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Post by NWTHabsFan on May 3, 2016 9:25:59 GMT -5
Another one bites the dust this spring, this time a Jack Adams winner who just so happens to speak both official languages. Hmmm...too bad!!
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Post by jkr on May 3, 2016 9:36:19 GMT -5
A little surprised. I know they had a tough season but they are only a year removed from making the playoffs. Guess I'm looking at from a Montreal perspective.  |
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Post by Boston_Habs on May 3, 2016 9:48:34 GMT -5
Puts some perspective on Therrien. Hartley was in the mix for the Montreal job and was hired in Calgary at the same time as Therrien. The Habs were a better team and made the playoffs 3 times in 4 years, while Calgary only made the playoffs once.
The similarity is both teams regressed significantly this past year, but Hartley paid the price and Therrien didn't. It would be interesting to know what the big issue was with Hartley, but he certainly didn't get any leeway coming of a 97-point season and coach of the year honors.
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Post by jkr on May 3, 2016 9:57:21 GMT -5
I don't know what was like behind closed doors but in public he seemed like a supportive coach that had plenty of praise for his players.
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Post by blny on May 3, 2016 10:02:19 GMT -5
Nuts. Silly, rash, move. I wonder how long before Boudreau lands in Calgary. You have to think that Hartley's dismissal is because there's someone available they like more ...
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Post by jkr on May 3, 2016 10:37:25 GMT -5
Maybe Ottawa takes a look at Hartley?
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Post by blny on May 3, 2016 11:57:48 GMT -5
Treliving saying that the decision wasn't solely based on this season, but a "difference in philosophy." If that's true, then it makes some sense I guess. Still, I think Hartley accomplished a lot with that group. Their defense is one-dimensional (all offensive minded), and the young kids are driving the bus up front. The important parts of that forward group are still quite young.
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Post by seventeen on May 3, 2016 14:57:13 GMT -5
Puts some perspective on Therrien. Hartley was in the mix for the Montreal job and was hired in Calgary at the same time as Therrien. The Habs were a better team and made the playoffs 3 times in 4 years, while Calgary only made the playoffs once. The similarity is both teams regressed significantly this past year, but Hartley paid the price and Therrien didn't. It would be interesting to know what the big issue was with Hartley, but he certainly didn't get any leeway coming of a 97-point season and coach of the year honors. Managing the fans 101: Don't tell them really, truly, why you're replacing someone, just tell them whatever is necessary to keep as many people as possible from getting their feelings hurt, becoming emotional and cancelling season tickets. I'm waiting for more teams to fire their coaches now...all because someone really good has become available. Unfortunately for Boudreau, the leading teams for his services all have the one thing in common that has gotten Bruce fired twice now, despite improving both teams substantially....weak goaltending. Ottawa and Calgary are the leading contenders, though I've read that Minny is also interested, and that's one place that at least has decent goaltending (so far, as who knows what kind of year Dubnyk will have next year). If Bergevin had any real stones, he'd fire Therrien and hire Boudreau on the spot. Every team he's taken on improves dramatically and improves their possession game dramatically. Boudreau is an A-1 coach who suffers from the goalie blues. As I mentioned elseewhere, his eight game 6 and 7 losses combined for an.864 save percentage. If his team was a poor defensive team, you might blame coaching, but that hasn't been the case at all with BB. It's just poor goaltending, which wouldn't be the case in Montreal. Can you imagine how the players would feel having BB behind the bench. The Ducks had the best PK and PP in the NHL last year, by the way. No, it would take a lot of courage and singleminded purpose and focus for Berg to fire Therrien. Won't happen. Gotta keep your word after all, especially after you've so foolishly come out and promised. This is one case where he can truly be called idiotic for doing it. He's not an idiot, but that promise was idiotic. Back to Hartley. I wouldn't hire him. He used to be a favourite candidate of mine, but one reason proposed by a Western writer is that he pushes his players too hard trying to get the most out of them. Sound familiar? Not to mention that his possession stats, like Therrien's, aren't good. Too bad he hasn't learned. Hartley, though, is another case of a coach with goaltenderitis. 2012/13 Joey McDonald .902 and Mikka Kiprusoff (tail end of career) .882 2013/14 Kari Ramo .911 and Reto Berra .897 2014/15 Jonas Hiller .918 and Karri Ramo .912 (they made the playoffs and lost to the Ducks, but finally got average goaltending) 2015/16 Karri Ramo .909, Joni Ortio .902 and Jonas Hiller .879. Very similar to our goaltending. When judging a coach, first rule of thumb is to always check out the goaltending. The last 3 Jack Adams Trophy winners are Bob Hartley, Patrick Roy and Paul McLean. Ring any bells? Just check out the seasons they won and how their goaltending went that year and then the year they were fired. I'm not saying they are good or bad coaches, but how did they win the Coach of the Year? None of them are that good. They just improved the most from the previous year and I wonder how that happened (  . |
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Post by CentreHice on May 3, 2016 15:45:54 GMT -5
When judging a coach, first rule of thumb is to always check out the goaltending. The last 3 Jack Adams Trophy winners are Bob Hartley, Patrick Roy and Paul McLean. Ring any bells? Just check out the seasons they won and how their goaltending went that year and then the year they were fired. I'm not saying they are good or bad coaches, but how did they win the Coach of the Year? None of them are that good. They just improved the most from the previous year and I wonder how that happened ( . No joking….if Price stays healthy and returns to form, Therrien will no doubt get a Jack Adams nomination next season. |
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Post by seventeen on May 3, 2016 15:49:57 GMT -5
When judging a coach, first rule of thumb is to always check out the goaltending. The last 3 Jack Adams Trophy winners are Bob Hartley, Patrick Roy and Paul McLean. Ring any bells? Just check out the seasons they won and how their goaltending went that year and then the year they were fired. I'm not saying they are good or bad coaches, but how did they win the Coach of the Year? None of them are that good. They just improved the most from the previous year and I wonder how that happened ( . No joking….if Price stays healthy and returns to form, Therrien will no doubt get a Jack Adams nomination next season. That's what I'm counting on. I hope he wins.  |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on May 4, 2016 7:13:54 GMT -5
Hartley, though, is another case of a coach with goaltenderitis. 2012/13 Joey McDonald .902 and Mikka Kiprusoff (tail end of career) .882 2013/14 Kari Ramo .911 and Reto Berra .897 2014/15 Jonas Hiller .918 and Karri Ramo .912 (they made the playoffs and lost to the Ducks, but finally got average goaltending) 2015/16 Karri Ramo .909, Joni Ortio .902 and Jonas Hiller .879. Very similar to our goaltending. When judging a coach, first rule of thumb is to always check out the goaltending. The last 3 Jack Adams Trophy winners are Bob Hartley, Patrick Roy and Paul McLean. Ring any bells? Just check out the seasons they won and how their goaltending went that year and then the year they were fired. I'm not saying they are good or bad coaches, but how did they win the Coach of the Year? None of them are that good. They just improved the most from the previous year and I wonder how that happened ( . ^^^ What he said ^^^ Cheers. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on May 4, 2016 8:54:42 GMT -5
Boudreau is an A-1 coach who suffers from the goalie blues. Absolutely. 8 division titles in 9 seasons and a combined record of 409-192-80. That's a win percentage of 60%. He had talented teams to work with in Washington and Anaheim, but that's a very impressive track record in the age of parity and competitive balance. Those playoff losses have been brutal, though. 4 straight Game 7 losses for the Ducks, all at home. Tough to survive that, but you are 100% correct that the difference has been goaltending. |
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Post by CentreHice on May 4, 2016 10:15:05 GMT -5
Boudreau's Caps could've arguably gone to the Finals in 2010. That was an outright steal by Halak in Rnd. 1.
Anyway, Boudreau was born and raised in Toronto...doubtful that he's bilingual, and as such....not on the Habs' radar.
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Post by jkr on May 5, 2016 11:33:34 GMT -5
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Post by blny on May 5, 2016 12:19:39 GMT -5
Their success was driven by a high scoring, but defensively lax, d corps. I would have to investigate, but Giordano, Brodie, Wideman, Hamilton, and Russell (who was traded to Dallas) are not a group that inspires puck control and possession. I see risk takers and turn overs. As a coach, you can only do so much to coach that out.
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Post by seventeen on May 5, 2016 12:46:31 GMT -5
Russell was a sizeable contributor to that poor possession game and he's carried it with him to Dallas. Regardless, teh proof over 4 years is that the team allows a lot more shots against than shots for and that is far too similar to what we have in Montreal. There were stretches this past season where that wasn't the case, but over Therrien's 4 years, the team has not been defensively strong. I wouldn't look at Hartley as a coach any longer. His strengths seem to be motivational, not technical. There have been coaches who have won cups with those strengths/weaknesses though. I'm not sure how Jacques Demers was on systems but he was thought to be a real players coach and he won a Cup. Extremely good goaltending seems to be a requirement in those cases, though.
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Post by blny on May 5, 2016 13:36:03 GMT -5
Russell was a sizeable contributor to that poor possession game and he's carried it with him to Dallas. Regardless, teh proof over 4 years is that the team allows a lot more shots against than shots for and that is far too similar to what we have in Montreal. There were stretches this past season where that wasn't the case, but over Therrien's 4 years, the team has not been defensively strong. I wouldn't look at Hartley as a coach any longer. His strengths seem to be motivational, not technical. There have been coaches who have won cups with those strengths/weaknesses though. I'm not sure how Jacques Demers was on systems but he was thought to be a real players coach and he won a Cup. Extremely good goaltending seems to be a requirement in those cases, though. Doesn't hurt to have Jacques Laperierre behind the bench as an assistant either. If you've got a strong supporting cast, you can play the part of the motivator. |
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Post by seventeen on May 5, 2016 17:42:25 GMT -5
yes. I think Therrien would really benefit from having a systems guy like Boucher on staff. I just don't think the two would co-exist.
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Post by BadCompany on May 8, 2016 9:31:15 GMT -5
From that article: By the time the shot clock hit zero on the Hartley era, there was one incontrovertible truth about his tenure: His teams were outshot at even strength by more than seven shots per game. That’s not just bad by NHL standards, that’s bad in comparison to some of the more beleaguered coaches in recent history. So what do we make of the fact that last year Therrien's team outshot their opponents by 2.73 shots per game? Even strength, the numbers were 3696 to 3475, for a positive differential of 221? Tenth best in the league? For that matter, if shot attempts are supposed to be a strong indicator of puck possession, then what do we make of the fact that we were fifth in the league in shot attempts last season? What does it say that Mike Babcock's Leafs were fourth? |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on May 8, 2016 11:42:18 GMT -5
yes. I think Therrien would really benefit from having a systems guy like Boucher on staff. I just don't think the two would co-exist. Hiring Guy Boucher at this point would probably set new lows for bad drama in Montreal ... if there wasn't a rift between him and Michel Therrien, the media would concoct one ... they'd milk it the same, if not more, than the current PK Subban-trade, PK-Patches, PK-MT rumors ... I just shake my head when I think of just how much damage the media can do to serve their own means ... I don't think they'd be able to coexist either ... Boucher simply wouldn't be a good fit at this time ... Cheers. |
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Post by blny on May 8, 2016 12:20:04 GMT -5
yes. I think Therrien would really benefit from having a systems guy like Boucher on staff. I just don't think the two would co-exist. Hiring Guy Boucher at this point would probably set new lows for bad drama in Montreal ... if there wasn't a rift between him and Michel Therrien, the media would concoct one ... they'd milk it the same, if not more, than the current PK Subban-trade, PK-Patches, PK-MT rumors ... I just shake my head when I think of just how much damage the media can do to serve their own means ... I don't think they'd be able to coexist either ... Boucher simply wouldn't be a good fit at this time ... Cheers. I think it's time the club played hardball with some members of the media who masquerade as journalists. It's time to identify those with clear personal agendas and revoke their credentials. No player availability, no staff availability, no access to Bell Centre property or Brossard, no locker room access on the road. Make it clear, this isn't about controlling what the media write. It's about removing people from landscape that clearly hate the team. And they do hate the team. Good luck stroking your own ego while you "slum it" producing stories from rural Quebec for small town papers and blogs. Not only will they get the message, but their employers will to. If your agenda is to sling mud, alienate, fabricate, and attempt to distract, you're not welcome here. Who knows, maybe a return of the Nordiques will help. Until then, such a move does two things. It's a show of support to the players you currently have in the room, and it's a message to potential UFAs who opt to stay away because of the media. |
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Post by jkr on May 8, 2016 14:26:33 GMT -5
From that article: By the time the shot clock hit zero on the Hartley era, there was one incontrovertible truth about his tenure: His teams were outshot at even strength by more than seven shots per game. That’s not just bad by NHL standards, that’s bad in comparison to some of the more beleaguered coaches in recent history. So what do we make of the fact that last year Therrien's team outshot their opponents by 2.73 shots per game? Even strength, the numbers were 3696 to 3475, for a positive differential of 221? Tenth best in the league? For that matter, if shot attempts are supposed to be a strong indicator of puck possession, then what do we make of the fact that we were fifth in the league in shot attempts last season? What does it say that Mike Babcock's Leafs were fourth? I don't know how to interpret the fact that two bad teams were top 5 in shot attempts. Is there a stat for quality of SA? Maybe they get lots of shots from low % areas. Just guessing here. |
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Post by CentreHice on May 8, 2016 17:19:38 GMT -5
Hiring Guy Boucher at this point would probably set new lows for bad drama in Montreal ... if there wasn't a rift between him and Michel Therrien, the media would concoct one ... they'd milk it the same, if not more, than the current PK Subban-trade, PK-Patches, PK-MT rumors ... I just shake my head when I think of just how much damage the media can do to serve their own means ... I don't think they'd be able to coexist either ... Boucher simply wouldn't be a good fit at this time ... Cheers. I think it's time the club played hardball with some members of the media who masquerade as journalists. It's time to identify those with clear personal agendas and revoke their credentials. No player availability, no staff availability, no access to Bell Centre property or Brossard, no locker room access on the road. Make it clear, this isn't about controlling what the media write. It's about removing people from landscape that clearly hate the team. And they do hate the team. Good luck stroking your own ego while you "slum it" producing stories from rural Quebec for small town papers and blogs. Not only will they get the message, but their employers will to. If your agenda is to sling mud, alienate, fabricate, and attempt to distract, you're not welcome here. Who knows, maybe a return of the Nordiques will help. Until then, such a move does two things. It's a show of support to the players you currently have in the room, and it's a message to potential UFAs who opt to stay away because of the media. Agree, when it comes to yellow/brown journalism. What Babcock did with the Toronto media was bang on. But if such a team stance serves only to protect poor coaching....no sir! I don't think the Montreal journalists went far enough this year. And they should be all over Therrien should we stumble out of the gate next year. |
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Post by blny on May 8, 2016 18:09:29 GMT -5
I think it's time the club played hardball with some members of the media who masquerade as journalists. It's time to identify those with clear personal agendas and revoke their credentials. No player availability, no staff availability, no access to Bell Centre property or Brossard, no locker room access on the road. Make it clear, this isn't about controlling what the media write. It's about removing people from landscape that clearly hate the team. And they do hate the team. Good luck stroking your own ego while you "slum it" producing stories from rural Quebec for small town papers and blogs. Not only will they get the message, but their employers will to. If your agenda is to sling mud, alienate, fabricate, and attempt to distract, you're not welcome here. Who knows, maybe a return of the Nordiques will help. Until then, such a move does two things. It's a show of support to the players you currently have in the room, and it's a message to potential UFAs who opt to stay away because of the media. Agree, when it comes to yellow/brown journalism. What Babcock did with the Toronto media was bang on. But if such a team stance serves only to protect poor coaching....no sir! I don't think the Montreal journalists went far enough this year. And they should be all over Therrien should we stumble out of the gate next year. Totally. This isn't about hiding, and it's not because some writer just put out a piece questioning the ability of the coaching staff. It's about people using their column as a pulpit to preach, cast stones, etc. |
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