Subban

[CentreHice]

After watching it again....PK played it up, no doubt about it.

But, we've all seen players stay down on this ice...e.g. wincing, grabbing a knee....only to be on the ensuing PP.

[seventeen]

May 10, 2017 17:51:07 GMT -5 @mattdhf said:

PK fined for embellishment: $2K

www.tsn.ca/preds-subban-fined-for-embellishment-1.748237

Did Bonino get fined?

[CentreHice]

May 11, 2017 11:18:33 GMT -5 seventeen said:

May 10, 2017 17:51:07 GMT -5 @mattdhf said:

PK fined for embellishment: $2K

www.tsn.ca/preds-subban-fined-for-embellishment-1.748237

Did Bonino get fined?

Has the league ever fined a player for embellishment when it wasn't called on the ice?

I think they should start that practice.

But I'm 100% for video review of fakery and an automatic penalty if guilty.

[seventeen]

Just because the officials missed it on the ice is no reason to have a player avoid punishment. It reinforces the old "if I can get away with it, so much the better for me and my team". Give them a great example of not getting away with it (Say a $50,000 fine) and watch it get stopped in its tracks.

[Skilly]

May 11, 2017 14:30:13 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

May 11, 2017 11:18:33 GMT -5 seventeen said:

Did Bonino get fined?

Has the league ever fined a player for embellishment when it wasn't called on the ice?

I think they should start that practice.

But I'm 100% for video review of fakery and an automatic penalty if guilty.

I believe they have

If I recall last year NHL Ops warned Yakupov of diving in a game he wasn't penalized, and of course there is the infamous withdrawal of diving on one of Brad Marchand's many attempts to try out for the Olympic dive squad

[Skilly]

Here is a good site that lists the divers, and links to the articles where they were fined. This is last year's list

The Embellishment List

[CentreHice]

May 11, 2017 17:39:09 GMT -5 Skilly said:

May 11, 2017 14:30:13 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

Has the league ever fined a player for embellishment when it wasn't called on the ice?

I think they should start that practice.

But I'm 100% for video review of fakery and an automatic penalty if guilty.

I believe they have

I'd like to know more about that. Couldn't have been a first offence. Fines for embellishment don't start until #2.

If Bonino's Pez Dispenser was his first embellishment offence, he wouldn't have been fined. Just Warning 1.


Which begs the question--can video review be used to determine first offence? If so, then Bonino should've been assessed as such.


In short, if Bonino wasn't assessed either a first offence or a fine, the NHL doesn't use video review for embellishment. Or they simply chose to ignore it.

[Skilly]

From the link above


The Diving/Embellishment Review Process
The NHL’s Hockey Operations department tracks every diving or embellishment penalty called on the ice. They also review each game to identify possible dives that were missed by the on-ice officials. (In some cases, they even rescind those diving penalties that may have been called during a game. Boston’s Brad Marchand was the beneficiary of such a modification.)

Once the Hockey Ops team agrees that a dive has taken place, they issue a citation. Sportsnet’s Damien Cox reports that there are nine individuals who participate in the review of each incident. If six decide that a dive has taken place, the player is cited.

[Skilly]

May 11, 2017 17:49:15 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

May 11, 2017 17:39:09 GMT -5 Skilly said:

I believe they have

I'd like to know more about that. Couldn't have been a first offence. Fines for embellishment don't start until #2.

If Bonino's Pez Dispenser was his first embellishment offence, he wouldn't have been fined. Just Warning 1.


Which begs the question--can video review be used to determine first offence? If so, then Bonino should've been assessed as such.


In short, if Bonino wasn't assessed either a first offence or a fine, the NHL doesn't use video review for embellishment. Or they simply chose to ignore it.

Teemu Pulkkinen (Red Wings)

His warning came from Hockey Ops video review
His fine came from Hockey Ops video review

No penalty on either one

From the articles I've read trying to answer your question most first offense warnings came from video review by Hockey Ops

[CentreHice]

Thanks, Skilly!

NHL Hockey Ops can flag and review uncalled embellishment. Protecting the integrity of the game.....


They should review such a play right away...when the consequence would be a short-handed situation to one's team.

Right now, it's just a millionaire's chump change which doesn't affect his team. Big deal.

That Bonino-no had a direct outcome on the series, IMO. The Caps were prevented from having the extra man with Holtby pulled, and they went down 3-1 in the series.

[Willie Dog]

May 11, 2017 18:55:27 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

Thanks, Skilly!

NHL Hockey Ops can flag and review uncalled embellishment. Protecting the integrity of the game.....


They should review such a play right away...when the consequence would be a short-handed situation to one's team.

Right now, it's just a millionaire's chump change which doesn't affect his team. Big deal.

That Bonino-no had a direct outcome on the series, IMO. The Caps were prevented from having the extra man with Holtby pulled, and they went down 3-1 in the series.

What does hockey ops know about integrity of the game?

[CentreHice]

Cherry's Uncontested Podium strikes again.

During the 1st intermission of the Pens-Sens Game 1.

Watching highlights of Nashville-Anaheim....then comes the Subban fake shot/pass to Neal for the OT winner.

Cherry asserts: What I like about Subban too, now....ya don't see him jumpin' around in the warmup (Um, Milbury recently called PK a clown for doing just that, Don)...ya don't see him kinda (kinda what, Don?).....y'know he DID act (act like what, Don?). Y'know, everybody's givin' Montreal heck (for trading Subban)! He acts DIFFERENT now than he did in Montreal! He's MORE of a hockey player! Somebody's got a-hold of him (to talk some sense into him)...he IS more of a hockey player. I think he's more effective now than he's ever been.

Right. Proclaim to all your gullible followers that, in Montreal, PK was a problem and they were right to get rid of him. But when he got to Nashville, somebody must've taken him aside to smarten him up--as PK couldn't possibly have figured out how to "behave properly" all by himself.

Does the astute, well-read hockey guru not know that Poile is on record as saying, "I traded for P.K. Subban, the player and the person....I don't want him to change." Poile also said that PK's persona is "probably the biggest" in the team's history.

PK hasn't changed. He doesn't NEED to change. The difference between Montreal and Nashville is how his GM and coach handle/accept/value/respect what he brings to the table.


MacLean just nodding away.....

Starting at 3:37 of the clip.

[seventeen]

Yup. He found religion in Nashville. Turned his life around. It's not Bergevins fault. If only he'd played like that in Montreal.

Dementia?

[Willie Dog]

May 14, 2017 1:24:08 GMT -5 seventeen said:

Yup. He found religion in Nashville. Turned his life around. It's not Bergevins fault. If only he'd played like that in Montreal.

Dementia?

It was a magical cowboy hat that PK put on when he got to Nashvilke... its made him the player he is today....

The sad part is MT is still getting paid and when MB gets his walking papers next year.. he'll still continue to get paid.... much like the world of CEOs.. do a bad job and still get paid.

[seventeen]

Here's a piece from The Tennessean's Joe Rexrode, on Subban's adjustment. Of note is this comment:

“It’s the feeling, you know?” Subban said of the confidence this team has with a 2-1 lead on the Anaheim Ducks in the Western Conference finals. “The chemistry our team has starts with, I believe, ownership and management. I believe that’s where it starts. Based on the atmosphere you create around the work premises and work environment is how guys are going to feel when they come in to the rink. If you’re going to treat guys in a way where they’re going to love coming to the rink every day and love working hard and practicing and getting better, that’s what’s going to happen. If you don’t create that environment, it makes things a little tougher.

Not a direct shot, but certainly a curve ball.

The rest; www.tennessean.com/story/sports/2017/05/17/p-k-subban-predators-run-its-feeling-you-know/328320001/

[CentreHice]

Seeing as he's been on only two NHL teams....that's as close to direct as it gets.

Subban seldom gives a pat answer. Goes deeper in a very intelligent, articulate manner.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

May 17, 2017 17:22:41 GMT -5 seventeen said:

Here's a piece from The Tennessean's Joe Rexrode, on Subban's adjustment. Of note is this comment:

“It’s the feeling, you know?” Subban said of the confidence this team has with a 2-1 lead on the Anaheim Ducks in the Western Conference finals. “The chemistry our team has starts with, I believe, ownership and management. I believe that’s where it starts. Based on the atmosphere you create around the work premises and work environment is how guys are going to feel when they come in to the rink. If you’re going to treat guys in a way where they’re going to love coming to the rink every day and love working hard and practicing and getting better, that’s what’s going to happen. If you don’t create that environment, it makes things a little tougher.

Not a direct shot, but certainly a curve ball.

The rest; www.tennessean.com/story/sports/2017/05/17/p-k-subban-predators-run-its-feeling-you-know/328320001/

A positive work environment, eh ... who knew ... nice screen shot on Habs' management but he does have a point ... he's still in contention for the Cup while his former team is watching him from the couch ... as an aside, check out Mike Fisher's comments on PK Subban ...

“I never make judgments made on hearsay, not knowing a person,” Fisher added. “I think (Subban’s personality) is something that’s maybe a little different in the hockey culture and people maybe can misunderstand that type of personality. He’s that type that’s energetic, enthusiastic and I think he’s good for the group. I think he can bring the energy up in a room, in a group. We’ve got lots of different personalities in our room. It’s just understanding people I think is the whole thing. Stuff that you hear … I don’t see it.”

Subban said no one with the Predators has asked him to change anything about his personality since he arrived in Nashville. (link)

Cheers.

[CentreHice]

I'm reminded of Devante Smith-Pelly's comments after the Subban trade.

"Me being there and seeing how your best player gets treated sometimes, it's like: why?"

"I could see when I was there that his personality and I guess the coaches personality just didn't work."

"I felt the old school vibes, there's some things that happened... just little things that happened to me personally you could tell it was super super old school."

[Disgruntled70sHab]

May 13, 2017 21:20:03 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

Cherry's Uncontested Podium strikes again.

During the 1st intermission of the Pens-Sens Game 1.

Watching highlights of Nashville-Anaheim....then comes the Subban fake shot/pass to Neal for the OT winner.

Cherry asserts: What I like about Subban too, now....ya don't see him jumpin' around in the warmup (Um, Milbury recently called PK a clown for doing just that, Don)...ya don't see him kinda (kinda what, Don?).....y'know he DID act (act like what, Don?). Y'know, everybody's givin' Montreal heck (for trading Subban)! He acts DIFFERENT now than he did in Montreal! He's MORE of a hockey player! Somebody's got a-hold of him (to talk some sense into him)...he IS more of a hockey player. I think he's more effective now than he's ever been.

Right. Proclaim to all your gullible followers that, in Montreal, PK was a problem and they were right to get rid of him. But when he got to Nashville, somebody must've taken him aside to smarten him up--as PK couldn't possibly have figured out how to "behave properly" all by himself.

Does the astute, well-read hockey guru not know that Poile is on record as saying, "I traded for P.K. Subban, the player and the person....I don't want him to change." Poile also said that PK's persona is "probably the biggest" in the team's history.

PK hasn't changed. He doesn't NEED to change. The difference between Montreal and Nashville is how his GM and coach handle/accept/value/respect what he brings to the table.


MacLean just nodding away.....

Starting at 3:37 of the clip.

Still haven't watched the clip ... I find Don Cherry to be out of touch with the human element of the game ... but here's an article that maybe suggests PK Subban was accepted in Nashville for who he is ...

Predators see fit with P.K. Subban's personality
(link)

Subban's immense popularity and showmanship regularly appeared to clash with the century-old Canadiens' buttoned-down approach. Any apparent conflicts that arose were magnified by being in hockey-mad Montreal, home to an obsessively loyal fan base and large media contingent that detailed his every move.

................

Subban doesn't see himself solely as a hockey player, but also a person with diverse interests who happens to make a living playing the sport. He will bring an electrifying element to the Predators' high-speed offense, a brand that will spread throughout Nashville and potentially more eyes to the franchise than ever before.

The Predators understood all of that when they made the trade. They wanted it.

“I told him the same thing — I traded for P.K. Subban, the player and the person," Poile said. "I could say there’s going to be things that we’re going to find out about him as a player that he can do or can’t do or other things that will come up over time, but I don’t want him to change. We want different players ...

Cheers.

[seventeen]

More proof in the posts above, that the Habs organization may be the most conservative in hockey. That doesn't bode well. There are certain 'old school' core values that last forever, because they're based in truth, but to avoid becoming extinct, one must adjust to changing circumstances. Darwinism is a fact.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Pretty good interview given by Tony Marinaro ... very good listen ... check out "... Canadiens Fans Upset with Subban's Success ..." I agree with quite a bit of what he said ...

Cheers.

[CentreHice]

Many good points there. Thanks for the link!

Only two disagreements....

#1. Subban's end-of-season comment and Awards' comment hurting his cause.

IMO, he knew he was gone if Therrien was staying. Who's looking forward to more unwarranted time under the bus? And he knew his NTC was coming up. He's not stupid.


#2. The interview ends with PK being viewed now as a cog in a greater wheel in Nashville.

And while that's true, he's a cog that's playing top minutes against the other team's best--which includes the likes of Toews, Kane, Tarasenko, Stastny, Steen, Getzlaf, Perry.....and his team is in the Finals.


How about faulting Berg for not building AROUND him. Instead, Berg let his coach build A WALL AROUND him.


In an interview I read recently, Mike Fisher says he doesn't judge people before he meets them....in regards to a question about PK's personality/ego.

Meanwhile, we know that Therrien came into the coaching position as a recent PK-critical pundit on L'Antichambre.

[CentreHice]

If anybody's interested....if you have access....or want to stream it....

This Sunday at 9:00 am on ESPN's E:60 program, Subban will be featured.

There's a teaser clip on Facebook--I can't post it here...but here's the transcript.

==================================

SUBBAN: Really, like, there's a talk show talking about, like, my celebration?

INTERVIEWER: You were "disrespectful". That's what people were saying.

SUBBAN: Well, maybe I was disrespectful to the guy sitting up in, you know, Row 17 in the upper deck when I basically shot an arrow at him. But I don't think I'm disrespecting the game or anything like that.

[EDIT CUT]

SUBBAN: Can I not enjoy playing in the NHL? Can I not enjoy scoring a goal?

[EDIT CUT]

SUBBAN: I mean, I really don't care if you, you don't like it or not, and it's not that it's disrespectful to the game, but I'm sorry....when I score a goal in the National Hockey League against the best players in the world, if I get excited and I want to show my emotions, I will.

===================================

A lot of players have celebrated in signature ways. And nobody has been criticized to this degree.

PK knows that he's the only one routinely maligned for his celebration (among other things--e.g. Milbury's "clown" comment).

Good on PK for giving a very diplomatic and direct answer. More class than such critics deserve, IMO.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Heard the clip on the way into work this morning ... "that's what people are saying," is an extremely unprofessional thing to use as a reference ... doesn't matter what he does, what he says or how he says it, someone, somewhere in the media will try to twist it to sell news ... and they're not letting up on PK Subban ... kind of reminds me of the hatchet job they did on Muhammad Ali, back in the day ...

Cheers.

[Willie Dog]

May 25, 2017 11:27:46 GMT -5 Disgruntled70sHab said:

Heard the clip on the way into work this morning ... "that's what people are saying," is an extremely unprofessional thing to use as a reference ... doesn't matter what he does, what he says or how he says it, someone, somewhere in the media will try to twist it to sell news ... and they're not letting up on PK Subban ... kind of reminds me of the hatchet job they did on Muhammad Ali, back in the day ...

Cheers.

How true Dis... excellent frame of reference re: Ali-Subban... Both were maligned early in their careers. I still think if PK had his current GM and coach when he started in the NHL, this nonsense wouldn't be happening... If your coach and GM don't defend you, why should anyone have any respect for you.... why wouldn't people take cheap shots... especially a moron like Dillbury...

[Disgruntled70sHab]

May 23, 2017 17:13:53 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

#2. The interview ends with PK being viewed now as a cog in a greater wheel in Nashville.

And while that's true, he's a cog that's playing top minutes against the other team's best--which includes the likes of Toews, Kane, Tarasenko, Stastny, Steen, Getzlaf, Perry.....and his team is in the Finals. [/quote

]

... here's a rundown on all of PK Subban's TOI by game ...

... I haven't watched him all that closely to know whether he's on the ice at the same time the opposition's top guns are on ...

... the numbers below suggest that there were games he and Mattias Ekholm were the top pairing, but there's also figures to suggest they weren't ...

Nashville / Chicago

Game #	TOI	D Ranking
Game 1	20:15	4th
Game 2	22:48	3rd
Game 3 (OT)	33:34	2nd
Game 4	24:34	1st

... here's the totals for the St Louis series and you can see that his ice time significantly improved ...

Nashville / St Louis

Game #	TOI	D Ranking
Game 1	23:16	3rd
Game 2	24:46	2nd
Game 3	27:21	1st
Game 4	24:13	4th
Game 5	25:58	2nd
Game 6	27:19	1st

... finally here's his totals from the Anaheim series ...

... I'm not sure if he's always playing against the opposition's top lines ...

... but bear in mind again that the differences in TOI might only be a couple of shifts ...

Nashville / Anaheim

Game #	TOI	D Ranking
Game 1 (OT)	28:03	3rd
Game 2	25:22	1st
Game 3	25:05	3rd
Game 4 (OT)	28:51	2nd
Game 5	26:01	2nd
Game 6	26:41	2nd

... finally, Ekholm has been drawing praise for his playoff performance; however, I think it has a lot to do with his defence partner ...

... I'm kind of disappointed in not hearing anything on that ...

Cheers.

[seventeen]

The other factor in determining PK's ice time is whether the Preds are leading or trailing. When behind, Josi and Ellis are likely to get more ice time. The last 2 games vs the Ducks for example, Subban and Ekholm played about 5 minutes more per game than Ellis and Josi. That's a lot.

[frozone]

May 25, 2017 12:09:20 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

May 25, 2017 11:27:46 GMT -5 Disgruntled70sHab said:

Heard the clip on the way into work this morning ... "that's what people are saying," is an extremely unprofessional thing to use as a reference ... doesn't matter what he does, what he says or how he says it, someone, somewhere in the media will try to twist it to sell news ... and they're not letting up on PK Subban ... kind of reminds me of the hatchet job they did on Muhammad Ali, back in the day ...

Cheers.

How true Dis... excellent frame of reference re: Ali-Subban... Both were maligned early in their careers. I still think if PK had his current GM and coach when he started in the NHL, this nonsense wouldn't be happening... If your coach and GM don't defend you, why should anyone have any respect for you.... why wouldn't people take cheap shots... especially a moron like Dillbury...

Unfortunately, there's apparently nothing that can be done to curb the hatred towards Subban. Gainey defended Subban early in his career:

Gainey’s comments about Subban were very strong in a different way. But still commanding universal respect in hockey, having starred as a player and executive and been a strong voice in shaping policy, don’t think for a heartbeat that his remarks about Subban won’t be heard clear across the league.

“[Subban] is an excellent player, a very talented player. Anyone who’s met him knows his personality is outgoing, overflowing, and it hasn’t yet been tempered with full maturity,” Gainey said of the team’s hugely popular (with some) rookie. “He should have fun and he should play.

“Some of those [critics] should shut up and play against him. Just keep their mouths shut and play. [Subban] doesn’t have a big, tough guy playing beside him to look after him, he looks after himself. Not everybody else in the league who’s an outgoing, above-average player plays in that position.

“Montreal and the NHL are lucky to have him. He’s going to be a better-than-good player for a long time. … He’s difficult to play against, the kind of player [an opponent] has to be conscious of and know that he can hurt you.”

Some good that did...

Just imagine donating $10million to a hospital and people still coming away hating you and questioning your character. It really makes me sick.

[seventeen]

I think the more telling aspect is not the money that he's pledged, it's the time he takes to spend with those kids and other people. He's extremely generous with his time and his comments have consistently shown me that he is a well rounded person with very good values. He's a good citizen and that's the highest compliment I can pay to someone.

[Boston_Habs]

May 18, 2017 7:43:15 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

I'm reminded of Devante Smith-Pelly's comments after the Subban trade.

"Me being there and seeing how your best player gets treated sometimes, it's like: why?"

"I could see when I was there that his personality and I guess the coaches personality just didn't work."

"I felt the old school vibes, there's some things that happened... just little things that happened to me personally you could tell it was super super old school."

Probably the best observations right there.

PK just rubbed Bergevin and Therrien the wrong way. You can debate the merits of the trade, but you can't debate the fact that they wanted him gone. 

The old school thing is weird. You read the quotes by Gainey about PK and he was totally fine, because unlike Berg and MT, Gainey didn't have a stick up his a$$ or an inferiority complex like those guys. Gainey just didn't care about that stuff (although in the end, sadly, he was a horrible GM for the Habs).

But Bergevin and Therrien most certainly did care. Very old school, like much of the league. And as much as I hate to say it, lack of education comes into play. I would say in terms of degree of education and sophistication among senior management, hockey is stocked with more ex players and ex coaches than the other sports. Not that being college educated is a key to success, but education gives you perspective, exposure to different viewpoints, etc. Berg seems like a guy who has an idea of what he wants and how things should be and he doesn't like the deviate. Same with Therrien, but you need to be flexible to succeed and never believe you have all the answers.

Actually, the guy I'm still surprised by is Geoff Molson. He most certainly is well educated, and had a good pulse on PK's impact among the fans, but something tells me he didn't have the nerve to step on Bergevin's toes and veto the trade. Didn't think it was his place, but as an owner in today's sports world, with the stakes and money involved, he most certainly does have the right to make sure his GM doesn't make a deal like that. Old school.