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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 11, 2007 11:01:04 GMT -5
I'm really trying, honest. I know we have our murders, sociopaths and pyscopaths in Christendom. But to kill you blood for not wearing a piece of clothing is just plain wrong. Very hard to post this. Dad charged in teen's death[/size] Hijab can divide families The suggestion of violent disputes between a 16-year-old girl in Mississauga and her father over her desire to show her hair and live a "normal" lifestyle raises questions about tensions between parents and children in the Muslim community. A 16-year-old girl is dead and her father has been charged with murder after an attack in a Mississauga home. Aqsa Parvez, a student at Applewood Heights Secondary School, had been on life support in hospital since yesterday morning. Police went to the family's two-storey home on Longhorn Trail about 8 a.m. yesterday after receiving a 911 call in which a man allegedly claimed to have killed his daughter. Paramedics found Aqsa with a faint pulse and rushed her to hospital. She was later transferred to a Toronto hospital and placed on life support. Peel police said this morning that she died overnight. Friends at the victim’s school said she feared her father and had argued over her desire to shun the hijab, a traditional shoulder-length head scarf worn by females in devout Muslim families. Homicide investigators had been standing by, as it soon became clear the young girl wouldn't survive the attack. Muhammad Parvez, 57, has been remanded in custody and was to make his first court appearance today in a Brampton court. The victim's brother, 26-year-old Waqas Parvez, was also arrested on a charge of obstructing police. Neighbours described the family as very private and said several members from three generations have lived in the two-storey home, near Hurontario St. and Eglinton Ave., for just over two years. School chums say Aqsa had been arguing with her devout Muslim family for months over whether she should wear the hijab, a traditional shoulder-length headscarf. Pal Ebonie Mitchell, 16, and other friends said Aqsa still wore the hijab to school last year, but rebelled against dressing in it this fall. They said she would leave home wearing the traditional garment and loose clothing, but would often change into tighter garments at school. She would change back for the bus trip home. "Sometimes she even changed her whole outfit in the washroom at school," Mitchell said. The teen was known to her classmates and Facebook friends as Axa. She posted several pictures of herself on the website in colourful clothes and accessories. At Aqsa's high school, friends gathered in groups yesterday, struggling to come to grips with what happened and lamenting how she had quarrelled with her father to the point that she recently moved out to live with a friend. "She said she was always scared of her dad, she was always scared of her brother ... and she's not scared of nobody," said classmate Ashley Garbutt, 16. "She didn't want to go home ... to the point where she actually wanted to go to shelters." Friends said the root of her problems was a desire to blend in with friends at school, to wear the fashionable clothes she liked to buy on trips to Toronto's garment district, where she went with friends just last month. "She liked fashion," said Mitchell. "We went to different stores; she was shopping; she bought lots of clothes." "She loved clothes, she loved shopping and she loved taking pictures of herself," classmate Dominiquia Holmes-Thompson, 16, said outside the school as friends sobbed at the news. "She just wanted to show her beauty. She just wanted freedom, freedom from her parents." "She just wanted to dress like us, just like a normal person," said Holmes-Thompson. "She was a very kind person, she was really nice; everybody loved her." Friend Shianne Phillips, 16, said she last spoke with Aqsa on Friday. "She was crying and she was like ‘I'm really scared to go home. I don't know what I'm going to do.' And that was it," Phillips said. [/i] The linkMerry Christmas "Axa" ... sincerely. |
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Post by cigarviper on Dec 11, 2007 11:44:03 GMT -5
Sickening.
I am reminded of words spoken by former Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura:
"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business."
He has withdrawn from political life and now resides with his family in Mexico.
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Post by clear observer on Dec 11, 2007 12:01:25 GMT -5
Heart-wrenching.
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Post by franko on Dec 11, 2007 12:26:03 GMT -5
Dis, I don't understand things like this either. It doesn't make sense to me.
Sure I have strong beliefs and don't apologize for them.
But I think that the organization behind religion (rather than organized religion) is problematic. Community is important, and churches/synagogues/mosques/etc offer that. And opposed to Mr. Ventura's assessment, people need people [read We Really Do Need Each Other, by Reuben Welch] -- religious groups [and non-religious groups -- and Habs chat groups] just offer like-minded people a place of encouragement.
Religion(s) offer hope. Some [Christopher Hitchens et al] suggest this is false hope, or self-delusion. I accept his rejection of religious thought as his right; too bad he rejects my acceptance as a possibility. Talk about dogmatism! But I digress.
If there is not love, acceptance, forgiveness, and tolerance (tolerance meaning I disagree with your point of view but can still talk with you, rather than the anti-tolerance tolerance seeping in and pervading our society that says "tolerance means that you accept what I think/do/say and if you disagree you are a close-minded buffoon") in issues of ethics, morality, and in this case religious observance, then it is institutional religiosity and not religion at its core.
Funny . . . some people label me as a fundamentalist because I hold strong values, while the fundamentalist would say that I am far from what I should be because I don't hold strong enough ethical [read: lifestyle] values for everyone else.
Probably getting far from the initial subject matter, but [forgive me for quoting the Bible] James says "Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. " James 1:27 (NKJV) The fundis focus on the "keeping unspotted". I see that we are responsible to people around us (which I guess means sticking our noses in other peoples' business and helping them if we can).
fwiw, we raised our children to make decisions on their own -- to think for themselves -- to read and to know what they believe and why . . . and then, even when we disagreed with some of their actions and decisions, supported them no matter what. Which, I guess, is why they feel free to keep moving back home when they realize what a mess they are making with their lives . . . to work out their messes before going on with life. .
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Dec 11, 2007 12:28:41 GMT -5
He simply killed his daughter.
It's not like he did anything really bad like name a Teddy bear.
Now the bleeding hearts will tell us WE need to be more tolerant.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 11, 2007 15:17:46 GMT -5
Dis, I don't understand things like this either. It doesn't make sense to me. Sure I have strong beliefs and don't apologize for them. And you shouldn't have to apologize, Franko. What makes me distraught is the inability or reluctance of religions to recognize the beliefs of one another. I honestly believe that if one has faith one has a true gift. What mystifies me about this is how faith is used by the father to substantiate whatever course of action he decided to take. In this case faith fails to be a gift, but rather a means to defer responsibility or accountability for one's actions. Have to run. Will pick this up later. Cheers. |
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Post by franko on Dec 11, 2007 16:04:01 GMT -5
Sure I have strong beliefs and don't apologize for them. What makes me distraught is the inability or reluctance of religions to recognize the beliefs of one another. This is another matter entirely. The problem is a confrontation of beliefs. The three major monotheistic faiths, for example, are all at odds with one another, even though they come from the same faith strain. Judaism recognizes Jesus as a prophet/rabbi, but certainly not the Messiah that Christianity holds Him to be; Islam does the same. Islam recognizes Judaism and Christianity as entities developing understanding of God/Allah, but only a beginning: "There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his Prophet". Christianity recognizes Jesus as the Christ [Messiah], "the way, the truth, and the life". I can recognize the belief systems of other, but I do not need to accept them (that is where dialouge comes in). Unfortunately "my way is the only way; die heretic" is too often the response to different belief systems. I honestly believe that if one has faith one has a true gift. What mystifies me about this is how faith is used by the father to substantiate whatever course of action he decided to take. In this case faith fails to be a gift, but rather a means to defer responsibility or accountability for one's actions. Indeed. "God told me to do it" is often merely a self-blinding excuse for horrific actions and attitudes. Unacceptable, whatever religious persuasion. |
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 11, 2007 17:44:09 GMT -5
We're all born....we all live....we all die.... And in the scope of time, it's a blip. But....my god is better than your god......  I've never gotten that, and I don't think I ever will. The power of brainwashing, plain and simple. |
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Post by Cranky on Dec 11, 2007 18:27:55 GMT -5
How long will it be before SOME of the Muslim community rise up to support him?
This guy should serve life without any chance of parole to drive home the message that in CANADA we have absolutely no tolerance for this. I would of preffered the death sentance.
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 11, 2007 18:39:46 GMT -5
I'm ignorant of the Muslim factions.....but isn't well-known that some may interpret tenets of Islam to be totally male dominant to the point of women being virtually worthless? I mean, in this case, even her brother tried to obstruct police.
Is this a part of Sharia law that some may interpret in this way?
Sorry for my ignorance....I could look it up very easily. Just thought I'd get some answers here.
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Post by Cranky on Dec 11, 2007 19:16:18 GMT -5
I'm ignorant of the Muslim factions.....but isn't well-known that some are totally male dominant to the point of women being virtually worthless? I mean, in this case, even her brother tried to obstruct police. Is this a part of Sharia law? Sorry for my ignorance....I could look it up very easily. Just thought I'd get some answers here. Sharia Law is where a bunch of man become judge and jury and tell everybody that God gave them the right. If Sharia Law gets anywhere near acceptence by vote sucking, b*tt l*cking politicians, in an act total fustration/bewildermant, I will start donating to extremist right wing groups. |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Dec 11, 2007 22:38:31 GMT -5
I'm ignorant of the Muslim factions.....but isn't well-known that some are totally male dominant to the point of women being virtually worthless? I mean, in this case, even her brother tried to obstruct police. Is this a part of Sharia law? Sorry for my ignorance....I could look it up very easily. Just thought I'd get some answers here. Sharia Law is where a bunch of man become judge and jury and tell everybody that God gave them the right. If Sharia Law gets anywhere near acceptence by vote sucking, b*tt l*cking politicians, in an act total fustration/bewildermant, I will start donating to extremist right wing groups. I'm an extreme right winger. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 11, 2007 22:53:56 GMT -5
Sickening. I am reminded of words spoken by former Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura: "Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business." This situation makes a case for Ventura. However, while I endorse his right to say it, I strongly disagree with the content. But, that's another issue altogether. Well, there's enough virtual-Catholicism to substantiate his opinion there as well. Guess the US of A wasn't good enough. Cheers. |
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Post by Skilly on Dec 12, 2007 7:37:21 GMT -5
How many people have died through-out history "in the name of religion"? One is too many ... too bad the actual number is in the billions.
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert Einstein
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." - Blaise Pascal
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 12, 2007 8:36:25 GMT -5
Thanks for those quotes Skilly.
For an interpretation or tenet of a religion to bend a man's mind to the point of strangling his own daughter....
Wonder what the mother thinks of this....if she's allowed to think at all.....
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Post by BadCompany on Dec 12, 2007 9:26:26 GMT -5
I am not a religious man, but I still think "religion" gets a bad rap. Yes, horrible things are done in the name of religion, and will continue to be done in the name of religion, but how many good things are also done by those who strongly believe? How many charities, hospitals, and aid foundations are run by people of faith? In Montreal alone, we have the Old Brewery Mission, Father Emmit Johns, the combined Jewish Appeal, the Jewish General Hospital, the Grey Nuns, the list goes on and on. Every Church, Temple and Mosque runs their own community help programs, food drives, youth groups etc.. Food banks, hospices, shelters, community centers, hotlines, you name it. And that's just locally. How about all the charity foundations working in Africa, or Asia, or South America?
You do not have to be religious to do good works. But I'd be willing to bet that religious groups are MUCH more involved in "good works" than those who are not religious. Religion may be the driving force behind much that is bad, but it is also the driving force behind much that is good. Perhaps much more so.
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Post by clear observer on Dec 12, 2007 9:34:27 GMT -5
I am not a religious man, but I still think "religion" gets a bad rap. Yes, horrible things are done in the name of religion, and will continue to be done in the name of religion, but how many good things are also done by those who strongly believe? How many charities, hospitals, and aid foundations are run by people of faith? In Montreal alone, we have the Old Brewery Mission, Father Emmit Johns, the combined Jewish Appeal, the Jewish General Hospital, the Grey Nuns, the list goes on and on. Every Church, Temple and Mosque runs their own community help programs, food drives, youth groups etc.. Food banks, hospices, shelters, community centers, hotlines, you name it. And that's just locally. How about all the charity foundations working in Africa, or Asia, or South America? You do not have to be religious to do good works. But I'd be willing to bet that religious groups are MUCH more involved in "good works" than those who are not religious. Religion may be the driving force behind much that is bad, but it is also the driving force behind much that is good. Perhaps much more so. Does salvation of millions outweigh the salvation of billions? Stay tuned. |
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Post by franko on Dec 12, 2007 11:18:11 GMT -5
Does salvation of millions outweigh the salvation of billions? Stay tuned. Could you explain? I don't understand. |
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Post by franko on Dec 12, 2007 11:20:34 GMT -5
The power of brainwashing, plain and simple. No, the power of belief. Which is just as strong in non-religious circles. How many millions were killed, for example, in communist Russia/USSR? China? All in the name of anti-religious pogroms. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 12, 2007 11:21:46 GMT -5
A 2nd degree murder charge is pending. Hijab teen's father appears in court
Father charged and brother's role still being investigated
By ROB LAMBERTI -- Sun Media
The Toronto Sun
The father of the 16-year-old girl Aqsa Parvez was remanded in custody for a bail hearing Jan. 29.
Muhammad Parvez stood quietly in an orange jumpsuit in the prisoner's docket in Brampton courtroon 101 this morning and mumbled a barely audible "yes" when asked if he understood why he was being charged.
His lawyer, Joseph Ciraco, said he expects his client to be charged with second-degree murder. The charge has not been finalized by police detectives.
The 57-year-old man is accused of killing his daughter. The teen's friends say she rebelled against her father's religious expectations.
A request to monitor Parvez's heart condition while in custody was granted by the court.The linkWould like to hear him say he's sorry. It would prove two things: * that he'll live in torment for the rest of his life, and * he's guilty. Hope he does not make bail. Cheers. |
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Post by franko on Dec 12, 2007 11:27:47 GMT -5
I'm ignorant of the Muslim factions.....but isn't well-known that some may interpret tenets of Islam to be totally male dominant to the point of women being virtually worthless? Yes, in some societies women are mere chattel . . . or maybe cattle? Something bought and sold and used and abused. Sadly, this case illustrates just how "important" women are understood to be to some: A Saudi court on Tuesday more than doubled the number of lashes that a female rape victim was sentenced to last year after her lawyer appealed the original sentence. The decision, which many lawyers found shocking even by Saudi standards of justice, has provoked a rare public debate about the treatment of women here.
The victim’s lawyer, Abdulrahman al-Lahem, a well-known human rights activist, drew the court’s ire because of his strong public criticism of the handling of the case. He has called his client’s conviction unjust and said the sentences of the seven men who raped her were too lenient. She is am member of the Shiite minority; she has been charged under a strict Wahhabi interpretation of Islamic law. ___ Not saying that in some cultures Christianity, Judaism, animism, or anything else is "better" . . . just answering the question. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 12, 2007 11:31:53 GMT -5
How long will it be before SOME of the Muslim community rise up to support him? This guy should serve life without any chance of parole to drive home the message that in CANADA we have absolutely no tolerance for this. I would of preffered the death sentance. I'm hoping he either doesn't qualify for bail or fails to make bail. I'm fully supportive of him being charged to the fullest extent of our laws. And should he still have no remorse after his teunure in Crowbar Hotel I would also support revoking his citizenship and deporting him. A death sentence would draw those Islamic extremists out, HA. Yet, by their own beliefs, an eye for an eye is perfectly acceptable, so executing him (if our laws permitted that) would be justified. Yet, what's worse is, if we were to execute this man something tells me that it's possible his country of origin would most likely find the nearest incarcerated Canadian and execute him/her on some trumped up charge. Again, an eye for an eye. This whole topic really isn't good for my temperment right now. I'm getting kind of extreme myself. Later |
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Post by franko on Dec 12, 2007 11:34:31 GMT -5
Interesting quotes, Skilly . . .
Indeed we shouldn’t need religious encouragement to do good to our neighbour; unfortunately, unless there is some motivated self-interest many people won’t do a thing for someone else. “Community”? Takes second place in our capitalistic, me-first world.
I have some small disagreement with Pascal’s conviction – religion is often the excuse, not the reason. I wish I remembered where I read that wars are usually fought over land, but religion give credence to the reason for the fight {“my God said . . .” – how do you argue with that – soon the real reason – I want you land – is forgotten]
As to Weinberg, I’d like his definition of good and evil. Robert Latimer: good person or evil person? Depends on perspective.
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Post by franko on Dec 12, 2007 11:39:10 GMT -5
I am not a religious man, but I still think "religion" gets a bad rap. Yes, horrible things are done in the name of religion, and will continue to be done in the name of religion, but how many good things are also done by those who strongly believe? How many charities, hospitals, and aid foundations are run by people of faith? In Montreal alone, we have the Old Brewery Mission, Father Emmit Johns, the combined Jewish Appeal, the Jewish General Hospital, the Grey Nuns, the list goes on and on. Every Church, Temple and Mosque runs their own community help programs, food drives, youth groups etc.. Food banks, hospices, shelters, community centers, hotlines, you name it. And that's just locally. How about all the charity foundations working in Africa, or Asia, or South America? You do not have to be religious to do good works. But I'd be willing to bet that religious groups are MUCH more involved in "good works" than those who are not religious. Religion may be the driving force behind much that is bad, but it is also the driving force behind much that is good. Perhaps much more so. Thanks, BC. Fact is, as much as religion is involved in the baser things of life [because once it becomes institutional it becomes man-interpreted and driven, and survival becomes the most pressing priority], it also leads in things of good (even if religious groups fight within themselves). Public schools, hospitals, and emancipation from slavery were all programs led by church groups. Not saying there wasn't disagreement between religious leaders on what should be done; just that without the 18th and 19th century western Christian churches we would be further behind as a society. |
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Post by Skilly on Dec 12, 2007 12:10:25 GMT -5
I am not a religious man, but I still think "religion" gets a bad rap. Yes, horrible things are done in the name of religion, and will continue to be done in the name of religion, but how many good things are also done by those who strongly believe? How many charities, hospitals, and aid foundations are run by people of faith? In Montreal alone, we have the Old Brewery Mission, Father Emmit Johns, the combined Jewish Appeal, the Jewish General Hospital, the Grey Nuns, the list goes on and on. Every Church, Temple and Mosque runs their own community help programs, food drives, youth groups etc.. Food banks, hospices, shelters, community centers, hotlines, you name it. And that's just locally. How about all the charity foundations working in Africa, or Asia, or South America? You do not have to be religious to do good works. But I'd be willing to bet that religious groups are MUCH more involved in "good works" than those who are not religious. Religion may be the driving force behind much that is bad, but it is also the driving force behind much that is good. Perhaps much more so. Even without religion people would still do these things, and because they WANT to not because they want to look good in front of their priest/minister/rabbi/etc...... charity does not stop at the church .... The world largest contributor to charities, Bill Gates, (yes Bill contributes more than the church) does it because he wants to ...... "Just in terms of allocation of time resources, religion is not very efficient. There's a lot more I could be doing on a Sunday morning." - Bill Gates .... the richest country in the world is Vatcian City. If the RC church really wanted to, they alone could put a great big dent into world poverty. Yet every Sunday they pass that plate around crying they are poor... |
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Post by clear observer on Dec 12, 2007 12:29:33 GMT -5
Does salvation of millions outweigh the salvation of billions? Stay tuned. Could you explain? I don't understand. Certainly, my good man. It was a simple rebuttle, posed in the form of a question in response to BC's above-post where he outline's the merits and/or "good deeds" born of "organized religion". My question suggests that perhaps the balance between "good-deeds-born-of-organized-religion" and "evil-born-of-organized-religion" is heavily tilted against the "good". I'd be willing to bet that this murdering "father" did "right" by many in his "religion". |
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Post by BadCompany on Dec 12, 2007 13:06:00 GMT -5
Even without religion people would still do these things, and because they WANT to not because they want to look good in front of their priest/minister/rabbi/etc...... charity does not stop at the church .... The world largest contributor to charities, Bill Gates, (yes Bill contributes more than the church) does it because he wants to ...... The Church would be the first to tell you that charity does not stop at the Church. The Church would also be the first to tell you that if you're doing good works simply to look good, then you're not really doing good works. The whole parable told by Jesus (paraphrasing) about how, if you are fasting, to put on your best clothes, clean yourself up, and do your darndest not to look like you are fasting. I would also like to see a source on Bill Gates contributing more than the Church. And even then, does he contribute more than all Catholic Churches, all Protestant churches, Muslim mosques, Jewish and Hindu Temples, etc.? At question is "religion" not "the Catholic Church." The gentleman in question in this thread is Muslim, not Catholic. Perhaps, but most people spend their Sunday mornings reading the newspaper or going to brunch. I'm guessing very few think to themselve "oh I could do so much good charity work, if only I didn't have to spend half an hour at church this morning." .... the richest country in the world is Vatcian City. If the RC church really wanted to, they alone could put a great big dent into world poverty. Yet every Sunday they pass that plate around crying they are poor... Again, I'd like to see a source. From what I could find the Vatican (which is, of course only ONE religion) has an estimated $10-15 billion in reserves, and is running an annual budgetary deficit. In comparison, Canada of course had a surplus of about $10 billion... It also appears that most of the Vatican's "wealth" is tied up in the stock exchange, and that if they were to liquify it all they would collapse the Italian economy. And still again, that's the Vatican, not your neighborhood church/temple/mosque. Could you explain? I don't understand. Certainly, my good man. It was a simple rebuttle, posed in the form of a question in response to BC's above-post where he outline's the merits and/or "good deeds" born of "organized religion". My question suggests that perhaps the balance between "good-deeds-born-of-organized-religion" and "evil-born-of-organized-religion" is heavily tilted against the "good". I'd be willing to bet that this murdering "father" did "right" by many in his "religion". That may be, that the murdering father did right by many of his religion. But how many non-murdering fathers also do right by others in their religion? I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people who worship - or heck, just the vast majority of people who donate time or money to charity - do not kill their daughters... wouldn't you agree? It's a high profile case, because it appears that religion may be a cause of the murder. Of course nobody is saying anything about the teenager who killed four people at a church in Colorado recently, because he hated religion, right? Where is the condemnation of HIS beliefs? It's easy to take potshots at the religious, even fashionable, but it's rarely warranted in my opinion. And often it veers off into "well what about this case" kinds of arguments, like Skilly's position that the Vatican has too much money, and therefor all religions are bad, be they Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, whatever. A man killed his daughter. Tragic, awful, horrific. I hope he never comes out of jail, and even then it will be too soon. But because he allegedly did so in a dispute over a religious tenet all religions are bad? That's too big a leap and ignores all the religious people who do not kill others, even if they do not agree with whatever they are saying or doing. And it ignores the quite literally billions of dollars that are raised by religious charities annually, and the billions of hours that are donated to charitable works in the name of religion. Again, I am not religious, do not attend church, but I still think the good that religions bring to the world far outweighs the bad. |
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Post by franko on Dec 12, 2007 13:14:30 GMT -5
Even without religion people would still do these things, and because they WANT to not because they want to look good in front of their priest/minister/rabbi/etc...... charity does not stop at the church .... The world largest contributor to charities, Bill Gates, (yes Bill contributes more than the church) does it because he wants to ...... I would suggest that many people, both church-goers and not, are involved in charities, adn that no one knows about it. From a Christian perspective, this is following the instructions of our "leader" [what an awful term to use]: when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, that your charitable deed may be in secretMatthew 6:3-4 I am the only one in my church who knows how much I give charitably. Of course, the one who gives receipts at the end of the year knows how much I give to the church, but no one knows what else I give. That's the way it should be. Of course, being cynical, I wonder if Bill Gates gives because he also wants to look good in front of his church public, but then I'm being judgmental to wonder that, aren't I? Indeed, charity does not -- and should not -- stop at the church. Depends on what the purpose of the church is, no? If it is a big happy gathering so that an offering can be received and people can be made to feel good about themselves/absolved from everything they have done the week previous, then he is right. But if church is not about religion per se but is about community, encouragement after a week of struggle and frustration, and a time to refocus and refresh and re-energize in the faith a person has, then it is a very beneficial exercise. . I have no disagreement with you there. There are congregations in our own denomination that have more money in the bank then I think is justifiable. "Just in case something happens" is their claim; "where is your faith" is my reply. otoh, one congregation here in Ottawa [Dominion Chalmers United Church] looked at their endowments, realized that there was over a million dollars sitting in their bank account gaining interest, and thought "that's not right" . . . and offered it to charities around the city for use. Groups submitted plans as to what they would do with the money should they have it; a committee met, and without any qualms distributed the money to where they felt it should be used. afaiac, churches are in the "people" business -- when money and buildings become thier prime focus they've lost it. Back to the original topic . . . much has been justified in the name of religion, but that doesn't mean the actions are justifiable. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 12, 2007 17:54:39 GMT -5
Even without religion people would still do these things, and because they WANT to not because they want to look good in front of their priest/minister/rabbi/etc...... charity does not stop at the church .... The world largest contributor to charities, Bill Gates, (yes Bill contributes more than the church) does it because he wants to ...... "Just in terms of allocation of time resources, religion is not very efficient. There's a lot more I could be doing on a Sunday morning." - Bill Gates I only learned of Matthew 6 from a friend not too long ago. We were talking about charity and those who provide it. I was hoping to cite a passage from it somewhere in the discussion but my brother, Franko, beat me to it. When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.Now, there are a lot of celebrities using their status to bring attention to some very necessary issues. That's not to say all celebrities or powerful people provide charity for the sake of self-promotion. But, a lot of them make sure that they are seen doing it. As for the father in question, I think he could take a lesson off the Amish. They even forgave the gunman who murdered several of their schoolchildren. Then again, so could we all I guess. Cheers. |
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Post by franko on Dec 12, 2007 19:08:15 GMT -5
Thinking about Bill Gates, church/religious groups, and charitable giving.
"The Church" is made up of people who voluntarily give, trusting that what they give will be used wiselu.
"The Microsoft" is made up of a monopoly which sells inferior product, keeps source codes closed, bundles software on its O/S [etc etc etc] and charges an exhorbitant amount of money for people to by their product . . . then the billionaire founder blasts governemtns for not giving enough money to his favourite causes while he spends even more money fighting lawsuits for his monopolisitc enterprise.
An example for us all.
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