Election Fraud?

[Skilly]

MC said:

I started this thread not because Bush won or even because I think he cheated (I honestly have no idea - tampering could have been done by anyone). My biggest problem is with the voting machines (which we do not use in Canada, though that isn't the point here). I was never a big fan of John Kerry, and the fact that he lost (whether ligitimately or not) doesn't exactly change that.

And if there was tampering (all indications seem to suggest so) then so what? It happens everywhere. I don't agree with it, it repulses me as well, but I care more about our election process than theirs. My only reason for playing devil's advocate is that there is no proof that Bush knew of the tampering, that he was involved in it, or that Kerry wasn't doing the same thing.

If the Americans don't want to know the truth, then so be it.

Now you are grabbing at straws. Maybe Bush is an alien or a robot. Perhaps the moon landing was faked. Afterall, we can't rule out those possibilities, no matter how unlikely.

And there's a very small chance that all the air in your room right now will spontaneously form a vacuum around your head, causing you to suffocate. I don't know about you, but I'm terrified.

I won't get as snarky as you (the COC and all), but you are convinced by a 600,000 to 1 possibility. Those aren't great odds. The odds of getting struck by lightning may be 650,000 to 1 in any given year (looked it up, and it depends on population as well), but the odds of getting struck by in your life time are less than 5000 to 1. And the odds of a catostrophic meteor event on earth is 5000 to 1 in any given year. Maybe you should be terrified.

Thanks to Montrealer for the link, which, in the absence of any counter-evidence whatsoever, is proof (as far as I'm concerned) that there was either tampering or a systematic error in the voting machines, and that it probably cost Kerry the election.

Kerry cost Kerry the election. No firm stance on anything. Nobody wants a wishy-washy president.

Isn't it disturbing that in the "ultimate specimen of democracy" nearly half of voting age people don't vote?

Around the same number as Canadians. I believe last election in canada was the worst turn-out in over 100 years. (60% or so)

That there are only 2 parties and both have the same position on the death penalty (for example)?

It is a 2 party system. The real power lies in Congress, not the president. Would you rather a 5 party system (Canada) where if you get a majority because there isn't a viable alternative (dictatorship) the governing PM can do what ever he wants. Each system has its flaws, but in the US they are free to start another party, they just like their system and Nader can't get his foot into the door of the American public.

That over one third of voters have no idea of the policies of the people they're voting for?

Not sure who you voted for last election, but could you tell me what each candidates policy was on Senate Reform/Abortion/ stem cell research/ or NORAD?

That the entire election process is being sold to a couple of companies who are literally incompetent and the votes counted using 'infallible' machines?

They can be fixed, and again there is no proof that the election was lost due to them (if there is no paper trail then there is no proof). When the Democrats get in I am sure the machines will be abolished. On a side note, how would you vote in if we had the machines in Canada? Remember big brother is watching!

That civil liberties are being taken away and people hardly notice?

They are everywhere in the world. Even Canada.

That it may well happen that the whitehouse is occupied by 2 families for a combined 36 years straight?

Now who is grasping at straws. The Bushes are only going to be there for 12. The Clintons 8. Don't coronate Hillary just yet. Unless you expect Jeb to win the Republican nomination. I agree the Americans let who the people are dictate their train of thought more than whatthe people stand for (see Arnold in California). But let's not forget in Canada we have had Liberal rule for over 14 years (tell me they aren't a family when they vote along party lines) and McKenzie King was in office for almost 3 decades. Anomolies occur.