|
|
Post by sergejean on Jul 30, 2013 20:34:14 GMT -5
There must be something wrong with the training provided to police officers. Or it lacks a mechanism to weed out the people who are not a good fit for the job. A similar situation happened last week in Montreal when a 72 y.o. was killed. He also had a knife.
There is obviously a risk involved in being a police officer. If one cannot accept that risk than one shouldn't be allowed to patrol the streets armed with a gun. We live in a sterilized society where people strive for zero risk, maximum protection. Just look at parents padding their kids from head to toe to ride a tricycle. Police officers used to be "tough guys", not afraid to get their nose bloody to serve and protect. Now they're hiring just anybody, no more height requirement, they're hiring "good boys". "Good boys" are afraid of risk, they don't want to get their nose bloody. They prefer to shoot from a distance instead.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tankdriver on Jul 30, 2013 20:57:14 GMT -5
I don't get why cops even started shooting in that video. If Tasers exist, it's for situations like these. Where force might be required, but there's no reason to actually shoot someone. They couldn't fire tear gas? That way they knock the kid out and make the vehicle safe for entry. I see a big lawsuit coming. Wrongful death, cop loses job and might get criminal charges. That definetly isn't fun. I've had the c6 gun continue firing even after the trigger was released. It is not easy trying to break off the belt and to control the shooting at the same time. Definetly a scary moment. Also had a jam in the C9 and it took 3 of us - 2 to hold the weapon and another to pull the cocking. Handle back with the sling. The round was so bent we were lucky it didn't go off. |
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Jul 31, 2013 2:28:03 GMT -5
That definetly isn't fun. I've had the c6 gun continue firing even after the trigger was released. It is not easy trying to break off the belt and to control the shooting at the same time. Definetly a scary moment. Also had a jam in the C9 and it took 3 of us - 2 to hold the weapon and another to pull the cocking. Handle back with the sling. The round was so bent we were lucky it didn't go off. Well, let's face it, you military guys are not well equipped nor well trained. Us way smarter amateurs would carry a can of WD-40, a ball peen hammer and a roll of duct tape. You spray the breach with WD-40 and if it jams, you hit it with a ball-peen hammer. Then you use the duct tape to re-attach various body parts.  |
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Jul 31, 2013 3:07:35 GMT -5
This is getting worse..... I saw a different video tonight. He was CLEARLY down by the first three shots. Pause. Then 6 more......into someone already on the floor and absolutely no way he was a threat to anyone by any stretch of the imagination. The other thing that this video showed is that there was no "reach" for anything. I thought that one for the excuses would be "I saw him reach for something", but in that video, he was facing them. CAUTION: SHOOTING AND DEATH. www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oKwX8A8aiYCripes....I can't let go of the thought "summery execution". |
|
|
|
Post by CentreHice on Jul 31, 2013 6:22:39 GMT -5
Const. James ForcilloWith that footage, I can't see how they can spin it in Forcillo's favour. From what I can find online, uniformed TPS officers carry a Glock 22. 15-round magazine. Don't know if they waited until members of the Emergency Task Force got there or not...but they're the ones with the tear gas, taser, etc.
|
|
|
|
Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jul 31, 2013 11:37:50 GMT -5
I would say that tasering the guy after 9 shots is excessive.
|
|
|
|
Post by CentreHice on Jul 31, 2013 13:06:27 GMT -5
I can't find room for flippancy in this situation. It sickens me. Unless Yatim said he had a bomb, there's no excuse for what happened.
Not painting all police with the same brush, of course.
Forcillo will likely pay with his career...and perhaps he'll be sued personally by the family.
For sure, they'll go after the TPS.
I would.
|
|
|
|
Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jul 31, 2013 15:51:40 GMT -5
I can't find room for flippancy in this situation. It sickens me. Unless Yatim said he had a bomb, there's no excuse for what happened. Not painting all police with the same brush, of course. Forcillo will likely pay with his career...and perhaps he'll be sued personally by the family. For sure, they'll go after the TPS. I would. I agree. It's best to reserve judgement. At first I automatically sided with the police, but after seeing the video it appears excessive. After the full investigation I may change my mind again, but it is serious and appears the officer overacted. I usually don't side with a deranged, troubled knife wielding attacker who threatens others, however in this case I do not think I would have shot if I was the officer. |
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Aug 1, 2013 2:27:18 GMT -5
Just for the record....
This is almost morbid but just to make the point....
I slowed down the video and it took .6 seconds (6/10 tenths) to fire the first three rounds and 6 seconds between the end of the first three and the start of then next 6 rounds.
The .6 seconds it took to fire THREE ROUNDS make any argument of "imminent threat" into pure nonsense. AND there were two guns aimed at him.
P.S. Anyone can duplicate what I did. I saved it as an mp4 file and used VLC playback and slow it down.
|
|
|
|
Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 1, 2013 7:09:12 GMT -5
I can't find room for flippancy in this situation. It sickens me. Unless Yatim said he had a bomb, there's no excuse for what happened. Not painting all police with the same brush, of course. Forcillo will likely pay with his career...and perhaps he'll be sued personally by the family. For sure, they'll go after the TPS. I would. A prison term would be in order as well. Tough time for a cop. Cheers. |
|
|
|
Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 1, 2013 17:25:54 GMT -5
The Ontario Ombudsman is now looking at the films to determine whether further investigation is warranted.
Still haven't heard anything on the SIU investigation. Anyone else here?
Cheers.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doc Holliday on Aug 7, 2013 15:28:53 GMT -5
Definitely a policeman gone wild... unless he felt there was a bomb threat that needed immediate reaction, in which case shooting 9 times or shooting once in the forehead becomes irrelevant. You must disable the bomber promptly. I'm not sure what was going on there on but how does so many backups gets called in for a simple "guy carrying a knife not threatening anyone"... In the video you see officers motioning towards entering the bus, and then backing off... Surely there had to be "something" scaring the officers...
We'll have to wait and see I guess.
One thing I want to mention about this too is that how does one man stand in front of a bunch of officers with gun drawn and still tries to toy with them and play smart... As a police friend once told me, "...they're not afraid anymore..."... People can curse at cops, throw them stuff, taunt them, spit at them, kick their car, you name it... officers must take it all and then some... Because officers know that if they kick the ass out of some drug carrying street punk, playing smart to look tough in front of his chummies, than the criminal quickly becomes the "victim"... Even when arresting criminals, cops are walking on egg shells, if they injure the criminal, even if that someone is resisting arrest, they can have trouble...
Back in the days you didn't mess around with cops because they'd arrest you, bring you down at the station and teach you a bit of respect...
This video indeed looks like "excessive force"... but I think we'll also have to raise the bar to what is "acceptable force"... There has to be a certain level of fear that cops must convey , so that little shrimps with butter knife, will think twice before flinging their weapons in the faces of officers...
|
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Aug 7, 2013 20:52:10 GMT -5
Doc,
Any given day, I say a beating a day keeps the punks away.....but this sounds more like someone who is high or mentally ill. If the reports of him exposing himself runs contrary to a tough guy punk.
Cops job is to sit there and take it. This is nothing compared to the crap that Greek cops take. Imagine molotov cocktails warming their hearts.....but they don't put a round or nine into someone.
|
|
|
|
Post by franko on Aug 7, 2013 20:54:43 GMT -5
Cops job is to sit there and take it. This is nothing is it? then why bother having them around? |
|
|
|
Post by Cranky on Aug 7, 2013 21:06:58 GMT -5
To serve and protect....not judge and execute. Unless they see imminent danger, they are not, or at lest, should not use lethal force. The perp was 20 plus feet away, plus three steps. It takes less then a second to fire a drawn and aimed weapon. Plus it took .6 seconds to fire 3 rounds. Yes, I slowed the video down and counted. There is no one, or should be no one who can claim that he was lethal imminent danger in 1.6 seconds with multiple guns aimed at him.
Cops make a LOT of money and training to handle this kind of situations....without body bags.
Getting back to Greek cops. They have seen so much violence against them, they are use to and probably have a much better idea what "lethal" and "imminent danger" looks like compared to GTA cops. That is why you don't have body counts in Greek riots despite bolder tossing and molotove cocktail bbq's
|
|
|
|
Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 8, 2013 7:11:26 GMT -5
Definitely a policeman gone wild... unless he felt there was a bomb threat that needed immediate reaction, in which case shooting 9 times or shooting once in the forehead becomes irrelevant. You must disable the bomber promptly. I'm not sure what was going on there on but how does so many backups gets called in for a simple "guy carrying a knife not threatening anyone"... In the video you see officers motioning towards entering the bus, and then backing off... Surely there had to be "something" scaring the officers... We'll have to wait and see I guess. One thing I want to mention about this too is that how does one man stand in front of a bunch of officers with gun drawn and still tries to toy with them and play smart... As a police friend once told me, "...they're not afraid anymore..."... People can curse at cops, throw them stuff, taunt them, spit at them, kick their car, you name it... officers must take it all and then some... Because officers know that if they kick the ass out of some drug carrying street punk, playing smart to look tough in front of his chummies, than the criminal quickly becomes the "victim"... Even when arresting criminals, cops are walking on egg shells, if they injure the criminal, even if that someone is resisting arrest, they can have trouble... Back in the days you didn't mess around with cops because they'd arrest you, bring you down at the station and teach you a bit of respect... This video indeed looks like "excessive force"... but I think we'll also have to raise the bar to what is "acceptable force"... There has to be a certain level of fear that cops must convey , so that little shrimps with butter knife, will think twice before flinging their weapons in the faces of officers... Well, your friend is right. Many people seem to know just what they can get away with nowadays. They simply don't have the respect for the uniform any more and when the media is involved all of a sudden people seem to get braver. As you said, yes, criminals quickly become the victims and it happens quite often. Yet, in this case the policeman did himself no favours at all. This kid did nothing to deserve what he got and what miffs me more is that the story has lost momentum. We haven't heard anything on this in days. Still waiting for the SIU report and the Ombudsman's statement. Hoping we don't wait too much longer. Cheers. |
|
|
|
Post by frozone on Aug 8, 2013 8:55:54 GMT -5
I don't want to sound like I'm siding with the cop, but in this situation I think he shot because he warned the victim to not take a step closer. I can't hear the entire sentence, but he says something to the effect of "If you take one step in this direction I'll give you a bullet right now." That adds a huge amount of tension to the situation and I'm guessing that's not something that he was supposed to say.
Moments later, it looks like Yatim does take a step closer and I think that is the reason why the cop fired. He couldn't let a kid call his bluff. The kid was probably dead after the first round of shots. The second round of shots serves as proof that this cop had lost control of himself and the situation.
As much as I hate the way the cops handled this situation, I do sympathize with cops in general to a certain extent. Social media hasn't helped them one bit and it seems there is somewhat of a movement to undermine their authority. Once a crowd forms and the cameras comes out, the situation escalates and it seems to make cops do funny things... I know what it feels like to rehearse something endlessly but suddenly have it unravel once I try to record it. The knowledge of being filmed does have an effect, and I don't think cops receive real training on how to handle that.
Don't get me wrong; cops a part of the problem too. There's proof of that all over the place. But social media's anti-cop campaign really needs to tone it down some. It creates a very testy and unhealthy environment.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doc Holliday on Aug 8, 2013 10:40:02 GMT -5
As you said, yes, criminals quickly become the victims and it happens quite often. Yet, in this case the policeman did himself no favours at all. This kid did nothing to deserve what he got and what miffs me more is that the story has lost momentum. We haven't heard anything on this in days. Still waiting for the SIU report and the Ombudsman's statement. Hoping we don't wait too much longer. Cheers. I agree Dis it does look like a severe police blunder... Yet I have the uneasy feeling about why was there so much backup called in for a kid with a knife... As you say hopefully we get the whole story at some point... |
|
|
|
Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 8, 2013 11:27:33 GMT -5
As you said, yes, criminals quickly become the victims and it happens quite often. Yet, in this case the policeman did himself no favours at all. This kid did nothing to deserve what he got and what miffs me more is that the story has lost momentum. We haven't heard anything on this in days. Still waiting for the SIU report and the Ombudsman's statement. Hoping we don't wait too much longer. Cheers. I agree Dis it does look like a severe police blunder... Yet I have the uneasy feeling about why was there so much backup called in for a kid with a knife... As you say hopefully we get the whole story at some point... Just to add a bit more, IMHO we can't give policemen enough credit for the jobs they do. They take the dirty work off our hands by upholding the law either by force or otherwise. It's a thankless job and they're often raked through the coals for the smallest of indiscretions. I guess I'm saying that, even though there are exceptions like this one, it's important that we do not paint all law enforcement officers with the same brush. I honestly wish I knew what the cop was thinking. It could be just as Frozone suggested insomuch as, he simply couldn't allow the kid to call his bluff. But, why so many shots? Cheers. |
|
|
|
Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Aug 19, 2013 10:19:13 GMT -5
|
|
