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Post by Boston_Habs on Dec 31, 2003 10:33:13 GMT -5
What was the deal on the table back then? Markov, Garon plus 2 1st round picks, which turned out to be Mike Komisarek and Alex Perezhogin? Was there anybody else. Did we give ATL the choice of taking Theodore?
Well, Atlanta ended up saying no, but even knowing who our picks turned out to be (Komi, Perezhogin), I would still make that trade. Kovalchuk at 20 years old is already one of the top 3-5 offensive players in the league and should be for a long time to come. The fact that he can put up huge numbers without the presence of Dany Heatley is even more impressive.
A move like that would have set us back in terms of development in other areas, mainly on the blueline with the loss of Markov and Komisarek, but that was as close as we'll ever get to snagging the kind of elite offensive talent this franchise is sorely lacking.
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Post by insomnius on Dec 31, 2003 11:19:20 GMT -5
hmmm I would not make this trade...
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Post by DeportivoHabs on Dec 31, 2003 12:24:29 GMT -5
afraid I wouldn't do it either.
komi and markov are potential #1 d-men...besides...we had audette as our sniper....who needs kovalchuk???
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Post by AH on Dec 31, 2003 13:57:46 GMT -5
Markov and Komi alone are worth more than Kovalchuk ...
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Post by blaise on Dec 31, 2003 14:25:28 GMT -5
I think Atlanta would disagree with that assessment.
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Post by franko on Dec 31, 2003 14:25:55 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Kovalchuk would not fit in with this team: he can score.  btw: I'd make the trade, though time will tell whether or not the pressure of this season gets to Kovalchuk or the relief of Heatley's return slows him down. Long-term is anybody's guess, but I'd say Kovalchuk is the real thing (as opposed to, say Daigle and the mess made in Ottawa). |
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Post by blaise on Dec 31, 2003 14:29:44 GMT -5
Atlanta is leading the Southeast Division in the absence of Heatley (and, sadly, Snyder) in large part because of Kovalchuk's scoring. Now remind me about what Markov and Komisarek have been doing for the Habs this season.
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Post by The Unseen Hand on Dec 31, 2003 15:32:50 GMT -5
Atlanta is leading the Southeast Division -- and Southeast is clearly the weakest Division in the NHL. Hmm... I'd love to have Kovalchuk on our team but I'm not sure if I'd do that trade. I must admit that I believe Komisarek will develop to an excellent defenceman and Perezhogin will probably be good player in the NHL in the future. We'll see later how the thing will turn out for those two. Markov hasn't been as good as he was last season but that's understandable because his father has cancer and Markov has to be away from him. |
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Post by StickHandler on Dec 31, 2003 16:50:38 GMT -5
Atlanta is leading the Southeast Division in the absence of Heatley (and, sadly, Snyder) in large part because of Kovalchuk's scoring. Now remind me about what Markov and Komisarek have been doing for the Habs this season. Yeah, but that's this year only... I don't think you will be saying the same thing 5 years from now when Markov, Komo, Perez & Garon will be part of the Habs' core. |
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Post by insomnius on Dec 31, 2003 16:50:54 GMT -5
I did not know that Markov's dad has cancer...my dad died of Multiple Sclerosis nearly ten years ago (I'm 36) and I know I was demolished even though he'd been sick for 20 years...
at least now I know why he's not the same guy we saw last year...hopefully his dad's cancer goes into remission...
But Kovalchuk, as wonderful a hockey player as he is and is going to be, is not worth gutting the future of our defensive corps...
but if there were a way that some of our future prospects and ONE of those D men (preferably Hainsey but I like him too) then it's a deal I'd make...
Hainsey, Plekanec and a pick for Kovalchuk...but I don't think that Atlanta's Don Waddell is that stupid...
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Post by blaise on Dec 31, 2003 17:03:46 GMT -5
Yeah, but that's this year only... I don't think you will be saying the same thing 5 years from now when Markov, Komo, Perez & Garon will be part of the Habs' core. Excuse me, but what does this have to do with Atlanta's leading the Southeast? And in 5 years, that may be the strongest division, because Atlanta, Tampa Bay, and Florida have some really good young talent, while Staal is a great addition to Carolina. I would take Bouwmeester over Markov or Komisarek now or in 5 years, and Luongo (and others) over Garon. I have no idea how well Perezhogin will do, and neither do you. As a fan, perhaps you are overrating the Habs prospects. I hope you're right but it could turn out to be wishful thinking on your part. |
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Post by ethan on Dec 31, 2003 17:26:58 GMT -5
kovalchuk now is worth more than garon-markov-komisarek....
Before he was drafted... too risky
In five years from now (in a habs favorable future where markov and komi live up to their potential and Garon is a year in year out vezina candidate) it looks like a dumb move.
Timing is everything cause circumstances change.
In any event, any one who says that right now they wouldn't rather see Kovalchuk in our lineup instead of garon-markov-komi... well, let me know where you get your drugs cause your smoking some sweet sh**t.
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Post by PTH on Dec 31, 2003 17:52:24 GMT -5
IMO, this is the trade that could have kept Savard as GM if he'd been able to get it done.
Just imagine the Habs with the new top notch scoring winger, an all-star player at age 20....
That one, top-notch, young player, is worth more than the assets we might have been giving up - even if the goalie lost was Theo. Garon and Hackett could have been kept as an adequate duo in goal.
Of course, this is all after the fact, but if the reported offer from AS is close to the truth, this is one deal Waddell has to be happy he didn't make, and that AS has to wonder if it could have saved his bacon.
A lesser Habs team but with a top notch kid to build around, the pressure on AS might have lessened somewhat.
Anyhow, just to say, I'm an AS critic, but this is one terrific deal for us, and it's too bad he couldn't get it done.
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Post by blaise on Dec 31, 2003 18:14:41 GMT -5
kovalchuk now is worth more than garon-markov-komisarek.... Before he was drafted... too risky In five years from now (in a habs favorable future where markov and komi live up to their potential and Garon is a year in year out vezina candidate) it looks like a dumb move. Timing is everything cause circumstances change. In any event, any one who says that right now they wouldn't rather see Kovalchuk in our lineup instead of garon-markov-komi... well, let me know where you get your drugs cause your smoking some sweet sh**t. This trade would have been risky from the Habs point of view? Apparently Savard didn't think the players the Habs would have to give up were worth their weight in diamonds. Moreover, Atlanta wouldn't do it because they knew what they were getting in Kovalchuk. |
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Post by AH on Dec 31, 2003 19:57:55 GMT -5
Leading the SouthEast division ... Since when is that some sort of accomplishment ?
It is such an accomplishement that in the Eastern Conference, teams chomp at the bit to finish SIXTH just to get an easy ride in the first round....
Savard probably didn't even think that those players were worth their weight in gold, let alone diamonds, when he was making that offer to Waddell. Then again, Andre Savard's biggest acquisitions as GM were Donald Audette, M. Czerkawski, Yannick Perreault, Randy Mckay, Doug Gilmour, Gino Odjick, Chad Kilger, Joe Juneau and Patrick Traverse ...
Now that's a guy who knows character and knows how to build a hockey team !!!
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Post by PTH on Dec 31, 2003 20:46:36 GMT -5
....Then again, Andre Savard's biggest acquisitions as GM were Donald Audette, M. Czerkawski, Yannick Perreault, Randy Mckay, Doug Gilmour, Gino Odjick, Chad Kilger, Joe Juneau and Patrick Traverse ... Now that's a guy who knows character and knows how to build a hockey team !!! Perreault, without whom we'd never have made the playoffs in '01, Gilmour ditto, Kilger as I recall was a Houle acquisition, and Juneau again was a key player in getting us to the playoffs and keeping us decent, and aren't you forgetting a few guys like Zednik and Bulis ? |
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Post by AH on Dec 31, 2003 21:49:26 GMT -5
PTH - Kilger was a Savard acquisition. Yeah I give him Bulis and Zed but he did give up Zubrus, so ... As for the playoffs, Theo was the sole reason for anything. Without him we should have had Rick Nash or Bowmeester.
Anyways, as I remember it, in the summer of 2001, Savard set out for Turgeon and Lapointe on the FA market and Kovalchuk via trade. However, the FA signings turned out to be Juneau and Perreault and there was no trade.
If the initial plan had gone through, those would have been 2 disastrous FA acquisitions (no question there for anyone) and IMO a bad trade.
Kinda makes you wonder about Savard all over again !!!
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Post by blaise on Jan 1, 2004 0:21:24 GMT -5
Tut, tut, you're bitter. Atlanta has a better record than the Bruins and Habs.
Besides trading for Bulis and Zednik, Savard landed Sundstrom. He also signed Claude Julien.
Savard drafted Komisarek, Perezhogin, and Plekanec in the same draft year of 2001, and all are going to make the Habs. The following year he drafted Higgins, who will also make the team. Some of his lower round picks have an outside chance of appearing in the NHL some day.
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Post by MC Habber on Jan 1, 2004 0:21:35 GMT -5
Kovalchuk has IMO perhaps the best wrist shot in the league and his pure goal-scoring ability absolutely dwarfs that of any player we've had in more than 10 years. His presense would radically transform our offense. That said, I dislike him and if we gave up both Komo and Markov, we could be looking at a pretty pourous defense in a few years. If we wanted to transform the team into one that wins on offense and goaltending alone, we would need to acquire more high-end offensive players than just him. Still, Kovalchuk has clearly made it IMO, and Markov is the only one of our players mentioned who you could say that about (and he's having an off-year) so, given the opportunity now, I would definitely make that trade (assuming Theodore is not part of it). At the time though, it would have probably been too risky to put so many eggs in one basket. That one, top-notch, young player, is worth more than the assets we might have been giving up - even if the goalie lost was Theo. Garon and Hackett could have been kept as an adequate duo in goal. I disagree with this - losing Theo as well would have left us with too many holes to fill. Since Hackett is nearing the end of his career, we would soon have had Garon and ? as our goalies, and Hainsey (if he even makes it), Souray, Rivet, Boullion, Dykhuis, Beauchemin, and perhaps Robidas as our D. Keep in mind that at the time, Garon had played a total of 11 games in the NHL (2.44 GAA, .897 SV%). I can't see us winning too many games with that lineup. |
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Post by blaise on Jan 1, 2004 0:24:41 GMT -5
I agree with your comments, but why do you dislike Kovalchuk?
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Post by MC Habber on Jan 1, 2004 0:39:07 GMT -5
I agree with your comments, but why do you dislike Kovalchuk? He's a "hotdog", and he strikes me as a selfish player with a poor attitude. But I admit, I haven't followed him that closely, so perhaps I have judged him too quickly, but I'm still waiting for him to make me change my mind. |
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Post by AH on Jan 1, 2004 1:36:38 GMT -5
Tut, tut, you're bitter. Atlanta has a better record than the Bruins and Habs. Besides trading for Bulis and Zednik, Savard landed Sundstrom. He also signed Claude Julien. Savard drafted Komisarek, Perezhogin, and Plekanec in the same draft year of 2001, and all are going to make the Habs. The following year he drafted Higgins, who will also make the team. Some of his lower round picks have an outside chance of appearing in the NHL some day. Atlanta is ahead of the HABS ? for how long ? 2 points and one game in hand !!! At the start of the year, if I remember your posts correctly, the Rangers, the Sabres, and even the Blue Jackets were better teams than the Habs ... Oh well ... As for basing Savard's abilities as a GM on a couple of drafts, then judging Rejean Houle by the 1998 and 2000 drafts means the Reggie was a freaking genius !!! |
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Post by PTH on Jan 1, 2004 3:30:15 GMT -5
PTH - Kilger was a Savard acquisition. Oh well - Zholtok wasn't exactly prime rib, either. Well, so ? You have to give to get, and he got 2 good young kids along with a 1st round pick. And to date, this deal has been very good for us. The fact that Theo was the key player doesn't mean that without the offense we got from Perreault and Gilmour along with Juneau giving us a passable 3d line, we would still have made the playoffs. Full marks for Theo who did all a goalie could do, but he still needed a team in front of him to give him some support and score the odd goal. Well, I think the trade would have been a good one, long-term. As to the FAs, you get what you can ! |
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Post by PTH on Jan 1, 2004 3:33:07 GMT -5
At the time though, it would have probably been too risky to put so many eggs in one basket. Well, at the time I wasn't sure about the deal, but you have to look at it in hindsight now - what if Waddell has accepted AS's offer ? I think it would have turned out pretty well for us, but at the time it was a gamble; but all trades are gambles. This is one that, IMO, AS would have won. Now, this is all in hindsight, but if AS was willing to gamble on Kovalchuk, in this case we can see that he *could* have come out a winner. I think he would have. But still, utlimately, it depends on what happens to Markov, Komo and co. But at this point, I'd take that gamble, for sure. |
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Post by StickHandler on Jan 1, 2004 10:17:34 GMT -5
Excuse me, but what does this have to do with Atlanta's leading the Southeast? And in 5 years, that may be the strongest division, because Atlanta, Tampa Bay, and Florida have some really good young talent, while Staal is a great addition to Carolina. I would take Bouwmeester over Markov or Komisarek now or in 5 years, and Luongo (and others) over Garon. I have no idea how well Perezhogin will do, and neither do you. As a fan, perhaps you are overrating the Habs prospects. I hope you're right but it could turn out to be wishful thinking on your part. You may be right and there's no denying Kovalchuk is a superstar and will be for years. He's a great player to build around and I'd love to have him in Montreal. However, from what we've seen from Markov and Komisarek, I believe they will also be great players to build a solid defense around. No one knows how Perezhogin will pan out but I give Savard the benefit of the doubt when it comes to prospects. I think we should all do. As a fan, I may be overrating the Habs prospects but I think you may be underrating them. Only time will tell. Let's start another thread on the subject in 5 years. |
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Post by montreal on Jan 1, 2004 11:54:58 GMT -5
Leading the SouthEast division ... Since when is that some sort of accomplishment ? It is such an accomplishement that in the Eastern Conference, teams chomp at the bit to finish SIXTH just to get an easy ride in the first round.... Savard probably didn't even think that those players were worth their weight in gold, let alone diamonds, when he was making that offer to Waddell. Then again, Andre Savard's biggest acquisitions as GM were Donald Audette, M. Czerkawski, Yannick Perreault, Randy Mckay, Doug Gilmour, Gino Odjick, Chad Kilger, Joe Juneau and Patrick Traverse ... Now that's a guy who knows character and knows how to build a hockey team !!! Savard also got Gratton, Fichaud, which were solid moves to provide veteran leadership while also being a major part of the team's success in losing the championship in one game. Can't overlook the moves he made to help the farm club, where it should pay off over the next few years. As for the Kovy deal, I would do it, Kovy is one of the top players in the NHL and will only get better. He's got the ability to score 60+ goals, something we sorely need. Tough to say how it pans out down the road. |
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Post by cousin nark on Jan 1, 2004 12:21:11 GMT -5
He's a "hotdog", and he strikes me as a selfish player with a poor attitude. But I admit, I haven't followed him that closely, so perhaps I have judged him too quickly, but I'm still waiting for him to make me change my mind. The way he went down and stayed down the other night after taking a wrister off the foot, while Montreal turned the play up ice and scored was selfish, soft or both. He actually skated a bit and went down as the play moved up ice, probably thinking it would be blown down. |
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Post by blaise on Jan 1, 2004 14:09:27 GMT -5
Atlanta is ahead of the HABS ? for how long ? 2 points and one game in hand !!! At the start of the year, if I remember your posts correctly, the Rangers, the Sabres, and even the Blue Jackets were better teams than the Habs ... Oh well ... As for basing Savard's abilities as a GM on a couple of drafts, then judging Rejean Houle by the 1998 and 2000 drafts means the Reggie was a freaking genius !!! You should realize that when Heatley returns Atlanta will be a better team than the Habs. They certainly would have more points today than they already do had he been available. Why do you ignore the trade with Washington that brought the Habs Zednik, Bulis, and Perezhogin? Why do you ignore the deal with Edmonton that brought in Claude Julien? You don't think that was a great move? Aside from his settling down the team after the Therrien tempest, he was responsible for developing a number of the prospects in Hamilton. Do you think either Ryder or Ward would be playing for the Canadiens without exposure to Julien? The 1998 and 2000 drafts hardly stamps Houle as a genius, freaking or otherwise. Not a single player from the 2000 draft is playing in Montréal today. Hainsey probably will some day, but I'm not so sure about the other 1st round pick, Hossa. Josef Balej is a possibility. Last night, Tomas Plekanec, Savard's 3rd round pick in 2001, showed he belongs in the NHL. In the long run he may prove to be at least comparable to Ribeiro in 1998. In that same year, the genius Houle also chose Chouinard in the 1st round. Messing up a 1st round pick is hard to forget. As for picking Markov, I think that's counterbalanced by the selection of Komisarek. Still in reserve are Higgins, Perzhogin, Kastsitsyn, Urquhart, and others. In 3 drafts Savard helped the Habs more than Houle did in 6. |
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Post by BadCompany on Jan 2, 2004 11:54:07 GMT -5
Freaking media stealing our threads again.  From RDS: "Ilya Kovalchouk, Andre Savard did everything to get him." www.rds.ca/canadien/chroniques/HOCKEYLNHCAN3FF4BA7A.htmlInteresting, that RDS says the offer was Garon, our 1st round pick (7th overall) and "three other players, who they refuse to identify..." |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 2, 2004 12:28:05 GMT -5
What was the deal on the table back then? Markov, Garon plus 2 1st round picks, which turned out to be Mike Komisarek and Alex Perezhogin? Was there anybody else. Did we give ATL the choice of taking Theodore? I think you're right in that the Habs offered Theodore at the last minute to sort of sweeten the pot. And, there was talk of Savard possibly adding more, but who's to say? I'm wondering if Atlanta finally decided to hold on the Kovolchuk because if the impact offer they received from Montreal. Such an offer might have led Atlanta management to think twice as to why an excellent judge of talent, like Savard, covets their draft pick so much. One other thing I think of from time to time is how would have Kovoluchuk adapted to the "royal spoil" he would have gotten in Montreal. We're talking about a young kid that Savard was willing to pay the farm for. I understand that he's an impact forward and all, but I'm wondering how much Kolochuk's ego would have inflated by going to Montreal. I mean, he would have been on every lunch pail, sweat shirt, poster, calendar yadda, yadda, yadda ... What I'm really trying to say is would he have turned into an Eric Lindros primadona? He may not have in Atlanta, but they have enough young bucks, Heatley, et al, to take some of that limelight away from him. Don't get me wrong, I would have appreciated his talents in Montreal, but the team is finally back in the right direction now. Back then, Savard was just starting out and making his pitch with the best of intentions. Would have Kovolchuk's acquisition helped? Yes, I firmly believe so. But, I also think retaining the players we have now is facilitating the new direction the club wants to take as well. Cheers. |
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