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Post by franko on May 1, 2018 10:56:35 GMT -5
I'm just not shocked. I'm trying not to (sorry) dis the GM, but what, he wants another puck moving d to trade away for a winger to turn into a centre? Like I said, I think TSN is misquoting him. The 'trade back' is really "trade back in", and I believe he's referring to the possibility that Montreal might use some of the 4 second round picks as capital to move into the first round. agree. then there's "the Max factor" (cue the shampoo pic). I'm just hoping he doesn't trade down to (or worse, out-and-out) pick Boqvist. or Tkachuk. of course the draft is a crap shoot (Daigle, anyone?) but at 3 take the BPA and that's Zadina, no? unless Carolina wants to make a deal . . . |
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Post by blny on May 1, 2018 11:05:41 GMT -5
Like I said, I think TSN is misquoting him. The 'trade back' is really "trade back in", and I believe he's referring to the possibility that Montreal might use some of the 4 second round picks as capital to move into the first round. agree. then there's "the Max factor" (cue the shampoo pic). I'm just hoping he doesn't trade down to (or worse, out-and-out) pick Boqvist. or Tkachuk. of course the draft is a crap shoot (Daigle, anyone?) but at 3 take the BPA and that's Zadina, no? unless Carolina wants to make a deal . . . There's a real "buy low" hard sell movement on HF. Typical, in that tomorrow's prospect is worth more than today's sure thing. But, it's hard to say what his value is at this point. If Montreal can't get two strong assets for him, I see them keeping him. I don't think the Canes selecting Svechnikov is a foregone conclusion. They have Necas, as folatre I believe pointed out. Necas and Zadina played together at the 2018 U20 for the Czechs and were excellent. Might just be that they see value in pairing them together in the NHL> |
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Post by franko on May 1, 2018 12:01:54 GMT -5
agree. then there's "the Max factor" (cue the shampoo pic). I'm just hoping he doesn't trade down to (or worse, out-and-out) pick Boqvist. or Tkachuk. of course the draft is a crap shoot (Daigle, anyone?) but at 3 take the BPA and that's Zadina, no? unless Carolina wants to make a deal . . . There's a real "buy low" hard sell movement on HF. Typical, in that tomorrow's prospect is worth more than today's sure thing. But, it's hard to say what his value is at this point. If Montreal can't get two strong assets for him, I see them keeping him. I don't think the Canes selecting Svechnikov is a foregone conclusion. They have Necas, as folatre I believe pointed out. Necas and Zadina played together at the 2018 U20 for the Czechs and were excellent. Might just be that they see value in pairing them together in the NHL> Ya heard that too. But Carolina may not make it easy Want the guy? We're not sure, we might too. What will you offer us to NOT take him? |
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Post by blny on May 1, 2018 12:15:24 GMT -5
There's a real "buy low" hard sell movement on HF. Typical, in that tomorrow's prospect is worth more than today's sure thing. But, it's hard to say what his value is at this point. If Montreal can't get two strong assets for him, I see them keeping him. I don't think the Canes selecting Svechnikov is a foregone conclusion. They have Necas, as folatre I believe pointed out. Necas and Zadina played together at the 2018 U20 for the Czechs and were excellent. Might just be that they see value in pairing them together in the NHL> Ya heard that too. But Carolina may not make it easy Want the guy? We're not sure, we might too. What will you offer us to NOT take him? That would be smart, but smart seems to be in short supply. Like common sense.  |
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Post by seventeen on May 1, 2018 12:59:21 GMT -5
That's a difference of opinion 😉 More of a difference of interpretation See "any government or tin pot dictatorship" |
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Post by seventeen on May 1, 2018 13:06:39 GMT -5
At every draft there seems to be a ton of speculation on some high end picks being traded down or up. Invariably, and probably due to the fact NHL GM's are so much more conservative than those in other sports, nothing happens and the teams just exercise their picks. I expect that this year as well. We'll get Zadina.
The NBA is so much more fun than the NHL in so many ways. Great players get traded, #! overall picks get traded, despite the fact in Basketball, more than any other sport, a great player makes more difference and has much greater value. Weird huh?, but so much fun.
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Post by clear observer on May 1, 2018 13:15:50 GMT -5
...Carolina may not make it easy Want the guy? We're not sure, we might too. What will you offer us to NOT take him? |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on May 1, 2018 13:31:10 GMT -5
Listening to Apron Basu earlier and he sounded like Marc Bergevin was actually leaning towards keeping his pick ...
Cheers.
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Post by Tankdriver on May 8, 2018 11:26:45 GMT -5
Well I don't know if this is good or not, but Tkachuk has committed to playing next year at BU delaying his chance to play in the NHL by a year. It becomes a little more risky now because he could potentially pull a Vessey and become a free agent if he doesn't sign. I am not saying he will, or because a lot of Canadian teams are at the top of the draft this year, but it is still something to consider.
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Post by seventeen on May 8, 2018 11:43:21 GMT -5
Well I don't know if this is good or not, but Tkachuk has committed to playing next year at BU delaying his chance to play in the NHL by a year. It becomes a little more risky now because he could potentially pull a Vessey and become a free agent if he doesn't sign. I am not saying he will, or because a lot of Canadian teams are at the top of the draft this year, but it is still something to consider. He's not overcoming Zadina or Svechnikov, so for us it becomes a moot point. Worrisome for some of the teams picking where he is slotted to go (which seems like its dropping in some circles and not in others). |
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Post by folatre on May 8, 2018 13:27:30 GMT -5
Logic would say it is non-issue for the Habs. Ottawa and Vancouver should be careful. This is entirely a guess, but I kind of see Tkachuk going to Arizona or Detroit, with the possibility that the Islanders or Flyers move up to grab him.
Over the weekend I asked the only NHL scout I know (his grandson plays on my son's mini-mite team) if he would go off script at #3. He said in this draft no way. Svechnikov and Zadina are too good to pass up. Interestingly he commented that he likes Kotkaniemi more than Tkachuk and Wahlstrom and anticipates that 4-7 will be a run on high quality d-men in this draft.
Time will say. For me when there is an almost widely accepted demarcation of talent tiers in top ten of the draft then it makes little sense to pick based on current roster need. Moreover, Montreal does not score goals at a rate that even resembles a mediocre NHL team so passing up an elite 19-20 sniper is borderline crazy.
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Post by blny on May 8, 2018 13:42:09 GMT -5
Logic would say it is non-issue for the Habs. Ottawa and Vancouver should be careful. This is entirely a guess, but I kind of see Tkachuk going to Arizona or Detroit, with the possibility that the Islanders or Flyers move up to grab him. Over the weekend I asked the only NHL scout I know (his grandson plays on my son's mini-mite team) if he would go off script at #3. He said in this draft no way. Svechnikov and Zadina are too good to pass up. Interestingly he commented that he likes Kotkaniemi more than Tkachuk and Wahlstrom and anticipates that 4-7 will be a run on high quality d-men in this draft. Time will say. For me when there is an almost widely accepted demarcation of talent tiers in top ten of the draft then it makes little sense to pick based on current roster need. Moreover, Montreal does not score goals at a rate that even resembles a mediocre NHL team so passing up an elite 19-20 sniper is borderline crazy. Good insight from the inside there folatre. Kotkaniemi is definitely moving up the ranks. Button has him at #5 I believe. The only way I see us being able to snipe him is if Bergevin can pull off a move with Pacioretty that lands a pick inside the top 15. Then Montreal has to add at least a couple of those second rounders they have to that acquired pick in order to move up. |
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Post by Tankdriver on May 8, 2018 14:39:51 GMT -5
Logic would say it is non-issue for the Habs. Ottawa and Vancouver should be careful. This is entirely a guess, but I kind of see Tkachuk going to Arizona or Detroit, with the possibility that the Islanders or Flyers move up to grab him. Over the weekend I asked the only NHL scout I know (his grandson plays on my son's mini-mite team) if he would go off script at #3. He said in this draft no way. Svechnikov and Zadina are too good to pass up. Interestingly he commented that he likes Kotkaniemi more than Tkachuk and Wahlstrom and anticipates that 4-7 will be a run on high quality d-men in this draft. Time will say. For me when there is an almost widely accepted demarcation of talent tiers in top ten of the draft then it makes little sense to pick based on current roster need. Moreover, Montreal does not score goals at a rate that even resembles a mediocre NHL team so passing up an elite 19-20 sniper is borderline crazy. Logic says we shouldn't but I see him taking Tkachuk because he is a Bergevin kind of player. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on May 9, 2018 11:10:07 GMT -5
Berg needs to play it safe with this pick. I've seen Tkachuk at BU and it's not like he blew the doors off. Solid year but not special, 8 goals and 31 points in 40 games (0.78 PPG). Same at the USHL. Basically a point-per-game guy at that level, whereas Auston Matthews was a 2 points per game guy in the USHL. That's a huge gap. Wahlstrom has better numbers than Tkachuk did in the USHL, maybe that's why he's rising up the draft, but that just isn't enough of a body of work for me. The USHL isn't close to Canadian junior in level of competition. You want to see more from him.
Scouts tend to overweight the physical attributes and underweight actual production. Zadina had 44 goals and 82 points in 57 games (1.44 PPG), and while it's not a fair comparison, I think Berg is taking much more career risk if he passes over the consensus pick in favor of Tkachuk. He won't necessarily be blamed if Zadina is a bust but he will be crucified if he passes on Zadina in favor another guy and it doesn't work out.
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Post by seventeen on May 9, 2018 12:35:50 GMT -5
On principal, I don't mind a GM taking a risk if there is enough upside (and your scouting staff is really good and likes the prospect). It can definitely backfire, with Andrei Kostitsyn being a prime example. He was projected a top 5 pick except for the epilepsy issue, which was relatively easy to fix. Unfortunately, the potential never panned out as expected and while he wasn't a bad choice, he wasn't a Jeff Carter, Seabrook, Parise, Perry or Getzlaff who were all available. Fortunately, he also wasn't a Hugh Jessiman who was taken 2 picks after him. Just as an aside, Boston picked Patrice Bergeron in the 2nd round that year and while one could be highly congratulatory of the Bruins for getting him that late, they can also be highly criticized for taking Mark Stuart in the first round that year. It just confirms there's a lot of luck involved in the draft.
The Habs picks in 2007 are also interesting. It was a home run year for Timmins, obviously, with McDonagh at 12, Pacioretty at 25 and Subban at 43. Re-doing that draft from the Habs perspective alone, Subban should have been picked first, followed not too much later by either of McDonagh or Patches. Karl Alzner went 5th that year (LOL). That year, the Habs took a gamble on PK and it worked out. Even then, I believe he had a reputation for attitude issues. Funny how those get started and never leave a guy, no matter how often he wins. Attitude issues to me, are opportunities. You have to do your due diligence, but you can pick up a much better player because of fear.
That was also the case those years when Russian kids were avoided because of the fear they'd simply sign in the KHL. Washington was able to draft Kuznetsov and Tampa got Kucherov because of those fears. Good lessons. I can equate it to stocks. You could buy $1000 of a stock and it could go to zero and you lose your $1,000. Or it could go to $10,000 and you've gained not just $1,000 but much more. The wins can make up for more than a few losses. How much is Kuznetsov or Kucherov worth?
Relating it to this year's draft, I doubt Bergevin is going to do anything other than take Zadina or Svechnikov. There's too much of a drop to the next level and I totally agree with you re Tkachuk. If Brady's name wasn't Tkachuk, this wouldn't even be a discussion. BH, you brought up the relative scoring for prospects from different years in similar leagues as a comparison and that's a good way to compare. Sometimes the hype really gets carried away with some guys, and I think Tkachuk is it this year.
The Hockey News in their Future Watch issue, really blew it in my opinion. They had Casey Mittelstadt at #1 and Elias Pettersson at #2. Mittelstadt has really been hyped after a good WJC. He had 30 points (11-19-30) in 34 games for the University of Minnesota, while Pettersson had 24-36-52 in 44 regular season games and then 10-9-19 in 13 games in the SEL playoffs, leading his team to a Cup win in his rookie year. To me there's no comparison. The SEL is a man's league, as good as the AHL at least, and this kid demolished it. I don't know how you pick Mittelstadt as a better prospect, but I guess we shall see.
I'm really curious as to what Berg can get for Pacioretty. I'm hoping a first round pick, plus. Now that teams know where they're picking, those top picks will be more expensive but those middle and late picks should be cheaper.
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Post by blny on May 9, 2018 12:54:05 GMT -5
Berg needs to play it safe with this pick. I've seen Tkachuk at BU and it's not like he blew the doors off. Solid year but not special, 8 goals and 31 points in 40 games (0.78 PPG). Same at the USHL. Basically a point-per-game guy at that level, whereas Auston Matthews was a 2 points per game guy in the USHL. That's a huge gap. Wahlstrom has better numbers than Tkachuk did in the USHL, maybe that's why he's rising up the draft, but that just isn't enough of a body of work for me. The USHL isn't close to Canadian junior in level of competition. You want to see more from him. Scouts tend to overweight the physical attributes and underweight actual production. Zadina had 44 goals and 82 points in 57 games (1.44 PPG), and while it's not a fair comparison, I think Berg is taking much more career risk if he passes over the consensus pick in favor of Tkachuk. He won't necessarily be blamed if Zadina is a bust but he will be crucified if he passes on Zadina in favor another guy and it doesn't work out. I think we drafted our Tkachuk last year in Poehling. Goals, goals, goals. |
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Post by BadCompany on May 22, 2018 11:57:32 GMT -5
At every draft there seems to be a ton of speculation on some high end picks being traded down or up. Invariably, and probably due to the fact NHL GM's are so much more conservative than those in other sports, nothing happens and the teams just exercise their picks. I expect that this year as well. We'll get Zadina. The NBA is so much more fun than the NHL in so many ways. Great players get traded, #! overall picks get traded, despite the fact in Basketball, more than any other sport, a great player makes more difference and has much greater value. Weird huh?, but so much fun. One way to fix that would be move the draft to after the first couple of weeks of free agency. That way teams that miss out on landing say, oh I don't know, the top rated center available in the summer, would be more inclined to deal a top pick to fill that need. Perhaps to whichever team did indeed sign said center (*cough Las Vegas cough*). No Tavares? I wonder what we can get for this 3rd overall pick? * Start season on Labour Day weekend. Close the cottage, open the arena. * Finish season by first week of May. No "should I do yard work or watch this Saturday afternoon playoff game?" The wives will be happy. * Start free agency June 1st. All the big names should be gone within two weeks. * Hold draft as per usual, June 23rd-24th, watch GMs scramble to fix holes they couldn't fix two weeks earlier. * July 1st, everybody goes to the cottage. * August 1st, training camps open. Et voila. |
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Post by Cranky on May 22, 2018 13:27:02 GMT -5
Berg needs to play it safe with this pick. I've seen Tkachuk at BU and it's not like he blew the doors off. Solid year but not special, 8 goals and 31 points in 40 games (0.78 PPG). Same at the USHL. Basically a point-per-game guy at that level, whereas Auston Matthews was a 2 points per game guy in the USHL. That's a huge gap. Wahlstrom has better numbers than Tkachuk did in the USHL, maybe that's why he's rising up the draft, but that just isn't enough of a body of work for me. The USHL isn't close to Canadian junior in level of competition. You want to see more from him. Scouts tend to overweight the physical attributes and underweight actual production. Zadina had 44 goals and 82 points in 57 games (1.44 PPG), and while it's not a fair comparison, I think Berg is taking much more career risk if he passes over the consensus pick in favor of Tkachuk. He won't necessarily be blamed if Zadina is a bust but he will be crucified if he passes on Zadina in favor another guy and it doesn't work out. You got to be careful with arrogant GM's. He may think he will SAVE his career if he chooses off the board. It's not like he has much to lose now because I doubt and he probably knows that this is his last chance at GM. What I can see happening, or at least if I was GM and made it happen, is if there is a remote chance Valeno and Kotkaniemi, are somehow available to the Isles and they draft both and trade us for Zadina. You now have a very high chance at 1c and at minimum, a guaranteed 2c. That's a Pollock move that also needs a bit of luck. Hopefully, BergyBust does not solidify his Houle credentials and pick Tkachuk because we really don't need another McDonough and Subban disaster. Tkachuk size and daddys reputation precede him.....which is all risk. In fact, given the disasters of drafting/acquiring Komi, Latendresse, McCarron, Tinordi and a mountain of oversize duds, I would put size into "anything past 6 feet" and leave it there. Besides, Zadina is not a 160 pound "he will fill out" underweight. He is the same weight and a few inches shorter then Tkachuk. Sure he has a fierce reputation, but then, I remember super fierce reputations going nowhere. See Dylan "the Undertaker" McIlrath. He was a HUGE Habs fan and when the Ranger drafted him, I was disappointed. Super sized and triple dose of nasty and now, he looks like a career AHLer. Zadina. Go the safe route. Or if we get lucky, Svechnikov. |
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Post by Cranky on May 22, 2018 13:35:29 GMT -5
One way to fix that would be move the draft to after the first couple of weeks of free agency. Wha? Look at what the kitten dragged in! Welcome back Kotter! I like that idea. All of a sudden those who signed big names feel like their time is NOW and they are more likely to trade their picks for instant relief. And of course the losers would no longer see signings as a solution and they too would be more likely to trade draft picks. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on May 25, 2018 8:48:06 GMT -5
Russell: Zadina's passion for the game drives him to be greatHalifax Moosehead GM Cam Russell reminisces about his time with the Gatineau Olympique but JR and Simmer focus on top prospect Filip Zadina and how he could impact a team next season.* * TSN 1200
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Post by Dschens on May 28, 2018 18:14:48 GMT -5
Some information about Jesperi Kotkaniemi from hockeyprospect.com: linkJesperi Kotkaniemi had an impressive year while playing for Assat by putting up 29 points in 57 games, he followed that up with 1 assist in 7 playoff games. Internationally, he had an underwhelming Hlinka Memorial but picked up the pace considerably at the Five-Nations and saved his best effort for Finland at the U18’s where he was one of the more impressive players at the event, helping his team win gold.
Kotkaniemi is a big two-way center who has a high-level of intelligence and competitiveness that compliments a versatile game. There’s not one specific attribute that stands-out above the rest for Jesperi, however he does have several good to great attributes that allowed him to become one of the most promising centers in this year’s draft. Two of the most important factors when we assess a prospect is intelligence followed by skill, and that’s what he brings to the table. He’s a smart player who’s capable of breaking down the opposition using patience, poise, and awareness of what his teammates are attempting to do, this allowed him to adapt to Finland’s top pro league this past season as well as drive one of the most successful lines at the U18’s. He’s capable of accommodating and adjusting to conditions on the ice, for instance when playing along the half-wall on the powerplay, he can identify the defense and adjust quickly, creating opportunities for himself and his teammates. Furthermore, he’s a creative player who can set up unorthodox plays due to his soft-hands and excellent vision, for instance we have seen him bank a puck between a player’s legs off the back of the net before using his length to re-collect the puck, effectively turning his opponent inside-out. He’s also capable of threading accurate and crisp passes through heavy traffic but isn’t a player who forces plays, this allows him to drive possession for his team without turning the puck over too often. It’s challenging for defensive units to identify what he’s attempting to do with the puck on his stick and this makes him difficult for goalies to read as well. Additionally, Kotkaniemi has a high-end release point. He has reach and generates a lot of velocity. Factor that with his ability to change the angle of his shot by dragging the puck in-tight to his body both at a stand-still position and while driving down a lane and it makes for a difficult shot for goalies to handle.
Although he has a fluid stride and likes to use his edges to manipulate his frame so that he can evade incoming checks and weave through heavy traffic, his acceleration is average and his base isn’t fully developed yet, which puts him off balance when he attempts some of his more technical dekes. When he isn’t offensively engaged or executing at the rate he’s capable of given his skill-set, he still finds ways to be effective for his team. He’s shown a high-level of compete without the puck and is willing to expend his motor in order to track-down the opposition during backchecking sequences, he’s also willing to forecheck aggressively and finishes his checks along the boards.
Kotkaniemi demonstrated a mature, all-around game that gives him a high-floor with a lot of upside, his versatility allows him to move up and down a line-up and we see him as potentially developing into a solid two-way center at the NHL level." |
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Post by seventeen on May 28, 2018 23:09:39 GMT -5
Kotkaniemi demonstrated a mature, all-around game that gives him a high-floor with a lot of upside, his versatility allows him to move up and down a line-up and we see him as potentially developing into a solid two-way center at the NHL level." I wonder if Patrice Bergeron's scouting report read something like that back in 2003? As I said in an earlier post...I'm torn. I like what I saw of Kotkaniemi, but Zadina's (or Svechnikov's) scoring ability is elite and it's really hard to pass up on a guy who can do one thing like that extremely well. The challenge, IMO, is seeing if we can somehow acquire a pick in the 6-8 range where Kotkaniemi might still be available, and if he isn't, someone else who is pretty good at the game (Hughes for example or Boqvist). |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jun 1, 2018 7:19:40 GMT -5
The knock on Brady Tkachuk is his lack of foot speed ... more specifically, he's fine once he's in stride, but it's his first-step that's the issue ... that said, if what Marc Bergevin said to Mike Zeisberger is true, then the Habs will draft for speed and there are a lot of faster players than Tkachuk... fast forward to the 6:00 mark ... Cheers. |
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Jun 1, 2018 15:14:31 GMT -5
If Zadina turns out to be Phil Kessel or Kotkaniemi turns out to be Mark Schiffle then the Habs will not have done too bad with either pick.
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Post by seventeen on Jun 1, 2018 15:57:32 GMT -5
Zadina’s more like a Phil Kessel who backchecks and isn’t annoying to his coaches. Keep in mind I really like Kessel. Especially his Laissez-faire attitude and hot dog culinary style.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jun 1, 2018 21:47:49 GMT -5
Translated from French by Microsoft
"They are both very good players and it would be a lot of fun... to evolve alongside them."
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Post by folatre on Jun 1, 2018 22:39:05 GMT -5
Nice Dis, it would amazing to have Svechnikov in the organisation for the next ten years.
I know logic says Carolina is elated to be in the position to pick him. Well, thinking back to the comments by Zadina a couple of weeks ago, it is cool how genuinely excited both of these snipers seem about being selected by Montreal.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jun 2, 2018 15:37:08 GMT -5
Nice Dis, it would amazing to have Svechnikov in the organisation for the next ten years. I know logic says Carolina is elated to be in the position to pick him. Well, thinking back to the comments by Zadina a couple of weeks ago, it is cool how genuinely excited both of these snipers seem about being selected by Montreal. A number of them have been saying good things about Montreal including Dobson, Kotkaniemi, and Fortier. Jet Woo said he wants to be like Shea Weber and Dobson also said that young defensemen all look up to Shea Weber. These kids are well prepared though, they are much better at dealing with the media and know to say good things about teams to their local media. Carolina picking Zadina (the overblown Necas connection) and leaving us Svechnikov would be rather amazing. Highly unlikely, but amazing. |
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jun 2, 2018 18:41:01 GMT -5
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jun 2, 2018 20:49:49 GMT -5
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