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Post by Willie Dog on Feb 25, 2015 7:57:22 GMT -5
I freely admit I'm an MT basher. He's not an idiot, since you don't get to be an NHL coach if you're an idiot. I see that 'his' success is more likely a product of Carey Price having a career year than any special prowess on Therrien's part and I prefer to be proactive in making changes, rather than waiting for absolute proof that I'm right. I could be wrong too, and Therrien could be the second coming of Scotty Bowman. Time will tell. Carey or not, MT seems to be doing what he needs to be (wait, was that my outside voice?). in his favour, he's not JM. he has the team in first place (sure, base the record on Carey, but it's a team game. we could have Fleury!) final props will come when the Habs win the Cup under him. until then (or maybe just until the end of Lent) I will bite my tongue. I heard on Sportsnet last night that MT is a student of the Jacques Lemaire school of coaching. MT played for him (IIRC) and communicates frequently with Lemaire. This would explain the more defensive oriented style that MT preaches. I too am an MT basher but I'm trying to be positive about the coaching staff. They did a great job preparing the team to play a road game against the blues. They kept the blues to the outside and Carey had a very easy night. Props to the coaching staff. I for one did not like this deal yet I hope I am proved wrong and Devo comes in and provides an element we are lacking. I thought Sekac, if given the opportunity, could have become the 2nd line right wing we have been missing, but I felt he never got the chance to show what he could do, given time to adjust to the smaller ice surface, faster speed of the league and the 3rd line role he was given. The funny thing is MB brought in Sekac to provide some offense I believe, yet MT couldn't find a way to use him in that manner and put him in a checking role, MT basically says he can't trust Sekac, so MB trades him for a more defensive guy that MB thinks MT can trust. Usually when a GM brings a guy in, and Sekac was a big signing considering 12 or so teams were after him, the coach will put that player in a role that is best suited to that player... I don't think MT did that in this case.
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Post by HabSolute on Feb 25, 2015 9:05:40 GMT -5
I wonder if there isn't also a little bit of "room Chemistry" issues that weighted in the decision. MB seem to be VERY diligent and a huge believer in selecting players personality that will fit a very defined mold.
Things we will never know...
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Post by Polarice on Feb 25, 2015 9:49:47 GMT -5
The facts are that we traded a type player we have an abundance of for a type player that we don't. I don't see why we are debating this for 5 pages.
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 25, 2015 10:44:12 GMT -5
IMO, the move has generated much debate because:
1. MB won the Sekac sweepstakes, in terms of the promise of offensive potential...and it wasn't realized.
2. Add--the presumed treatment (usage/lack of confidence) shown by MT.
3. Add--the player acquired is a different type altogether.
I think we're really gonna like DSP, especially in the playoffs. If he lives up to his gritty billing and pots another 5 (or more) playoff goals, he'll be most welcome. And I doubt MB's done tweaking.
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Post by Douper on Feb 25, 2015 10:45:13 GMT -5
The facts are that we traded a type player we have an abundance of for a type player that we don't. I don't see why we are debating this for 5 pages. I think Chris Dyment was debated for 15 pages
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Post by Douper on Feb 25, 2015 10:51:56 GMT -5
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Post by Willie Dog on Feb 25, 2015 10:51:57 GMT -5
IMO, the move has generated much debate because: 1. MB won the Sekac sweepstakes, in terms of the promise of offensive potential...and it wasn't realized. 2. Add--the presumed treatment (usage/lack of confidence) shown by MT. 3. Add--the player acquired is a different type altogether. I think we're really gonna like DSP, especially in the playoffs. If he lives up to his gritty billing and pots another 5 (or more) playoff goals, he'll be most welcome. And I doubt MB's done tweaking. That pretty much sums up why we have 5 pages... The more I think about this trade, the more interested I am in seeing Devo play. It would have been nice to see him in the lineup against the a big team like the blues, but the Blue Jackets are up next and they are also a big team. Looking forward to seeing him play against the Sens. IMO, Jiri was not getting a chance to show what he could do offensively with the Habs and I'm sure he'll get tried out on the top line in Anaheim. I wish him luck, I liked the kid and thought he could really help us out.
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Post by GNick99 on Feb 25, 2015 11:44:44 GMT -5
Bruce Boudreau was on 590 last night, said they tried to get Sekac before. Recently had 4 different scouts watcgh him play before making the trade. Of all the rumours we hear...not one mentioned Ducks scouting us or Sekac or DPS name mentioned in trade rumours.
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Post by franko on Feb 25, 2015 11:58:02 GMT -5
The facts are that we traded a type player we have an abundance of for a type player that we don't. I don't see why we are debating this for 5 pages. because that's what we do best: we over-evaluate every niggling little thing. just because
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Post by Gogie on Feb 25, 2015 12:04:49 GMT -5
The facts are that we traded a type player we have an abundance of for a type player that we don't. I don't see why we are debating this for 5 pages. because that's what we do best: we over-evaluate every niggling little thing. just because And we over value our players and under value other teams' players (and I'm just as guilty of this as anyone else). This is one case where the grass is always greener on our side (i.e., we think our players are better than they really are).
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Post by habsorbed on Feb 25, 2015 13:59:16 GMT -5
I think we have 5 pages (working on 6) because:
1) the trade came out of the blue and stunned many of us as Sekac is and will be a player;
2) some of us saw Sekac as our future. We have not had a young big skating skilled winger since Max and look where he is now;
3) Sekac's play did not disappoint and he played well for his first year in NA and the NHL, seemed to do everything asked of him;
4) He was never given an honest chance - hard to believe with our struggling pp for most of the year Sekac wasn't given an opportunity;
5) He may be a 30 if not 40 goal scorer - SP not likely.
SP may work out but I invested a lot into Sekac believing he was our future - silly me!
GO SP GO!!!
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Post by Polarice on Feb 25, 2015 14:03:12 GMT -5
The facts are that we traded a type player we have an abundance of for a type player that we don't. I don't see why we are debating this for 5 pages. I think Chris Dyment was debated for 15 pages Ya that was fun!!
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Post by Polarice on Feb 25, 2015 14:07:49 GMT -5
I think we have 5 pages (working on 6) because: 1) the trade came out of the blue and stunned many of us as Sekac is and will be a player; 2) some of us saw Sekac as our future. We have not had a young big skating skilled winger since Max and look where he is now; 3) Sekac's play did not disappoint and he played well for his first year in NA and the NHL, seemed to do everything asked of him; 4) He was never given an honest chance - hard to believe with our struggling pp for most of the year Sekac wasn't given an opportunity; 5) He may be a 30 if not 40 goal scorer - SP not likely. SP may work out but I invested a lot into Sekac believing he was our future - silly me! GO SP GO!!! I get all that, and I liked Sekac as much as the next guy. However, like MB said, in order to get what we wanted we had to give up something somebody else wanted. Sometimes trades suck, even if we get the better player, but every year we are going to trade a player that we didn't want to go.
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Post by jkr on Feb 25, 2015 14:39:59 GMT -5
I think we have 5 pages (working on 6) because: 1) the trade came out of the blue and stunned many of us as Sekac is and will be a player; 2) some of us saw Sekac as our future. We have not had a young big skating skilled winger since Max and look where he is now; 3) Sekac's play did not disappoint and he played well for his first year in NA and the NHL, seemed to do everything asked of him; 4) He was never given an honest chance - hard to believe with our struggling pp for most of the year Sekac wasn't given an opportunity; 5) He may be a 30 if not 40 goal scorer - SP not likely. SP may work out but I invested a lot into Sekac believing he was our future - silly me! GO SP GO!!! You're making a lot of assumptions about Sekac's future. Some of what you say about him may never come to pass. And I, for one, was disappointed. A player like Sekac cannot be let off the hook entirely when he has gone over 20 games without a goal.
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 25, 2015 14:45:12 GMT -5
That's my mindset as well, jkr.
He may have played mostly on the third line….but that means he wasn't facing the opposition's best checkers or #1 d-pairings.
Interesting to see how he does in Duckland.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 25, 2015 14:57:54 GMT -5
I wonder if there isn't also a little bit of "room Chemistry" issues that weighted in the decision. MB seem to be VERY diligent and a huge believer in selecting players personality that will fit a very defined mold. Things we will never know... Yeah, there's a lot of things we could be, and probably are, in the dark about. There was a tweet about Sekac not getting along with Pleks and then another tweet about Sekac and Pleks reading this, while Pleks was visiting Sekac at his place, and them having a good laugh about it. Some of the crap that gets spread around is amazing and some of the truth probably stays hidden for years.
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 25, 2015 15:17:15 GMT -5
I wonder if there isn't also a little bit of "room Chemistry" issues that weighted in the decision. MB seem to be VERY diligent and a huge believer in selecting players personality that will fit a very defined mold. Things we will never know... Yeah, there's a lot of things we could be, and probably are, in the dark about. There was a tweet about Sekac not getting along with Pleks and then another tweet about Sekac and Pleks reading this, while Pleks was visiting Sekac at his place, and them having a good laugh about it. Some of the crap that gets spread around is amazing and some of the truth probably stays hidden for years. Get Francois "The Tape" Gagnon on the case….. Gah…I don't miss those days. How did we stomach those soap operatics?
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Post by habsorbed on Feb 25, 2015 15:21:56 GMT -5
I think we have 5 pages (working on 6) because: 1) the trade came out of the blue and stunned many of us as Sekac is and will be a player; 2) some of us saw Sekac as our future. We have not had a young big skating skilled winger since Max and look where he is now; 3) Sekac's play did not disappoint and he played well for his first year in NA and the NHL, seemed to do everything asked of him; 4) He was never given an honest chance - hard to believe with our struggling pp for most of the year Sekac wasn't given an opportunity; 5) He may be a 30 if not 40 goal scorer - SP not likely. SP may work out but I invested a lot into Sekac believing he was our future - silly me! GO SP GO!!! You're making a lot of assumptions about Sekac's future. Some of what you say about him may never come to pass. And I, for one, was disappointed. A player like Sekac cannot be let off the hook entirely when he has gone over 20 games without a goal. Predicting a player's development is usually based on assumptions (and most scouts are terrible at it). Sekac may become another Benny Pouliot and SP another Guilliam Latendresse. I can only go on what I of saw of Sekac each game. And what I saw I liked. Of the two players I'd bet, based on all my assumptions, that if one becomes a star or even a top 6 it will be Sekac.
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Post by GNick99 on Feb 25, 2015 15:44:53 GMT -5
You're making a lot of assumptions about Sekac's future. Some of what you say about him may never come to pass. And I, for one, was disappointed. A player like Sekac cannot be let off the hook entirely when he has gone over 20 games without a goal. Predicting a player's development is usually based on assumptions (and most scouts are terrible at it). Sekac may become another Benny Pouliot and SP another Guilliam Latendresse. I can only go on what I of saw of Sekac each game. And what I saw I liked. Of the two players I'd bet, based on all my assumptions, that if one becomes a star or even a top 6 it will be Sekac. I think 20 goals will max Sekac out...he has skill but not high end skill. Was upset at trade because we need goals and he was so hyped, then never given opportunity on top lines. But trade may work out, DPS take back line duties which allows somebody like Thomas, Hudon or Ghetto a chance at Sekac's minutes.
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Post by blny on Feb 25, 2015 15:47:41 GMT -5
No it doesn't. These guys are both 22. It really could take several years. If they acquired him for this playoff run to get bigger and grittier ... The future holds no impact on why we acquired him now. We might never make the playoffs again for all we know That's a bit bleak, no?
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Post by Skilly on Feb 25, 2015 16:22:46 GMT -5
That's my mindset as well, jkr. He may have played mostly on the third line….but that means he wasn't facing the opposition's best checkers or #1 d-pairings. Interesting to see how he does in Duckland. Actually, it was quite the opposite. As BH pointed out, he and Eller had mostly defensive zone starts against the other teams better lines
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Post by Skilly on Feb 25, 2015 16:24:59 GMT -5
If they acquired him for this playoff run to get bigger and grittier ... The future holds no impact on why we acquired him now. We might never make the playoffs again for all we know That's a bit bleak, no? No, not in the context of the arguement. If the arguement is we traded Sekac to beef up for this playoffs, then the trade needs to be evaluated on this playoffs ...
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Post by Skilly on Feb 25, 2015 17:08:15 GMT -5
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Post by seventeen on Feb 25, 2015 17:21:19 GMT -5
You're making a lot of assumptions about Sekac's future. Some of what you say about him may never come to pass. And I, for one, was disappointed. A player like Sekac cannot be let off the hook entirely when he has gone over 20 games without a goal. Predicting a player's development is usually based on assumptions (and most scouts are terrible at it). Sekac may become another Benny Pouliot and SP another Guilliam Latendresse. I can only go on what I of saw of Sekac each game. And what I saw I liked. Of the two players I'd bet, based on all my assumptions, that if one becomes a star or even a top 6 it will be Sekac. As an FYI, Mr Pouliot is having a very good year. I've watched him play and he's miles ahead of where he was when he played with us. It's really annoying in so many ways, but it appears he's matured at a late age. I thought his contract was crazy and it would have been if he played like he did with the Habs and the Bruins. He's gotten 20 points in 39 games (injured a lot) and he's +2 on a team that was really bad for much of the time he was playing. They've improved recently, but he was injured for most of that stretch and just came back. I can't believe I'm saying he's worth his salary right now. Wow.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 25, 2015 17:32:02 GMT -5
One thing to keep in mind, Skilly, is that the writer, Andrew Berkshire, really doesn't like Therrien (to put it mildly) and he's a big analytics believer. The article is skewed somewhat by that viewpoint. The facts he presents are accurate, I believe, but perhaps his conclusion is stretched a bit. DSP did indeed play with better linemates most of the time and have better starts to his shifts. So his production not being better is a concern, but I don't think Berg was trading for a scorer. He was trading for a 'thick' body who can survive a playoff grind and perhaps contribute in other ways. I still think we have to wait a while to see if anyone got the better of the deal, or if it was a saw-off. I do think there's risk involved here, but there often is with a trade.
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Post by Disp on Feb 25, 2015 17:44:01 GMT -5
You know, adding players who hit can make a difference on the scoresheet. Directly or indirectly. It doesn't always have to be a big hit turnover thing. It can be cumulative. A dman whose been crunched a few times in the first 2 periods might just be more likely to screw up in the third.
This team is still pretty easy to play against.
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Post by jkr on Feb 25, 2015 17:57:56 GMT -5
Anybody read the comments below this EOTP article.
It may be the 1st time I describe comments on a hockey board as pompous. It seems more important for some of the posters ( on that board, not here) to win the argument. One person was actually making the case that Montreal came out on the worse end of the Weise/Diaz deal because Diaz's possesion numbers were so good. (Diaz is on his 4th team in 2 years but no one mentions that). One poster reminded Berkshire that he didn't like that trade either but that was dismissed.
It seems there is no middle ground. Hardcore analytics people seem to want to rely on numbers alone & if you don't buy in you're not worth talking to.
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Post by Disp on Feb 25, 2015 18:18:36 GMT -5
Analytics will never be able to tell the whole story. Too many variables.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 25, 2015 18:31:09 GMT -5
As BH pointed out, he and Eller had mostly defensive zone starts against the other teams better lines This is what I understood a 3rd-line role to be and they weren't all that bad at it ... Cheers.
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 25, 2015 18:33:26 GMT -5
That's my mindset as well, jkr. He may have played mostly on the third line….but that means he wasn't facing the opposition's best checkers or #1 d-pairings. Interesting to see how he does in Duckland. Actually, it was quite the opposite. As BH pointed out, he and Eller had mostly defensive zone starts against the other teams better lines Yep…if he was placed mainly in a checking role (I haven't seen the stats) then that would go far in saying what MT thought of him, in terms of offense. Can't get angry with a player for not producing when he's busy preventing goals from the other team's Top 6. Just have to wait and see how both sides of the deal translate.
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