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Post by montreal on Apr 22, 2004 15:36:58 GMT -5
Good point, but comparing CSKA-2 to the CHL leagues is absolutely fine by me. I'd be willing to bet most if not all of us have never seen a game of CSKA-2 or the first league, so any comparisons are tough to make, no? |
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Post by Skilly on Apr 22, 2004 17:11:27 GMT -5
Certainly you would agree that Russian Super League Farm Clubs have some pretty good talent in them? Possibly. But I would also bet that our farm teams over here have had some good players who racked up points, and eventually amounted to nothing. I am not saying Kastsitsyn will be nothing, I am one who can't wait to see him play. But playing in a no-check league on a huge ice surface is not the NHL or the AHL is all I am saying. There is a reason why Hayley Wickenheiser did not accept the offer to play on a man's team here in North America (Tampa wasn't it?) and elected to play tier 2 in Finland.Where did you see these rankings? www.iihf.comKastitsyin, by all accounts, played great in that tournament, against teams like Canada, Russia, the US, and so on. Belarus only played in the qualifying round. They lost to Canada 3-0, US 2-1, and Latvia 4-0. As I remember they would have been blown out of the water if not for their goalie, Andrei Mezin. Againstthe "big boys" he could have had all of one point. Againstthe weak sister in the relagation round they beat Japan 3-1, beat Slovenia 4-3, and lost to the US 4-2. The US really sucked last year and played with about 8 NHLers and 12 AHLer's. Let's leave that US team out of "good competition" .... the leading scorer was John Pohl of the Worcester IcecatsTeams like Latvia and Denmark never came close to playing in Division 1, let alone twice in 3 years (or 3 in 4 years, what have you). They are there this year which is why they rank higherBelarus was also ranked sufficiently high enough to have earned a berth to the Salt Lake City Olympics. Or have you forgotten the infamous Tommy Salo goal? I have admitted Belarus is a team on the rise, but that was the luckiest goal in the history of hockey and Salo stops it 9 times out of 10. Sweden was one of the few good competition they played. But like you said AK was not on that team. Mute point.Kastitsyin has already played against this “better” competition you keep talking about. Who?Andrei Kastsitsyn, Belarus: He could be sleeper of the upcoming draft. With very little in the way of supporting players around him, he dominated each and every shift he took at the World Junior Championship, despite taking a constant mugging. If Belarus had more players like him, or more who tried as hard as he did, then the country would have not gone winless and been relegated to the world B Pool.Proves my point about the quality of hockey player in BelarusHis name was made playing against the Big Boys of international hockey, very limitedly ..... I would rather see how he does in a North American rink playing the North American game before I say he is the next "great thing" to hit Montreal. I think he is a good player, I have no problem admitting he had talent, he has shown it over there ...... I just feel that the competition he has faced is an issue. surely you would agree that the farm clubs of the best teams in Russia provide very good competition? No, not without seeing them first. Would you say the Atlantic City Boardwalk Bullies is good hockey competition? |
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Post by Montrealer on Apr 22, 2004 20:15:23 GMT -5
You need to see the Russian second-tier league to be able to figure out if it compares to the junior leagues here in Canada?
Do you need to see the oxygen in the air, too?
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Post by BadCompany on Apr 22, 2004 21:09:27 GMT -5
Possibly. But I would also bet that our farm teams over here have had some good players who racked up points, and eventually amounted to nothing.
Of course they do. But only a handful of those guys were drafted top 10 in strong drafts, and have international scouting bureaus calling them the best talents in the draft. These are the people who have seen him play.
I am not saying Kastsitsyn will be nothing, I am one who can't wait to see him play. But playing in a no-check league on a huge ice surface is not the NHL or the AHL is all I am saying. There is a reason why Hayley Wickenheiser did not accept the offer to play on a man's team here in North America (Tampa wasn't it?) and elected to play tier 2 in Finland.
There were no offers for Hayley Wickenheiser to play in North America, and certainly not for Tampa. You're thinking Manon Rheaume. Hayley played 4th line minutes in Finland - if that - and aside from faceoff winning percentage, was largely indistinguished there.
Belarus only played in the qualifying round. They lost to Canada 3-0, US 2-1, and Latvia 4-0. As I remember they would have been blown out of the water if not for their goalie, Andrei Mezin. Againstthe "big boys" he could have had all of one point. Againstthe weak sister in the relagation round they beat Japan 3-1, beat Slovenia 4-3, and lost to the US 4-2. The US really sucked last year and played with about 8 NHLers and 12 AHLer's. Let's leave that US team out of "good competition" .... the leading scorer was John Pohl of the Worcester Icecats
Kastitsyin is also only 18 years old, playing against 8 NHLers and 12 AHLers. And yet this doesn't compare to our JUNIOR leagues?
They are there this year which is why they rank higher.
They are ranked higher because they finished 1st in Pool B. Belarus finished last in Pool A. Once demoted to Pool B, Belarus cleaned up, and was quickly back in Pool A.
I have admitted Belarus is a team on the rise, but that was the luckiest goal in the history of hockey and Salo stops it 9 times out of 10. Sweden was one of the few good competition they played. But like you said AK was not on that team. Mute point.
They didn't award Belarus an Olympic berth just because there was a chance they were going to score the luckiest goal in the history of hockey. They were in the Olympics because their national program was good enough to qualify as one of the best hockey nations in the world. Not THE best, but top 10. Kastitsyin wasn't there, but you were saying that it doesn't matter how well he plays in Belarus, because as a rule that country isn't very good in hockey. Obviously that isn't true, as they were in the Olympics. So if they made the Olympics, they must have good players, and if they have good players, then Kastitsyin must be playing against them, and if he is playing against them, that kind of renders YOUR point moot, that he never played against stiff competition.
Who?
The best juniors in Canada, US, Russia, Sweden, the best non-NHL Russian players in the Russian Super League (Zherdev and Sergei Berezin were his teammates), the second best league in Russia, Belarus National Championships, and so on.
Proves my point about the quality of hockey player in Belarus.
He dominated each and every shift he took.
Miss that part? Playing against the best junior aged players in Canada, US, Sweden, Russia, Slovakia and he dominated each and every shift. Do those countries not provide enough competition for your liking?
very limitedly ..... I would rather see how he does in a North American rink playing the North American game before I say he is the next "great thing" to hit Montreal. I think he is a good player, I have no problem admitting he had talent, he has shown it over there ...... I just feel that the competition he has faced is an issue.
I still don't see how you can think he has faced limited competition. Has Nikolai Zherdev faced "limited competition?" How about Kovalchuk? He's played against the best players of his age, and dominated. He's played against the best players in his country, and dominated. He's played against the second best players in Russia, and dominated. The ONLY place he hasn't dominated, is the Super League, and there are issues with the coach in that regards (as Zherdev - 4 points can tell you).
No, not without seeing them first. Would you say the Atlantic City Boardwalk Bullies is good hockey competition?
Are the Atlantic City Boardwalk Bullies comprised of ex and borderline NHL players? Because if they are, then I would agree. Sergie Berezin, Oleg Tverdovsky, Nikolai Zherdev, Valerie Kamensky - those are some of the guys Kastitsyin has played with and against this year. Any of those guys play in Atlantic City?
CSB had Kastitsyin ranked as the 3rd best European skater, behind Zherdev (4th overall) and Michalek (6th overall).
Red Line Report said that if they had to pick one player in the 2003 draft to build a team around, it would be Kastsitsyin.
USA Today said this: 10. Montreal, F Andrei Kastsitsyn. If not for concern about his epilepsy, he could have been a top-five pick. One of the most talented players in the draft.
Pierre Gauthier watched him play earlier this season, and came away positively glowing with praise, saying "I've seen many players in my time but I do not remember seeing a kid with so many arsenal in his shot. Slap shot, wrist shot, one timer, he has all the tools to succeed; skating, puck handling and more, I was told he was one of the better.
Talents from the draft and I after seeing him play I can confirm he's extremely blessed and skilled with a lot of talent. Usually we wait until the off season to offer a contact but basically to evaluate him more but in his case we already know the contract will be offered very quickly…<br>
Asked if he would have an immediate impact at the NHL Level Gauthier responded…In his case he will have to adjust to the North American style of hockey.
I don't know, man. Everyone who has seen him play seems to rave about him. Only those who judge him purely on Super League statistics, without ever seeing him, seem to think he isn't anything special...
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Post by montreal on Apr 22, 2004 21:30:50 GMT -5
You need to see the Russian second-tier league to be able to figure out if it compares to the junior leagues here in Canada? Do you need to see the oxygen in the air, too? Yes I need to see them play. I've seen about 5 RSL games thanks to Tattac. : but I really don't know too much about the talent level in the upper or first league outside of what I've read and people I have talked to. btw, the oxygen thing makes no sense. We are talking about something tangable. It's simple we are in north america talking about a league no one's seen in action, so it's not hard to think that any comparisons should be taken lightly. |
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Post by Rimmer on Apr 23, 2004 3:41:35 GMT -5
I also never said that Kastsitsyn wasn't the best Belarussian player (In fact he probably is the best Belarussian player ever) That isn't true, at least not yet  . I don't know anything about the history of Belarussian hockey but Salei and Tsyplakov are those who have/had NHL careers and Koltsov has played for Pittsburg this year. there are many others (Skabelka, Shabanov, Kaluzhny, Kmyl, etc.) who play in the second strongest league in the world, the russian Superleague.Latvia, Austria, Ukraine, Denmark, Kazakastan, and France are all reanked higher in the wrold rankings than Belarus. I'm afraid that's not entirely correct. what you have seen and posted here are not the official IIHF rankings, but instead the power rankings made for this year's WC by the organizers based on the reported rosters for every participating country. the official IIHF rankings can be found here:www.iihf.com/news/IIHF_Vol8No2.pdfso Belarus is at the 13th place, behind Germany, Latvia, Switzerland, Ukraine and Austria (Epsen Knutsen, Byron Dafoe, Owen Nolan and that's it. And only Knutsen plays for his home country.) he (Knutsen) didn't this year. btw, there is a player on the Norway team, Patrick Thoresen, who seems like a very good player (led his team at this year's DivI group A WC with 4g, 5a in 5 games). he played for two years in QMJHL and he went undrafted 2 years ago, I think but he looks a lot better than some of our other european prospects. here's a link to his stats:www.eurohockey.net/players/index.cgi?page=search_player.mpl%3Ffirstname%3D%26lastname%3DThoresenand here is his HF profile:www.hockeysfuture.com/prospect.php?pid=3270 anyway, shouldn't this be moved and discussed at the 'Prospects' section? R. |
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Post by Rimmer on Apr 23, 2004 3:53:57 GMT -5
The best juniors in Canada, US, Russia, Sweden, the best non-NHL Russian players in the Russian Super League (Zherdev and Sergei Berezin were his teammates), the second best league in Russia, Belarus National Championships, and so on. this, I think, is not true (that Andrei played in the second best league in Russia). well, actually it could be true if the russian junior players are better than those playing in the Upper or Visshaya league (a step lower than the Superleague) but I'm not sure that is the case. we already had this discussion on the prospects board. It is the Superleague, Upper (higher or vysshaya) League and then First ( pervaya) league and some others. As you know CSKA plays in the Superleague. CSKA-2 plays in the First league, which is one step lower than the Upper League. R. |
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Post by Montrealer on Apr 23, 2004 8:58:58 GMT -5
Yes I need to see them play. I've seen about 5 RSL games thanks to Tattac. : but I really don't know too much about the talent level in the upper or first league outside of what I've read and people I have talked to. btw, the oxygen thing makes no sense. We are talking about something tangable. It's simple we are in north america talking about a league no one's seen in action, so it's not hard to think that any comparisons should be taken lightly. Based on what you write, Dan, I would agree, in your specific case. For a general fan, though, I don't see the point on freaking out over not actually witnessing games in every single possible NHL-bound development league in the world. You can generalize based on statisical analysis and historical performance of draftees from those leagues - the only time you get into trouble is a league that has not provided many draftees to the NHL in the past. Since Russia has provided the NHL with numerous players, you can guesstimate the potential performance of someone who plays there. A good example of a place that can trip you up is Switzerland, since the history isn't really there - but hell, it trips up the NHL scouts too (remember Edmonton drafting Riesen?) In any case, I depend on scouting reports because I don't live in Russia and don't have access to CSKA-2 games. Like I said, for the average fan that should be fine. |
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Post by Skilly on Apr 23, 2004 19:22:36 GMT -5
anyway, shouldn't this be moved and discussed at the 'Prospects' section? R. Thamks for the info. |
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Post by Skilly on Apr 23, 2004 19:34:51 GMT -5
Hayley Wickenheiser was offered a try out with a North American team. I wouldn't confuse Manan Rheaume (a goalie) with Hayley. I believe it was an ECHL team or lower league. She refused the try-out saying her body is not ready for contact, and would rather play in a tier three European league with little to no contact. About a month later Salamaat came a calling ...... then when Salamaat got promoted to the tier two league (more contact) Hayley was either cut or did not want to play (depending on what press you believe).
Good rebutal about Katsistyn. Again I reiterate, I am dying to see him play. I just am a little antcy about the competition he has played against. I would rather (selfishly I guess so I can see him) see him over here in the OHL or WHL, getting aclimated to the North American game. Ever scouting report I read says he has all the tools, is going to be a blue chip prospect, has to the potential to do it all, sky's the limit ..... then it ends with the perverbial but "he will take time to get accustomed to the North American game". Makes me wonder.
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Post by Skilly on Apr 23, 2004 19:36:55 GMT -5
Woman gets hockey tryout offer
The Associated Press
Canadian Olympic star Hayley Wickenheiser has a chance to become the first female position player in minor-league hockey.
The 23-year-old forward has been offered a 15-game tryout with the East Coast Hockey League's Cincinnati Cyclones.
Wickenheiser, 5-foot-9 and 170 pounds, tried to play professionally with men in Italy, but the country's winter sports federation ruled her ineligible.
"I know it's a tough league and a development league for the NHL," Wickenheiser said. "I don't think I would make a rush decision on it, for sure."
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Post by Skilly on Apr 23, 2004 19:38:38 GMT -5
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Apr 26, 2004 15:36:04 GMT -5
It's hard to translate play for a national team to play in the NHL.
If Rucinsky played in the NHL the way he put out for his National team, we wouldn't be sticking pins in his Bobblehead doll.
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Post by seventeen on Apr 26, 2004 23:29:15 GMT -5
Good rebutal about Katsistyn. Again I reiterate, I am dying to see him play. I just am a little antcy about the competition he has played against. Ever scouting report I read says he has all the tools, is going to be a blue chip prospect, has to the potential to do it all, sky's the limit ..... then it ends with the perverbial but "he will take time to get accustomed to the North American game". Makes me wonder. Don't sweat it. The 'accustomed part usually means 2 things...the rink is smaller so he has to get used to that, and the language is another. Perezhogin had the same issues and he's playing and scoring much better now than in the early part of the season. this guy's going to be great. |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Apr 27, 2004 10:43:54 GMT -5
Don't sweat it. The 'accustomed part usually means 2 things...the rink is smaller so he has to get used to that, and the language is another. Perezhogin had the same issues and he's playing and scoring much better now than in the early part of the season. this guy's going to be great. What is the secret ingredient that keeps Dyment threads alive much longer than expected, even when most of the posts have little to do with Asham, Dyment, Robidas and Chouinard? |
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. I don't know anything about the history of Belarussian hockey but Salei and Tsyplakov are those who have/had NHL careers and Koltsov has played for Pittsburg this year. there are many others (Skabelka, Shabanov, Kaluzhny, Kmyl, etc.) who play in the second strongest league in the world, the russian Superleague.
