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Post by CentreHice on Jul 28, 2013 21:58:04 GMT -5
YatimThe fatal shooting by police of 18-year-old Sammy Yatim on Friday night in a Toronto streetcar.... Brandished a knife...ordered everyone off. He had hurt no one. Police arrived, told him to drop the knife...then fired 9 times at close range. Don't know all the details yet....but on the surface that sounds more than excessive, wouldn't you say? What exactly are police trained to do in such a situation? The kid had only a knife.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jul 28, 2013 23:57:45 GMT -5
YatimThe fatal shooting by police of 18-year-old Sammy Yatim on Friday night in a Toronto streetcar.... Brandished a knife...ordered everyone off. He had hurt no one. Police arrived, told him to drop the knife...then fired 9 times at close range. Don't know all the details yet....but on the surface that sounds more than excessive, wouldn't you say? What exactly are police trained to do in such a situation? The kid had only a knife. I would call a knife on a streetcar excessive.
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Post by CentreHice on Jul 29, 2013 5:55:17 GMT -5
He hurt no one. That deserved a 9-bullet death at close range?
Something's not right, one way or the other.
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Post by jkr on Jul 29, 2013 6:37:41 GMT -5
Just heard an ex police office on CBC. He seems to feel that not everything was done to de - escalate. He brought up the case ,several weeks ago, in Etobicoke of a man who had stabbed 3 people than ran off into a wooded area. Police surrounded him & managed to arrest him without firing shots.
At first glance this seems too much too soon. He's alone on the streetcar & surrounded by police. Have to wait for more info I guess.
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Post by Polarice on Jul 29, 2013 8:51:54 GMT -5
Whether its 9 bullets or just one....dead is dead.
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Post by CentreHice on Jul 29, 2013 9:58:10 GMT -5
Lots of talk about waiting until the officer with the Taser showed up. They apparently Tasered him AFTER the 9 shots.
The guy was trapped in a streetcar....unless he had a bomb on him, where was he going...and what possible harm could he have done? I understand that the police likely had no way of knowing if Yatim also had a gun, and they perhaps thought he was reaching for it.
The family has hired a lawyer.
If Yatim was going through a troubled time, or was "on" something....he certainly didn't deserve to die, considering how it played out.
More facts needed for sure.
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Post by Skilly on Jul 29, 2013 10:33:12 GMT -5
YatimThe fatal shooting by police of 18-year-old Sammy Yatim on Friday night in a Toronto streetcar.... Brandished a knife...ordered everyone off. He had hurt no one. Police arrived, told him to drop the knife...then fired 9 times at close range. Don't know all the details yet....but on the surface that sounds more than excessive, wouldn't you say? What exactly are police trained to do in such a situation? The kid had only a knife. I would call a knife on a streetcar excessive. When I was in the US and riding the Subway, I always said to myself, about 30% of these people are probably carrying a gun. I thought that was excessive too. From other posts, I am sure you see no harm in people carrying guns onto a streetcar, but if you are allowed, if it is your right, then it is the whacko's of this world right as well. Neither is good, but I would rather he be carrying a concealed knife on the streetcar than a concealed gun.
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Post by Polarice on Jul 29, 2013 10:33:59 GMT -5
Lots of talk about waiting until the officer with the Taser showed up. They apparently Tasered him AFTER the 9 shots. The guy was trapped in a streetcar....unless he had a bomb on him, where was he going...and what possible harm could he have done? I understand that the police likely had no way of knowing if Yatim also had a gun, and they perhaps thought he was reaching for it. The family has hired a lawyer. If Yatim was going through a troubled time, or was "on" something....he certainly didn't deserve to die, considering how it played out. More facts needed for sure. I honestly don't care if people think its excessive....look what happened last time someone had a knife on a bus. If my kid was on that street car with that nut I wouldn't care if they shot him 100 times.
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Post by franko on Jul 29, 2013 10:43:45 GMT -5
Lots of talk about waiting until the officer with the Taser showed up. They apparently Tasered him AFTER the 9 shots. The guy was trapped in a streetcar....unless he had a bomb on him, where was he going...and what possible harm could he have done? I understand that the police likely had no way of knowing if Yatim also had a gun, and they perhaps thought he was reaching for it. The family has hired a lawyer. If Yatim was going through a troubled time, or was "on" something....he certainly didn't deserve to die, considering how it played out. More facts needed for sure. I honestly don't care if people think its excessive....look what happened last time someone had a knife on a bus. If my kid was on that street car with that nut I wouldn't care if they shot him 100 times. Kamloops. guy with a gun alone in a house. 6 hours later he gives himself up. Yatim. guy with a knife alone in a streetcar. shot 9 times. what's wrong here? I wonder . . . suicide by cop? still . . .
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Post by CentreHice on Jul 29, 2013 11:30:00 GMT -5
Lots of talk about waiting until the officer with the Taser showed up. They apparently Tasered him AFTER the 9 shots. The guy was trapped in a streetcar....unless he had a bomb on him, where was he going...and what possible harm could he have done? I understand that the police likely had no way of knowing if Yatim also had a gun, and they perhaps thought he was reaching for it. The family has hired a lawyer. If Yatim was going through a troubled time, or was "on" something....he certainly didn't deserve to die, considering how it played out. More facts needed for sure. I honestly don't care if people think its excessive....look what happened last time someone had a knife on a bus. If my kid was on that street car with that nut I wouldn't care if they shot him 100 times. But that's not how it played out. No one was attacked. If it was my son with the knife, I'd have considered it very fortunate that he didn't hurt anyone, and the force used against him to be outrageous to say the least. They had him completely contained. There'd better be a good explanation.
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Post by Cranky on Jul 29, 2013 12:09:58 GMT -5
So far as I know or read, this kid had not done anything to warrant 9 bullets. No ones head was getting walnutted on the concrete, nobody was threatened with a knife, no one was in any imminent danger, nothing but ther furniture was at risk even if he went berserk.
A one eye midget with a taser could of taken him down.
On the surface, without any bigger cause/reason, this looks like an execution.
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Post by Cranky on Jul 29, 2013 12:16:08 GMT -5
I would call a knife on a streetcar excessive. You think that carry is fine but someone with a knife presenting no danger to anyone at the time should be shot? I am pro gun to the point were someone could legitimately call me a gun nut. But I think the vast majority of people should not carry....and you provided proof.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 29, 2013 14:14:32 GMT -5
I would like to hear the results of the SIU (see vid) investigation.
However, on the surface this looks bad. Nine bullets on a kid, eh? Better sort this out quickly before anyone starts comparing us to the USA. I mean, how do you flog the benefits of our society with incidents like this?
Nine bullets from how many guns? WTFrig.
Dis
Edit: The actual shooting is on YouTube. Yatim was told several times to drop the knife. Why they fired centre-of-mass is beyond me. The kid was not threatening anyone. He was standing there with a knife.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jul 29, 2013 14:19:04 GMT -5
I would call a knife on a streetcar excessive. You think that carry is fine but someone with a knife presenting no danger to anyone at the time should be shot? I am pro gun to the point were someone could legitimately call me a gun nut. But I think the vast majority of people should not carry....and you provided proof. This is a no win. My rational arguments will not sway you and your eloquent opinions are unlikely to give me a eureka. The difference is not gun or knife, but threatening. Threatening, brandishing, intimidating, bullying etc. as I previously commented, do not remove the gun or knife from the holster/pocket unless you intend to use it. All the facts are not known at this point, but this also gets into the death penalty debate depending on the details. We tend to give policemen greater latitude than a vigilante Zimmermam. Until I learn otherwise, I assume the police reacted to an armed irrational emotional knife wielding assailant. I don't thing there was a premeditated motive and planted evidence. Canadian police are not reputed to be trigger happy killers.
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Post by Polarice on Jul 29, 2013 14:19:17 GMT -5
From what I am reading on the net he wasn't shot 9 times, just that 9 shots were fired. Be that as it may, I will retract my earlier statements and agree that it looks like the cops lost control of the situation. They should have waited for a Taser to show up...(I thought all cops carries a tasers).
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Post by jkr on Jul 29, 2013 14:48:54 GMT -5
The fact that 9 shots were fired & some of those shots missed at that range is scary for a shooting at a street corner. In one clip I saw, a pedestrian actually rode by on his bicycle while the standoff was occurring. Shouldn't the site have been cordoned off?
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 29, 2013 16:15:05 GMT -5
First, I'm not in the policeman's shoes. Secondly, I don't know what I'd do if confronted like that.
Yet, having said that, I have a suspecision that I might not fire nine shots into the kid, though. Twenty-three years military experience suggests to me that this situation could have/should have been handled a lot differently.
Where's the SIU report?
Cheers.
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Post by Cranky on Jul 29, 2013 19:44:13 GMT -5
First, I'm not in the policeman's shoes. Secondly, I don't know what I'd do if confronted like that. I have done a few stupid things in my life but honestly, I don't know what I would of done either. Having said that, I'm pretty sure that I could asses the threat on life or death enough that if I'm pointing a gun, the other person has a knife and there is at least 10-15 feet between us, there is no chance in hell that person is reaching me in less then a second it takes to pull the trigger. I'm for law and order as much as you and the next guy and I support the man in blue, but......but there also has to be a higher standard then 9 shots....
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 29, 2013 20:49:53 GMT -5
First, I'm not in the policeman's shoes. Secondly, I don't know what I'd do if confronted like that. I have done a few stupid things in my life but honestly, I don't know what I would of done either. Having said that, I'm pretty sure that I could asses the threat on life or death enough that if I'm pointing a gun, the other person has a knife and there is at least 10-15 feet between us, there is no chance in hell that person is reaching me in less then a second it takes to pull the trigger. I'm for law and order as much as you and the next guy and I support the man in blue, but......but there also has to be a higher standard then 9 shots.... Well, I was trying to be a tad empathetic, but I'd be lying to you if I told you I didn't feel the same way. Nine shots ... It reminded me of the Oka standoff a few years back. The SQ requested some armour (a tank or armoured personnel carrier (APC)). They were just going to go in and blast away, but it was turned down. They also asked for RCMP support, but that didn't work out either. However, when the army took over they settled the crisis without firing a shot. If this situation could be handled without firing a shot, how does a cop pump nine shots into a kid who's clearly not agressive, but just being a punk? He dropped the kid on the first shot and kept pulling the tigger. Unbelievable! I really want to hear the SIU report on this. That video is damning and, what the heck ... it's in CH's original hyperlink, but I'm posting it here.
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Post by PTH on Jul 29, 2013 21:39:55 GMT -5
I don't get why cops even started shooting in that video.
If Tasers exist, it's for situations like these. Where force might be required, but there's no reason to actually shoot someone.
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Post by Skilly on Jul 29, 2013 21:54:48 GMT -5
Even if the guy was running at them with the knife, like Cranky says, there was no chance he was getting to them .... I'm not a criminal lawyer, but I'm pretty sure in this situation Canadian law would dictate that a bullet to the leg (if shooting was indeed required) would have sufficed. These men are trained professionals on shooting ranges every day and can't get a guy in the leg from less than 20 feet?
I believe the shooter has now been suspended. I would image criminal charges will be coming.
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Post by Skilly on Jul 29, 2013 22:00:50 GMT -5
I just watched the video ....where was the threat? He was backing up into the bus. I also thought I heard or read he was tased after he was shot. I tried to see if the two officers that went on the bus shoot anything, hard to tell ....
One thing is for certain ...looking at that video ... There was more than Yasim with something wrong in their heads
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Post by Cranky on Jul 30, 2013 1:32:53 GMT -5
I'm repeating myslef but in this case it's warranted. I have fired everything in hand guns from a Berretta 22 to a 44 magnum. In fact, I almost lost my thumb when I underestimated a hot load. I'm telling you in no uncertain terms it takes about two seconds to asses a "shoot, no shoot" on a pop up. When there is not even a question of "shoot no shoot" and it's a straight reaction time, maybe a second. There is absolutely no chance in hell that he was a threat. NONE. Nor is there any chance in hell of a miss from twenty feet by someone who is suppose to be be proficient. I hope to hell and back that the kid said he had a bomb or something like that to excuse what looks like a summery execution. BTW.....here is what stupid looks like when you play with hand canons....LOL!
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Post by Cranky on Jul 30, 2013 1:43:53 GMT -5
I don't get why cops even started shooting in that video. If Tasers exist, it's for situations like these. Where force might be required, but there's no reason to actually shoot someone. They tasered AFTER they shot him 9 times. No really, I'm not kidding. (You may noticed that there is an "edit" on your post. I didn't edit anything you wrote. As a mod, I have edit ability on all posts and I hit "edit" instead of "quote". Sorry. )
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Post by Cranky on Jul 30, 2013 2:01:09 GMT -5
You think that carry is fine but someone with a knife presenting no danger to anyone at the time should be shot? I am pro gun to the point were someone could legitimately call me a gun nut. But I think the vast majority of people should not carry....and you provided proof. This is a no win. My rational arguments will not sway you and your eloquent opinions are unlikely to give me a eureka. The difference is not gun or knife, but threatening. Threatening, brandishing, intimidating, bullying etc. as I previously commented, do not remove the gun or knife from the holster/pocket unless you intend to use it. All the facts are not known at this point, but this also gets into the death penalty debate depending on the details. We tend to give policemen greater latitude than a vigilante Zimmermam. Until I learn otherwise, I assume the police reacted to an armed irrational emotional knife wielding assailant. I don't thing there was a premeditated motive and planted evidence. Canadian police are not reputed to be trigger happy killers. Huh? You are all over the place with this. First, "threatening" is neither here or there nor reason to shoot. "shoot, no shoot" is based on IMMINENT DANGER, not verbal abuse or lack of cooperation. Part of the training of cops is to asses that imminent danger and part is to get use to pulling the trigger. There was no imminent danger as the video shows clearly. Second, Zimmerman case WAS imminent danger when his head was getting bashed on the concrete, this was not. Not even close. Watch the video.
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Post by Tankdriver on Jul 30, 2013 10:26:31 GMT -5
First, I'm not in the policeman's shoes. Secondly, I don't know what I'd do if confronted like that. Yet, having said that, I have a suspecision that I might not fire nine shots into the kid, though. Twenty-three years military experience suggests to me that this situation could have/should have been handled a lot differently. Where's the SIU report? Cheers. Same here Dis. We go over rules of engagement and escalation of force every year and we're talking combat situations. Pulling the trigger is a last resort in most occasions. What was done to the kid is overkill. Normally in a situation like this it should be verbal warning - with increases in volume and tone - (possible warning shot depending on individuals reaction), and then a non leathel shot or two if he was making an move on someones. The kid had a small knife...pretty sure a bullet is quicker than the hand.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 30, 2013 11:45:13 GMT -5
In fact, I almost lost my thumb when I underestimated a hot load. I'm telling you in no uncertain terms it takes about two seconds to asses a "shoot, no shoot" on a pop up. When there is not even a question of "shoot no shoot" and it's a straight reaction time, maybe a second. There is absolutely no chance in hell that he was a threat. NONE. Nor is there any chance in hell of a miss from twenty feet by someone who is suppose to be be proficient. I hope to hell and back that the kid said he had a bomb or something like that to excuse what looks like a summery execution. I had a close call with a cook off before. It was on a live-fire range in Germany and the C-6 section weapon stopped firing in the middle of a belt of 7.62 mm. We had our drills to go through before opening the breach and clearing the chamber. Just as I was about to open the breach, the round went off (hence a cook-off). Had that gone off while the breach was open it could have been fatal, even though we had done everything correctly. Had a friend who was part of the range safety staff in Gagetown. He took a round that failed to go off and put it in his tunic pocket. He had done all of his actions correctly but it proved to be a cook-off. He's alive today, thankfully. I think you're right in that this looked more like a summary execution. Unbelievable! What was the officer thinking? Cheers.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jul 30, 2013 11:54:28 GMT -5
I don't get why cops even started shooting in that video. If Tasers exist, it's for situations like these. Where force might be required, but there's no reason to actually shoot someone. They couldn't fire tear gas? That way they knock the kid out and make the vehicle safe for entry. I see a big lawsuit coming. Wrongful death, cop loses job and might get criminal charges.
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Post by Skilly on Jul 30, 2013 13:03:18 GMT -5
It's new math ...
22 officers, 9 bullets, 1 kid, 1 knife
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Post by Cranky on Jul 30, 2013 13:12:40 GMT -5
In fact, I almost lost my thumb when I underestimated a hot load. I'm telling you in no uncertain terms it takes about two seconds to asses a "shoot, no shoot" on a pop up. When there is not even a question of "shoot no shoot" and it's a straight reaction time, maybe a second. There is absolutely no chance in hell that he was a threat. NONE. Nor is there any chance in hell of a miss from twenty feet by someone who is suppose to be be proficient. I hope to hell and back that the kid said he had a bomb or something like that to excuse what looks like a summery execution. I had a close call with a cook off before. It was on a live-fire range in Germany and the C-6 section weapon stopped firing in the middle of a belt of 7.62 mm. We had our drills to go through before opening the breach and clearing the chamber. Just as I was about to open the breach, the round went off (hence a cook-off). Had that gone off while the breach was open it could have been fatal, even though we had done everything correctly. Had a friend who was part of the range safety staff in Gagetown. He took a round that failed to go off and put it in his tunic pocket. He had done all of his actions correctly but it proved to be a cook-off. He's alive today, thankfully. I think you're right in that this looked more like a summary execution. Unbelievable! What was the officer thinking? Cheers. Next time, it's the bottom of the ocean for a mandatory 30 year count.
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