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Post by CrocRob on Sept 19, 2009 17:43:41 GMT -5
I think this is a great trade for the Leafs. The odds dictate it's about 1.5 future long-term NHLers (of some unknown ability) in exchange for a 21 year old goalscorer just tapping his potential.
I can't poopooh this. It's brilliant, though I think they could have gotten him for cheaper. The Leafs got much better. The Bruins didn't.
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Post by franko on Sept 19, 2009 17:59:21 GMT -5
While I agree that Kessel may be a good 'un, he may just fizzle. iirc, the Leafs recently signed an ex-Hab d-man who was touted to be full of potential as well. The jury is still out. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Sept 19, 2009 20:20:51 GMT -5
HAHA - have you seen the story on TSN.ca yet? : "AFTER PICKING UP KESSEL, LEAFS KNOCK OFF STANLEY CUP CHAMPS" Block off Bloor St. it's time to start the parade! ;D I didn't think TSN would start this soon ... Good point too, Slash ... playing with Savard should have had something to do with Kessell's success. Cheers. |
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Post by CrocRob on Sept 19, 2009 20:56:14 GMT -5
While I agree that Kessel may be a good 'un, he may just fizzle. iirc, the Leafs recently signed an ex-Hab d-man who was touted to be full of potential as well. The jury is still out. The distinct difference being that Komisarek never actually performed on the ice to merit the level of praise he received. And he's 28. Kessel is 21 and has a 35 goal season under his belt. Apples and oranges if you ask me. Probably not (yet) deserving of a $5.25M contract or whatever, but I'd trade Kessel for anyone on the Habs not named Markov. This thread just reads like jealousy disguised as skepticism to me. I'd make that trade everyday and twice on Sunday if I were Toronto. The only positive for me is that Boston gets worse. Both now and probably long term. |
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Post by franko on Sept 19, 2009 21:12:30 GMT -5
The distinct difference being that Komisarek never actually performed on the ice to merit the level of praise he received. And he's 28. Kessel is 21 and has a 35 goal season under his belt. 35 goal season which does not compute into Though obviously it does for one GM I'd trade for him too . . . just not as much as was given for him. Skepticism undisguised. Or disbelief disguised as skepticism. They were mocking JFJ for trading away too many picks and emptying the cupboard and Burke did the same thing. For Ovie, most definitely, but Burke overpaid twice: once for Kessel and once to Kessel. Perhaps. At least they haven't improved. I hold firm to my thought: |
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Post by jkr on Sept 19, 2009 22:26:39 GMT -5
While I agree that Kessel may be a good 'un, he may just fizzle. iirc, the Leafs recently signed an ex-Hab d-man who was touted to be full of potential as well. The jury is still out. The distinct difference being that Komisarek never actually performed on the ice to merit the level of praise he received. And he's 28. Kessel is 21 and has a 35 goal season under his belt. Apples and oranges if you ask me. Probably not (yet) deserving of a $5.25M contract or whatever, but I'd trade Kessel for anyone on the Habs not named Markov. Really? - Price, Cammalleri for instance? |
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Post by CrocRob on Sept 20, 2009 0:16:26 GMT -5
Well I'd suggest one 35 goal season for a 21 year old can certainly translate into a $5M+ contract in this NHL economy, but I'm in the minority. It seems that the majority of players are vastly overpaid according to the public.
As for if the jury is out, it is if you want to judge in hindsight. Today the Leafs made out like bandits, exchanging futures and potential for a current known commodity which is better than any they have. Boston has a lot of work to do to even it out.
As for if I'd trade Price and Cammalleri (which would be any two. but I suppose I should have written "any one" in place of "anyone"), it's certainly worth considering. We would clear upwards of $5M in cap space for the '10 season, a season when we have several RFAs to re-sign with limited cap space. I also honestly don't think Cammalleri is much better than Kessel, if at all. Kessel certainly has more raw talent and has the maturity and ability to harness it.
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Post by franko on Sept 20, 2009 7:03:49 GMT -5
Well I'd suggest one 35 goal season for a 21 year old can certainly translate into a $5M+ contract in this NHL economy, but I'm in the minority. It seems that the majority of players are vastly overpaid according to the public. $5M+ for a possible one-season wonder seems to have become the NHL norm, but that's because of over-payments [or maybe just payments] on spec in the past [and look what spec has done to the economy]. Really, aren't all trades eventually judged on hindsight future results? If Kessel bombs and the Bruins pick up something great in one of the drafts, Bruins win. If Kessel becomes a star and the Bruins find dross, Leafs win. We just won't know for a year or two [or until we see what Kessel can do starting in December] I agree with you there -- Boston didn't even get any actual cap relief out of this -- they are still up against it and will be hard prssed to make a move in February if they want to. Oh come on  -- he was mentioning two possibilities, not suggesting two players, But you redeemed yourself. So one-for-one makes cap space a wash. Cammy has the experience; Kessel has a few more years in him. Chiarelli moved out of the driver's seat by not planning properly in a cap world, lost a player who he could have had for less than what the player is being paid in TO -- and the player's agent knew it. I'll go so far as advantage: Toronto right now . . . but no further ;D |
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Post by jkr on Sept 20, 2009 8:09:37 GMT -5
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Post by Skilly on Sept 20, 2009 9:09:39 GMT -5
I look at it this way .... Kessel is 21, and has one good season.
Would we trade for a one season 30 goal scorer and give up a first rounder? Two first rounders? How about even giving him a three yr contract?
I'd argue, Kessel is NOT a known commodity.
Before everyone says "Ohhhh here is goes again with THAT comparison ... Is Andrei Kostitsyn worth 2 first rounders??
IMO, Kostitsyn is more of a known commodity than Kessel and there isn't a single GM that would give the Habs two first rounders for him.
Ok , there is 2 yrs 8 months difference in age ... Would the Habs get ONE first rounder for him? Nope.
Kessel - 222GP - 66G - 60A - 126pts
Kostitsyn - 186GP - 52G - 56A - 108pts
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Post by CentreHice on Sept 20, 2009 9:17:50 GMT -5
I think all parties won here. 1. The Leafs: scoring potential, Kessel has a nose for the net, no question. 2. The Bruins: future potential, whether it be in the draft or packaging some or all of those picks for a warm body come deadline time. 3. Kessel and his agent. Rumours of Kessel having a poor attitude would be most welcome to be proven true in Leafland.  |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Sept 20, 2009 9:17:56 GMT -5
Chiarelli moved out of the driver's seat by not planning properly in a cap world, lost a player who he could have had for less than what the player is being paid in TO -- and the player's agent knew it. So ... there are other GMs making mistakes ... not just Gainey ... I see ... ;D Like you suggested earlier, the jury is still out and I agree with you buds. However, the Leafs are better, a lot better than they were this time last year. Burke has a plan. He's got his team tougher, he's got a new attitude in the dressing room and he's got a bonafide sniper in Kessel. Son of a gun. Cheers. Having said that, the jury is still out on our team as well. Wonder what kind of discussion we'd have had in Montreal had the Habs landed Kessel? Just askin' is all. Cheers. |
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Post by BadCompany on Sept 20, 2009 9:35:33 GMT -5
I hate this trade. Why? Because the two teams I despise the most in the league did pretty darn well with this trade. Right now it looks like they both won, and that annoys me.
Toronto got a guy who is probably going to be a 35-45 goal scorer for the next 10 years. Yeah, you can say he was a one-season wonder and he may fizzle out, but on the other hand he was drafted 5th overall because most people thought he was going to be a perennial 35-45 goal scorer and nothing he has done in his very short career has suggested he isn't going to fulfill that promise. It's not like he's a ten year veteran who has had one career season mixed in with nine mediocre ones; he's 21. Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... guess what, it's a duck. Yeah, $5.25 million is a lot of money, but we're paying a 20 goal scorer $5 million, so we shouldn't be throwing stones, now should we? As for the draft picks, they are significant make no mistake, but I think Burke will probably recoup them next spring, when and if he deals Kaberle at the deadline. Kaberle should probably bring back a similar return, so it will probably end up being Kaberle for Kessel with some ancillaries thrown in.
Boston got out of a sticky cap situation by picking up two decent to potentially very high first round draft picks, and another very decent second round pick. They did exactly what you are supposed to do in a cap world; ensure that you have a continuous supply of young players coming into the system, with low cap hits and high potential. Once they reach that potential you lock up the ones you want to keep, and trade the others to ensure the cycle continues. We could have learned from that, no?
Good trade for both teams. I hate it.
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Post by CrocRob on Sept 20, 2009 10:44:57 GMT -5
I look at it this way .... Kessel is 21, and has one good season. Would we trade for a one season 30 goal scorer and give up a first rounder? Two first rounders? How about even giving him a three yr contract? I'd argue, Kessel is NOT a known commodity. Before everyone says "Ohhhh here is goes again with THAT comparison ... Is Andrei Kostitsyn worth 2 first rounders?? IMO, Kostitsyn is more of a known commodity than Kessel and there isn't a single GM that would give the Habs two first rounders for him. Ok , there is 2 yrs 8 months difference in age ... Would the Habs get ONE first rounder for him? Nope. Kessel - 222GP - 66G - 60A - 126pts Kostitsyn - 186GP - 52G - 56A - 108pts Kessel is certainly more of a known commodity than three future draft picks. That he has better career numbers on average than Kostitsyn, and a better last season than Kostitsyn, and is younger than Kostitsyn gives him extra value. How much value is subjective, I suppose. I don't value draft picks that highly when weighed against acquiring someone who's actually proven they can play in the NHL. A 21 year old 30 goal scorer who looks like he's scratching the surface of his potential? I recognize you only really value results on the ice, but at some point you need to prognosticate and find potential. I'd certainly give up a couple draft picks and a contract for said 21 year old 30 goal scorer. The Leafs will certainly have to play well to make sure those draft picks aren't high ones. It's also worth noting that Kessel's contract uses up one season of UFA eligibility. |
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Post by BadCompany on Sept 20, 2009 10:58:02 GMT -5
The Leafs will certainly have to play well to make sure those draft picks aren't high ones. I don't even think they have to play that well, to be honest with you. Sure, if they completely bomb and end up with the first overall it won't look so good, but even if they are a non-playoff team it's not that bad of a trade, if you ask me. Consider this; say they're pretty bad next year and finish with say the 10th overall pick. Say next year they are marginally better, still miss the playoffs, but end up with the 15th overall pick. Would you trade a 10th and a 15th for the 5th overall? That's EXACTLY what it would take to move into the top five of any draft, if you ask me. It's the kind of trade proposal we see bandied about every draft season, is it not? The fact that the 5th overall is even more of a known commodity than your typical pick is all that much more of a bonus... |
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Post by Skilly on Sept 20, 2009 12:50:05 GMT -5
The Leafs will certainly have to play well to make sure those draft picks aren't high ones. I don't even think they have to play that well, to be honest with you. Sure, if they completely bomb and end up with the first overall it won't look so good, but even if they are a non-playoff team it's not that bad of a trade, if you ask me. Consider this; say they're pretty bad next year and finish with say the 10th overall pick. Say next year they are marginally better, still miss the playoffs, but end up with the 15th overall pick. Would you trade a 10th and a 15th for the 5th overall? That's EXACTLY what it would take to move into the top five of any draft, if you ask me. It's the kind of trade proposal we see bandied about every draft season, is it not? The fact that the 5th overall is even more of a known commodity than your typical pick is all that much more of a bonus... Ok .. I'll play your supposition game. Is Kessel enough to get Sidney Crosby? How about Evgeni Malkin? What am I getting at? Well Toronto just gave Boston a second first rounder. And like you said a 10th and a 15th could get you into the top five ... if Toronto bombs, it could be enough for Boston to get Taylor Hall.... just saying ... But I still don't think Kessel is worth a first rounder. I dont care if he was 21. We have had 22-24 yr olds get 60 points, score 30 goals and most couldnt wait to ship them out of town. The newly formed KGB (Kessel-Grabovski-Blake) line in Toronto, is no where comparable to Savard and Lucic. Kessel wasn't the cog that made that line click ... and he isn't going to get the support like that in Toronto. I still say it was too much ... for something unproven. Walks like a duck? That theory doesn't hold water in Montreal. In Montreal if you walk like a duck, and quack like a duck , you are asked to prove you are a duck ..... |
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Post by jkr on Sept 20, 2009 14:26:25 GMT -5
I hate this trade. Why? Because the two teams I despise the most in the league did pretty darn well with this trade. Right now it looks like they both won, and that annoys me. Toronto got a guy who is probably going to be a 35-45 goal scorer for the next 10 years. Yeah, you can say he was a one-season wonder and he may fizzle out, but on the other hand he was drafted 5th overall because most people thought he was going to be a perennial 35-45 goal scorer and nothing he has done in his very short career has suggested he isn't going to fulfill that promise. It's not like he's a ten year veteran who has had one career season mixed in with nine mediocre ones; he's 21. Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... guess what, it's a duck. Yeah, $5.25 million is a lot of money, but we're paying a 20 goal scorer $5 million, so we shouldn't be throwing stones, now should we? As for the draft picks, they are significant make no mistake, but I think Burke will probably recoup them next spring, when and if he deals Kaberle at the deadline. Kaberle should probably bring back a similar return, so it will probably end up being Kaberle for Kessel with some ancillaries thrown in. The part I can't see in this post is Kaberle fetching a similar return that Kessel just got. By trade deadline day he will be 32 with just over a year left on his deal. He may be worth a first to a contending team but I can't see more than that. And he still has his NTC. |
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Post by CrocRob on Sept 20, 2009 18:21:46 GMT -5
Keeping in mind that Craig Rivet netted a first round pick and a depth defenseman, I have no doubt that Kaberle would fetch a better offer than that. The thing about Kaberle is that he has a NTC and controls his own destiny, which limits who can bid (and in theory lowers the final price). Then again, if Burke is smart he doesn't let teams know they're not on the list and uses them as leverage so long as they keep bidding.
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Post by jkr on Sept 20, 2009 20:04:25 GMT -5
Keeping in mind that Craig Rivet netted a first round pick and a depth defenseman, I have no doubt that Kaberle would fetch a better offer than that. The thing about Kaberle is that he has a NTC and controls his own destiny, which limits who can bid (and in theory lowers the final price). Then again, if Burke is smart he doesn't let teams know they're not on the list and uses them as leverage so long as they keep bidding. I just had a look at the 2009 deadline deals here: www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=30230I could find maybe 3 offensive D men - Schneider, Morris & Leopold. Schneider went for a 2nd & 3rd. He helped the Habs PP & signed on for another year in the NHL with Van. Morris & Leopold went for players that aren't exactly household names although PHX got 3 players for Morris. (2 of them - Kalinin & Dawes are gone to the KHL & Calgary respectively) and they only have Prucha left from that trade. I guess we could argue about Kaberle's value - IMO opinion he is better than my three examples. But what I am trying to say is back to my original point - I just can't agree that he would fetch much more that a 1st rounder or a collection of warm bodies and later round picks. |
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Post by BadCompany on Sept 20, 2009 20:05:32 GMT -5
Ok .. I'll play your supposition game. Is Kessel enough to get Sidney Crosby? How about Evgeni Malkin? What am I getting at? Well Toronto just gave Boston a second first rounder. And like you said a 10th and a 15th could get you into the top five ... if Toronto bombs, it could be enough for Boston to get Taylor Hall.... just saying ... Whoa there. I didn’t say the 10th and the 15th would get you the 1st overall, I said it could get you the 5th overall. A leap up to the first overall is something all together different. In fact, I cautioned that this could blow up in Toronto’s face IF they are miserable and finish dead last. But even the most ardent Leaf hater would have a hard time arguing that the Leafs are the odds-on favorites to nab the 1st overall pick next year. Just for fun I looked at what any hypothetical 5th overall for 10th and 15th overall trade would have looked like, going back ten years: 1999, Tim Connolly for Branislav Mezei an Scott Kelman: Despite Connolly’s injury woes this is still a win for the 5th overall pick. 2000, Raffi Torres for Mikhail Yakubov and Artem Kryukov. Torres is nothing special, but he still blows Yakubov and Kyrukov out of the water. Win for the 5th overall. 2001, Stanislav Chistov for Dan Blackburn and Igor Knyzez. Says something when a bust like Chistov is still the best player, no? 2002, Ryan Whitney for Eric Nystrom and Jesse Niinimaki. Whitney in a landslide. 2003, Thomas Vanek for Andrei Kostitsyin and Robert Nilsson. We are still hoping that Andrei turns into what Vanek already is. I plead the 5th. 2004, Blake Wheeler for Boris Valabik and Alexander Radulov. Tough call. I like what Valabik can become, and I think Radulov is the best of the three, even though he is in Russia. I’ll call it the first win for the 10th and the 15th, 2005, Carey Price for Luc Bourdon and Ryan O’Marra. Kind of tough to call, given Bourdon’s untimely death, but O’Marra looks like a bust so you have to give this one to Carey. 2006, Phil Kessel for Michal Frolik and Riku Helenius. Frolik and Helenius may turn out to be good players, but I don’t think any GM would pass up Kessel for those two. 2007, Karl Alzner for Keaton Ellerby and Alex Plante. Obviously too early to tell, but Alzer has already played 30 NHL games so he has the early lead. 2008, Luke Schenn for Cody Hodgson and Erik Karlsson. Still too early but that Schenn kid is already a stud and will probably be one for the next 15 years. So there you have it. Ten drafts, and for seven of them the 5th overall was the much better pick (even in drafts where the 5th busted!), 2 of them were too early to call, though the 5th overall had the early lead and only in one draft was the combo of a the 10th and 15th picks better than the 5th overall. And even that is somewhat debatable as one of the guys is in Russia and the other just happens to be a guy I like. Like it or not a 5th overall pick is MUCH, MUCH more likely to be a player than the 10th and 15th picks together. Sure, we can go back and play the what if game ("what if they took so and so at 15 instead of...") but that game works both ways (what if they took star x at #5 instead of...). A LOT of things have to go wrong before this is even considered close to being a bad trade for Toronto. Kessel has to bust, the Leafs have to tank, the picks they gave up have to be better... history suggests the Leafs have fortune on their side in this one. But I still don't think Kessel is worth a first rounder. I dont care if he was 21. We have had 22-24 yr olds get 60 points, score 30 goals and most couldnt wait to ship them out of town...Walks like a duck? That theory doesn't hold water in Montreal. In Montreal if you walk like a duck, and quack like a duck , you are asked to prove you are a duck ..... When has Montreal ever been the gold standard by which teams measure their player development and asset management? |
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Post by jkr on Sept 20, 2009 20:10:06 GMT -5
Ok .. I'll play your supposition game. Is Kessel enough to get Sidney Crosby? How about Evgeni Malkin? What am I getting at? Well Toronto just gave Boston a second first rounder. And like you said a 10th and a 15th could get you into the top five ... if Toronto bombs, it could be enough for Boston to get Taylor Hall.... just saying ... When has Montreal ever been the gold standard by which teams measure their player development and asset management? I didn't read it that way - I think Skilly was being critical of the way prospects are being developed in Montreal. |
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Post by BadCompany on Sept 20, 2009 20:19:14 GMT -5
Keeping in mind that Craig Rivet netted a first round pick and a depth defenseman, I have no doubt that Kaberle would fetch a better offer than that. The thing about Kaberle is that he has a NTC and controls his own destiny, which limits who can bid (and in theory lowers the final price). Then again, if Burke is smart he doesn't let teams know they're not on the list and uses them as leverage so long as they keep bidding. I just had a look at the 2009 deadline deals here: www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=30230I could find maybe 3 offensive D men - Schneider, Morris & Leopold. Schneider went for a 2nd & 3rd. He helped the Habs PP & signed on for another year in the NHL with Van. Morris & Leopold went for players that aren't exactly household names although PHX got 3 players for Morris. (2 of them - Kalinin & Dawes are gone to the KHL & Calgary respectively) and they only have Prucha left from that trade. I guess we could argue about Kaberle's value - IMO opinion he is better than my three examples. But what I am trying to say is back to my original point - I just can't agree that he would fetch much more that a 1st rounder or a collection of warm bodies and later round picks. The rumors, for what they are worth, say that the Flyers were willing to part with Jeff Carter (before he bloomed) and a 1st round pick for Kaberle. So a developing first round pick and an actual first round pick - two first round picks in other words. The year before the Sabres dealt Brian Campbell for Steve Bernier (former first round pick) and a 1st rounder. Before that was the aforementioned Rivet for a 1st and Gorges... 2006 saw Brendan Witt traded for Kris Beech (former 1st rounder) and a 1st round pick... Going back "name" defensemen always seem to go for at least one first round pick and a top-ish prospect. Unless Kaberle totally stinks next year I don't see why some team wouldn't be willing to gamble on him helping them make a long playoff run. I happen to think he's a pretty good player, so I definitely don't think he'd have any problems garnering a decent return should they decide to trade him (and assuming he accepts of course). |
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Post by CrocRob on Sept 20, 2009 21:19:18 GMT -5
When has Montreal ever been the gold standard by which teams measure their player development and asset management? I didn't read it that way - I think Skilly was being critical of the way prospects are being developed in Montreal. What? Never! |
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Post by CrocRob on Sept 20, 2009 21:36:43 GMT -5
I just had a look at the 2009 deadline deals here: www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=30230I could find maybe 3 offensive D men - Schneider, Morris & Leopold. Schneider went for a 2nd & 3rd. He helped the Habs PP & signed on for another year in the NHL with Van. Morris & Leopold went for players that aren't exactly household names although PHX got 3 players for Morris. (2 of them - Kalinin & Dawes are gone to the KHL & Calgary respectively) and they only have Prucha left from that trade. I guess we could argue about Kaberle's value - IMO opinion he is better than my three examples. But what I am trying to say is back to my original point - I just can't agree that he would fetch much more that a 1st rounder or a collection of warm bodies and later round picks. The rumors, for what they are worth, say that the Flyers were willing to part with Jeff Carter (before he bloomed) and a 1st round pick for Kaberle. So a developing first round pick and an actual first round pick - two first round picks in other words. The year before the Sabres dealt Brian Campbell for Steve Bernier (former first round pick) and a 1st rounder. Before that was the aforementioned Rivet for a 1st and Gorges... 2006 saw Brendan Witt traded for Kris Beech (former 1st rounder) and a 1st round pick... Going back "name" defensemen always seem to go for at least one first round pick and a top-ish prospect. Unless Kaberle totally stinks next year I don't see why some team wouldn't be willing to gamble on him helping them make a long playoff run. I happen to think he's a pretty good player, so I definitely don't think he'd have any problems garnering a decent return should they decide to trade him (and assuming he accepts of course). Brian Campbell went for a 1st and Bernier (1st round pick). Pronger went for what amounted to three first round picks and Lupul (not a real comparison here, as Pronger is a league above Kaberle). Mattias Norstrom went for a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, plus a prospect (2nd pick) and a warm body (Modry). |
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Post by seventeen on Sept 20, 2009 22:48:05 GMT -5
I like the trade better from Boston's perspective. The 2011 draft is still far away, but conjecture is it's looking a lot like 1999 and there were a ton of picks traded that year. Several 2011 first rounders have already been traded, so that lends some credence to the 'weak' label. So throw out the '11 choice. OTOH, 2010 is supposed to be pretty good, so a 1st and a second are a good return for Boston. I also like Kessel's ability. He's really shifty and has excellent hands. If not for the 'character' issues, he'd be a terrific pickup at that price. And there's the rub. He might score 45-50 goals, and still hurt the team. It all depends on how he reacts with his teammates. Big gamble, by both teams, but less so for Boston. Like BC, I don't like the trade from a Habs persective because the odds are, at least one of those teams is going to do well by it. But for a different take, where both teams are losers, heres a blogster: habsloyalist.blogspot.com/ |
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Post by Skilly on Sept 21, 2009 7:10:50 GMT -5
Whoa there. I didn’t say the 10th and the 15th would get you the 1st overall, I said it could get you the 5th overall. A leap up to the first overall is something all together different. In fact, I cautioned that this could blow up in Toronto’s face IF they are miserable and finish dead last. But even the most ardent Leaf hater would have a hard time arguing that the Leafs are the odds-on favorites to nab the 1st overall pick next year. I didn't say a 10 and a 15th would get you the #1 pick .... I referred to your suggestion that a 10th and a 15th may get you into the top 5, and qualified it with "if Toronto bombs" meaning what if Toronto's pick is in the #5 to #8 area. I know it is all supposition .... but giving your divisional rival a second first rounder, and in all liklihood the ability to move up in the draft, and then signing a one yr 30-60 man for 5.25 million, is IMO, hypocritical (after all the Penner fuss) and dangerous of Burke .... Kessel is not that good to go mortgaging possible futures. |
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Post by jkr on Sept 21, 2009 8:02:01 GMT -5
The rumors, for what they are worth, say that the Flyers were willing to part with Jeff Carter (before he bloomed) and a 1st round pick for Kaberle. So a developing first round pick and an actual first round pick - two first round picks in other words. The year before the Sabres dealt Brian Campbell for Steve Bernier (former first round pick) and a 1st rounder. Before that was the aforementioned Rivet for a 1st and Gorges... 2006 saw Brendan Witt traded for Kris Beech (former 1st rounder) and a 1st round pick... Going back "name" defensemen always seem to go for at least one first round pick and a top-ish prospect. Unless Kaberle totally stinks next year I don't see why some team wouldn't be willing to gamble on him helping them make a long playoff run. I happen to think he's a pretty good player, so I definitely don't think he'd have any problems garnering a decent return should they decide to trade him (and assuming he accepts of course). Brian Campbell went for a 1st and Bernier (1st round pick). Pronger went for what amounted to three first round picks and Lupul (not a real comparison here, as Pronger is a league above Kaberle). Mattias Norstrom went for a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, plus a prospect (2nd pick) and a warm body (Modry). OK - between you & BC I'm convinced.  I'll modify my prediction of a 1st or some middling prospect to a 1st AND a prospect. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Sept 21, 2009 13:02:18 GMT -5
I think this is a great trade for the Leafs. The odds dictate it's about 1.5 future long-term NHLers (of some unknown ability) in exchange for a 21 year old goalscorer just tapping his potential. I can't poopooh this. It's brilliant, though I think they could have gotten him for cheaper. The Leafs got much better. The Bruins didn't. I agree. If I'm a hard core Bruins fan, coming off one of the best regular seasons in franchise history, I'm having a wicked hard time figuring out why this is a good deal. Kessel is a 35-40 goal guy at 21 years old, the best goal scorer on the team, and they traded him for some nice draft picks to be sure but we all know how spotty the NHL draft can be. It's not like the Patriots trading Richard Seymour to the Raiders for what will probably be a top 10 pick in next year's draft (i.e. a sure starter). We're talking about trading current scoring for MAYBE future potential, and this is a team coming off a 115 point season, the Bruins were back on the map in Boston, and despite the loss to Carolina in the playoffs everything was set up for them to take another run. The window is short in the NHL, a team like Boston CANNOT afford to take a step backward in pursuit of a Cup. And sure enough, the majority of fans in Boston (at least on talk radio) are ripping this trade for what it is - a trade that just made the Bruins worse. |
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Post by jkr on Sept 21, 2009 14:05:07 GMT -5
I think this is a great trade for the Leafs. The odds dictate it's about 1.5 future long-term NHLers (of some unknown ability) in exchange for a 21 year old goalscorer just tapping his potential. I can't poopooh this. It's brilliant, though I think they could have gotten him for cheaper. The Leafs got much better. The Bruins didn't. I agree. If I'm a hard core Bruins fan, coming off one of the best regular seasons in franchise history, I'm having a wicked hard time figuring out why this is a good deal. Kessel is a 35-40 goal guy at 21 years old, the best goal scorer on the team, and they traded him for some nice draft picks to be sure but we all know how spotty the NHL draft can be. It's not like the Patriots trading Richard Seymour to the Raiders for what will probably be a top 10 pick in next year's draft (i.e. a sure starter). We're talking about trading current scoring for MAYBE future potential, and this is a team coming off a 115 point season, the Bruins were back on the map in Boston, and despite the loss to Carolina in the playoffs everything was set up for them to take another run. The window is short in the NHL, a team like Boston CANNOT afford to take a step backward in pursuit of a Cup. And sure enough, the majority of fans in Boston (at least on talk radio) are ripping this trade for what it is - a trade that just made the Bruins worse. The Bruins will have 4 1st rounders in the next two drafts. This gives them the flexibility of parlaying those picks into something big at the deadline perhaps. The return on those picks may not be as far away as people think. I posted an article farther up the thread from the Boston Herald that suggested that Kessel manoeuvered himself into this position. If he was unhappy in Boston maybe Chiarelli didn't have much choice. That being said, I still would not have traded Kessel to a conference rival let alone a divisional foe. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Sept 21, 2009 15:58:24 GMT -5
You may be right about using those picks to swing a trade later or at the deadline, but then it begs the question of if you end up trading for a 40-goal guy why didn't you just sign Kessel when you had the chance?
It introduces more risk for Boston, or at least more uncertainty. If you asked me which option I would prefer (a) a 21-year old 36-goal scorer who you drafted; or (b) 4 1st round picks over the next two years (theirs plus Toronto's), I would take the bird in hand. I've seen almost 20 years worth of 1st round picks come and go in MTL without a 40-goal scorer.
As to how it worked out with Kessel on a personal level, that's too bad for the Bruins. They can try and paint Kessel as a selfish malcontent all they want, and they didn't have much choice but to deal him, but those are just excused. I'm not saying they didn't get back anything of value but the fact ist the Bruins are (supposed to be) a Cup contending team that just lost their top goal scorer for no immediate return. That's a bad deal, IMO.
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-- he was mentioning two possibilities, not suggesting two players,
