Quebec, but if they do not want to show support for a non Quebec issue I am fine with that. Abstain from the vote. Why in God's name would you vote against it. You are basically slapping Newfoundland and Nova Scotia in the face.

As I understand it, Harper intends to make another resolution. Reword it to make it more Quebec friendly. I think it should be just a basic "Do you feel that the provincial governments should have total control over their natural resources, and that non-renewable resources be sheltered from equalization calculations?" ---- Can't see the Bloc saying no to that!

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Skilly said:

Ontario gives until it hurts, is a misnomer. They actually take until they have a yaffle and then go back for more.

Not sure if anyone reads newspapers outside of Ontario and Quebec but out here the media blitz is on exactly how much "federal subsidization" Ontario receives. They actually receive more federal money per capita than any other province (which they don't have to pay back).

As an example, per capita, Ontarians have more federal paying jobs than anywhere else in the country. Yet, out west and in the east the federal government are trying to cut back departments (mostly through attrition).

Ontarians also receive more, per capita, money for infrastructure improvements.

The media out there is afraid to look in the mirror, for thy true selves will be revealed.

More people, more business, more investment, less unemployment, more productivity.

Vive l'Ontario libre!

[Skilly]

M. said:

More people, more business, more investment, less unemployment, more productivity.

Vive l'Ontario libre!

15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.


Hmmmm .... Under the Canadian Charter of Rights we have the right to be treated equally irregardless of where we live.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Skilly said:

As an example, per capita, Ontarians have more federal paying jobs than anywhere else in the country. Yet, out west and in the east the federal government are trying to cut back departments (mostly through attrition).

Ottawa, the nation's capitol, is located in which province again? Skews the federal paying jobs numbers a bit, doesn't it?

Leaving the unavoidable government jobs out of the mix, it is hardly surprising that a province with a population of 11,410,146 (38% of the country) and a more developed and diversified industrial base receives more gross subsidy funds than a province with a population of 512,930 (1.7% of the country).

*

Federal Transfers to Newfoundland and Labrador

The Government of Canada provides financial support to the provincial government of Newfoundland and Labrador, most notably through the Canada Health Transfer (CHT), the Canada Social Transfer (CST), the Health Reform Transfer (HRT) and Equalization.

It is estimated that in 2004-05, support through major transfers to Newfoundland and Labrador will total nearly $1.3 billion (about $2,449 per person).

In 2004-05, federal major transfers are estimated to account for about 32 per cent of the province’s revenues.

---

Federal Transfers to Ontario

The Government of Canada provides financial support to the provincial government of Ontario, most notably through the Canada Health Transfer (CHT), the Canada Social Transfer (CST) and the Health Reform Transfer (HRT).

It is estimated that in 2004-05, support through major transfers to Ontario will total nearly $16.4 billion (about $1,322 per person).

In 2004-05, federal major transfers are estimated to account for about 21 per cent of the province’s revenues.

- www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/mtpe.html

Ontario receives the least amount of transfer funds per capita of all the provinces. Same as it ever was.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

Would anybody want the Atlantic Accord to be the model for the NHL equalization/cap/cost assurance model?
The rich teams give the poor teams just enough money to stay afloat and keep losing their best players.

[Skilly]

M. said:

Ottawa, the nation's capitol, is located in which province again? Skews the federal paying jobs numbers a bit, doesn't it?

Leaving the unavoidable government jobs out of the mix, it is hardly surprising that a province with a population of 11,410,146 (38% of the country) and a more developed and diversified industrial base receives more gross subsidy funds than a province with a population of 512,930 (1.7% of the country).

*

Federal Transfers to Newfoundland and Labrador

The Government of Canada provides financial support to the provincial government of Newfoundland and Labrador, most notably through the Canada Health Transfer (CHT), the Canada Social Transfer (CST), the Health Reform Transfer (HRT) and Equalization.

It is estimated that in 2004-05, support through major transfers to Newfoundland and Labrador will total nearly $1.3 billion (about $2,449 per person).

In 2004-05, federal major transfers are estimated to account for about 32 per cent of the province’s revenues.

---

Federal Transfers to Ontario

The Government of Canada provides financial support to the provincial government of Ontario, most notably through the Canada Health Transfer (CHT), the Canada Social Transfer (CST) and the Health Reform Transfer (HRT).

It is estimated that in 2004-05, support through major transfers to Ontario will total nearly $16.4 billion (about $1,322 per person).

In 2004-05, federal major transfers are estimated to account for about 21 per cent of the province’s revenues.

- www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/mtpe.html

Ontario receives the least amount of transfer funds per capita of all the provinces. Same as it ever was.

Ahhh the numbers game.

transfer money ..... they receive less because they do not qualify for equalization.
But they receive more money outside the transfer money that you have not accounted for there. they receive more federal money on a per capita basis (so it does not matter if it is 10,000,000 people or 10 people) than any other province. It just comes outside the transfer money and is called something else.

What is Ontario, Alberta etc afraid of? That will we actually become a more prosperous province for the life of the non-renewable resource? No, they will be content to take our oil, our iron ore, our nickel, our cobalt, our fishery, our electricity, and thank us for joining confederation and keeping their businesses trading high on the markets. Yeah, thanks for nothing.


EDIT: It's true all provinces receive money outside of equalization or transfer money, even Ontario, and that is where they catch up with the money received by the "have-nots"

Some examples: Canada-Ontario Infrastructure Program (680.7 million) ; Genome Canada which is basically doing research for Ontario (300 million) ; Automotive Industry (a prospective 200-250 million for the plant in Oakville). Justthose three projects top out at 1.2 billion and I am sure there is more.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Skilly said:

transfer money ..... they receive less because they do not qualify for equalization.But they receive more money outside the transfer money that you have not accounted for there. they receive more federal money on a per capita basis (so it does not matter if it is 10,000,000 people or 10 people) than any other province. It just comes outside the transfer money and is called something else.

Give it a name and give us a source of information. Otherwise you're just whistling in the wind my friend.

What is Ontario, Alberta etc afraid of? That will we actually become a more prosperous province for the life of the non-renewable resource? No, they will be content to take our oil, our iron ore, our nickel, our cobalt, our fishery, our electricity, and thank us for joining confederation and keeping their businesses trading high on the markets. Yeah, thanks for nothing.

Ontario and Alberta aren't afraid of anything. They're making the most of their opportunities.

EDIT: It's true all provinces receive money outside of equalization or transfer money, even Ontario, and that is where they catch up with the money received by the "have-nots"

Some examples: Canada-Ontario Infrastructure Program (680.7 million) ; Genome Canada which is basically doing research for Ontario (300 million) ; Automotive Industry (a prospective 200-250 million for the plant in Oakville). Justthose three projects top out at 1.2 billion and I am sure there is more.

Again provide some links to sources for your numbers if you want them to be taken seriously.

Build it and the money will come. If you have the brainpower, manpower and initiative, use it, and odds are pretty good you will prosper. That applies both on individual and communal levels.

Whining about Ontario or Québec or Alberta is not going to make Newfoundland a more prosperous province.

[Skilly]

The problem with providing links is I really don't know how to ...... I usually just cut and paste. Sometimes I get them to work .... sometimes they don't.

I am not trying to whine to you or anyone else for that matter. I just want Newfoundland to get what it was promised and get the benefit of our own resources for the first time since 1949. Reading the mainland media (editorials, forums, open lines) they seem to think we are ingrates for wanting what was promised to us. If that is the general point of view of the majority of people west of Nova Scotis then that just goes to show you how little they think of us - says more about them then it does us.

By the way here is my attempt at getting you those links (don't know what good it does, because $1.2 billion ($110 per person) is still a drop in the bucket for 11 million people, I was just providing examples). But it will be impossible to for us to be a "have" province when the upalong they feel it is their birthright to make fun of our destitute/poverty. We will always be good for the ol Newfie joke, won't we? Ahhhh our contribution to Confederation! Makes my heart warm.

www.cbsc.org/ontario/english/search/display.cfm?Code=2943&coll=FE_FEDSBIS_E

www.genomecanada.ca/Gcmedia/communiquesPresse/indexDetails.asp?id=144&l=e

about half way down you see that they receive $300 million in government money and that they basically work closely building Ontario genomic research. It says it does work all over the country, but primarily in Ontario.

www.freep.com/money/autonews/ford23e_20041023.htm

Over $200 million to a company to expand its plant. A compant with 39 billion in revenues and $260 million in earnings!! Nice use of federal money. Sponsorship / Airbus anyone??

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Skilly said:

The problem with providing links is I really don't know how to ...... I usually just cut and paste. Sometimes I get them to work .... sometimes they don't.

Fair enough. Cut-and-paste usually does the trick.

I am not trying to whine to you or anyone else for that matter. I just want Newfoundland to get what it was promised and get the benefit of our own resources for the first time since 1949. Reading the mainland media (editorials, forums, open lines) they seem to think we are ingrates for wanting what was promised to us. If that is the general point of view of the majority of people west of Nova Scotis then that just goes to show you how little they think of us - says more about them then it does us.

You cannot sit around and wait for what you think is owed to you to be delivered. You have to stand up and fight for it. Ask PTH, for instance, about Québec in this regard.

By the way here is my attempt at getting you those links (don't know what good it does, because $1.2 billion ($110 per person) is still a drop in the bucket for 11 million people, I was just providing examples). But it will be impossible to for us to be a "have" province when the upalong they feel it is their birthright to make fun of our destitute/poverty. We will always be good for the ol Newfie joke, won't we? Ahhhh our contribution to Confederation! Makes my heart warm.

A self-pitying and counter-productive attitude.

www.cbsc.org/ontario/english/search/display.cfm?Code=2943&coll=FE_FEDSBIS_E

www.genomecanada.ca/Gcmedia/communiquesPresse/indexDetails.asp?id=144&l=e

about half way down you see that they receive $300 million in government money and that they basically work closely building Ontario genomic research. It says it does work all over the country, but primarily in Ontario.

The links work.

Ontario has the highest concentration of medical professionals in the country. It's perfectly normal that such research projects find their genesis here.

www.freep.com/money/autonews/ford23e_20041023.htm

Over $200 million to a company to expand its plant. A compant with 39 billion in revenues and $260 million in earnings!! Nice use of federal money. Sponsorship / Airbus anyone??

Infrastructure in place, increased employment, and more importantly to the Feds, more tax dollars to harvest. C'est normal.

As they said in the old (federally funded) egg commercials, "Get cracking!"

*

From "The Good the Bad & the Ugly":

Tuco is in a bubble bath. The One Armed Man enters the room

One Armed Man: I've been looking for you for 8 months. Whenever I should have had a gun in my right hand, I thought of you. Now I find you in exactly the position that suits me. I had lots of time to learn to shoot with my left.

Tuco kills him with the gun he has hidden in the foam

Tuco: When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk.

[razor]

An interesting chronology of the events leading up to Newfoundland joining Canada. I had never really been curious about it until this thread.

www.collectionscanada.ca/2/18/h18-2230-e.html

[Skilly]

razor said:

An interesting chronology of the events leading up to Newfoundland joining Canada. I had never really been curious about it until this thread.

www.collectionscanada.ca/2/18/h18-2230-e.html

Well then my job is done. I have to admire someone for taking an interest in our humble province.

[Skilly]

M. said:

You cannot sit around and wait for what you think is owed to you to be delivered. You have to stand up and fight for it. Ask PTH, for instance, about Québec in this regard.

We are standing up, we are fighting, we are even waving the independance flag again (as you can see below my name). Which is why it dumbfounds me that the Bloc Quebecois would turn their back on us. Well not all of them, but enough ..... I mean 41 people abstained or were absent from the vote. And I can't blame Lawrence O'Brien for being absent, as he has a very good excuse (cancer treatments), but those 41 would have gotten us 6 votes shy.


We just aren't threatening a referendum - 7,000,000 voices and 75 seats have alot more influence than 500,000 voices and 7 seats.

I thought we were in this battle arm in arm with Nova Scotia. Any Nova Scotians here to explain to me why their MPs wouldn't vote for the benefit of our two provinces?

[duster]

On the surface, for two possible reasons. Firstly, they probably don't feel victimized in this case and, secondly, they likely don't see how it's as critical to them as it is to you. You'd have to convince them otherwise, IMHO. Has the NF government actually tried to do this?

As Mr. B stated earlier, stand up and fight for it in parliament like the BQ is doing for Quebec and the Reform Party did for the West. Vague threats of secession and the word "unfair" will achieve nothing but indifference from an already jaded public. 7 seats do matter, particularly with a minority government in Ottawa.

[Skilly]

duster said:

On the surface, for two possible reasons. Firstly, they probably don't feel victimized in this case and, secondly, they likely don't see how it's as critical to them as it is to you. You'd have to convince them otherwise, IMHO. Has the NF government actually tried to do this?

As Mr. B stated earlier, stand up and fight for it in parliament like the BQ is doing for Quebec and the Reform Party did for the West. Vague threats of secession and the word "unfair" will achieve nothing but indifference from an already jaded public. 7 seats do matter, particularly with a minority government in Ottawa.

Well I am not privy to the political canvassing of our premier, but I do know that he wined and dined John Hamm and his finance minister before going to Ottawa with them. I would have to think that Hamm spoke to every Nova Scotian MP, just as Williams did to the Newfoundland MPs, and they traded notes.

Our premier is on record as saying that any deal for Newfoundland will be rejected on two points: 1) If it is not 100% and 2) if Nova Scotia does not get the same deal. He readily admits Hamm is well within his right to negotiate for Nova Scotia and accept what he wants, but we will not accept less than 100% and we will not leave Nova Scotia's side as long as they are in this process with us.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

Skilly said:

I agree with you, and have previously stated, that it is not Quebec's fault. They did the same thing anybody else woudl have - took the most they could get for their province.

My beef is actually with the Government of Canada. They left Newfoundland high and dry back then. They should have saw the incompetency of the Newfoundland premier and stepped in. They should have declared the project a project for the greater betterment of all Canadians (much the same as they did with Alberta's oil fields). I come down on Quebec only because it is highly recognized internationally as the worst contract in the history of business (maybe the world) and at every turn they refuse to renegotiate a fairer deal. In essence, they are sticking to the contract (well within their rights) and playing hardball. So why can't Newfoundland for once try to get something out of Confederation?

I also have a beef with the mainland media who are complaining that Newfoundland does not deserve to be a "have" province. That Newfoundland should take what they are given (handouts) and shut up. If other provincial leaders take what they can (Charest, Klein, McGuinty) and are looked upon favorable, then why should we be looked upon as lepers when we try to get more for our province?

I don't see building an underwater hydro line from Labrador to Nfld, a line accross nfld., underwater to Nova Scotia, Accross Nova Scotia, through New Brunswick accross Maine and to Massachuscetts as a viable alternative. It would cost Trillions, take decades and for what?

Step 1. Appoint Bettenow as Newfoundland minister of Energy.
Step 2. Appoint Goodman as CEO of Hydro Quebec.
Step 3. Turn off the power and lock Quebec out.
Step 4. Cease all negotiations.

[Skilly]

Habs_fan_in_LA said:

I don't see building an underwater hydro line from Labrador to Nfld, a line accross nfld., underwater to Nova Scotia, Accross Nova Scotia, through New Brunswick accross Maine and to Massachuscetts as a viable alternative. It would cost Trillions, take decades and for what?

Step 1. Appoint Bettenow as Newfoundland minister of Energy.
Step 2. Appoint Goodman as CEO of Hydro Quebec.
Step 3. Turn off the power and lock Quebec out.
Step 4. Cease all negotiations.

It wouldn't go through New Brunswick.

I am not sure, but I believe the preliminary price tag on it is 5.8 billion. (Maybe less .... but I can easily find that out - I have a relative who is an executive with NL Hydro)

It would take less than a decade to complete once the funding is available.

For what? To get more from our resources. The current deal expires in 2039 I believe. That would mean 2 whole generations, plus half another, saw no benefit from developing the Upper Churchill. During that time Quebec has made a fortune off of it (Trillions of dollars) and will make more in the next 35 years. So spending Billions to make trillions make sense to some degree does it not?

The issue of turning off the power has been discussed by almost every lawyer in Newfoundland. While there is debate as to whether we would win or not (I think one in 10 lawyers or something say we would win ..... the argument being that GOC acting unconstitutionally towards Newfoundland and there was a conspiracy involving Smallwood, and one I heard was that Smallwood did not have the authority to give away a natural resource because at the time it was federal jurisdiction), it would be tied up in court (The World Court in the Hague more than likely) and an injunction would be sought by Quebec to have the power on while it is fought in court.

All that aside, it is not the way Newfoundland operates. We may not have much, and we might seems backasswards to the rest of the country, but we fight fair and do not like playing dirty pool with fellow Canadians. We'd rather get along with Quebec and come to an agreement that is to the benefit of both provinces, for both the Upper and Lower Churchill.