It's been going on for years

[Disgruntled70sHab]

I've met several Americans who used to wear a Canadian pin when traveling in Europe. It got them better service.

Now an American T-shirt company based in New Mexico is flogging the wearing of Canadiana for American tourists as a deterent to answering any politically-related questions while on vacation. Here's what you get for $24.95

"There's a Canadian flag T-shirt, a Canadian flag lapel pin and a Canadian patch for luggage or a backpack. There's also a quick reference guide -- "How to Speak Canadian, Eh?" -- on answering questions about Canada."

edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/12/07/canada.tshirts.ap/index.html

No doubt it will work.

Cheers.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Spot the American!

That would be the person who's trying so very hard to camoflage himself as a Canadian. Being Canadian goes beyond skin deep.

Puts a whole other spin on the phrase, "Proud to be American", don't it. Sad, really.

But if there's a buck to be made...

[franko]

M. said:

Spot the American!

But if there's a buck to be made...

And what's more American than that? The US of A: freeing the world for rampant consumerism!

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

franko said:

And what's more American than that? The US of A: freeing the world for rampant consumerism!

Corporate entities truly do fly their own flags. The legal requirements of any base of operation are merely a formality or hindrance to be overcome.

However, I do find it sad that a number of our neighbour's citizens now feel alienated enough to suggest and even invite disassociation from their homeland. There seems to be a fundamental [sic] widening of the gap between citizen and government, and yet this condition has been created by popular consent (election). I am waiting for the good news to come out of this situation.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

I have to be honest, guys. The American presence in Germany made our lives quite a bit easier.

About once a month Mrs Dis and I would travel up to the American installation in Stuttgart just to take advantage of a little shot of North America. We'd visit the commissary and pick up North American cuts of meat, a wide variety of brand name foods, et al, and quite a bit cheaper than we could get them at the CANEX.

However, we also enjoyed the American leave centres as well. I remember first staying at the American leave centre in Bertchesgaden back in '83. I was serving a tour of duty in the Middle East and the Canadian Forces flew Mrs Dis to Deutchesland so we could be together for two weeks. There were day trips into Italy and Austria as well as many other local sites as well. We ended up staying there several more times during our five-year tenure in Germany.

If there was only one drawback it might have been having to obtain American dollars beforehand. As where Canadian bases dealt with Deutchesmarks, American bases did all of their transactions in USD.

That said, we knew of Americans who routinely traveled while sporting a Canadian flag somewhere on their person. It worked then and it will work now. It's a decent trade off, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Cheers.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Dis, with all due respect, the USA that fought and halted Hitler and took part in the Korean conflict cannot, and IMO should not, be confused with the post-Kennedy USA as far as foreign intervention is concerned. I do speak in a general sense, since not always and not in all aspects has US action abroad been negative in its ultimate outcome since the early 1960s; but the overall track record ain't pretty.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

No worries, Mr. B. I completely understand.

I just wanted to convey how much Mrs. Dis and I appreciated the American presence while were overseas. It gave us access to quite a bit including NA auto parts, most of which cost an arm and a leg if purchased on the local economy.

Thanks buds.

Cheers.

[Montrealer]

M. said:

Dis, with all due respect, the USA that fought and halted Hitler and took part in the Korean conflict cannot, and IMO should not, be confused with the post-Kennedy USA as far as foreign intervention is concerned. I do speak in a general sense, since not always and not in all aspects has US action abroad been negative in its ultimate outcome since the early 1960s; but the overall track record ain't pretty.

What about Iran and Guatemala in the early 1950s?

That said, I don't think Americans in general are bad - but their government's foreign policy has at times been imperialistic and arrogant.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Montrealer said:

What about Iran and Guatemala in the early 1950s?

Not good.

Still, the 1950s is dwarfed by what followed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_actions_since_1945_that_have_been_considered_imperialistic

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

I would check to ensure that Canada has a trademark on the Canadian flag. If not the US company may take out a trademark on it and charge Canadians to use it.

[franko]

Habs_fan_in_LA said:

I would check to ensure that Canada has a trademark on the Canadian flag. If not the US company may take out a trademark on it and charge Canadians to use it.

To quote someone who I have the utmost of respect for:

franko said:

The US of A: freeing the world for rampant consumerism!

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Who's been sold a bill of goods?

[blaise]

The foreign policies of France, Britain, Russia, China, India, Pakistan, North Korea, Syria, Iraq, and Iran have all been exemplary, n'est-ce pas? Canada doesn't impose its will because the puissance isn't there. Besides, its only contiguous neighbor is the US. ;D

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Blaise said:

The foreign policies of France, Britain, Russia, China, India, Pakistan, North Korea, Syria, Iraq, and Iran have all been exemplary, n'est-ce pas? Canada doesn't impose its will because the puissance isn't there. Besides, its only contiguous neighbor is the US. ;D

And that has what to do with ...an American T-shirt company based in New Mexico is flogging the wearing of Canadiana for American tourists as a deterent to answering any politically-related questions while on vacation?

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Posted on CCN yesterday, the story was front page news in today's Ottawa Sun.

www.ottawasun.com/

Cheers.

[Tattac]

Montrealer said:

That said, I don't think Americans in general are bad - but their government's foreign policy has at times been imperialistic and arrogant.

We know that Americans in general are not bad. But it's a general consensus in Europe that they are bad and they are arrogant. Nobody cares if it's their foreign policy or not. I've noticed it in Russia, Spain and Finland that if a person says he/she is Amercian he/she gives rise to negative feelings toward him/her, and if that person says he/she is from Canada, well...he/she is loved. For some reason everybody loves Canada though nobody know anything about Canada except its flag, French language in some parts of it (Quebec? What is it?) and hockey, ahh..and maybe maple syrop.

[blaise]

Tattac said:

We know that Americans in general are not bad. But it's a general consensus in Europe that they are bad and they are arrogant. Nobody cares if it's their foreign policy or not. I've noticed it in Russia, Spain and Finland that if a person says he/she is Amercian he/she gives rise to negative feelings toward him/her, and if that person says he/she is from Canada, well...he/she is loved. For some reason everybody loves Canada though nobody know anything about Canada except its flag, French language in TEXTsome parts of it (Quebec? What is it?)TEXT and hockey, ahh..and maybe maple syrop.

There is no such consensus, Tattac. I daresay I have visited more European cities than you have and have spoken with a great many more people. The hostility applies to the present Bush administration and not to Americans per se. Clinton and Reagan were admired. American cultural trends are adopted in Europe almost as soon as they appear. In Russia the balalaika has not replaced the electric guitar. What I do perceive in Europe is a growing resentment of Moslem minorities. (Have you tried wearing a headscarf in Paris recently?)

[Tattac]

Blaise said:

There is no such consensus, Tattac. I daresay I have visited more European cities than you have and have spoken with a great many more people.

Really? How do you know? I mentioned those countries because I lived in them for a long time and met hundrends of people including Americans who were always complaining about it.

American cultural trends are adopted in Europe almost as soon as they appear.

No doubt about it. And it goes beyond Europe.

In Russia the balalaika has not replaced the electric guitar.

Actually in Russia the electric guitar replaced the balalaika.

What I do perceive in Europe is a growing resentment of Moslem minorities. (Have you tried wearing a headscarf in Paris recently?)

That's also true. But we were talking about Europe, Canada and the US. Muslims in Europe is a totally different subject.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Blaise said:

There is no such consensus, Tattac. I daresay I have visited more European cities than you have and have spoken with a great many more people. The hostility applies to the present Bush administration and not to Americans per se. Clinton and Reagan were admired. American cultural trends are adopted in Europe almost as soon as they appear. In Russia the balalaika has not replaced the electric guitar. What I do perceive in Europe is a growing resentment of Moslem minorities. (Have you tried wearing a headscarf in Paris recently?)

Hi Blaise,

Having lived in Germany for five years I can honestly say Tattac is right about the Canadian image. It's not just in Germany, but in Europe generally speaking. I remember driving through a small Swiss village with Mrs Dis. We were driving our Mustang with the Canadian plates the military issued to us over there. As we drove through the town we got some "thumbs up" from several of the locals. It made us feel pretty good.

As far as the American image in Europe goes, I found Tattac somewhat right with his perceptions as well. Americans are mostly respected around the areas they have their bases. Outside those areas though it is sometimes important to identify yourself as Canadian rather than American, or even British but to a lesser degree. Courtesy is something Canadians are well respected for and that is extended back to you, often immediately, once they know where you're from.

Fast forward to England. We had just gotten off the ferry at Dover. I was in the same Mustang but with different plates (my others had been ripped off in Amsterdam). Keeping my father-in-law on the white line, I almost get rear-ended by a local as we came to a stop out front of a bed and breakfast. We went in and asked to book our B&B for the return trip, some 9 days later.

The first question, ".... are you Americans?"

To which I replied, ".... no Canadians."

"Oh, you're the lad I just about creamed coming up the street. Just got off the boat did you? Sure, no problems. When did you want your rooms for?"

I asked him what difference it made what country we came from. And while I won't tell you what he said, it suffices to say that being Canadian was what got us the rooms we needed 9 days later.

As I was saying earlier, though, we appreciated the conveniences the American bases afforded us. The CANEX was rather limited in what North American products they stocked, but it was a good balance between that and the German goods they sold as well.

As far as newspapers went, we only had a weekly published paper called "Der Kanadier." It was a community newspaper focusing on Canadian/German relations and events. The alternative was "The Stars and Stripes" newspaper that dealt with US-realted matters solely. It was an extremely biased newspaper that wasn't adept to printing their perceptions on what happened. For example, I really didn't know that the Americans had liberated Holland. However, I showed this article to a Dutch gent who was also a good friend of the family back then as to why the Dutch recognize the Canadians as their liberators. "Because it was the Canadians who kicked the Germans out!" He then took the newspaper from me and threw it in the garbage.

I can't say for sure, but there are some differences between the two militaries that facilitated that distinction, not only a biased newspaper. For instance, Canadians are paid in Deutchesmarks, the Americans in dollars. Many Canadian soldiers viewed a tour in Germany as an opportunity and integrated into the environment. Conversely, I talked to some American soldiers who thought being posted to Germany was a punishment.

Coming full-circle on you, Blaise, it really does make a difference being Canadian abroad. The Bush-laden policies are only an extention of an ongoing American foreign policy. Though, Jr has added more fuel to the fire in recent times.

Cheers.

[Skilly]

Going back 5 years, or 10 years I would agree that when in Europe it made a huge difference whether you were Canadian or American. I have heard horror stories from a vast majority of people who have gotten out of a jam simply because they were Canadian.

But as Bob Dylan once worte, "The times they are a changin' ". I think abroad now we are getting viewed more and more with each passing year as an extension of the USA. The only thing saving us from being looked at in the same light as the USA has been the antagonist relations the recent Liberal governments have had with the Americans. But Martin wants to mend those fences, and what he decides with regards to missile defense could land us back in the American graces and frowned upon abroad.

When Bin Laden went public with his little "hit list" of countries, that were going to get taught a lesson for being too friendly with the US, Canada made the list. To recap his list included Spain (train bomb), Italy (beheadings) and Canada. So not every body views us as distinctly different from the US.

We are probably the only country in the world that has the "gaul" errr gumption to stand up to the USA. Its too bad we rely so much on them for everything cause the world could look to Canada to be the voice of reason, and we would stand up to them.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

The Americans response to Europes hostility is:

We don't have to go to France, we have the original Disneyland here.
We don't have to go to Italy, we have the Venecian and Belagio in Las Vegas.
We don't need no stinkin Spain, we have Mexico.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Habs_fan_in_LA said:

The Americans response to Europes hostility is:

We don't have to go to France, we have the original Disneyland here.
We don't have to go to Italy, we have the Venecian and Belagio in Las Vegas.
We don't need no stinkin Spain, we have Mexico.

You seem to have proved a point.

[blaise]

Tattac said:

Really? How do you know? I mentioned those countries because I lived in them for a long time and met hundrends of people including Americans who were always complaining about it.
I DID NOT ENCOUNTER ANTI-AMERICANISM PER SE IN KOLN, BONN, MUNCHEN, BERLIN, VIENNA, BUDAPEST, PRAGUE, STOCKHOLM, GOTEBORG, AND COPENHAGEN, AND THOSE WERE JUST THE CITIES I HAVE VISITED SINCE 2001. I HAD NUMEROUS INTERACTIONS WITH WELL-EDUCATED PEOPLE THERE. HOWEVER, I ENCOUNTERED CONSIDERABLE DISTASTE FOR GEORGE W. BUSH AND HIS POLICIES. (EXCUSE MY LAZINESS IN NOT INSERTING THE DIACRITICAL MARKS IN THESE CITY NAMES.)

No doubt about it. And it goes beyond Europe.
IN LATIN AMERICA THERE HAS BEEN ANTI-YANKEE SENTIMENT AGAINST THE US FOR MANY YEARS. I SAW IT MYSDELF, ALTHOUGH I HAVE NOT BEEN THERE IN MANY YEARS.

Actually in Russia the electric guitar replaced the balalaika.
PRECISELY. THE AMERICAN INNOVATION SUPPLANTED THE TRADITIONAL RUSSIAN INSTRUMENT, AND THERE HAS BEEN NO RETROGRADE MOVEMENT IN THE DIRECTION OF NATIONALIST ROOTS. NOR HAVE ETHNIC RUSSIANS BEEN BURNING DOWN MACDONALDS. HOWEVER, I HAVE OBSERVED ANTI-MOSLEM (ESPECIALLY ANTI-CHECHEN FEELINGS AS WELL AS PREJUDICED TOWARD AFRICANS WHO WERE WELCOMED WITH OPEN ARMS BY THE BOLSHEVIK REGIME AND GIVEN SCHOLARSHIPS AT THE UNIVERSITIES.0

That's also true. But we were talking about Europe, Canada and the US. Muslims in Europe is a totally different subject.

[blaise]

Habs_fan_in_LA said:

The Americans response to Europes hostility is:

We don't have to go to France, we have the original Disneyland here.
We don't have to go to Italy, we have the Venecian and Belagio in Las Vegas.
We don't need no stinkin Spain, we have Mexico.

The American response is to stay home because of the shrinking dollar against the Euro. I have had to face it because some of my recent trips were for professional reasons.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Blaise said:

The American response is to stay home because of the shrinking dollar against the Euro.

And less hostility.

[Tattac]

Blaise, did you reply to my message that way so that I couldn't use "reply" option?

I HAD NUMEROUS INTERACTIONS WITH WELL-EDUCATED PEOPLE THERE.

It is basically my answer. Have you had numerous interactions with un-educated people? Well-educated people is a minority is any country. General perseption I was talking about has nothing to do with them. Let me be bold enough to say that I know more Russians than you do. Some of them have brilliant minds; some of them have almost nothing. Their thoughts are different but the general line is "we don't like Amercians" (why is another question). I know some Germans, Austrians, Finns, Spaniards...they all have different backgrounds. They don't like the US. Sorry. Some of them can distance Amercians from American foreign policy, some of them can't.

PRECISELY. THE AMERICAN INNOVATION SUPPLANTED THE TRADITIONAL RUSSIAN INSTRUMENT, AND THERE HAS BEEN NO RETROGRADE MOVEMENT IN THE DIRECTION OF NATIONALIST ROOTS. NOR HAVE ETHNIC RUSSIANS BEEN BURNING DOWN MACDONALDS.

The Amercian innovation didn't supplant the balalaika. It supplanted the acoustic guitar. The balalaika is still used by performers of folk music.
There were a couple of a accidents involving young nationalists trying to burn down MacDonalds. At least one of them was connected with Amercians bombing Yugoslavia.

ESPECIALLY ANTI-CHECHEN FEELINGS AS WELL AS PREJUDICED TOWARD AFRICANS WHO WERE WELCOMED WITH OPEN ARMS BY THE BOLSHEVIK REGIME AND GIVEN SCHOLARSHIPS AT THE UNIVERSITIES.

Yes, but as I said before it has nothing to do with the US.

[blaise]

M. said:

And less hostility.

I don't think this is nearly as important a factor as the shrinking buying power of the dollar. The only European country that is specifically resented by Americans for its people as much as for its leaders is France. There are several underlying reasons. The foremost is that Americans feel the French are ungrateful for the role of the US in rescuing them from domination by the Germans in two World wars, an objective achieved at the sacrifice of many American lives. (A corollary to that is the cost to the US in inheriting their problems in Indo-Chine.) The second is the pompous French attitude about their language and culture and their laughable posture as a faux nuclear superpower. Americans (except for some Holocaust survivors and their descendants) have generally forgiven the Germans for the atrocities of the past. Americans would still like to visit Italy, Spain, Greece, and the Scandinavian lands, but there is a discernible (although mild) boycott of things French. Ask the French vintners if they don't feel the sting.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

Blaise said:

I don't think this is nearly as important a factor as the shrinking buying power of the dollar. The only European country that is specifically resented by Americans for its people as much as for its leaders is France. There are several underlying reasons. The foremost is that Americans feel the French are ungrateful for the role of the US in rescuing them from domination by the Germans in two World wars, an objective achieved at the sacrifice of many American lives. (A corollary to that is the cost to the US in inheriting their problems in Indo-Chine.) The second is the pompous French attitude about their language and culture and their laughable posture as a faux nuclear superpower. Americans (except for some Holocaust survivors and their descendants) have generally forgiven the Germans for the atrocities of the past. Americans would still like to visit Italy, Spain, Greece, and the Scandinavian lands, but there is a discernible (although mild) boycott of things French. Ask the French vintners if they don't feel the sting.

This is not a value judgement, but rather an observation.

Canadians like to be liked. They go out of their way to be nice and helpful. Some of this is based on the friendly, non-interventionist, helpful nature of Canadians.
Americans don't care as much if they are liked or not. They value being right more than being liked. (Davey Crockett, "Be sure you're right, then go ahead") They are more selfconfident and less insecure, eh?
If you are a 5,000 pound elephant, you can't keep apologizing for stepping on your neighbors flower bed. If you bomb najaf, you can't worry about hitting the occasional milk factory. If you don't bomb anybody, you can be a nice guy and criticize everybody who is a bomber.

Which is better? Neither is better, they are just different.

I'm not trying to inflame anyones passion, but I do see differences. Vive la difference?

[Skilly]

Habs_fan_in_LA said:

The Americans response to Europes hostility is:

We don't have to go to France, we have the original Disneyland here.
We don't have to go to Italy, we have the Venecian and Belagio in Las Vegas.
We don't need no stinkin Spain, we have Mexico.

France's response: "We gave you the #1 symbol of your independance and your nation. We want her back. Ingrates"

Italy's response: "Your names might end in alot of vowles, but you are not Italiano!"

Spain's response: "The rain, in Wayne (Co.), falls mainly on the Des Plaines"

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

Skilly said:

France's response: "We gave you the #1 symbol of your independance and your nation. We want her back. Ingrates"

Italy's response: "Your names might end in alot of vowles, but you are not Italiano!"

Spain's response: "The rain, in Wayne (Co.), falls mainly on the Des Plaines"

France:

Eiffel Tower; A monument built for victorious armies to parade through. (Mostly German)
Tour De France; A bicycle race in a country so small that when the racers get up a full head of steam they need to enter neighboring countries just to turn around. (Won annually by Americans)
Disneyland Europe; The French are the only country that can mess up a sure-fire moneymaking franchise.
Wine; French wines are grown on imported US vines (after the destruction of French vines by disease) and the best taste almost as good as the cheapest napa Valley originals they copied.
Cheese; French cheese smells so bad that............... (you fill it in)
Bridget Bardot; my favorite actress in her youth (and mine too) now a Baby Jane lookalike protecting seals from Newfies trying to rebuild their fisheries.

Spain:

Home to the French army as they await the Americans to do the fighting. ;D

Germany:

The trains are always on time. Next stop Aushwitz.

Come on guys, don't take this seriously!

We stereotype Bush, Martin and Arafat. None are as bad as we pretend and none of them are as good as we wish either.

The US was Frances' friend when they liberated Paris and when they fought the British for independance in America.
What Canada called Empire Loyalists, Americans called traitors.
Russia was our ally against Germany in WW II and our enemy in the cold war.
China was our friend against Japan and Japan against China when the pages of the callendar changed.
Saddam was (ugh) our ally and then pariah.
Times change and I'm sure that years from now the US and France will again be friends.