Conservative Party Insurance?

[CentreHice]

PC's Allegedly Offered Chuck Cadman $1 Million in Life Insurance for his Vote?

Just watched Cadman's daughter on "Mike Duffy Live" and she said her late father also told her husband the same story.

If Harper wants to engineer a non-confidence vote, I doubt this was in his plans.

If true...not only is it an outright bribe...it's also attempted insurance fraud.

The PCs are arguing, "Why would Cadman say that no such offer was made, while telling his family a different story?"

Duffy said Cadman told him he voted for the Liberals in order to maintain the legitimate insurance payout upon his death.....so why didn't he accept the alleged offer of twice as much from the PCs? Hey, Mike Duhffy.....one is legal....one isn't.

My take: the insurance policy if the Liberals retained power was legal and standard for everyone....the offer the PCs were making was illegal, and Cadman couldn't go that way. Cadman's duaghter says she thinks her father didn't make it public because he wanted to die in peace, without a scandal.


Good luck, Tories.....and I say that as a man who votes for the man, not the Party.

[Skilly]

Harper is not to be trusted .....on anything.

[CentreHice]

If true....that's about as low as you can go. Bribing a dying man with twice the death benefit, and committing insurance fraud in the process.

Unlike l'affaire Kovalev, there is a tape of Harper talking "off the record" about the fact that he knew "offers" were made. PC spokespeople saying that the tape has been "edited", and suggesting that perhaps Cadman was so affected by his pain medication that he distorted the story to his family.

Again, how low can you go?

I tend to believe the Cadman family.

[MC Habber]

centrehice said:

I tend to believe the Cadman family.

Me too. The thing I don't understand is

Jodi Cadman told CBC News she talked to her mother by telephone on Friday and asked, "Why are you running for the Conservative Party if you are accusing them of this?

"If it was such an indecent proposal, how are you in good conscience running for that particular party?"

Daughter urges Dona Cadman to run as independent

[CentreHice]

Oh, I bet Harper's people are currying favour with Dona Cadman now.

Wonder if her press release will be more of a press refief for the PCs.

Hopefully Dona, Jodi, and her husband do right by what Chuck told each of them.

[MC Habber]

BTW, they're no longer 'PC', just 'C'. I guess they're not "progressive" anymore... Maybe they should have changed their name to 'RC' - Regressive Conservative Party of Canada.

[Skilly]

Are we really surprised about all this? Besides Harper's outright lies to curry votes in Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and Saskatchewan, he has now lied to Ontario (and McGuinty is supported in his stance by all other provinces).

When it comes to elections/voting this "sleeveen" will stop at nothing.

1) The Conservative Party is currently being sued by a former candidate (Alan Riddell) who says he stepped aside to make room for a high-profile candidate (Allan Cutler) in exchange for having his costs paid - but the party reneged. I believe the courts order the party to pay $50,000 .... not sureif the party appealed.

2) Allegations against Stockwell Day that he promised $50,000 in cash to Jim Hart if he stepped aside and let Day run in his riding. This was actually looked at by the RCMP and dropped without an official investigation..... but the Liberals say they had proof that discussions about a compensation occured. Where there is smoke.....

3) The party violated fundraising laws by not reporting over half a million in convention donations. No biggy? But then when Elections Canada finally got them to fully disclose their donations they listed $539,915 in unreported donations, $913,710 in "other revenue" and $1.45 million in unreported "other expenses"

4) Then there is the little matter with Ottawa mayor Larry O'Brien. O'Brien tried to get the guy running against him, Terry Kilrea, to drop out of the mayorship race by offering him money and a job with the National Parole Board. Only the federal cabinet can hand out jobs on the National Parole Board..... once again suggesting that the Conservatives have their mits into trying to buy votes or elections.


These Conservatives are far far far more dangerous than anyone ever thought they could be .... the Liberal sponsorship scandl pales in comparison to what these guys are attempting. Maybe Harper is a little to close to, one, GW "hanging chad, fixed elections" Bush.

I'd be very weary of voting Conservative ...... Newfoundland warned the rest of the country what this man was like, and now piece by piece the country will or should start to listen.

ABC - Anyone But Conservative.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

skilly said:

Are we really surprised about all this? Besides Harper's outright lies to curry votes in Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and Saskatchewan, he has now lied to Ontario (and McGuinty is supported in his stance by all other provinces).

When it comes to elections/voting this "sleeveen" will stop at nothing.

1) The Conservative Party is currently being sued by a former candidate (Alan Riddell) who says he stepped aside to make room for a high-profile candidate (Allan Cutler) in exchange for having his costs paid - but the party reneged. I believe the courts order the party to pay $50,000 .... not sureif the party appealed.

2) Allegations against Stockwell Day that he promised $50,000 in cash to Jim Hart if he stepped aside and let Day run in his riding. This was actually looked at by the RCMP and dropped without an official investigation..... but the Liberals say they had proof that discussions about a compensation occured. Where there is smoke.....

3) The party violated fundraising laws by not reporting over half a million in convention donations. No biggy? But then when Elections Canada finally got them to fully disclose their donations they listed $539,915 in unreported donations, $913,710 in "other revenue" and $1.45 million in unreported "other expenses"

4) Then there is the little matter with Ottawa mayor Larry O'Brien. O'Brien tried to get the guy running against him, Terry Kilrea, to drop out of the mayorship race by offering him money and a job with the National Parole Board. Only the federal cabinet can hand out jobs on the National Parole Board..... once again suggesting that the Conservatives have their mits into trying to buy votes or elections.


These Conservatives are far far far more dangerous than anyone ever thought they could be .... the Liberal sponsorship scandl pales in comparison to what these guys are attempting. Maybe Harper is a little to close to, one, GW "hanging chad, fixed elections" Bush.

I'd be very weary of voting Conservative ...... Newfoundland warned the rest of the country what this man was like, and now piece by piece the country will or should start to listen.

ABC - Anyone But Conservative.

As an outsider, who doesn't get much info about the Great White North, my observation is how cheaply favors can be bought.
$1 million life insurance is about $300 per month. In the US that's petty cash for Osama Obama or Pillory Clinton. Bill Clinton spends more than that for his cigar humidor.

[HABsurd]

habsfaninla said:

skilly said:

Are we really surprised about all this? Besides Harper's outright lies to curry votes in Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and Saskatchewan, he has now lied to Ontario (and McGuinty is supported in his stance by all other provinces).

When it comes to elections/voting this "sleeveen" will stop at nothing.

1) The Conservative Party is currently being sued by a former candidate (Alan Riddell) who says he stepped aside to make room for a high-profile candidate (Allan Cutler) in exchange for having his costs paid - but the party reneged. I believe the courts order the party to pay $50,000 .... not sureif the party appealed.

2) Allegations against Stockwell Day that he promised $50,000 in cash to Jim Hart if he stepped aside and let Day run in his riding. This was actually looked at by the RCMP and dropped without an official investigation..... but the Liberals say they had proof that discussions about a compensation occured. Where there is smoke.....

3) The party violated fundraising laws by not reporting over half a million in convention donations. No biggy? But then when Elections Canada finally got them to fully disclose their donations they listed $539,915 in unreported donations, $913,710 in "other revenue" and $1.45 million in unreported "other expenses"

4) Then there is the little matter with Ottawa mayor Larry O'Brien. O'Brien tried to get the guy running against him, Terry Kilrea, to drop out of the mayorship race by offering him money and a job with the National Parole Board. Only the federal cabinet can hand out jobs on the National Parole Board..... once again suggesting that the Conservatives have their mits into trying to buy votes or elections.


These Conservatives are far far far more dangerous than anyone ever thought they could be .... the Liberal sponsorship scandl pales in comparison to what these guys are attempting. Maybe Harper is a little to close to, one, GW "hanging chad, fixed elections" Bush.

I'd be very weary of voting Conservative ...... Newfoundland warned the rest of the country what this man was like, and now piece by piece the country will or should start to listen.

ABC - Anyone But Conservative.

As an outsider, who doesn't get much info about the Great White North, my observation is how cheaply favors can be bought.
$1 million life insurance is about $300 per month. In the US that's petty cash for Osama Obama or Pillory Clinton. Bill Clinton spends more than that for his cigar humidor.

It is true that the total amounts in US politics are far greater than in Canada. However, one can peddle influence or buy the vote of a US congressman relatively cheaply.

The following graphic detailing how the convicted Abramoff spread the wealth is informative:

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2005/12/12/GR2005121200286.html

[Cranky]

skilly said:

Are we really surprised about all this? Besides Harper's outright lies to curry votes in Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and Saskatchewan, he has now lied to Ontario (and McGuinty is supported in his stance by all other provinces).

When it comes to elections/voting this "sleeveen" will stop at nothing.

1) The Conservative Party is currently being sued by a former candidate (Alan Riddell) who says he stepped aside to make room for a high-profile candidate (Allan Cutler) in exchange for having his costs paid - but the party reneged. I believe the courts order the party to pay $50,000 .... not sureif the party appealed.

2) Allegations against Stockwell Day that he promised $50,000 in cash to Jim Hart if he stepped aside and let Day run in his riding. This was actually looked at by the RCMP and dropped without an official investigation..... but the Liberals say they had proof that discussions about a compensation occured. Where there is smoke.....

3) The party violated fundraising laws by not reporting over half a million in convention donations. No biggy? But then when Elections Canada finally got them to fully disclose their donations they listed $539,915 in unreported donations, $913,710 in "other revenue" and $1.45 million in unreported "other expenses"

4) Then there is the little matter with Ottawa mayor Larry O'Brien. O'Brien tried to get the guy running against him, Terry Kilrea, to drop out of the mayorship race by offering him money and a job with the National Parole Board. Only the federal cabinet can hand out jobs on the National Parole Board..... once again suggesting that the Conservatives have their mits into trying to buy votes or elections.


These Conservatives are far far far more dangerous than anyone ever thought they could be .... the Liberal sponsorship scandl pales in comparison to what these guys are attempting. Maybe Harper is a little to close to, one, GW "hanging chad, fixed elections" Bush.

I'd be very weary of voting Conservative ...... Newfoundland warned the rest of the country what this man was like, and now piece by piece the country will or should start to listen.

ABC - Anyone But Conservative.

I wonder if all this animosity has anything to do with money? It seems the man can do no good if he doesn't come calling with a barrel of money.

[Cranky]

centrehice said:

My take: the insurance policy if the Liberals retained power was legal and standard for everyone....the offer the PCs were making was illegal, and Cadman couldn't go that way. Cadman's duaghter says she thinks her father didn't make it public because he wanted to die in peace, without a scandal.

And of course, the daughter is the avenging "angel'. Or could this be a step towards a book? Money has a funny habit of getting in the way of "truth" even by "angels".

I bet you a buck that if there is a police investigation, nothing will be found there.

[CentreHice]

machabby said:

BTW, they're no longer 'PC', just 'C'. I guess they're not "progressive" anymore... Maybe they should have changed their name to 'RC' - Regressive Conservative Party of Canada.

So, basically they've morphed from Mulroney's 2-seat ashes in the early 90s.....to joining with Preston Manning's Reform Party....which melded into Stockwell Day's Alliance Party....to the New Conservative Party....then back to the Conservative Party for branding purposes first and foremost.

How many steps to the right was that?

[CentreHice]

habsfaninla said:

As an outsider, who doesn't get much info about the Great White North, my observation is how cheaply favors can be bought.
$1 million life insurance is about $300 per month. In the US that's petty cash for Osama Obama or Pillory Clinton. Bill Clinton spends more than that for his cigar humidor.

In the States, this story wouldn't even make the back page. But in Canada, it could topple a government.

Meanwhile, the Iraq Coalition Provisional Authority (set up by the US under Paul Bremer's lead) had $9 billion go unaccounted for between 2003 and 04. Most Americans don't even know about it.

$100 million in Adscam got Paul Martin turfed.....but $9 billion misappropriated doesn't do a frickin' thing.

One of Many Articles on the Subject

[Skilly]

habsaddict said:

skilly said:

Are we really surprised about all this? Besides Harper's outright lies to curry votes in Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and Saskatchewan, he has now lied to Ontario (and McGuinty is supported in his stance by all other provinces).

When it comes to elections/voting this "sleeveen" will stop at nothing.

1) The Conservative Party is currently being sued by a former candidate (Alan Riddell) who says he stepped aside to make room for a high-profile candidate (Allan Cutler) in exchange for having his costs paid - but the party reneged. I believe the courts order the party to pay $50,000 .... not sureif the party appealed.

2) Allegations against Stockwell Day that he promised $50,000 in cash to Jim Hart if he stepped aside and let Day run in his riding. This was actually looked at by the RCMP and dropped without an official investigation..... but the Liberals say they had proof that discussions about a compensation occured. Where there is smoke.....

3) The party violated fundraising laws by not reporting over half a million in convention donations. No biggy? But then when Elections Canada finally got them to fully disclose their donations they listed $539,915 in unreported donations, $913,710 in "other revenue" and $1.45 million in unreported "other expenses"

4) Then there is the little matter with Ottawa mayor Larry O'Brien. O'Brien tried to get the guy running against him, Terry Kilrea, to drop out of the mayorship race by offering him money and a job with the National Parole Board. Only the federal cabinet can hand out jobs on the National Parole Board..... once again suggesting that the Conservatives have their mits into trying to buy votes or elections.


These Conservatives are far far far more dangerous than anyone ever thought they could be .... the Liberal sponsorship scandl pales in comparison to what these guys are attempting. Maybe Harper is a little to close to, one, GW "hanging chad, fixed elections" Bush.

I'd be very weary of voting Conservative ...... Newfoundland warned the rest of the country what this man was like, and now piece by piece the country will or should start to listen.

ABC - Anyone But Conservative.

I wonder if all this animosity has anything to do with money? It seems the man can do no good if he doesn't come calling with a barrel of money.

Buying votes is the lowest you can go in a democracy .... in fact, if it is true, then we can not claim to live in a democracy now can we?

Lobbying is one thing ... direct compensation for your vote in the House of Commons is totally wrong, and goes to show you just what kind of man our PM is.

Notice you dont refute any of the claims ... you ok with those kinds of actions?

[Skilly]

habsaddict said:

I wonder if all this animosity has anything to do with money? It seems the man can do no good if he doesn't come calling with a barrel of money.

It doesn't matter how much money he comes with, or how big the barrel ... he'll show you the money, tell you how much he is going to give you, and then once you agree to his bribe election promise he'll take it away.

Ontario is now looking for money too ... it isn't just one province. OH and that is for the MANUFACTURING sector. You know, those guys who got themselves into their troubles, high Canadian dollar (boo hoo), make your money elsewhere ... oh wait ...no one is belittleing them, everyone in Canada (I believe a recent poll had it at 70%) supports helping them out. We listen to reason ... unlike when others use well reasoned points. Then its different and just push the little guy down. Will you turn down Harper's money when he comes to you with his barrel? Will you tell others in the manufacturing sector to not take it and/or give it back? Now what if he promised you 1 million to help your business and then only gives you 1 thousand? Ahhhh doesn't feel good does it? Will he be so angelic in your eyes then?

[MC Habber]

skilly said:

habsaddict said:

I wonder if all this animosity has anything to do with money? It seems the man can do no good if he doesn't come calling with a barrel of money.

Buying votes is the lowest you can go in a democracy .... in fact, if it is true, then we can not claim to live in a democracy now can we?

Lobbying is one thing ... direct compensation for your vote in the House of Commons is totally wrong, and goes to show you just what kind of man our PM is.

Notice you dont refute any of the claims ... you ok with those kinds of actions?

Skilly, you sound just like me. It's a little unnerving.

[Skilly]

machabby said:

skilly said:

Buying votes is the lowest you can go in a democracy .... in fact, if it is true, then we can not claim to live in a democracy now can we?

Lobbying is one thing ... direct compensation for your vote in the House of Commons is totally wrong, and goes to show you just what kind of man our PM is.

Notice you dont refute any of the claims ... you ok with those kinds of actions?

Skilly, you sound just like me. It's a little unnerving.

You ain't all that bad.

[Cranky]

skilly said:

habsaddict said:

I wonder if all this animosity has anything to do with money? It seems the man can do no good if he doesn't come calling with a barrel of money.

It doesn't matter how much money he comes with, or how big the barrel ... he'll show you the money, tell you how much he is going to give you, and then once you agree to his bribe election promise he'll take it away.

Ontario is now looking for money too ... it isn't just one province. OH and that is for the MANUFACTURING sector. You know, those guys who got themselves into their troubles, high Canadian dollar (boo hoo), make your money elsewhere ... oh wait ...no one is belittleing them, everyone in Canada (I believe a recent poll had it at 70%) supports helping them out. We listen to reason ... unlike when others use well reasoned points. Then its different and just push the little guy down. Will you turn down Harper's money when he comes to you with his barrel? Will you tell others in the manufacturing sector to not take it and/or give it back? Now what if he promised you 1 million to help your business and then only gives you 1 thousand? Ahhhh doesn't feel good does it? Will he be so angelic in your eyes then?

I am in manufacturing Skilly and I am not expecting a single dime from the government. I was hit there years ago and nobody cared about my sector. Now that it is hitting politically sensitive and loud mouth sectors, all of a sudden the world is coming to an end.

As an interest, I have studied Industrial History and one thing that I came away with, no matter how important an industry is to a country or society, you can not protect it from competition and market changes. So no matter how much money ANYBODY throws at it, it will not survive. And it it does, it's a drain on society as a whole.

So....

I expect nothing and live with it very comfortably. Why can't others do the same? Why do we need to find solutions in hand-outs? Why doesn't the "little guy" just work harder and smarter?

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

habdomen said:

habsfaninla said:

As an outsider, who doesn't get much info about the Great White North, my observation is how cheaply favors can be bought.
$1 million life insurance is about $300 per month. In the US that's petty cash for Osama Obama or Pillory Clinton. Bill Clinton spends more than that for his cigar humidor.

It is true that the total amounts in US politics are far greater than in Canada. However, one can peddle influence or buy the vote of a US congressman relatively cheaply.

The following graphic detailing how the convicted Abramoff spread the wealth is informative:

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2005/12/12/GR2005121200286.html

Habsurd is correct.
My comment is more directed towards me personally.
I am not wealthy by most standards, but I would not sell my integrity for a few hundred or a few thousand dollars.
Now if someone wants a questionable favor, and approached me with over $10 million tax free in a swiss account; I would put on a blue and white sweater and cheer for the leafs at center ice of the Air Canada Center with my arm around Tie Domi.

[CentreHice]

habsfaninla said:

[
Now if someone wants a questionable favor, and approached me with over $10 million tax free in a swiss account; I would put on a blue and white sweater and cheer for the leafs at center ice of the Air Canada Center with my arm around Tie Domi.

;D

Tax-free and Swiss account aside, you just described Don Cherry.

[franko]

This board is starting to sound like the CBC: all Leafs, all the time

[franko]

Allow me to speak as much as I can of the "Ottawa political situation"

Caveat: I am not "in the know" and did not vote for any the persons involved.

skilly said:

1) The Conservative Party is currently being sued by a former candidate (Alan Riddell) who says he stepped aside to make room for a high-profile candidate (Allan Cutler) in exchange for having his costs paid - but the party reneged. I believe the courts order the party to pay $50,000 .... not sureif the party appealed.

I was at an all-candidates meeting and heard Alan Riddell. If I were a dyed-in-the-wool Conservative I wouldn't have voted for him! He was unprepared, unispired, and insipid. The best the the Conservatives could have done is have him step back.

As to the charges and payments . . . don't know, don't care. It's the price of politics and goes on in all parties.

2) Allegations against Stockwell Day that he promised $50,000 in cash to Jim Hart if he stepped aside and let Day run in his riding. This was actually looked at by the RCMP and dropped without an official investigation..... but the Liberals say they had proof that discussions about a compensation occured. Where there is smoke.....

Proof? Then the investigation should have continued, not been dropped.

3) The party violated fundraising laws by not reporting over half a million in convention donations. No biggy? But then when Elections Canada finally got them to fully disclose their donations they listed $539,915 in unreported donations, $913,710 in "other revenue" and $1.45 million in unreported "other expenses"

I am NOT an apologist for the Conservatives . . . but if you are going to bring up their mis-spendings bring up the Liberals mis-spending too.

4) Then there is the little matter with Ottawa mayor Larry O'Brien. O'Brien tried to get the guy running against him, Terry Kilrea, to drop out of the mayorship race by offering him money and a job with the National Parole Board. Only the federal cabinet can hand out jobs on the National Parole Board..... once again suggesting that the Conservatives have their mits into trying to buy votes or elections.

Ah, the O'Brien situation. What a pathetic excuse for a mayor. *ahem*sorry*ahem*

Kilrea says O'Brien offered him money and a job. An investigation continues. An investigation that the union pushed and pushed and pushed until they got. Why the union? They hate O"Brien -- he wants to cut spending, which means a cut in city union jobs. When the city amalgamated it was supposed to mean a savings through job attrition -- we wouldn't need as many employees. HA!!! (and that's not cranky). Wouldja believe . . . the number of employees went UP? Then, when there was to be a hiring freeze the number of employees went up again?

It's all political, Skilly.

btw, Kilrea's credibility isn't the greatest. He fought 2 elections against Bob Chiarelli and lost both. He was in the last election running against Chiarelli and Chiarelli's record saying how terrible a mayor he was . . . then when poll results were taken and he was seen far behind the other more conservative candidate (O'Brien) he backed out -- then backed Chiarelli as a wonderful/the best man for the job! He ran on an ABC platform -- anyone but Chiarelli. A tune changed quickly because he thought he would do better than O'Brien and decided to snub.

And if the Conservatives have their mitts trying to buy the Ottawa election (why, for heaven's sake, would they do that?) then the investigation would be deep enough and charges would have been laid against the guilty ones offering. Nada.

These Conservatives are far far far more dangerous than anyone ever thought they could be .... the Liberal sponsorship scandl pales in comparison to what these guys are attempting. Maybe Harper is a little to close to, one, GW "hanging chad, fixed elections" Bush.

A little far there, my friend.

Haven't heard anything about the promises made to David Orchard that were broken by the Liberals, or the nominating meetings cancelled by the Liberals so they could put thier own favourites in, or the charges back and forth between the NDP and Liberals on different riding matters -- including untruths and smear campaigns.

I think Shakespeare's suggestions for lawyers should extend to politicians myself.

[seventeen]

Harper is a fundamentalist, and that pretty well says it all. There's not much gray in his life, maybe not even in his suits, and certainly no love that I've seen. He's supposed to be a 'family' man, but when he sees off his son for his first day of school in Ottawa, he does it by shaking the kids hand.
A real warm fella, that Stevie.

I have no intention of every voting for that guy Skilly, but it's unfortunate he's managed to cultivate the persona he has, rather than the wolf behind the sheepskin.

It's really not surprising he gets along so well with Dubbya.

[franko]

Interesting, 17 . . . when he does do something "warm and fuzzy" he gets blamed for pandering to the media.

I'm not a Harper apologist but the guy can't win. But then again, neither can Dion. The media loves to see someone in a bad light.

The only time Harper gets props is when he goes to a hockey game. And even then . . . after all, he is a Leaf fan (need another reason not to vote for him?).

[Disgruntled70sHab]

I really didn't know how to contribute to the thread so I stayed clear for a while.

I don't know if the allegations are true but if they are then the Tories will pay the price and probably a harsher price than the Liberals did for ADSCAM.

And it's not because they're crime is any better or worse than ADSCAM. It's because the voters in Ontario and Eastern Canada will seize the opportunity to throw another government out on their collective arses. Thats the way we do things in this country.

The voters of Ontario probably have the shortest memories of all. It's usually all Red or Grit just because. In the Prairies it's all Blue or Tory just because. It has little to do with what this party or that party did. They're pretty much all the same especially when they're caught. They all tend to use the word "politics" as a crutch to defer responsibility for their mistakes or corruption.

IMO, the people of Newfoundland should be miffed at Harper for what he's done and rightly so. However, the people of Alberta would most probably shoot an Ontario-based Liberal if they saw one. Something to do with oil revenues and a lack of transfer payments ... where have I heard that one before?

I have no idea if this recent scandal is legit or not. We'll have to wait and see the outcome. However, the damage has been done to the Tories just on the implication. If they lose the next election we have Stephan Dion waiting in the wings to run the country. And when he does we'll see a return to:

* an underfunded, decaying military,
* a decrease in US relations (not as much if the Democrats get in but a drop anyway),
* the return of "quiet diplomacy" and little to no support for Canadians abroad.

If the Tories get in again we'll see deal after deal made just to save the minority government. And you know what? That's not a bad thing because I wouldn't trust Harper with a majority.

Cheers.

[MC Habber]

disgruntled70shab said:

* the return of "quiet diplomacy" and little to no support for Canadians abroad.

Dis, I don't know what you're referring to, but the Conservatives have refused to protest in any way the death sentence of a Canadian in the US, and, like the Liberals, have basically ignored the case of Omar Khadr (the Canadian citizen arrested at the age of 15 who is still being held in Guantanamo Bay). I'm not sure why you think the Liberals will be worse on this front.

[Skilly]

habsaddict said:

So....

I expect nothing and live with it very comfortably. Why can't others do the same? Why do we need to find solutions in hand-outs? Why doesn't the "little guy" just work harder and smarter?

You still haven't answered the question though.

If the government told you they would give the manufacturing sector money with no strings attached, would you take it? Of course you would, why wouldn't you .... free money and all that.

Now, if the government got more specific and told you they give the manufacturing sector 5 billion dollars, no strings, all you have to do is apply for the money .... would you apply for your share? Again, why wouldn't you ....?

Now, you get a letter in the mail, responding to your application for the "free, no strings attached, money" that says ... "HA, the government has deemed, that your company is eligible to receive $200,000 in grant money, under a new manufacturing aid program". How much are you expecting to get? When you receive the check and its only $200 are you disappointed? How about when you find out that not only did they only give you $200, but they were going to increase corporate taxes by $400, if you didnt cut gases down, and increase them to by $200 anyway?

That's what the government of Canada did to Newfoundland. We didn't go with our hands-out. Harper told all Canadians, that he believes that all provinces deserve to benefit from their own non-renewable resources so they wouldn't come to Ottawa with their hands-out. He, with no prompting from Newfoundland, Saskatchewan, or Nova Scotia, said on TV, as well as in the House of Commons, that as PM he would eliminate non-renewable resources from the equalization equation. When he came here campaigning, he arrived with a letter, which he gave to the province of Newfoundland, promising that he would eliminate it from the equation. When he became PM, we didn't expect him to do it immediately, but economists down here began crunching the numbers and it would benefit this province to the tune of $11 billion dollars (over the 12 yrs up to 2010). When the province contacted him to get a timeline on the promise, he wouldn't respond. Then he pulls a fast one with the budget tying it to the Atlantic Accord, (which was never the debate), and by accepting the terms of one deal we lose the Accord (it would be capped), and if we go the other way we get no new money .... nice guy that Steve... his $11 billion promise, winds up mounting $700-800 million over the same period. Maybe less since we will be a have province this year (and the exclusion of non-renewable resources has nothing to do with whether you are a have or have not province ... it was going to be for everyone ... it was a Harper platform)

I take great offense that anyone would say we went with our hands out ... nothing could be further from the truth. Harper made a unsolicited promise that the provinces, all provinces, would benefit from .... that most provinces said they have been asking for since Alberta had the luxury of benefitting from it in the 60's ... just want to be treated equal my friend ... thats all.

[Skilly]

franko said:

As to the charges and payments . . . don't know, don't care. It's the price of politics and goes on in all parties.


Proof? Then the investigation should have continued, not been dropped.

It's also against the law. Section 19 of the Criminal Code if I recall correctly (been awhile since I did Canadian Law - grade 12). Under the bribery and corruption laws of this country you are not allowed to offer a monetary benefit to an election candidate. Now I'll admit the section is one of the least prosecuted sections in the Code ... and it does have some shades of grey. For example, a party is allowed to offer assistance if a candidate wins a nomination election .... but direct monetary payment is a no-no.

Proof? You and I know that proof and prosecution are too different things. Just because it didn't go further doesn't mean it didn't happen (and yes, the vice-versa is true too).

I am NOT an apologist for the Conservatives . . . but if you are going to bring up their mis-spendings bring up the Liberals mis-spending too.

I did ... I mention the sponsorship scandal. And they have paid the price. They aren't in office now, (and I didnt vote for them). But the Tories are the government of the day, and they control the purse strings. I fail to see why I should bring up past wrong-doings of the Liberal party when they don't spend the money now, and they have "paid-the-price" for their indescretions. Actually, shouldn't we now hold the Tories to the same standard that we did Liberals. Why should one party get away will misappropriations of funds, when we didnt let the other?

Ah, the O'Brien situation. What a pathetic excuse for a mayor. *ahem*sorry*ahem*

Kilrea says O'Brien offered him money and a job. An investigation continues. An investigation that the union pushed and pushed and pushed until they got. Why the union? They hate O"Brien -- he wants to cut spending, which means a cut in city union jobs. When the city amalgamated it was supposed to mean a savings through job attrition -- we wouldn't need as many employees. HA!!! (and that's not cranky). Wouldja believe . . . the number of employees went UP? Then, when there was to be a hiring freeze the number of employees went up again?

It's all political, Skilly.

Only know what I read .... and I'm very aware that it all political. Thats the point. The Tories will do anything and everything to retain power, including the illegal action of vote buying in the House of Commons.

And if the Conservatives have their mitts trying to buy the Ottawa election (why, for heaven's sake, would they do that?) then the investigation would be deep enough and charges would have been laid against the guilty ones offering. Nada.

Well, not sure how the municipal political scene is up there franko ... but down here (where it is no better) you see it all the time. A mayor of a town/city, running in the next federal/provincial election ... just used the municipality to get name recognition. For instance, not sure if you heard of our "beloved" mayor, Andy Wells. But the province has now made him chairman of our Public Utilities Board. Political favours for "keeping quiet on some things and running for us when we come a calling" always happen. Is it so unthinkable to think that Harper had some plans for this guy?

A little far there, my friend.

Not sure I follow ... the sponsorship scandal was designed (rightly or wrongly - IMO wrongly) to give government contracts to Quebec to "spurn the soverignty" movement. That amounts to buying votes, and in the end, we found out it amount to funding their own party. How is that any different than what Haper is accused of? The big difference to me, is that Harper is accused of trying to buy votes in an "open vote of confidence in the House of Commons". It may not be monetarily equivalent, but it is worse ethically. Some may argue how that is different than forcing someone to vote along party lines, and I'd have to agree with them (I dont like that either), but Cadman was an independent - the swing vote as it turned out.

Haven't heard anything about the promises made to David Orchard that were broken by the Liberals, or the nominating meetings cancelled by the Liberals so they could put thier own favourites in, or the charges back and forth between the NDP and Liberals on different riding matters -- including untruths and smear campaigns.

Does the Liberals transgressions make the Tories more acceptable ... two wrongs making a right and all that?

[franko]

Not an economist. Not in private enterprise. But . . .

skilly said:

free money and all that.

There is no free money. There is only money that you have taken from me and now think that I should be beholden because youare giving some of it back.

As to equalization, it is a redistribution of the wealth. I don't see how a province can say "we have resources and want to keep the benefits . . . but keep on sending us the redistribution cheque".

Bah . . . politics and politicians. I was out west when Trudeau implimented the NEP. Boy, that went over well!

As to Ontario and the government here crying for money . . . don't get me going on its ineptitude. Since the Liberals have come into power, they have increased taxes (it's the Harris Tories' fault), placed a health care tax premium on us (it's the Harris Tories' fault), seen businesses leave (it's the Harris Tories' fault). Umm . . . you are into your second term, Mr. McGuinty -- maybe it's time to stop using the Tories as an excuse? Add to that the fact that the Minister of Health has made ourtageous comments regarding diapers and seniors in care, and that the government continues to cater to / ignore situations with natives (now being likened to the Mafia shakedowns) and you have to wonder how the Liberals here can say anything at all about their situation. They react with cries of woe against the federal government for everything but do nothing on its own.

3 1/2 more yaers of this!

[Disgruntled70sHab]

machabby said:

disgruntled70shab said:

* the return of "quiet diplomacy" and little to no support for Canadians abroad.

Dis, I don't know what you're referring to, but the Conservatives have refused to protest in any way the death sentence of a Canadian in the US, and, like the Liberals, have basically ignored the case of Omar Khadr (the Canadian citizen arrested at the age of 15 who is still being held in Guantanamo Bay). I'm not sure why you think the Liberals will be worse on this front.

I don't know the Canadian on death row, McH. But, if you have the story please post it. I'm always interested in this kind of story.

I also don't know about Khadr all that well. What I might take from your post is that this young man is innocent of any wrongdoings. Yet, two successive governments have chose to look the other way.

Are they guilty?

As far as 'quiet diplomacy' is concerned, ask Bill Sampson. Sampson was tourtured into a confession for a crime he and a few others didn't commit. He sent to Saudi prison and tourtured for two years not knowing if the next time his cell door opened he would be brought for execution by beheading. I remember Graham gingerly hoping down the steps of parliament to announce that the Canadian government, the Liberals, had successfully negotiated Sampson's release. Well it was Prince Charles' efforts that actually got Sampson and his friends released.

As an aside, the only two words Sampson had for the Canadian delegate who met him in England upon his arrival would be in violation of the Code of Conduct. Quiet diplomacy indeed! I hope the Liberal party was offended by this as well.

The Liberals also completely mishandled and gave up on the investigation into Iranian-Canadian photojournalist Zahra Kazemi. It wasn't unitl the Harper government came into office that pressure was put on the Iranian government to the point where they became offended. GOOD!

However, I am concerned about another person who went missing in Hama, Syria back in March of 07. Her name is Nicole Vienneau. She was backpacking through the Middle East when she went missing. I know the government conducted an investigation but it took time because her disappearance wasn't reported immediately.

I was talking to a student who served in Saudi Arabia. He said one of two things has happened to her. If she's not dead, she's in the sex slave/trade business. I haven't be on the website her brother established for a while but I know this isn't over by a longshot.

Have to get to work McH. Like I said, I don't know about the first two all that well. But, before I go, I have to say that I'd feel a lot better travelling around the globe with this present government in place. They make a big deal about international dealings like this.

Have to run. Will pick this up later. Thanks.

Cheers.