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Post by Cranky on May 22, 2013 13:38:20 GMT -5
Taking the lead of our great liberal mind, our Dear Leader Obama, the Ministry Of Free Speech says that this is a man caused disaster and anyone who references it as terrorism or links it to the Religion of Peace will need to be helped by our Freedom Police to the nearest government education center. ~~~~~~~~~~ 'We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you': What man holding bloody cleaver said after 'hacking soldier in Help For Heroes T-shirt to death just yards from Woolwich barracks' Man tells camera: 'I apologise that women had to witness this today' Soldier attacked with meat cleavers and knives in Woolwich, SE London Eyewitness says: 'They were hacking at him, chopping him, cutting him' Two suspects waited until police arrived before trying to attack them Prime Minister David Cameron described the killing as 'truly shocking' Theresa May calls a meeting of Government emergency committee Cobra Suspects used 'a number of weapons' in attack, Metropolitan Police say By ROB COOPER, MARK DUELL and JAMES RUSH PUBLISHED: 14:49 GMT, 22 May 2013 | UPDATED: 18:28 GMT, 22 May 2013 A dramatic video tonight emerged of a man with bloodied hands, carrying knives and ranting 'We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you', after a serving soldier was hacked to death by two men just 200 yards from an Army barracks. The man can be seen and heard talking to the camera. The video came as terrified eyewitnesses saw two men shot by police marksmen after the machete attack in Woolwich, south-east London. The two men are thought to have waited around for 20 minutes until Metropolitan Police officers arrived and then tried to attack them - but were swiftly shot by armed policemen, including a woman. They apparently shouted 'Allah Akbar', which means 'God is great' in Arabic, and tried to film the attack, the BBC's political editor Nick Robinson said. More.... www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2329089/Woolwich-attack-Two-men-hack-soldier-wearing-Help-Heroes-T-shirt-death-machetes-suspected-terror-attack.html |
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Post by CentreHice on May 22, 2013 15:41:29 GMT -5
It's a man-caused disaster alright! Because "man" caused the dogma that produced it.
Every justification for persecution, torture, and murder in the name of a religion can be found within the "scripture" of the Abrahamic monotheisms....Judaism, Christianity, and Islam...in that order of appearance.
After the Boston Marathon bombing, the calming powers that be in the U.S. quoted from the Qu'uran...Surah 5, Verse 32. Seems to be a favourite.
Well, that verse pertains only to the "children of Israel". i.e. what Allah allows the Jews to do in their own land...Israel....which Allah gave to them.
What follows directly after that verse....is what Allah prescribes for his adherents, the Muslims. And it's not pretty. And it's this verse that gives the radicals the radical mindset: terrorism, killing civilians/infidels.
This video spells it out very clearly.
In no way am I painting all religious adherents with the same brush...as many are moderates who likely don't have a clue what their books really include...and they are peaceful people.
But we have to understand the scriptures/dogma/teachings that are behind the radicals....the beliefs that do the disastrous brainwashing.
Again, if this kind of post is out of bounds on this board....then I'll take it down...and PM anyone who'd like to talk more about it.
Serious stuff. Theocracies and theocratic law in this sense are nothing but totalitarian and barbaric.
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Post by Cranky on May 22, 2013 17:19:33 GMT -5
After I posted this, I called a US company for some industrial samples. The guy on the phone answered.....hi, this is Mohammed....which made me raise an eyebrow. What does the guy have in common with some apes half a planet away!
Yes, criticizing a religion for the actions of scum is not fair. On the other hand, neither can a religion be ignored if it's used as an excuse for terrorism. If nothing else, on too many occasions it points to the perpetrators.
The same thing for free speech. As a libertarian I cringe when I hear of the latest methods or laws to deal with the loonies, but then I see what passes as conversation.for them, shake my head and curse them for usurping the very foundations of human rights. Which begs the question, can and should you deal with them like humans if they don't act like ones?
Slippery slope or necessary evil to deal with evil?
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Post by franko on May 22, 2013 19:16:10 GMT -5
Again, if this kind of post is out of bounds on this board....then I'll take it down...and PM anyone who'd like to talk more about it. well, you know me . . . I'm always up for such a discussion . . . and via PM is fine. nope, I'll disagree with this one. you can say that religion [or religious interpretation] has been at the heart of much of the persecution, torture, and murder in this world, but you cannot limit it to these three. as you say, it's the radicals that interpret it this way. moderates don't, and many are offended by this mindset. unfortunately,either their voices are not loud enough, or they are just not saying anything loudly. or do have a clue and are offended by the interpretation. often the radicals are the ones heard -- or mentioned in the media. for example, Fred Phelps and his church are often front page news and have become the voice of the church in the US when it comes to homosexuality, even though he might speak for one or two percent of the Christian population. but that's another matter. agree wholeheartedly. know what they teach, know why they teach it, and have the moderates speak out loudly against it. theocracies tend to become dictatorships. |
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Post by CentreHice on May 22, 2013 20:04:26 GMT -5
nope, I'll disagree with this one. you can say that religion [or religious interpretation] has been at the heart of much of the persecution, torture, and murder in this world, but you cannot limit it to these three. I didn't limit it to those three. I said the justification for persecution, torture, and murder done "in the name of" those religions can be found/interpreted in the scriptures. Nothing to interpret from certain passages used....like the one cited above in the Qu'uran. And most moderates say nothing about it....for fear of certain retribution. Not only the threat of violence...but the promise of it. Fear for one's life, and for the lives of one's family, is quite the mouth-closer. My intention is not to get into a debate about religion per se....just to point out that there have been, and still are, factions that interpret and deliver it with destructive/megalomaniacal/apocalyptic leanings....and that it will take a concerted effort to fight it. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on May 22, 2013 21:06:59 GMT -5
Still, therer are too many agendas at play in this scenario. The UK government doesn't want to give any more attention to "terrorism" so they come up with another synonym. The media jumps on it and all of a sudden "terrorism" is on the front page.
The act is murder and that's the way it should be reported and referred to. If guilty at trial then the law should be upheld. But there's no money to made from that.
In this case I think words like "terrorism", or "man-caused disaster" are simply terms for agendas. It was murder.
Cheers.
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Post by CentreHice on May 22, 2013 21:33:18 GMT -5
Right, Dis...it IS murder...advocated and incited by the interpreted teachings found in a holy book, and that will never be reported as such by the mainstream media, or be a statement from those in power. Fear of violent retribution is at the core. "Terrorism" is the safe word, and the British PM used it today. However, the term "radicalized" is also being used more often....and that's a start. I was pleased to see the uncle of the Boston bombers refer to his nephews as radicalized. It'll take Muslims to speak out...if they're brave enough.
The Old Testament is also full of a god who advocates and commands mass murder, genocide, rape, and slavery for his chosen people. Read Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and Numbers.....it's all there. Safe to say much of that has faded away with the Enlightenment and scientific advances/discovery/knowledge....
....but radical Islam is still with us, big-time. They believe they will be rewarded in the afterlife for such diabolical acts. How malleable the human brain is if you get to it young or vulnerable enough. Take these same people and raise them in a culture that promotes peace....and they wouldn't even think of it.
It's so arbitrary.
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Post by franko on May 22, 2013 21:56:50 GMT -5
nope, I'll disagree with this one. you can say that religion [or religious interpretation] has been at the heart of much of the persecution, torture, and murder in this world, but you cannot limit it to these three. I didn't limit it to those three. I said the justification for persecution, torture, and murder done "in the name of" those religions can be found/interpreted in the scriptures. I guess it's just the way I read it: Every justification for persecution, torture, and murder in the name of a religion can be found within the "scripture" of the Abrahamic monotheisms....Judaism, Christianity, and Islam...in that order of appearance. thanks for the clarification. no disagreement there! |
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Post by franko on May 22, 2013 22:01:12 GMT -5
The Old Testament is also full of a god who advocates and commands mass murder, genocide, rape, and slavery for his chosen people. Read Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and Numbers.....it's all there. Safe to say much of that has faded away with the Enlightenment and scientific advances/discovery/knowledge.... ....but radical Islam is still with us, big-time. They believe they will be rewarded in the afterlife for such diabolical acts. How malleable the human brain is if you get to it young or vulnerable enough. Take these same people and raise them in a culture that promotes peace....and they wouldn't even think of it. A few years ago I read [can't remember who suggested] that Islam is 500 years behind Christianity . . . it just hasn't "grown up" yet . . . though having said that, there are those within all of the religions that have not/will not grow up. an aside: I'm reading Why the West Rules -- For Now by Ian Morris. interesting. |
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Post by CentreHice on May 22, 2013 22:14:22 GMT -5
Look at what one of the murderers is saying on camera:
"I'm sorry the women had to see something like this....but the women in our country see this all the time...." Who can say something like that after butchering another human being? Someone who has been brainwashed to the point that, to him, it's normal. Because it's accepted in their country as law. They're raised that way from infancy. If any one of us was born into that culture, we'd most likely think the same way. That's too scary to fathom.
Wouldn't be a stretch at all to surmise that the teachings of Surah 5:33 led to this murder...i.e. exactly what the video I posted explains. The victim was a British soldier who represented his country's military presence in Afghanistan. That's "causing corruption", and "waging war". And that's, according to the verse, punishable by death. And they used cutting tools as well. Not a gun.
Surah 5:33
Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on May 22, 2013 23:35:12 GMT -5
Right, Dis...it IS murder...advocated and incited by the interpreted teachings found in a holy book, and that will never be reported as such by the mainstream media. "Terrorism" is the safe word. However, the term "radicalized" is also being used more often....and that's a start. The Old Testament is also full of a god who advocates and commands mass murder, genocide, rape, and slavery for his chosen people. Read Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and Numbers.....it's all there. Safe to say much of that has faded away with the Enlightenment and scientific advances/discovery/knowledge.... It depends on the level of faith practiced in Islamic countries. In some countries it even depends on what region of the country you come from. I was in Syria back in '96 and I had a chance to head north to Hama. I heard the prayers come over the loudspeakers and walked through a park that had men praying in it. No one was offended by us wandering through while prayers were in session. Our guide, Abdullah (a jeweler who moved from Hama to a nearby border town in the Golan Heights), was a Muslim but could have cared less about prayers. However, back in Damascus you'll find some Muslim women wearing designer jeans, while others wearing full niqads or burkas. So, there's a regional difference. Would I be able to do the same in Saudi Arabia? No, not on your life (sometimes literally). I have a friend who works in SA and if you're not off the streets come prayer time, they have monitors walking the streets tapping peoples' ankles with a very flexible sticks until they've cleared them off the streets. I guess those sticks hurt. But, there's a difference between societies. If you want to know where a lot of extremist problems come from, look at the countries where Islam is the official religion. Sharia Law is part of their constitutions. See Government Under GodRadical Islam has been around ever since the country of Israel was (re)formed. By "us" I guess you're referring to Canada. We have known radical cells in our country, but everyone who comes here understands that while they can practice their faith, their faith does not trump the law. This is where some European governments have dropped the ball. Religion continues to divide European societies and some goverments have authorized Sharia Law (votes?), instead of enforcing their own laws of the land. And if you want to know how Islam is progressing in Canada, just look at Calgary Mayor, Naheed Nenshi. He's a Muslim. They can believe what they want. In many Islamic-practicing countries, it's far better to believe in the lifeafter because it's better than the poverty they're living in now. Many of those martyrs who blew themselves into oblivion did so because they were forced into it at gunpoint. I might find a link on it when I have more time later, but I'm too bagged right now. Anyway, the whole point of my post is to point out that the extremists represent a very small core. The act is murder and it should only be given the press as any other murder. The less press the better. Cheers. |
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Post by Cranky on May 23, 2013 1:40:43 GMT -5
A few years ago I read [can't remember who suggested] that Islam is 500 years behind Christianity . . . it just hasn't "grown up" yet . . . though having said that, there are those within all of the religions that have not/will not grow up. Probably me in one of my rants...err discussions. I was watching the human garbage, blood dripping from his hands, babbling about the standard "West is evil and deserves this, we will punish you, watch us roar". I wonder if the garbage realizes that he/they never really seen the evil side of the West. He needs to visit Auschwitz to get a clue of what "evil West" can really look like. Can't make up my mind....fight garbage fundamentalist on their scorched earth terms or ignore and contain while they grow up. |
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Post by Cranky on May 23, 2013 1:45:52 GMT -5
The less press the better. i'm not sure if this is wishful thinking. It may make us feel that we are contain it but to the fundamentalist garbage, they don't need much more then a picture to celebrate and encourage each other. |
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Post by franko on May 23, 2013 6:05:22 GMT -5
If you want to know where a lot of extremist problems come from, look at the countries where Islam is the official religion. Sharia Law is part of their constitutions. . . . some European governments have dropped the ball. Religion continues to divide European societies and some goverments have authorized Sharia Law (votes?), instead of enforcing their own laws of the land. iirc "Premier Dad" was going to allow some Muslims to follow/use Sharia law . . . that would have been a "slippery slope" scenario. |
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Post by franko on May 23, 2013 6:06:52 GMT -5
. . . t the extremists represent a very small core. The act is murder and it should only be given the press as any other murder. small . . . but vocal. indeed. media coverage energizes and encourages them to continue. |
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Post by franko on May 23, 2013 6:10:45 GMT -5
A few years ago I read [can't remember who suggested] that Islam is 500 years behind Christianity . . . it just hasn't "grown up" yet . . . though having said that, there are those within all of the religions that have not/will not grow up. Probably me in one of my rants...err discussions. not that you aren't great and worthy of quoting  , but it was a sociologist-political-religious commentator/writer. and then I think . . . how can you tell others to grow up? ;D |
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Post by franko on May 23, 2013 7:15:29 GMT -5
why did it take police 20 minutes to get there?
why did people just stand around and not try to help "en masse"?
and why video tape the guy bragging?
and a whole bunch more questions.
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Post by CentreHice on May 23, 2013 8:22:40 GMT -5
By "us" I guess you're referring to Canada. No, I meant radical Islam has been with humanity (us) for a long time. Strict, orthodox sects like Wahhabi (which is prevalent in Saudi Arabia) has been around since the 18th century. Some are ripe for radicalization. To your other point, while it should be perhaps treated like any other grisly murder by the media....that can't be the view of our leaders. Sharia has no place in a civilized, human-rights world. |
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Post by Cranky on May 23, 2013 11:56:51 GMT -5
Probably me in one of my rants...err discussions. not that you aren't great and worthy of quoting , but it was a sociologist-political-religious commentator/writer. and then I think . . . how can you tell others to grow up? ;D And don't forget....pretty! That is why I'm worthy of quoting. It's not original thinking to say that Islam is far behind Christianity in terms of of it's power grabbers coming to grip with it's loss of power. The guys in robes just don't want to give up....yet. it's easy to tell other to grow up. I just point them to the righteousness of fundamental human rights and the failure of using books and robes to tell others how to run their lives. |
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Post by Cranky on May 23, 2013 12:06:47 GMT -5
why did it take police 20 minutes to get there? why did people just stand around and not try to help "en masse"? and why video tape the guy bragging? and a whole bunch more questions. All solved if I had a gun handy. Let's face it, in our society, we are constantly bombarded about the evils of using force and the righteousness of using a video camera and a complaints department. So we have a lot of videos......and nobody trying to stop them. Some of us, those of us who still live in caves and eat raw meat, we have a bit of a different take on what help really means. No gun handy? A 2 ton Benz would leave nice tire tracks on them. Repeatedly. |
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Post by CentreHice on May 23, 2013 12:16:42 GMT -5
The victim has a name: Lee Rigby, 25 years old....and he was beheaded. But Cameron gets it wrong...as they all do, it seems. And it goes right back to Cranky's initial post. “There is nothing in Islam that justifies this truly dreadful act,” Prime Minister David Cameron told reporters outside his London office today after a meeting of the Cabinet’s emergency committee, the second in less than 24 hours. The blame “lies purely with the sickening individuals who carried out this attack.”========================================================= I look at it this way--and it has to do more with the Sharia aspect than anything else. Let's say Sharia never existed....and I went before the House of Commons and said that I had a new revelation from a "god" that we were to run our society based on laws that I've written up, that in part: 1. treat women as subservient to the point of beating them when necessary.... 2. stone girls to death who have been raped, as well as other examples of honor killings. 3. target and kill homosexuals. 4. target and kill apostates (anyone who once thought like I do, but has renounced it some way) -etc... I'm pretty sure they would've stopped me and dismissed me as a lunatic after point 1, let alone 2....and perhaps arrested me for hate speech/literature after point 3. But, wait! I'd say it falls under the umbrella of a religion....and that my revelation and laws deserve respect and accommodation....and tax free shelter, to boot. Speaking of boot....that's exactly what I'd get....right out the door. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on May 23, 2013 16:11:57 GMT -5
By "us" I guess you're referring to Canada. No, I meant radical Islam has been with humanity (us) for a long time. Strict, orthodox sects like Wahhabi (which is prevalent in Saudi Arabia) has been around since the 18th century. Some are ripe for radicalization. Okay, now I understand. Radical Islam is on us big time but it's been around us a long time. This is their argument too, though. They like citing the Crusades as an example of Christian extremism. And they'd be right in saying it if Islamic extremism has been around as long. Sharia Law exists in many countries and, while I find some of it to be stifling, it is a way of life to many. Where the wheels came off (IMHO) is when some Western governments tried to please everyone by authoizing Sharia. Instead of upholding the integrity of their societal laws. I do agree with you insomuch as, there's no place for Sharia in an advanced society such as Canada. And I'll defend that principle to the end. But last thing we should do is give extremism attention. Cheers. Edit: CH, what I'm trying to do is differentiate Islamic extremism from ordinary Muslims who simply want live a peaceful life. We have our Chistian extremists too. Problem is they tend target their own. |
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Post by CentreHice on May 23, 2013 16:44:18 GMT -5
Understood, Dis....and I agree....and that's the distinction I made in my first post.
I'm sure there were those who lived during Roman Empire times who had such discussions over one or more of the gods/goddesses of the Pantheon, to name just one of the supernatural belief systems humanity has embraced.
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Post by Cranky on May 24, 2013 2:59:38 GMT -5
I just watched some CNN interviews the savages "friends". Absolutely unrepentant and it's the British governments fault that caused them to butcher. www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mlxMndnlzw www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=psZBaJU_Cvo[There is another CNN interview that I saw tonight that is even more damning but can;'t find it o nthe net. The above videos prove without a shadow of a doubt that there is no spiritual "religious" aspect to these crazies. It's simply boils down to politics. As such, any religion that moves from it's spiritual foundation to the political then should not have even the slightest protection under "freedom of religion". As a secular society, we need to re-establish, by force of law if need be that freedom of religion only applies to spiritual practice, not political or social dominance. Right along with the crazies we have the political left of our society preaching the narrative of "victimhood" for political gain. It's bad enough containing the hatred spread through misuse of religion, the left give political and ideological cover as well. "Those people hate you, vote for us". I'm not sure if it's moral relativity for political gain or simply mind numbing shortsightedness for the unintended consequences of the "victimhood" mantra. Of course, some of the right also is to blame. Instead of focusing and isolating the politics of Islam (or any religion), they lash out at the general Muslim population which in large part, want nothing to do with this. They give the left an all too easy target to sell vicitmhood politics. Last but not least, those vote sucking, power blinded flotsam, also know as politicians, they will suck up to anything and say anything if they think there are votes or donations involved. |
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Post by franko on May 24, 2013 6:04:31 GMT -5
well, Cranky, I respectfully . . . agree with you?? what's with that?
I will say, however, that it is impossible to separate the religious/spiritual part of a person from the political part of the person . . . it's all part and parcel of the whole . . . the religious [or lack thereof] influences the political, and vice versa. freedom of religion and freedom from religion are two different things. know, though, that I am by no means advocating theocracy or religious dominance [that's politics in a different guise]. maybe what we need is freedom from vote sucking, power blinded flotsam. . . then again, an appointed Senate is still filled with greedy selfish power blinded flotsam, it seems.
but their voices are silent -- or at least quiet. is it because they are afraid to speak out [the Rushdie result], is it because the radicals are a lot louder, or is it because what they say is ignored by the media because peace does not sell?
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Post by CentreHice on May 24, 2013 7:40:47 GMT -5
The politicians, IMO, haven't spoken loudly against it because of fear of the promise of violence and murder. Look at the editorial cartoons published in a Danish newspaper (depicting Muhammad) almost 8 years ago. The Danish embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan was targeted with a car bomb. 5 were killed. Other Danish embassies were also targeted. The cartoonist received death threats, including one attempt on his life in his own home. There were only a handful of North American media outlets who would show the cartoons. Certainly not the major outlets. Fear. The other religious also provide cover. The Archbishop of Canterbury and the Pope spoke out against....what? The cries and actions of the radicals: Behead those, death to those who dare to mock Muhammad? No...they spoke out against the cartoons. Just like they did with Rushie's novel: The Satanic Verses. But like I said, the term "radicalized" is getting more air time now....and that's a start. What makes it difficult to control is that there's no central head office for Islam...no "Vatican" presence that can raise its voice to condemn/police these acts. Instead there are many sects with independent cells operating with their own radical teachings/interpretations. Hence, we see random, unrelated attacks being taken on by individuals....such as the Boston Marathon...and this latest beheading in London. |
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Post by franko on May 24, 2013 8:04:02 GMT -5
The politicians, IMO, haven't spoken loudly against it because of fear of the promise of violence and murder. and yet all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing . . . say nothing, do not take a stand, and soon the violent murderers are in charge. isn't that what has run the world since . . . forever? fear of the gods or fear of the ones who speak for the gods or fear of the ones whom the gods have put into power or fear of the ones in power . . . through polytheism to the [un]Holy Roman Empire to Hitler and Stalin . . . civil society = tolerance = not offending = letting people get away with saying and doing . . . unless you have been part of the civil society, then you need to be tolerant of others but they don't need to be tolerant of you/accept your viewpoint [yes, I realize that htis is a generalization]. I just hope it doesn't encourage more radical acts and actions. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on May 24, 2013 12:13:12 GMT -5
well, Cranky, I respectfully . . . agree with you?? what's with that? I will say, however, that it is impossible to separate the religious/spiritual part of a person from the political part of the person . . . it's all part and parcel of the whole . . . the religious [or lack thereof] influences the political, and vice versa. freedom of religion and freedom from religion are two different things. know, though, that I am by no means advocating theocracy or religious dominance [that's politics in a different guise]. maybe what we need is freedom from vote sucking, power blinded flotsam. . . then again, an appointed Senate is still filled with greedy selfish power blinded flotsam, it seems. but their voices are silent -- or at least quiet. is it because they are afraid to speak out [the Rushdie result], is it because the radicals are a lot louder, or is it because what they say is ignored by the media because peace does not sell? Great post, Franko! Cheers! |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on May 24, 2013 12:31:45 GMT -5
If you want to know where a lot of extremist problems come from, look at the countries where Islam is the official religion. Sharia Law is part of their constitutions. . . . some European governments have dropped the ball. Religion continues to divide European societies and some goverments have authorized Sharia Law (votes?), instead of enforcing their own laws of the land. iirc "Premier Dad" was going to allow some Muslims to follow/use Sharia law . . . that would have been a "slippery slope" scenario. A slippery slope? I hope it would be enough to have him turfed from office. Two sets of laws? I guess it could be construed as 'root multiculturalism' and that concept would probably garner the immigrant vote ... which sounds like it might be the agenda, anyway. Still, that said, if that was the agenda then I find it self-defeating. More votes at the expense of dividing the province. If it's segregation you want then ... Cheers. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on May 24, 2013 13:03:52 GMT -5
I just watched some CNN interviews the savages "friends". Absolutely unrepentant and it's the British governments fault that caused them to butcher. Of course it's someone else's fault. By saying, "I don't kill people, God does", simply defers accountability onto someone else, or in this case the UK government. |
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, but it was a sociologist-political-religious commentator/writer.