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Post by mikeg on Apr 23, 2017 21:59:24 GMT -5
PK ... round 2
Lars Eller... round 2
David Desharnais.... round 2
Not that any of those guys (pk excluded) made a difference when here but other teams identified them as inportant pieces to their run and they have delievered. It's an indictment for MB imo.
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Post by Willie Dog on Apr 23, 2017 22:02:52 GMT -5
PK ... round 2 Lars Eller... round 2 David Desharnais.... round 2 Not that any of those guys (pk excluded) made a difference when here but other teams identified them as inportant pieces to their run and they have delievered. It's an indictment for MB imo. Lol... the thread title sounds like a tv show... could be a soap opera... |
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Post by PTH on Apr 23, 2017 22:41:19 GMT -5
PK ... round 2 Lars Eller... round 2 David Desharnais.... round 2 Not that any of those guys (pk excluded) made a difference when here but other teams identified them as inportant pieces to their run and they have delievered. It's an indictment for MB imo. Guys like Eller, Kassian and Desharnais are guys you add to a core to try and complement it, I can't really fault MB on letting them go and I don't think there's any kind of an indictment there. Subban and McDonagh though, those two hurt. Moreso McDonagh, since while I love PK and recognize all he can contribute, Weber is different but also a high-level player. We have absolutely nothing to show for McD, even though he was one of our best picks in the past decade (probably only second to Subban). |
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Post by habsorbed on Apr 24, 2017 0:10:05 GMT -5
It's all just confirmation that all these role players are interchangeable. What Eller, DD, and PK all have in common is they are currently surrounded by top end talent which they did not have when in Mtl. So MB continues to move in and out the easy parts but, other than Radulov (who may now be finished as a Hab) has failed to add to our top end talent pool.
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Post by seventeen on Apr 24, 2017 1:48:07 GMT -5
In his shoes I'd be looking to move Weber. Tough trade, but a declining asset with some value. He might get you that important centre. We have defensive talent coming and it's time to take a risk. It weakens the D but we've gone no where with the D we have. If you don't get a centre kiss the next 5 seasons goodbye.
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Post by Willie Dog on Apr 24, 2017 6:18:55 GMT -5
PK ... round 2 Lars Eller... round 2 David Desharnais.... round 2 Not that any of those guys (pk excluded) made a difference when here but other teams identified them as inportant pieces to their run and they have delievered. It's an indictment for MB imo. Guys like Eller, Kassian and Desharnais are guys you add to a core to try and complement it, I can't really fault MB on letting them go and I don't think there's any kind of an indictment there. Subban and McDonagh though, those two hurt. Moreso McDonagh, since while I love PK and recognize all he can contribute, Weber is different but also a high-level player. We have absolutely nothing to show for McD, even though he was one of our best picks in the past decade (probably only second to Subban). I agree McD and PK would have been very dynamic and given us a 1-2 punch on D. |
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Post by blny on Apr 24, 2017 7:04:49 GMT -5
In his shoes I'd be looking to move Weber. Tough trade, but a declining asset with some value. He might get you that important centre. We have defensive talent coming and it's time to take a risk. It weakens the D but we've gone no where with the D we have. If you don't get a centre kiss the next 5 seasons goodbye. I don't think he'd be that hard to trade at all. His NMC/NTC was voided for the life of the contract when he was traded to Montreal. This isn't always the case, but in Weber's case he waived it for the life of the deal. The recapture penalty stays with Nashville. Montreal doesn't have to worry about it, and neither does anyone he might go to. They just need the space. If you wanted to get ballsy, you could go to Vegas and say, "would you be interested in trading your first three picks for Weber?" They're guaranteed no lower than 6th. They have same odds at #1 as the third worst team (Arizona). They get a big name, a captain, a capable player and a face. Montreal gets a top pick. It's not a stupendous year for the amateur draft, but the experts are slowly coming around to the idea that it's not as thin as they first felt. No supreme top end player perhaps, but more quality than expected. All that said, I'd be disinclined to do it. If you want Carey back, I don't believe trading a fellow BC boy is the right way to go about it. Weber was not our problem. He did everything I asked. Our top 3 performed well. Benn was in over his head playing top 4, but as a third pair anchor I like him. The rest is problematic. Goal scoring could be addressed by a Russian injection, and Pacioretty could be moved for a high value top pair pmd of a similar to slightly young age. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Apr 24, 2017 7:16:16 GMT -5
In his shoes I'd be looking to move Weber. Tough trade, but a declining asset with some value. He might get you that important centre. We have defensive talent coming and it's time to take a risk. It weakens the D but we've gone no where with the D we have. If you don't get a centre kiss the next 5 seasons goodbye. I don't think he'd be that hard to trade at all. His NMC/NTC was voided for the life of the contract when he was traded to Montreal. This isn't always the case, but in Weber's case he waived it for the life of the deal. The recapture penalty stays with Nashville. Montreal doesn't have to worry about it, and neither does anyone he might go to. They just need the space. If you wanted to get ballsy, you could go to Vegas and say, "would you be interested in trading your first three picks for Weber?" They're guaranteed no lower than 6th. They have same odds at #1 as the third worst team (Arizona). They get a big name, a captain, a capable player and a face. Montreal gets a top pick. It's not a stupendous year for the amateur draft, but the experts are slowly coming around to the idea that it's not as thin as they first felt. No supreme top end player perhaps, but more quality than expected. All that said, I'd be disinclined to do it. If you want Carey back, I don't believe trading a fellow BC boy is the right way to go about it. Weber was not our problem. He did everything I asked. Our top 3 performed well. Benn was in over his head playing top 4, but as a third pair anchor I like him. The rest is problematic. Goal scoring could be addressed by a Russian injection, and Pacioretty could be moved for a high value top pair pmd of a similar to slightly young age. Do you guys believe Bergevin would deal Weber under ANY circumstances? He'll be fired before that happens. |
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Post by blny on Apr 24, 2017 7:29:06 GMT -5
Do you guys believe Bergevin would deal Weber under ANY circumstances? He'll be fired before that happens. I'd be absolutely shocked if he was. There are so many bad optics involved. I just outlined a scenario that came to me. "What team could use a veteran d man, has the cap space, etc?" Personally, I wouldn't trade him as I don't believe he was the reason for us bowing out. Undo the trade, and I don't believe the result would be different. PK isn't adding more goals. |
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Post by mikeg on Apr 24, 2017 9:14:02 GMT -5
Almost forgot to add Guy Boucher coaching in the 2nd round... couldda been ours had MB not played foxhole bros with MT
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Post by blny on Apr 24, 2017 9:17:23 GMT -5
Almost forgot to add Guy Boucher coaching in the 2nd round... couldda been ours had MB not played foxhole bros with MT We could have been in the second round too if we played Boston who were missing two of their top 4 d. Boucher didn't do anything special. Bobby Ryan finally showed up for a playoff series and Karlsson was Karlsson. Aside from that, Boucher utilized his trap whenever they had a lead - and they nearly blew games doing it. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Apr 24, 2017 9:19:24 GMT -5
Almost forgot to add Guy Boucher coaching in the 2nd round... couldda been ours had MB not played foxhole bros with MT I don't blame CJ... we don't have a Karlsson... he was a difference maker for the Sens.. plus the Sens win 3 games in OT over a Bruins team missing 2 of their top 5 D including Krug who is their best D on the PP. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Apr 24, 2017 9:21:16 GMT -5
Almost forgot to add Guy Boucher coaching in the 2nd round... couldda been ours had MB not played foxhole bros with MT We could have been in the second round too if we played Boston who were missing two of their top 4 d. Boucher didn't do anything special. Bobby Ryan finally showed up for a playoff series and Karlsson was Karlsson. Aside from that, Boucher utilized his trap whenever they had a lead - and they nearly blew games doing it. Well see how Bobby 'made of glass' Ryan fairs when the rags start hacking and crosschecking |
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Post by blny on Apr 24, 2017 9:33:20 GMT -5
We could have been in the second round too if we played Boston who were missing two of their top 4 d. Boucher didn't do anything special. Bobby Ryan finally showed up for a playoff series and Karlsson was Karlsson. Aside from that, Boucher utilized his trap whenever they had a lead - and they nearly blew games doing it. Well see how Bobby 'made of glass' Ryan fairs when the rags start hacking and crosschecking One clean hit to MacArthur and he's done. Ryan has health issues to be sure. Karlsson is playing on a heel with two hairline fractures. After him, I think their defense is susceptible to a strong fore check. The Bruins aren't as big up front as the Rangers. Lundqvist definitely seems more focused than he was last year. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Apr 24, 2017 9:47:00 GMT -5
Well see how Bobby 'made of glass' Ryan fairs when the rags start hacking and crosschecking One clean hit to MacArthur and he's done. Ryan has health issues to be sure. Karlsson is playing on a heel with two hairline fractures. After him, I think their defense is susceptible to a strong fore check. The Bruins aren't as big up front as the Rangers. Lundqvist definitely seems more focused than he was last year. If Girardi hits MacArthur or Ryan like he hit Shaw... they're done for the series |
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Post by Skilly on Apr 24, 2017 10:45:10 GMT -5
In his shoes I'd be looking to move Weber. Tough trade, but a declining asset with some value. He might get you that important centre. We have defensive talent coming and it's time to take a risk. It weakens the D but we've gone no where with the D we have. If you don't get a centre kiss the next 5 seasons goodbye. I don't think he'd be that hard to trade at all. His NMC/NTC was voided for the life of the contract when he was traded to Montreal. This isn't always the case, but in Weber's case he waived it for the life of the deal. The recapture penalty stays with Nashville. Montreal doesn't have to worry about it, and neither does anyone he might go to. They just need the space. If you wanted to get ballsy, you could go to Vegas and say, "would you be interested in trading your first three picks for Weber?" They're guaranteed no lower than 6th. They have same odds at #1 as the third worst team (Arizona). They get a big name, a captain, a capable player and a face. Montreal gets a top pick. It's not a stupendous year for the amateur draft, but the experts are slowly coming around to the idea that it's not as thin as they first felt. No supreme top end player perhaps, but more quality than expected. All that said, I'd be disinclined to do it. If you want Carey back, I don't believe trading a fellow BC boy is the right way to go about it. Weber was not our problem. He did everything I asked. Our top 3 performed well. Benn was in over his head playing top 4, but as a third pair anchor I like him. The rest is problematic. Goal scoring could be addressed by a Russian injection, and Pacioretty could be moved for a high value top pair pmd of a similar to slightly young age. Montreal is on the hook for recapture penalties if Weber retires in the next three years. It isn't much, however ... 2017-18 - Montreal's recapture penalty is $460,000 2018-19 - Montreal's recapture penalty is $286,000 2019-20 - Montreal recapture penalty is $61,000 After that it's $0 ... But if Weber retires when he is 39, Nashville gets hit with $24,000,000 ... I don't ever see it happening, as it's likely he'd just be put on LTIR. Can't really think what would drive Shea Weber to retire other than injury. Thank you Paul Holmgren ...  |
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Post by blny on Apr 24, 2017 10:57:05 GMT -5
I don't think he'd be that hard to trade at all. His NMC/NTC was voided for the life of the contract when he was traded to Montreal. This isn't always the case, but in Weber's case he waived it for the life of the deal. The recapture penalty stays with Nashville. Montreal doesn't have to worry about it, and neither does anyone he might go to. They just need the space. If you wanted to get ballsy, you could go to Vegas and say, "would you be interested in trading your first three picks for Weber?" They're guaranteed no lower than 6th. They have same odds at #1 as the third worst team (Arizona). They get a big name, a captain, a capable player and a face. Montreal gets a top pick. It's not a stupendous year for the amateur draft, but the experts are slowly coming around to the idea that it's not as thin as they first felt. No supreme top end player perhaps, but more quality than expected. All that said, I'd be disinclined to do it. If you want Carey back, I don't believe trading a fellow BC boy is the right way to go about it. Weber was not our problem. He did everything I asked. Our top 3 performed well. Benn was in over his head playing top 4, but as a third pair anchor I like him. The rest is problematic. Goal scoring could be addressed by a Russian injection, and Pacioretty could be moved for a high value top pair pmd of a similar to slightly young age. Montreal is on the hook for recapture penalties if Weber retires in the next three years. It isn't much, however ... 2017-18 - Montreal's recapture penalty is $460,000 2018-19 - Montreal's recapture penalty is $286,000 2019-20 - Montreal recapture penalty is $61,000 After that it's $0 ... But if Weber retires when he is 39, Nashville gets hit with $24,000,000 ... I don't ever see it happening, as it's likely he'd just be put on LTIR. Can't really think what would drive Shea Weber to retire other than injury. Thank you Paul Holmgren ... Good clarification. I'm hopeful that the league buttons up that ltir loophole. "No more than two seasons on LTIR. At that point, if a physical can't be passed, the player has to retire. Any penalties that pertain to the player contract, as relates to the cap, will be applied at that time." Or something to that effect. |
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Post by seventeen on Apr 24, 2017 10:57:52 GMT -5
I don't think he'd be that hard to trade at all. His NMC/NTC was voided for the life of the contract when he was traded to Montreal. This isn't always the case, but in Weber's case he waived it for the life of the deal. The recapture penalty stays with Nashville. Montreal doesn't have to worry about it, and neither does anyone he might go to. They just need the space. If you wanted to get ballsy, you could go to Vegas and say, "would you be interested in trading your first three picks for Weber?" They're guaranteed no lower than 6th. They have same odds at #1 as the third worst team (Arizona). They get a big name, a captain, a capable player and a face. Montreal gets a top pick. It's not a stupendous year for the amateur draft, but the experts are slowly coming around to the idea that it's not as thin as they first felt. No supreme top end player perhaps, but more quality than expected. All that said, I'd be disinclined to do it. If you want Carey back, I don't believe trading a fellow BC boy is the right way to go about it. Weber was not our problem. He did everything I asked. Our top 3 performed well. Benn was in over his head playing top 4, but as a third pair anchor I like him. The rest is problematic. Goal scoring could be addressed by a Russian injection, and Pacioretty could be moved for a high value top pair pmd of a similar to slightly young age. Do you guys believe Bergevin would deal Weber under ANY circumstances? He'll be fired before that happens. You'll note I didn't say Berg would do it. It would be a huge admission of error and his ego's too big for thT. I'd check out his value, for sure. Maybe even Price and Patches. Get the ball rolling for next generation. Get first rounders for 2018. Drastic? You bet. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Apr 24, 2017 11:11:38 GMT -5
One clean hit to MacArthur and he's done. Ryan has health issues to be sure. Karlsson is playing on a heel with two hairline fractures. After him, I think their defense is susceptible to a strong fore check. The Bruins aren't as big up front as the Rangers. Lundqvist definitely seems more focused than he was last year. If Girardi hits MacArthur or Ryan like he hit Shaw... they're done for the series Maybe, but they're still playing and we're not. I actually think the Sens have a solid team: Top 6: Hoffman, Turris, Stone, Ryan, Brassard, Pageau Top 4: Karlsson, Phaneuf, Ceci, Methot G: Anderson And they have done something that the Habs have NOT.... graduate players from the AHL to the NHL. Two of their best forwards are Mike Hoffman (5th round pick) and Mark Stone (6th round pick). Both guys basically spent 2 years seasoning in the AHL and are now top 6 players. Nathan Beaulieu is the ONLY player on the Habs under this regime who spent as much as a full season in the AHL. Berg has consistently looked outside to fill those roles (Mitchell, Flynn, Shaw, Ott, King, etc.), while players like Scherbak, de la Rose, and Hudon get stalled in the minors. Oh, McCarron is another one but he looks like a bust to me. People get hung up on the draft, but DEVELOPMENT is a key part of the process. Some guys are good enough to make the jump from junior to the NHL with only a short stop in the AHL, but guys like Stone and Hoffman show that it's possible to take lower draft picks, nurture and develop their games, and turn them into productive NHLers. We do a HORRIBLE job at that, and while you can lay a lot of blame at Sylvain Lefebvre, that also falls back to the GM. He has to own the whole system. |
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Post by blny on Apr 24, 2017 11:18:02 GMT -5
The AHL has been a blackhole for a while. I think we all agree on that.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Apr 24, 2017 11:38:17 GMT -5
Do you guys believe Bergevin would deal Weber under ANY circumstances? He'll be fired before that happens. I'd be absolutely shocked if he was. There are so many bad optics involved. I just outlined a scenario that came to me. "What team could use a veteran d man, has the cap space, etc?" Personally, I wouldn't trade him as I don't believe he was the reason for us bowing out. Undo the trade, and I don't believe the result would be different. PK isn't adding more goals. We're talking about the player who came back in the PK Subban trade ... dealing Weber would be professional suicide for not only the GM, but the organization as a whole ... and, I think you're right in that Subban wouldn't have made all that big a difference ... whatever plagued Montreal during Subban's tenure, is still in that dressing room and until they sort that out we're going to be privy to the same routine every season ... edit: addressing the lack of offence would be acceptable, too ... Cheers. |
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Post by blny on Apr 24, 2017 11:39:25 GMT -5
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Apr 24, 2017 11:41:38 GMT -5
If Girardi hits MacArthur or Ryan like he hit Shaw... they're done for the series Maybe, but they're still playing and we're not. I actually think the Sens have a solid team: Top 6: Hoffman, Turris, Stone, Ryan, Brassard, Pageau Top 4: Karlsson, Phaneuf, Ceci, Methot G: Anderson And they have done something that the Habs have NOT.... graduate players from the AHL to the NHL. Two of their best forwards are Mike Hoffman (5th round pick) and Mark Stone (6th round pick). Both guys basically spent 2 years seasoning in the AHL and are now top 6 players. Nathan Beaulieu is the ONLY player on the Habs under this regime who spent as much as a full season in the AHL. Berg has consistently looked outside to fill those roles (Mitchell, Flynn, Shaw, Ott, King, etc.), while players like Scherbak, de la Rose, and Hudon get stalled in the minors. Oh, McCarron is another one but he looks like a bust to me. People get hung up on the draft, but DEVELOPMENT is a key part of the process. Some guys are good enough to make the jump from junior to the NHL with only a short stop in the AHL, but guys like Stone and Hoffman show that it's possible to take lower draft picks, nurture and develop their games, and turn them into productive NHLers. We do a HORRIBLE job at that, and while you can lay a lot of blame at Sylvain Lefebvre, that also falls back to the GM. He has to own the whole system. So much for the Ol' Boys system of doing business ... Cheers. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Apr 24, 2017 12:07:55 GMT -5
I'd be absolutely shocked if he was. There are so many bad optics involved. I just outlined a scenario that came to me. "What team could use a veteran d man, has the cap space, etc?" Personally, I wouldn't trade him as I don't believe he was the reason for us bowing out. Undo the trade, and I don't believe the result would be different. PK isn't adding more goals. We're talking about the player who came back in the PK Subban trade ... dealing Weber would be professional suicide for not only the GM, but the organization as a whole ... and, I think you're right in that Subban wouldn't have made all that big a difference ... whatever plagued Montreal during Subban's tenure, is still in that dressing room and until they sort that out we're going to be privy to the same routine every season ... edit: addressing the lack of offence would be acceptable, too ... Cheers. FWIW, the stats would tell you that PK would have made a REAL difference in this series, when you consider how close it was. PK vs. Weber Corsi 57% 52% GF/60 2.89 1.96 GA/60 0.72 1.47 xGF/60 3.03 2.64 xGA/60 2.03 2.16 All of PK's stats are the best on the Preds, who just swept Chicago. And it was no fluke. Although he hasn't scored, PK has been a dominant player just about every time he's on the ice. He was more impactful than Weber or any other Habs dman was against the Rangers. He drove possession, scoring differential, and expected scoring differential based on the quality of chances for and against. I know I'm a broken record, but we win this series with PK instead of Weber. It was close enough that PK's stats and talent would have driven enough incremental offense without sacrificing defense to account for the tiny margin in the series. |
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Post by Skilly on Apr 24, 2017 15:05:47 GMT -5
Possible ... But PK can't make our forwards score, nor could Weber
Nashville has more talent up front. More finishers. I don't think we beat the Rangers with Subban, not unless he provided goals on the PP
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Post by clear observer on Apr 25, 2017 11:34:24 GMT -5
FWIW, the stats would tell you that PK would have made a REAL difference in this series, when you consider how close it was. PK vs. Weber Corsi 57% 52% GF/60 2.89 1.96 GA/60 0.72 1.47 xGF/60 3.03 2.64 xGA/60 2.03 2.16 All of PK's stats are the best on the Preds, who just swept Chicago. And it was no fluke. Although he hasn't scored, PK has been a dominant player just about every time he's on the ice. He was more impactful than Weber or any other Habs dman was against the Rangers. He drove possession, scoring differential, and expected scoring differential based on the quality of chances for and against. I know I'm a broken record, but we win this series with PK instead of Weber. It was close enough that PK's stats and talent would have driven enough incremental offense without sacrificing defense to account for the tiny margin in the series. This 100% |
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Post by blny on Apr 25, 2017 12:38:07 GMT -5
Those numbers don't take into consideration forwards who aren't scoring. PK might be setting them up, but unless they finish ...
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Post by habsorbed on Apr 25, 2017 12:54:36 GMT -5
I love PK and was, and still am, against the trade. BUT having watched the Preds, it's comparing apples and oranges to compare PK's situation and stats in Nashville to that on the Habs. PK is not the Preds #1 dman. They have four solid, if not elite D who share all shut down responsibilities as well as PP and PK duties. PK is not there leading TOI Dman either. And he certainly is nowhere near logging the tough critical minutes Weber does. As well, unlike Weber, PK has been able to play with a solid partner and good forwards all year long. Weber has fluctuated between Emelin, Beau, and Ol' Man Markov.
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Post by clear observer on Apr 26, 2017 9:58:58 GMT -5
I love PK and was, and still am, against the trade. BUT having watched the Preds, it's comparing apples and oranges to compare PK's situation and stats in Nashville to that on the Habs. PK is not the Preds #1 dman. They have four solid, if not elite D who share all shut down responsibilities as well as PP and PK duties. PK is not there leading TOI Dman either. And he certainly is nowhere near logging the tough critical minutes Weber does. As well, unlike Weber, PK has been able to play with a solid partner and good forwards all year long. Weber has fluctuated between Emelin, Beau, and Ol' Man Markov. Shea Weber as a Canadien - post-season: 6GP 1G 2A 3PTS +1 PK Subban as a Canadien - post-season: 55GP 11G 27A 38PTS +31 Gonna have to say that on THIS version of the Canadiens, PK Subban would have been a more valuable asset. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Apr 26, 2017 10:24:30 GMT -5
Gonna have to say that on THIS version of the Canadiens, PK Subban would have been a more valuable asset. Nobody wants to hear it anymore, but given the talent makeup of the Habs, losing Subban's unique offensive skills was simply a luxury the Habs couldn't afford. Weber brings a different element to his game and he was arguably a better PP weapon with a more accurate shot, but even if you give Weber a slight edge in goal prevention and intangibles such as "leadership" (which I'm not even willing to concede, but whatever), that is far outweighed by what PK does at even strength on the offensive side of the equation. And for those who say "get over it", well the whole point of the trade was to facilitate a deep playoff run so it is ABSOLUTELY fair game to come right back to it in the context of a 1st round playoff exit where it was precisely a lack of offense (not toughness) that led to our downfall. I get that you can't just substitute PK for Weber and hold everything else constant, but in a series that turned on such a tiny margin of difference and our inability to generate consistent offense, particularly in Games 4 and 6, I am convinced that PK would have been significant offensive upgrade over Weber and probably enough to swing the series. |
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