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Post by CentreHice on Aug 30, 2013 7:33:02 GMT -5
ArticleAdulterers and homosexuals, in particular. It's nothing new. He's just preaching Sharia....the law of fundamentalist Islam. It'll be preached wherever these types live....and they live in Canada. And this is no renegade cleric...he serves as both president of the Islamic Forum of Canada and vice-president of the Islamic Council of Imams of Canada. If I, as a private citizen, was to go on national television and preach the same thing....how long before I was picked up by the police and labelled a radical hate-monger who advocated murder? And what if I said I had the authority to say such things because I got the message in a vision from a god? I'd likely be hospitalized and observed, as well. I'd be declaring myself unfit to function in a civilized society. Yet, back it with ancient scripture, call it a "religion"...and it's disrespectful to speak out against it. That is one insecure, totalitarian schism of that faith. Death for homosexuality, adultery, leaving the religion (apostacy).....among other things. While we wait for Islam to undergo a major reformation (i.e. doing away with iron age barbarism), there is only one stance for Canada to take with this poisonous nonsense. In this country....it's not called "purifying the soul", no matter which invisible leader mandates it....it's called murder.
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Post by franko on Aug 30, 2013 8:59:35 GMT -5
in spite of the "ancient scripture" that I hold to, I agree with you wholeheartedly, CH. I'm glad you noted it as a schism of the faith, as not all who hold to the Sharia tradition would go so far -- in fact, some would say that this is a poor interpretation. but interpretation is in the eye of the beholder, no? I have problems with the way some interpret my own scriptures.
paraphrasing, I may disagree with the way you live, but I'll defend your right to live it.
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Post by blny on Aug 30, 2013 10:38:46 GMT -5
As long as words are written down, they'll always be interpreted in a myriad of ways. It's not unique to religion. Neither is hate for those that are different.
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Post by CentreHice on Aug 30, 2013 10:47:14 GMT -5
It may be a schism....but it's a very powerful one. Look at the titles this man holds...president of the Islamic Forum of Canada and vice-president of the Islamic Council of Imams of Canada.
Sounds near mainstream to me.
Madness.
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Post by CentreHice on Aug 30, 2013 10:57:05 GMT -5
paraphrasing, I may disagree with the way you live, but I'll defend your right to live it. Not in all cases, franko. Not with the strict implementation of Sharia....where a man is impelled to kill his daughter if she is raped. Or to drown his wife and three daughters out of "honor" (Kingston, 2009). Any "law" that orders such punishment is absolutely insane in a rational, civilized world and deserves neither respect nor defence. Surely, our species has learned that much about about how we should treat each other. And let's watch how our government handles this kind of preachment. They'll tiptoe around it, so as "not to offend"...and why? Because of the promise of violence. Look no further than the response to cartoons published in a Danish newspaper. Again, if I had a "revelation" and wanted to start a like-minded movement....I'd be dismissed and discredited right off the bat. |
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Post by franko on Aug 30, 2013 11:33:08 GMT -5
paraphrasing, I may disagree with the way you live, but I'll defend your right to live it. Not in all cases, franko. Not with the strict implementation of Sharia.... ah, Kemo Sabe, you misunderstand. I'll defend your right to live your life . . . that does not give you the right to impede me from living my life. but you are right about the strict implementation of Sharia. can you imagine if McGuinty had given in years ago to allowing Sharia? of course, this just adds more fuel to Ms. Marois' fire. I still await the day when the moderate Muslim will speak up and speak out. but I'm afraid we'll have to wait for that because such are afraid for their lives! not much of a god when he/it can't take criticism .Ezra Levant a hero for the average person . . . whodathunkit? or not . . . the pastafarians are almost gaining credibility. it only takes a couple of "true believers" to start a sect/cult/what have you. [and as for the pastafarians, who doesn't believe in at least some of their tenets -- or at least want to -- such as heaven having a beer volcano and stripper factory and Get rid of all your moral standards. Pastafarians enjoy grog, wenches, and anything that can get you a day off of work.?] oh, and Do not persecute any one who does not believe in the FSM should be standard for every religion! |
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Post by CentreHice on Aug 30, 2013 12:33:29 GMT -5
Do pastafarians participate in murder because the FSM commands it for breaking its laws? That began as a satirical movement in protest to intelligent design being taught as an alternative to evolution in Kansas schools. Nothing short of Monty Python, The Onion, etc. If anyone takes it seriously....well, like I said....we'll see if Macaroni Wars break out.  |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 30, 2013 13:16:51 GMT -5
Another day, another way the political and social Islam is showing it's true colours.
What too many in the West do is to "assume" that Islam is a spiritual religion to be practiced in one hearts like most do with the other religions. It's far from it. SOME do as we do, but far too many see it as a social and political instrument that should control THEIR lives and worse, those around them.
As an atheist, I'm pretty tolerant of religion. If it givers them comfort, why not? BUT, the nanosecond it's used as an instrument to dominate and control not only their own, but outsiders, I jump over the fence to hating really fast.
Another thing.....let's stop t his bullsh!t equivilancey garbage. It may also write about "stoning" in the bible, but I never heard any Christian "man of cloth" preach it. Period. Passage like stoning are taken as nothing more then ancient text, not social practice. So some moral equivalent decayed apologist need to get a brain. There is nothing "progressive" about woman in sacks, stoning, hanging of gays and laundry list of medieval practices. Their grossly misplaced self aggrandizing zeal of "protecting minorities" gives nothing more then cover for misogyny and hatred.
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Post by blny on Aug 30, 2013 13:18:23 GMT -5
Organized religion always seems to take the longest to leave the stone age (pardon the pun) behind. Catholicism is being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Islamic Fundamentalists/extremists are definitely still stuck in the past. In more ways than one it really is 'blind faith'. They close their eyes to logic and common decency in favor of their interpretation of the Sharia/Quran.
Eventually, they'll have their own civil uprising. Maybe. As long as their 'Saperlipopette' doesn't taint mine, I don't believe it's the Western world's responsibility to encourage it along. But, if you want to live in the Western world, and be part of a modern society then you should be expected to have a modern view on life and people.
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Post by Cranky on Aug 30, 2013 13:53:17 GMT -5
But, if you want to live in the Western world, and be part of a modern society then you should be expected to have a modern view on life and people. That's the problem. We created a tolerant society to be able to discuss issues and live in a free society within the boundaries of our laws and fundamental freedoms. It seems though that SOME practitioners of this medieval social and political religion have usurped fundamental freedoms like speech and religion. They scream for it's cover so they can preach their garbage. Here is the problem.....where do you draw the line? Do you let this barbarism take cover in our society as free speech and freedom of religion.....or do you peel back it's true nature, expose it and deal with it as the hatred that it is? I'm not sure I want to usurp our fundamental right of free speech. What I am absolutely sure is that we need to expose it and marginalize it and I have a lot of "hate" for any Westerner or vote sucker politician who gives it cover. They are as despicable as the medieval preachers. |
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Post by CentreHice on Aug 30, 2013 14:36:48 GMT -5
It seems logical to me that if imams such as this one enjoy the freedom to espouse what is considered nonsense in this part of the world while meeting all criticism as heresy and blasphemy worthy of jihad...that they have freedom of speech/religion and opposers do not. Such a stance is totalitarian.
I highly recommend watching a few video lectures from renowned Islam scholar, Robert Spencer, who outlines the texts and subsequent hadiths, as well as the contextual history and development. Very easy to see why these adherents think the way they do.
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Post by franko on Aug 30, 2013 14:50:26 GMT -5
Do pastafarians participate in murder because the FSM commands it for breaking its laws? Nope. Of course, the FSM hasn't commanded it . . . instead it proclaims tolerence Do not persecute any one who does not believe in the FSM As I said, this should be standard for every religion! I have no problem with that, in fact. I think that children/students should be taught to think, and that they should be encouraged to continue thinking throughout their lives [sadly, that isn't the case for many conservative or fundamentalist religionists]. So sure, teach about the FSM. Or out-and-out Darwinism. But allow ID as well. Heck, teach seven day Creationism for all I care: put out the alternatives, and let people explain their beliefs. [warning: churchy talk] I tell people that if they are going to say what they believe that they'd better know why they believe it[/churchy talk] I'm not sure that anyone believes it . . . yet. Then again, how many Jedis are there in Canada?  |
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Post by franko on Aug 30, 2013 14:54:15 GMT -5
Another thing.....let's stop t his bullsh!t equivilancey garbage. It may also write about "stoning" in the bible, but I never heard any Christian "man of cloth" preach it. Period. Passage like stoning are taken as nothing more then ancient text, not social practice. Unfortunately, you can say that now, HA, but not so long ago you couldn't. Heck, Fred Phelps still goes to funerals will his "Gays are going to Hell" banners and "God Hates Fags" placards. Makes me ill -- because it looks like he is speaking for me/others of my faith who are far from that mindset. Then again, Bruce Cockburn in his tolerant days sang of using a rocket launcher on people he violently disagreed with. |
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Post by franko on Aug 30, 2013 15:11:30 GMT -5
let me fix that up for you: Organized religion always seems to take the longest to leave the stone age (pardon the pun) behind. Catholicism is being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Catholicism is being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st 20th century they're moving one century at a time, much like the Protestant churches. interesting though that if you spoke to the "Muslim on the street" they'd disagree with the leaders, say it's a bad interpretation, and say "I don't listen to it and you shouldn't either". but enough do listen that the stonings etc continue. I've said before that some historian has suggested that Islam is 500 years behind Christianity [which was how many years behind a tolerant society]. ya, it'll happen . . . eventually. with the void being filled with yet another fundamentalist leader, if history repeats itself. but it is tainting. so what do we do? ignore and it continues. act and it continues with rage. this to a T |
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Post by CentreHice on Aug 30, 2013 15:32:13 GMT -5
[warning: churchy talk] I tell people that if they are going to say what they believe that they'd better know why they believe it[/churchy talk] That's not churchy talk, franko...that's common sense. And I'll bet that many have not truly examined the basis of their beliefs....other than it's what they were told to believe when they were children. We don't come into this world with any pre-set notions about any such belief. I was raised RC. If I was born in Saudi Arabia, I'd stand a very good chance of being an ultra-conservative Wahhabi Muslim. If I was born in ancient Greece, I'd no doubt have believed in Zeus and the rest of that pantheism.....etc. etc. Pretty arbitrary when it's all said and done. Like language....like being a Habs' fan! |
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Post by franko on Aug 30, 2013 15:38:14 GMT -5
[warning: churchy talk] I tell people that if they are going to say what they believe that they'd better know why they believe it[/churchy talk] That's not churchy talk, franko...that's common sense. And I'll bet that many have not truly examined the basis of their beliefs....other than it's what they were told to believe when they were children. We don't come into this world with any pre-set notions about any such belief. I was raised RC. If I was born in Saudi Arabia, I'd stand a very good chance of being an ultra-conservative Wahhabi Muslim. If I was born in ancient Greece, I'd no doubt have believed in Zeus and the rest of that pantheism.....etc. etc. Pretty arbitrary when it's all said and done. Like language....like being a Habs' fan! except cheering for the Habs is always right!  |
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Post by Cranky on Aug 31, 2013 1:34:47 GMT -5
Another thing.....let's stop t his bullsh!t equivilancey garbage. It may also write about "stoning" in the bible, but I never heard any Christian "man of cloth" preach it. Period. Passage like stoning are taken as nothing more then ancient text, not social practice. Unfortunately, you can say that now, HA, but not so long ago you couldn't. Heck, Fred Phelps still goes to funerals will his "Gays are going to Hell" banners and "God Hates Fags" placards. Makes me ill -- because it looks like he is speaking for me/others of my faith who are far from that mindset. Then again, Bruce Cockburn in his tolerant days sang of using a rocket launcher on people he violently disagreed with. The difference is that we collectively throw up on people like that and give them no political cover or moral equivalency apologizing. That is far more then some "progressive" cover of screaming "Islamophobia".....when you point to the rock pile and the half buried woman in a cloth bag. |
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Post by franko on Aug 31, 2013 7:52:05 GMT -5
Unfortunately, you can say that now, HA, but not so long ago you couldn't. Heck, Fred Phelps still goes to funerals will his "Gays are going to Hell" banners and "God Hates Fags" placards. Makes me ill -- because it looks like he is speaking for me/others of my faith who are far from that mindset. Then again, Bruce Cockburn in his tolerant days sang of using a rocket launcher on people he violently disagreed with. The difference is that we collectively throw up on people like that and give them no political cover or moral equivalency apologizing. That is far more then some "progressive" cover of screaming "Islamophobia".....when you point to the rock pile and the half buried woman in a cloth bag. if Phelps could get away with it he would, using his scriptures to justify it. I think the difference is that he is not new to the "enlightened west" so he should know better, whereas "given time, the Imam's could be taught our better way" [which I think is rubbish]. Marois is slightly correct in saying integration rather than multiculturalism. |
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Post by CentreHice on Aug 31, 2013 14:20:48 GMT -5
The late Christopher Hitchens also put it very well re: fundamentalist/militant Islam, and why so few are concerned in the western world. From a lecture in Toronto a few years ago......
"Globally, it's a gigantic power. It controls an enormous amount of oil wealth, several large countries and states. With an enormous fortune, it's pumping the ideology of Wahhabism and Salafism around the world...poisoning societies where it goes, ruining the minds of children, stultifying the young in its Madrassas, training people in violence, making a cult of death and suicide and murder. That's what it does globally, it's quite strong. In our (western) societies, it poses as a cringing minority whose faith you might offend, which deserves all the protection that a small and vulnerable group might need."
The Brampton Imam is making it clearer all the time. I hope he keeps talking.
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