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Post by franko on Dec 2, 2006 18:01:46 GMT -5
You read it here first: I think it's not enough, but [Ignatieff] stands for his ideas against the majority of his party and could lose the leadership race for that. I think he realizes he needs the Quebec vote to carry the day, but I don't think it will be enough. He has too much baggage (ie: what kind of Canadian doesn't live in Canada for 30 years then comes back only to try to be the leader of a political party). I think that Rae's baggage may drag him down as well. As much as he tries to distance himself from it, his NDP past sticks with and haunts him. Dion may just slide up the middle and win.
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Post by Toronthab on Dec 2, 2006 19:54:36 GMT -5
You read it here first: I think he realizes he needs the Quebec vote to carry the day, but I don't think it will be enough. He has too much baggage (ie: what kind of Canadian doesn't live in Canada for 30 years then comes back only to try to be the leader of a political party). I think that Rae's baggage may drag him down as well. As much as he tries to distance himself from it, his NDP past sticks with and haunts him. Dion may just slide up the middle and win. Good call Franko. Looks like Kennedy's move capped it for Dion.
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Post by princelh on Dec 2, 2006 19:57:42 GMT -5
Typical Liberal response. Another easterner from Quebec. Hummm....Chretien, Martin and now Dion.
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Dec 2, 2006 20:06:42 GMT -5
Dion and a pack of Belmonts.
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Post by Skilly on Dec 2, 2006 20:08:06 GMT -5
Typical Liberal response. Another easterner from Quebec. Hummm....Chretien, Martin and now Dion. *sigh* ... Paul Martin was from Ontario, not Quebec The last ten liberal leaders. Stephane Dion - Quebec City, Quebec Bill Graham - Montreal, Quebec Paul Martin - Windsor, Ontario Jean Chretien - Shawinigan, Quebec Herb Gray - Windsor, Ontario John Turner - Surrey, England Pierre Trudeau - Montreal, Quebec Lester Pearson - Newtonbrook, Ontario Louis St. Laurent - Compton, Quebec William Lyon Mackenzie King - Berlin, Ontario Seems to me it alternates between Ontario and Quebec .....
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Post by JeffR on Dec 2, 2006 20:10:19 GMT -5
Typical Liberal response. Another easterner from Quebec. Hummm....Chretien, Martin and now Dion. I love general statements like that. For better or worse those were the choices. Why does it have to matter so much to people where somebody comes from. Seriously, too much is made of this.
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Post by Skilly on Dec 2, 2006 20:21:29 GMT -5
Typical Liberal response. Another easterner from Quebec. Hummm....Chretien, Martin and now Dion. I live general statements like that. For better or worse those were the choices. Why does it have to matter so much to people where somebody comes from. Seriously, too much is made of this. Yep .... I mean the candidates were: Michael Ignatieff - Toronto, Ontario Bob Rae - Ottawa, Ontario Ken Dryden - Hamilton, Ontario Stephane Dion - Quebec City , Quebec Martha Finlay - Toronto, Ontario Gerard Kennedy - The Pas, Manitoba Scott Brison - Windsor, Nova Scotia Joe Volpe - Puglia, Italy I guess he really wanted Kennedy to win .... ... and that is even East of West.
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Post by princelh on Dec 2, 2006 21:01:10 GMT -5
Paul Martin - Seat was in Quebec.
Typical response? It is because it continues to be a Liberal policy. I saw no-one running for the Liberal Party, west of Ontario.
Past Liberal Leaders Province Elected From:
Stephane Dion - Quebec Paul Martin - Quebec Jean Chretien- Quebec John Turner - British Columbia Pierre Trudeau - Quebec
Liberal Leadership Contestants Seats:
Michael Ignatieff - Ontario Bob Rae - Ontario Ken Dryden - Ontario Stephane Dion - Quebec Martha Finlay - Ontario Gerard Kennedy - Ontario Scott Brison - Nova Scotia Joe Volpe - Ontario
The point being, let another part of the country govern for a change. No wonder the people of the west are pissed at the Liberal Party.
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Post by Cranky on Dec 2, 2006 22:38:26 GMT -5
I like Dion's federalist views but I hate his green stance. The quest ion is....does he come along with all the Liberal baggage? I can't shake this feeling that the old guard has their claws into him.
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Post by PTH on Dec 2, 2006 23:05:03 GMT -5
I like Dion's federalist views but I hate his green stance. The quest ion is....does he come along with all the Liberal baggage? I can't shake this feeling that the old guard has their claws into him. I like his green views, but can't stand his federalist stance nor his general arrogance concerning Quebec. The guy is really, really hated with a passion in Quebec. I think the arrogance might not be as visible in his second language, but to me he's just as detestable and incurs the same extreme increase in heartrate as seeing Tucker score an OT goal on the Habs would.... No way I can vote Liberal now.
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Post by princelh on Dec 2, 2006 23:28:24 GMT -5
Just another elitist candidate from Central Canada.
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Post by franko on Dec 2, 2006 23:58:27 GMT -5
I like Dion's federalist views but I hate his green stance. The quest ion is....does he come along with all the Liberal baggage? I can't shake this feeling that the old guard has their claws into him. Which green stance? The one that says "we need to make changes", suggests cahnges, and does nothing, or the one that signs the Kyoto Accord and gets tough on envirnomental problems by promising to buy billions of dollars of credits from an exempt-from-Kyoto China?
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Post by franko on Dec 3, 2006 0:10:08 GMT -5
Paul Martin - Seat was in Quebec. Typical response? It is because it continues to be a Liberal policy. I saw no-one running for the Liberal Party, west of Ontario. Perhaps that's becauue so few Liberals are elected west of Ontario. Reversing the trend, (Progressive) Conservative leaders of the past: * John George Diefenbaker * Robert Stanfield * Joe Clark * Erik Nielsen * Brian Mulroney * Kim Campbell [Reform party started; tired of Central Canada "rulership", yet Stanfield was from Nova Scotia -- only Mulroney was from "CC". * Jean Charest * Elsie Wayne * Joe Clark * Peter MacKay Pickings are so slim that Clark was leader twice! It isn't the people of the west who don't vote Liberal, only the people of Alberta. Manitoba and Saskatchewan are swing provinces.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 3, 2006 0:20:06 GMT -5
I don't know anything about Dion, guys. His politics is Liberal, granted, but what's this guy's story?
Cheers.
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Dec 3, 2006 8:05:36 GMT -5
I don't know anything about Dion, guys. His politics is Liberal, granted, but what's this guy's story? Cheers. He's a wanderer who had his heart broken by a runaround chick named Sue. Seriously though, here's a good backgrounder: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St%C3%A9phane_Dion
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Post by jkr on Dec 3, 2006 8:50:45 GMT -5
Typical Liberal response. Another easterner from Quebec. Hummm....Chretien, Martin and now Dion. *sigh* ... Paul Martin was from Ontario, not Quebec ..... That's true Skilly ( born in Windsor I think) but he is very closely identified with Montreal.
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Post by princelh on Dec 3, 2006 10:41:46 GMT -5
Where the Progressive Conservatives went wrong was when they became the Progressive only party. They went too left of centre and strayed in to Liberal territory. Through a succession of Progressive leaders, the Conservatives in the party decided that they'd had enough and started Reform. For some reason, people in the east looked at them as parriah. They had a few wing nuts, but what party didn't? They just got more bad press, thanks to the Ottawa Press Gallery, that was a glorified Liberal propaganda machine. Some of their idea's were a bit radical but workable. The Progressive Conservatives, or what was left, without real Conservatives, died a traitors death under Joe Clark. Joe even sided with the Liberals when the Reforem/Alliance was the Official Opposition. Hence the merger of what was left of the old PC's and the Alliance/Reform. The true Conservatives are now back in charge of the Grand old Party of Sir John A. A real alternative to the deep rooted Liberal machine that has became corrupt and still has the old boys network running the show. This latest Liberal Leadership race changed nothing.
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Post by Skilly on Dec 3, 2006 11:50:58 GMT -5
Where the Progressive Conservatives went wrong was when they became the Progressive only party. They went too left of centre and strayed in to Liberal territory. Through a succession of Progressive leaders, the Conservatives in the party decided that they'd had enough and started Reform. For some reason, people in the east looked at them as parriah. They had a few wing nuts, but what party didn't? They just got more bad press, thanks to the Ottawa Press Gallery, that was a glorified Liberal propaganda machine. Some of their idea's were a bit radical but workable. The Progressive Conservatives, or what was left, without real Conservatives, died a traitors death under Joe Clark. Joe even sided with the Liberals when the Reforem/Alliance was the Official Opposition. Hence the merger of what was left of the old PC's and the Alliance/Reform. The true Conservatives are now back in charge of the Grand old Party of Sir John A. A real alternative to the deep rooted Liberal machine that has became corrupt and still has the old boys network running the show. This latest Liberal Leadership race changed nothing. Grand ol Party? That, my friend is the GOP, which is the Republican Party in the USA. I don't think anyone wants to be to closely associated with that. People in the east looked at the Reform party as parriah? hmmmmm I wonder why? Calling us "a culture of defeatists", saying they will eliminate EI, then the topper when Harper had everyone in the East convinced he was different than the Reform party he says a week before going into the election where the Liberals won a minority ...... "the Conservative Party is and always will be a party of Western Canadians for Western Canadians with Western Canadian values" .... the result Chretien wins almost every seat in the east. He did a much better job of keeping his pie-hole shut in the election against Martin.
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Post by franko on Dec 3, 2006 12:35:31 GMT -5
Where the Progressive Conservatives went wrong was when they became the Progressive only party. They went too left of centre and strayed in to Liberal territory. The PCs did not move "left of centre", but closer to the centre, which is good politics. Most Canadians are centrist; to win their votes a party must move there (or they wind up in forever-minority status). Note that the Liberals under Chretien moved slightly to the right to win the swing vote; once in power moved back into the centre (disagree? look at Mr. Martin's term as finance minister -- Conservative budgets if ever there were any). You are suggesting, then, that "real Conservatives" live in Alberta and all the others are only pretenders? No, the problem is that westerners Albertas PCs could read the handwriting on the wall. They knew that Kim Campbell was going to do nothing (read: lose big time), and they felt disenfranchised from the Eastern leadership. Their slogan was " Alberta The west wants in". Oh, and some of their ideas did indeed sound wacko -- happens to a new party. Again, you suggest that the West has true Conservatives, while the East does not. Too broad a generalization (just like the generalization that Reformers/Alliance are all wackos).
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Post by PTH on Dec 3, 2006 12:37:43 GMT -5
Anyone who can read French should read this, from a La Presse columnist - (a Federalist to boot) www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20061203/CPBLOGUES07/61202078/0/FRONTPAGEIn essence, he's saying that anglo Canada has no idea to what extent Dion is hated in Quebec. He can't even get along with the Quebec Liberals when discussing the environment, and as a pro-environment strong on national unity, if he can't get along discussing Kyoto with federalists in Quebec he's in trouble. The Federal government can afford to have problems with the PQ - after all, they're not interested in making the country work as it is now. But when Ottawa can't get along with those who want to stay in the country, you're in trouble...
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Post by franko on Dec 3, 2006 12:41:14 GMT -5
Anyone who can read French should read this, from a La Presse columnist - (a Federalist to boot) www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20061203/CPBLOGUES07/61202078/0/FRONTPAGEIn essence, he's saying that anglo Canada has no idea to what extent Dion is hated in Quebec. He can't even get along with the Quebec Liberals when discussing the environment, and as a pro-environment strong on national unity, if he can't get along discussing Kyoto with federalists in Quebec he's in trouble. The Federal government can afford to have problems with the PQ - after all, they're not interested in making the country work as it is now. But when Ottawa can't get along with those who want to stay in the country, you're in trouble... It won't take long for TROC to find out -- the Conservative spinners will be pointing it out at every opportunity. Have a friend (big Liberal supporter) who is shocked Dion won (thought Rae would, but says he didn't realize that the hate for Rae is still so large). Predicts this opens the door for the Green Party to win at least a couple of seats.
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Post by PTH on Dec 3, 2006 12:51:47 GMT -5
Anyone who can read French should read this, from a La Presse columnist - (a Federalist to boot) www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20061203/CPBLOGUES07/61202078/0/FRONTPAGEIn essence, he's saying that anglo Canada has no idea to what extent Dion is hated in Quebec. He can't even get along with the Quebec Liberals when discussing the environment, and as a pro-environment strong on national unity, if he can't get along discussing Kyoto with federalists in Quebec he's in trouble. The Federal government can afford to have problems with the PQ - after all, they're not interested in making the country work as it is now. But when Ottawa can't get along with those who want to stay in the country, you're in trouble... It won't take long for TROC to find out -- the Conservative spinners will be pointing it out at every opportunity. Have a friend (big Liberal supporter) who is shocked Dion won (thought Rae would, but says he didn't realize that the hate for Rae is still so large). Predicts this opens the door for the Green Party to win at least a couple of seats. Well, I doubt the Greens will actually win seats - the potentially Liberal vote will be split between the Bloc and the Conservatives, depending on whether a voter is more green than federalist, or vice-versa.
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Post by princelh on Dec 3, 2006 18:03:29 GMT -5
There were a lot of people in Ontario that voted Reform and Alliance. It was just vote splitting that kept the Liberals winning under Chretien. That fool, Joe Clark, did nothing but perpetuate Liberal victories, because he couldn't grasp real Conservatism.
The Grand Old Party, in the U.S., is indeed Republican. It really isn't the oldest party, being formed in1860. The Democrats have been around longer. The grand old party of Canada, was indeed the Conservative Party. The first party, the Party of Sir John A. MacDonald. It went away for 50 years, when they joined with the Progressive Party. It is good to have a real choice, in Canada, again. Mulroney was not a real Conservative, but more a progressive. He was part of the Establishment in this Country that kept the power in the hands of Bankers, Multinationals and Investment Brokers. In the eyes of Mulroney, and those of Chretien/Martin/Dion, the Canadian public were no more than sheep for shearing. Good riddance to that bunch of control freaks. Vive les Conservaters Libre!
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Post by PTH on Dec 5, 2006 23:51:31 GMT -5
www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20061205/CPOPINIONS/612050903/5034/CPOPINIONSIn short, us sovereignists need Dion to win. In short: One country, two nations. Nation A and Nation B. Nation A doesn't want Nation B, doesn't want it as a Nation. Nation B is split in 3: The B1 third would want to separate, but can't, precisely because it's just a third. The B3 third shares the language and culture of nation A and doesn't really care about what we're talking about right now. Between the two, the B2 third, which would like to stick with Canada, but as a nation, or at the very least as a distinct society. However, as we just said, nation A doesn't want anything distinct. They want Saskatchewan or nothing. That's the sentiment that led to Dion becoming head of his party and hopefully head of the country soon.
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Post by princelh on Dec 7, 2006 0:06:50 GMT -5
Dion will be crushed and the Liberals will find another Central Canadian to take up the battle against the Evil Empire of the west.(Liberal-speak) Maybe the Liberals need to re-evaluate what a Liberal really is and even possibly spring for a copy of Websters Dictionary. The current Liberal mindset is not in accordance with Websters. A walk in the wilderness is in order.
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Post by franko on Dec 7, 2006 10:28:27 GMT -5
Fearless prediction:
In the late spring election (May), the country will [approximately] vote as follows:
Atlantic Quebec Ontario Man-Sask Alberta WestCoast North
114 Liberal 113 Conservative * 47 Bloc 29 NDP 2 Green **
* Liberal and Conservative numbers are interchangeable, depending on the campaign. **Ottawa Centre and one BC seat.
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Post by Skilly on Dec 7, 2006 10:47:41 GMT -5
Fearless prediction: In the late spring election (May), the country will [approximately] vote as follows: Atlantic Quebec Ontario Man-Sask Alberta WestCoast North114 Liberal113 Conservative *47 Bloc29 NDP2 Green *** Liberal and Conservative numbers are interchangeable, depending on the campaign. **Ottawa Centre and one BC seat. I call tell you right now if an Election was held today Newfoundland would be all red. Those two Tory strongholds in St. John's will even go red, if the equalization formula includes non-renewalable resources. Harper made it crystal clear when he was here that he was going to remove them from it for every province .. there was no mention of "preference" ... and it will be played over and over and over and over and over and over across the country, paid for by the Government of Newfoundland. Danny (a Tory) has already started his cross country campaigning against Steven Harper, and Lorne Calvert has hopped on his wagon.
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Post by Cranky on Dec 8, 2006 11:07:17 GMT -5
I like Dion's federalist views but I hate his green stance. The quest ion is....does he come along with all the Liberal baggage? I can't shake this feeling that the old guard has their claws into him. Which green stance? The one that says "we need to make changes", suggests cahnges, and does nothing, or the one that signs the Kyoto Accord and gets tough on envirnomental problems by promising to buy billions of dollars of credits from an exempt-from-Kyoto China? Any stance that has green in it is bad enough for me. I am ALL for eliminating toxins and hormones from our foods but the "sky uis fallling if we don't live in caves" bs is getting to me. Even my wife started spewing about "The Hydrogen Economy" she read about in the Toronto Rags...err Star. Threatened to burn her at the stake to get rid of those demons....... Oh wait, did you just say buy "pollution credits"from China? From the fastest growing polluter on the PLANET? Do you have a link? I need a good heart attack inducing laugh......
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Post by franko on Dec 8, 2006 11:35:23 GMT -5
Which green stance? The one that says "we need to make changes", suggests cahnges, and does nothing, or the one that signs the Kyoto Accord and gets tough on envirnomental problems by promising to buy billions of dollars of credits from an exempt-from-Kyoto China? Oh wait, did you just say buy "pollution credits"from China? From the fastest growing polluter on the PLANET? Do you have a link? I need a good heart attack inducing laugh...... Sorry, I can't find a link and I don't have time to search right now. My version: Canada is a signee to the Kyoto Protocal, and a major polluter that has promised to reduce emissions, China is a signee to the Kyoto Protocal but as a "developing nation" (yup, you read right) is excluded from the need to reduce, and is therefore in a position to sell emissions credits. Canada needs credits; ergo . . . I may be mistaken in this, but I think not. Rather than spending billions of dollars on cleaning up the mess we are going to invest billions of dollars in China's industries . . . and have a worse mess! But we'll feel good because we are doing something, no?
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Post by Cranky on Dec 9, 2006 6:27:09 GMT -5
Rather than spending billions of dollars on cleaning up the mess we are going to invest billions of dollars in China's industries . . . and have a worse mess! But we'll feel good because we are doing something, no? Sheep People want easy solutions. Politicians are in the business of supplying easy solutions. IF the carbon threat is real (and I say IF), there are REAL solutions to it. However, they are not easy and they wont be popular. Politicians are not in the game to be unpopular or to rile the electorate. This is why I am afraid of people like Dion. They will wear the environmental cape like some saviour crusader and in the end, they will provide expensive and worthless solutions. Are you still supporting me for Emperor? Emperor Cranky has a certain ummm..sexy ring to it.
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