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Post by BadCompany on Apr 26, 2012 7:05:11 GMT -5
Okay, I'm pretty sure I know what the answer to this will be, but I'm gonna throw it out there anyways. Because that's the wild and crazy kind of guy I am.
Dustin Penner, under $3 million (way under if possible), would you do it? I would seriously consider it, and here's why:
Yes, we know about his work ethic issues, and his weight issues, and yes, he is coming off a terrible year... but...
Anaheim, 2007: 29 goals
Anaheim, 2008: 23 goals
Edmonton, 2009: 19 goals
Edmonton, 2010: 32 goals
Edmonton, 2011: 21 goals (62 games)
LA, 2011: 2 goals (19 games)
LA, 2012: 7 goals
Seems to me that he has produced at a decent clip everywhere but LA. Maybe he's just not a good fit there. I wouldn't break the bank for him, but if we could get him on a 1-3 year contract, in the $1-3 million range... Heck, I'd probably go as high as $4 million on a one year deal and hope we've caught lightning in a bottle.
Anybody else interested?
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Post by franko on Apr 26, 2012 7:45:34 GMT -5
BC: haven't we had enough of floaters/collectors of paychecks/enigmas?
and $4M?
whatever it is that you are imbibing . . . don't pass it around.
[in other words, not interested].
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Post by BadCompany on Apr 26, 2012 8:04:32 GMT -5
Would you prefer to see Scott Gomez playing wing again next year?
I don't know man... I look at the UFA's available this year, and it's pretty brutal. After Parise it's a pretty big drop, and realistically what are the odds that he comes here? The talking heads on the radio have been saying that there is going to be a bidding war between Ottawa and Montreal for PA Parenteau.
PA Parenteau.
Really??
In my opinion we need two wingers for the second line, to replace the dearly departed Mike Cammalleri and Andrei Kostitsyin. Where are they going to come from? Without those wingers I can see us in a very mediocre 9th overall drafting spot next summer.
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Post by blny on Apr 26, 2012 8:34:39 GMT -5
No interest in Penner.
If Parise can't be signed, then you look for a trade. Gionta comes back next year, and that will help second line production quite a bit.
Pacioretty-DD-Cole
Bourque-Pleks-Gio
It's a more complete group. If you can land Parise, it looks more like this:
Pacioretty-DD-Cole
Parise-Pleks-Gio
Bourque-Eller-Moen(re-signed).
The second line isn't big in stature, but you can move players around in it if you need to. The third line is a winner imo. I can't think of too many that can produce more offense, or at least have the potential to.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Apr 26, 2012 11:37:43 GMT -5
Without those wingers I can see us in a very mediocre 9th overall drafting spot next summer. IMO the Penner/Parenteau options to round up your top 6 are a step down from the Cammalleri/Kostytsin options that we had and arguably a step down from the Bourque/Gionta options that we have… IE, IMO, you’re looking at a top 10 pick next year with them anyhoo. So the question becomes do you patch up this edition with the mediocre UFA options available in hopes to hover in the middle of the pack with a bunch of vets, if everything goes well. Seems all too familiar to me. Or do you start from fresh this year, invest quality icetime in Eller, Leblanc, maybe Gallagher… Leblanc was on the top 6 of Team Canada, he's got skills, he's got character, he's a first rounder... ….heck maybe our Grigorenko/Galchenyuk/Forsberg of this year can pull a Karlsson/Couturier for us…Maybe trade Plekanec/Gionta/Markov along the way to get a quality winger. And by all means if at the end of the day we end up with a top 10 pick next year, we’ll at least have the impression of having invested a season towards developing something and moving forward… I personally don’t think this team is a few easy quick fixes away from respectability. While a revamp in management was much overdue, I personally feel one is due at ice level as well. Patching Gainey/Gauthier failed lineup wouldn't be my plan personally. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Apr 26, 2012 12:25:18 GMT -5
I think that's right. If our best options are Dustin Penner and PA Parenteau...... well, I'd just as soon go with the cheaper options we already have.
Cole/DD/MaxPac
Bourque/Pleks/Gionta
Leblanc/Eller/Gallagher
Darche/White/Blunden....Gomez
If the opportunity is there to make a significant upgrade, then fine. But I'd rather see what guys like Leblanc and Gallagher (who I can see making the jump to the NHL next year). Then you use the cap savings this year to lock up Price to a 5-year, $20-25 million deal.
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Post by BadCompany on Apr 26, 2012 13:09:06 GMT -5
I think that's right. If our best options are Dustin Penner and PA Parenteau...... well, I'd just as soon go with the cheaper options we already have. Cole/DD/MaxPac Bourque/Pleks/Gionta Leblanc/Eller/Gallagher Darche/White/Blunden....Gomez If the opportunity is there to make a significant upgrade, then fine. But I'd rather see what guys like Leblanc and Gallagher (who I can see making the jump to the NHL next year). Then you use the cap savings this year to lock up Price to a 5-year, $20-25 million deal. I think that lineup would have serious depth issues. What happens when - not if - injuries hit? There is nobody to call up, nobody to step in. I also like the idea of Bourque and Gionta with Eller. Call it your third line, your 2b line, whatever. But I think Gionta and Bourque would give Eller some offensive options, and Gionta's work ethic would hopefully rub off somewhat on Bourque. I also get that we don't want to patch these holes with long term, concrete deals. But I do think they need to be patched from outside the organization, which is why I think targetting guys who underachieved last season is a viable strategy. Maybe you can get them cheaper, and for shorter lengths so that they don't block your Grigorenko/Galchenyuk/Forsberg/Gallagher in the future. If they could be signed to one-two years deals, max three, I'd be okay with this: Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole Penner - Plekanec - Semin Bourque - Eller - Gionta Moen - White - Leblanc That's some solid depth if you ask me, with size and skill on each line. Sure, there is some character issues there (allegedly) but let's worry about getting back to the playoffs first, before we worry about whether we can win it all. And if guy like Gallagher or Leblanc outplays somebody like Penner or Bourque, then so be it. You can relegate those guys to the pressbox and/or the minors. We all know lineups change 50-60 times a week anyways, so I wouldn't get too hung up on where somebody is on the depth chart. As long as there is some depth there I think it will all work out. |
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Post by franko on Apr 26, 2012 13:26:46 GMT -5
Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole Penner - Plekanec - Semin Bourque - Eller - Gionta Moen - White - Leblanc poor Pleks. may as well leave LL in the AHL if he's going play on the 4th line, let him get ice time with scoring opportunities. and yes, I realize that I'm not giving better alternatives. yet. |
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Post by BadCompany on Apr 26, 2012 13:45:30 GMT -5
Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole Penner - Plekanec - Semin Bourque - Eller - Gionta Moen - White - Leblanc poor Pleks. may as well leave LL in the AHL if he's going play on the 4th line, let him get ice time with scoring opportunities. and yes, I realize that I'm not giving better alternatives. yet. Well Semin, in the worst year of his career, still had more points than Plekanec. His 21 goals would have put him 3rd on our team, behind the bash brothers. Sad, but true. And while Penner had a disastrous year by all accounts, he did score 23 the year before, which puts him on par with anybody else we could currently put on Plekanec's wing. As for Leblanc, like I said the lineups change every second minute, and with injuries he'll get his chance with some offensive players. And when that happens, and if he runs with it, then all the better. But right now who do we call up once somebody gets hurt? Andreas Enqvist? Aaron Palushaj? SCOTT GOMEZ?? |
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Post by franko on Apr 26, 2012 13:54:45 GMT -5
so by your reasoning we should give Gomer another shot because he had a disastrous year and can't get worse? [well I guess he can -- he might only get one goal!]
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Post by BadCompany on Apr 26, 2012 14:14:18 GMT -5
Not at all. Gomez is 3-5 years older than either of Semin or Penner, makes a good $4 million more than what I proposed and has had declining production for a couple of years now. Semin has had one bad year, and Penner, as I pointed out in my original post, seems to do okay anywhere outside of LA. Gomez has had one season where he has scored more than 16 goals, Semin's WORST season was 21, and Penner averages about 22, which includes last year's 7 goals. Discount last year and Penner averages about 25.
We were a mediocre team WITH Cammalleri and Kostitsyin's goals. They need to be replaced, or it's going to be a long, long season...
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Post by Boston_Habs on Apr 26, 2012 14:43:29 GMT -5
I think that's right. If our best options are Dustin Penner and PA Parenteau...... well, I'd just as soon go with the cheaper options we already have. Cole/DD/MaxPac Bourque/Pleks/Gionta Leblanc/Eller/Gallagher Darche/White/Blunden....Gomez If the opportunity is there to make a significant upgrade, then fine. But I'd rather see what guys like Leblanc and Gallagher (who I can see making the jump to the NHL next year). Then you use the cap savings this year to lock up Price to a 5-year, $20-25 million deal. I think that lineup would have serious depth issues. What happens when - not if - injuries hit? There is nobody to call up, nobody to step in. No argument there. I don't think the lineup I posted is a playoff team. There's still a major problem with secondary scoring. As it stands now, we have one line that can score with any consistency. Getting Gionta back will help, but Bourque is a question mark and my hypothetical 3rd line sounds great in theory, but totally inexperienced. We're at a bit of a crossroads. I thought going into this season, we would be contenders. I don't feel that way going into next year, unless something changes. Adding a guy like Semin is tempting, although I wouldn't want to commit long-term to him - not consistent enough, and he doesn't play a complete game. I'm assuming we have no shot to add a guy like Parise or Suter. So failing that, I am still open to dealing our #3 pick for a player that will immediately vault us into the top 4/5 of the conference. #3 pick + Rene Bourque + prospect for Eric Staal? I salivate over Ryan Getzlaf and/or Corey Perry in Anaheim, but both those guys will be UFAs next year. Do you do something CRAZY and package the #3 pick for Corey Perry and hope you can sign him? Cole/Pleks/Pacioretty Perry/Plekanec/Gionta Bourque/Eller/Leblanc Darche/White/Blunden/Gomez Now THAT's a potential top tier team. Two serious lines that can score and a 3rd line with upside. |
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Post by sergejean on Apr 26, 2012 15:04:33 GMT -5
Without those wingers I can see us in a very mediocre 9th overall drafting spot next summer. IMO the Penner/Parenteau options to round up your top 6 are a step down from the Cammalleri/Kostytsin options that we had and arguably a step down from the Bourque/Gionta options that we have… IE, IMO, you’re looking at a top 10 pick next year with them anyhoo. So the question becomes do you patch up this edition with the mediocre UFA options available in hopes to hover in the middle of the pack with a bunch of vets, if everything goes well. Seems all too familiar to me. Or do you start from fresh this year, invest quality icetime in Eller, Leblanc, maybe Gallagher… Leblanc was on the top 6 of Team Canada, he's got skills, he's got character, he's a first rounder... ….heck maybe our Grigorenko/Galchenyuk/Forsberg of this year can pull a Karlsson/Couturier for us…Maybe trade Plekanec/Gionta/Markov along the way to get a quality winger. And by all means if at the end of the day we end up with a top 10 pick next year, we’ll at least have the impression of having invested a season towards developing something and moving forward… I personally don’t think this team is a few easy quick fixes away from respectability. While a revamp in management was much overdue, I personally feel one is due at ice level as well. Patching Gainey/Gauthier failed lineup wouldn't be my plan personally. I agree with you. We are currently far, far away from being a Stanley Cup contender. Yes, we could squeak into the playoffs next year if everything goes right. Realistically though, it will be very difficult. Might as well invest in our future and if this means we end up finishing around the same position as this year, then so be it. At least 2013 seems to have at least 2 elite players to grab at the draft table. And while we're at it, if we choose to rebuild, I would consider dangling all the veterans except for Cole who I'd like to keep around to mentor the young ones. Try to get as many picks and good prospects in the process and aim for the playoffs in 2014 with the hope of being a strong contender by 2017. Some will argue that Philly or even Ottawa were able to rebuild on a dime so that the same should apply to us. I say our reality is different. We don't have a Carter or Richards that we can flip for depth and prospects. Cammy, Gomez and Gionta should have been these guys with enough value to get 1st rounder + and allow us to rebuild on the fly. Regretfully, we saw all too well what Cammy value was... |
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Post by CentreHice on Apr 26, 2012 15:11:12 GMT -5
Semin would appear to have done his job vs. the Bruins.
3 goals (team leader), including 2 PP goals and an OT game winner...and only 4 PIMs.
But....he was a -3 over the 7 games. Not saying they were his fault....
If, however, he continues to produce in the playoffs, the Caps might want to keep him.
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Post by HFTO on Apr 26, 2012 16:28:34 GMT -5
Philly has drafted and stock piled well and to their credit they flipped core players who had off ice issues for younger cheaper players and did not miss a beat.
IMO pro-active Gm's can change the nature of a team..the only thong that will hold them back is potentially goaltending for some reason Philly can't evaluate goaltenders.
In Ottawa they ejected vets for younger players put in a dynamic communicator behind the bench and they took off to everyone's surprise.
Honestly with the right GM and coach it could happen here very easily especially since we have three key players many teams don't have in place...Patches Subban Price.
If Geoff Molson does his due diligence this team with the right moves could make a serious turnaround, and be contenders in a couple three years.
HFTO
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Post by blny on Apr 26, 2012 19:06:16 GMT -5
..the only thong that will hold them back is ... HFTO I hate it when thongs get in the way. |
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Post by BadCompany on Apr 27, 2012 8:51:35 GMT -5
I think that lineup would have serious depth issues. What happens when - not if - injuries hit? There is nobody to call up, nobody to step in. No argument there. I don't think the lineup I posted is a playoff team. There's still a major problem with secondary scoring. As it stands now, we have one line that can score with any consistency. Getting Gionta back will help, but Bourque is a question mark and my hypothetical 3rd line sounds great in theory, but totally inexperienced. We're at a bit of a crossroads. I thought going into this season, we would be contenders. I don't feel that way going into next year, unless something changes. Adding a guy like Semin is tempting, although I wouldn't want to commit long-term to him - not consistent enough, and he doesn't play a complete game. I'm assuming we have no shot to add a guy like Parise or Suter. So failing that, I am still open to dealing our #3 pick for a player that will immediately vault us into the top 4/5 of the conference. #3 pick + Rene Bourque + prospect for Eric Staal? I salivate over Ryan Getzlaf and/or Corey Perry in Anaheim, but both those guys will be UFAs next year. Do you do something CRAZY and package the #3 pick for Corey Perry and hope you can sign him? Cole/Pleks/Pacioretty Perry/Plekanec/Gionta Bourque/Eller/Leblanc Darche/White/Blunden/Gomez Now THAT's a potential top tier team. Two serious lines that can score and a 3rd line with upside. I think that if you're going to dangle the 3rd overall then Columbus and Rick Nash would be the most logical starting point. Don't know what else it would take, but start with the 3rd overall, and our 2nd round pick to get their attention. They'd have the 2nd and 3rd picks in the draft, and they could use our 2nd rounder to get Edmonton to guarantee that they won't take Yakupov. That way they could get both Galchenyuk and Yakupov, which might mitigate the "Russian" factor, seeing as they are good friends and linemates and all that. It would be similar to when Burke drafted both the Sedins, only Galchenyuk and Yakupov are brothers-from-another-mother. Nash would give Plekanec a legitimate scoring winger for a change and might make it easier to sign another winger as a free agent, if they thought they had a chance to play with him. Parise would still be a long shot, but maybe Ryan Smyth on a one-year deal? He's played a lot with Nash internationally, so maybe that would be a bit of a draw? Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole Smyth - Plekanec - Nash Bourque - Eller - Gionta Moen - White - Leblanc Works for me. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Apr 27, 2012 9:26:29 GMT -5
I'd do something like that. I'm tired of the 3 year plans. I'm sensitive to dealing away a potential star, but if we can be contenders NOW then I'm all for it.
We have lots of guys on this team that you want to maximize. We already wasted a great year from Erik Cole. Do we want to waste another? Same with Plekanec, Price, Markov, Subban.... if we can win now with these guys, I want to do it.
Adding Rick Nash ($7.8m cap hit for the next 6 years) would do that. The question would be the cost. The #3 pick + our 2nd + Rene Bourque (to offset some of the salary) + a prospect (would probably need to be Tinordi or Beaulieu).... I'd do it.
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Post by blny on Apr 27, 2012 9:48:48 GMT -5
Nash has a ltd nmc. I don't think Montreal is on his radar. I also think the price would be too high for what we'd get in return. While Pleks would perhaps be the best center he'd have ever played with, he's never lit the world on fire for points. Considering what it would take to get him, I think he should be able to put up close to a point a game on his own. He's only done that once in his career, and his numbers have gone down every year since.
Were I to make and offer, at this point, I'd offer the following:
3rd overall
2nd rounder
roster player (Bourque/Kaberle)
2013 2nd rounder
I don't want to part with either Tinordi or Beaulieu. If they want to look at Pateryn or Bennett, fine.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Apr 27, 2012 11:17:21 GMT -5
Adding Rick Nash ($7.8m cap hit for the next 6 years) would do that. The question would be the cost. The #3 pick + our 2nd + Rene Bourque (to offset some of the salary) + a prospect (would probably need to be Tinordi or Beaulieu).... I'd do it. Unless Howson’s demands took a drop, around the deadline the price was a top 6, a first and a top prospect. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Apr 27, 2012 12:08:24 GMT -5
Adding Rick Nash ($7.8m cap hit for the next 6 years) would do that. The question would be the cost. The #3 pick + our 2nd + Rene Bourque (to offset some of the salary) + a prospect (would probably need to be Tinordi or Beaulieu).... I'd do it. Unless Howson’s demands took a drop, around the deadline the price was a top 6, a first and a top prospect. Then no way. The only way you add a guy like Nash is if you can avoid subtracting too much from the current team. If they want a guy like Pacioretty PLUS the #3 pick PLUS a top prospect, then they can keep him. Heck, I think Pacioretty may be a better player than Nash right now. |
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Post by BadCompany on Apr 27, 2012 12:20:34 GMT -5
Unless Howson’s demands took a drop, around the deadline the price was a top 6, a first and a top prospect. Then no way. The only way you add a guy like Nash is if you can avoid subtracting too much from the current team. If they want a guy like Pacioretty PLUS the #3 pick PLUS a top prospect, then they can keep him. Heck, I think Pacioretty may be a better player than Nash right now. Depends on how you look at it, I suppose. I don't give up Pacioretty either, but our 3rd overall has to be considered a top 6 player, no? And our 2nd rounder is high enough that it's almost a 1st rounder, and while close only counts in horse-shoes and hand grenades it shouldn't be that hard to sweeten that aspect of things. The top prospect would hurt, but you gotta give to get. I wouldn't give up either of Tinordi or Beaulieu, but Gallagher? As much as I like Gallagher - and I do like him - you again, gotta give to get. All depends on what Timmins thinks of the potential of the 3rd overall pick of course, but if we decide to put it on the market I think the 3rd overall, our 2nd rounder, Gallagher and say somebody like Avstin or Kristo would be "fair" based on the criteria outlined by Howson. You'd probably have to expand it to include one of Kaberle or Gomez (both?) for cap purposes, but it's a competitive offer, in my opinion. More than competitive. |
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Post by blny on Apr 27, 2012 13:55:21 GMT -5
It's all about bang for the buck, and I just don't think Nash delivers enough bang for the buck he makes and the 'bucks' it would cost to get him.
I would move Gallagher before either Tinordi or Beaulieu. Even though Gallagher looks like a better Gionta to me, we can afford to look at moving a small player. I believe Brendan would be a first rounder this year. Injury and the WJC kept him from a third season of 100pts. That doesn't happen very often in the "Dub".
Maybe you angle Howson to look at it like he's got #2, and gets #3, would he have the assets to go after #1 from Edmonton? He get's the first and second picks and takes teammates Yakupov and Galchenyuk. Edmonton gets their D they need. We get a big body power forward.
3rd overall
Gallagher in lieu of 2nd this year
2013 2nd rounder
Bourque/Kaberle
That would be my max offer.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Apr 27, 2012 14:41:29 GMT -5
It's all about bang for the buck, and I just don't think Nash delivers enough bang for the buck he makes and the 'bucks' it would cost to get him. I would move Gallagher before either Tinordi or Beaulieu. Even though Gallagher looks like a better Gionta to me, we can afford to look at moving a small player. I believe Brendan would be a first rounder this year. Injury and the WJC kept him from a third season of 100pts. That doesn't happen very often in the "Dub". Maybe you angle Howson to look at it like he's got #2, and gets #3, would he have the assets to go after #1 from Edmonton? He get's the first and second picks and takes teammates Yakupov and Galchenyuk. Edmonton gets their D they need. We get a big body power forward. 3rd overall Gallagher in lieu of 2nd this year 2013 2nd rounder Bourque/Kaberle That would be my max offer. Good post. I would probably do that deal, although I am intrigued by Gallagher as a future Brian Gionta. The cap hit for a guy like Nash hurts, but you look around the league and production isn't what it used to be. In the old days, "elite" was 40-50 goals, 100+ points. This year the NHL had one player with more than 100 points (Malkin), only 3 players with more than 90 points (Malkin, Stamkos, Giroux) and the 10th leading points guy was Patrik Elias with 78 points. Really? Nash is 27 years old so at least the cap hit runs during his prime, he's never played on a good team, but he's pretty much a lock for 30 goals and has twice scored 40. Add to that a 6-4 frame and 220 lbs, and all of a sudden we would have one of the biggest forward groups in the league.... Cole, Pacioretty, Nash, Eller to go along with Plekanec, Desharnais, and Gionta. That would be a total 180 from the smurf team that Gainey put together and one that would be tough to play against. |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Apr 27, 2012 15:23:21 GMT -5
…I’ll just point out that Nash, as a CHL rookie, got 31goals/66pts and a rather disappointing playoff run.
...as a CHL rookie, Grigorenko has 40goals/85pts and he too didn’t have impressive playoffs.
…as a CHL rookie Galchenyuk got 31goals/83pts and no playoffs.
Nash never posted All Star stats in 7 NHL years.
IMO we greatly undervalue our pick.
Call me insane but in our situation I wouldn’t give our first straight up for Nash. Let alone our first and something else… If you ask me, that kind of deal would look a lot like the deal and the situation that got Kessel to Toronto.
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Post by blny on Apr 27, 2012 17:54:52 GMT -5
That's the rub. You have to determine as best you can if Nash in Montreal > the package you send the other way.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Apr 28, 2012 12:23:17 GMT -5
That's the rub. You have to determine as best you can if Nash in Montreal > the package you send the other way. In my mind Grigorenko = Malkin I wouldn't give that away for Nash. I've been hoping, praying wishing, for a big smooth skilled offensive center for over a decade... |
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Post by blny on Apr 28, 2012 14:25:47 GMT -5
That's the rub. You have to determine as best you can if Nash in Montreal > the package you send the other way. In my mind Grigorenko = Malkin I wouldn't give that away for Nash. I've been hoping, praying wishing, for a big smooth skilled offensive center for over a decade... Hard to say if maybe he was playing hurt, but he was thoroughly unimpressive against the Mooseheads. While hoping for Mooseheads victory, I was hoping to see a big presence. He was virtually a ghost. |
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Post by jkr on Apr 28, 2012 14:35:38 GMT -5
In my mind Grigorenko = Malkin I wouldn't give that away for Nash. I've been hoping, praying wishing, for a big smooth skilled offensive center for over a decade... Hard to say if maybe he was playing hurt, but he was thoroughly unimpressive against the Mooseheads. While hoping for Mooseheads victory, I was hoping to see a big presence. He was virtually a ghost. Lines up with what Roy said about him after the playoffs - lacks grit & not NHL ready. |
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Post by blny on Apr 28, 2012 15:24:17 GMT -5
Hard to say if maybe he was playing hurt, but he was thoroughly unimpressive against the Mooseheads. While hoping for Mooseheads victory, I was hoping to see a big presence. He was virtually a ghost. Lines up with what Roy said about him after the playoffs - lacks grit & not NHL ready. I don't know if you can ever learn that. It takes committment. Either you have it, or you don't. I'm not looking for a bruiser. I was just hoping to see a guy that was engaged. If he finished checks, and did other little things to contribute, you can at least live with the lack of production he had. |
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