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Post by CentreHice on Jan 2, 2020 15:19:32 GMT -5
It's the constant shifting of expectations. After bottoming out in 2017-18, Bergevin changed course with the Pacioretty and Galchenyuk trades. Those actually worked out well and the team rebounded with a 96 point season and barely missed the playoffs. But Berg/Molson were careful not to say explicitly what the goal was for 2019-20. At least I never heard it other than "we always want to make the playoffs" mantra. So far, this year has been a step back. After 40 games last year the Habs were 21-14-5, good for 47 points. This year we are 18-16-6 and 42 points. Well off the pace of the leaders, well off the pace of our record last year, but still within striking distance of the playoffs. It's the Bergie shuffle. Keep changing the goal posts. He can say "we're in the hunt for the playoffs" even though the team has regressed in terms of its record. Or he can point to the development of a guy like Suzuki and say "the youth movement is on track" and we're building for the long-term. Oh, and have you compared Shea Weber's stats with PK's this year? See, I'm not so dumb after all. Bergie is a snake who will keep changing the subject, keep changing the bar as long as he gets to keep his job. AFAIC, Berg's final goalposts were set during the off-season. Molson is on record last August as saying he expects this group's window will open in 2021-22 and continue for 5 seasons. Bergevin, at his post-season presser, said, “I want to make it clear that with every single player I met today that there’s disappointment to miss the playoffs, even though we had 96 points — which is 25 more than last year. The future is bright. There’s a lot of young players knocking at the door. We have one of the youngest teams in the NHL, so we’re heading in the right direction.”
“We did miss the playoffs and, again, I just want to be clear because people might walk out of here: ‘Well, you know they have 96 points, they had a good year, they’re happy.’ No, we’re not happy. But we know we’re heading in the right direction. And the message I got from my players today is we’re just getting started.”I think injuries have definitely hindered progress in terms of standings finish. But if we are indeed "just getting started" toward contention in the next 2 or 3 years, we'd better see the kids continue to develop to their potentials.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jan 2, 2020 17:14:14 GMT -5
Injuries will make this season for sure. Too many top nine guys lost for too many games. Defensive coverage and goaltending has been horribly inconsistent so far as well, but some of the defensive breakdowns stem from having replacements in the key forward positions too. Being a bubble team with little to no room for error is hard without the horses.
I like how some of the kids are developing, but as everyone knows, it takes time and they don't all develop at the same pace or along the same timeline.
My big concern about a future Berg/Molson "window" is that we will also likely need a #1 goalie and #1 defenseman by then as neither of the incumbents are getting any younger, and I am not sure our goalie is drinking enough from the fountain of youth as much as his captain is.
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Post by jkr on Jan 2, 2020 17:46:45 GMT -5
What was Therrien's motto? - No excuses. Its been nothing but excuses for Bergevin and sadly, Molson buys them every time.
There have been better players on other teams (Crosby, Marner at or example) injured without teams complaining about them. Bergevin will use the injury excuse again. It's self preservation.
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Post by stoat on Jan 2, 2020 18:10:12 GMT -5
This is not the year/ We'll see great results in 2 years as the recent draft picks make their mark.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 7, 2020 6:14:31 GMT -5
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Jan 7, 2020 8:57:06 GMT -5
Brendan Kelly is very much anti-Bergevin and his only job is to write negative articles on the Habs. Scandella is a definite improvement over Reilly, Folin, or anyone currently in Laval that they can bring up and MB got him for virtually nothing. If anything Scandella is reliable enough to take some of the minutes off Weber, Petry and Chariot and insurance should one of those guys get hurt. It is also a good addition to evaluate him for next year instead of chasing another free agent in the summer. So for me that move was all about getting an asset you may need without giving up a player so there is no down side to it. Mete and Flury still have spots on the roster so not taking it away from a kid.
Kovalchuk again is an experiment that costs nothing but cap space. I don't think he will be a saviour or really alters the playoff picture but hey they need scoring with all the injuries and he would be at least as effective as Hudon if called up. Plus he a player with tons of experience so a better option than putting KK or Suzuki on that line and expecting them to produce as much.
I have kind of given up on this season with the injuries, shoddy defense and Price being inconsistent for most of the year. I don't think MB or Molson expected much from this season to be honest. I think they hoped if everything went perfect they could be a playoff team but things have gone much less than perfect.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 7, 2020 10:24:58 GMT -5
Brendan Kelly is very much anti-Bergevin and his only job is to write negative articles on the Habs. Scandella is a definite improvement over Reilly, Folin, or anyone currently in Laval that they can bring up and MB got him for virtually nothing. If anything Scandella is reliable enough to take some of the minutes off Weber, Petry and Chariot and insurance should one of those guys get hurt. It is also a good addition to evaluate him for next year instead of chasing another free agent in the summer. So for me that move was all about getting an asset you may need without giving up a player so there is no down side to it. Mete and Flury still have spots on the roster so not taking it away from a kid. Kovalchuk again is an experiment that costs nothing but cap space. I don't think he will be a saviour or really alters the playoff picture but hey they need scoring with all the injuries and he would be at least as effective as Hudon if called up. Plus he a player with tons of experience so a better option than putting KK or Suzuki on that line and expecting them to produce as much. I have kind of given up on this season with the injuries, shoddy defense and Price being inconsistent for most of the year. I don't think MB or Molson expected much from this season to be honest. I think they hoped if everything went perfect they could be a playoff team but things have gone much less than perfect. Last year went perfect from a production point of view, many players had career years, yet we still didn't make the playoffs, I don't see how they could think by doing the same thing, the result would be better? The main issue is a lack of transparency, just be honest, don't give this stupid 'anything can happen' nonsense... Are we playing the lottery here? I'm ok with getting Scandella and Kovalchuk, they are better than what was there imo, but it was somewhat of a PR move as well that cost them nothing. The real interesting thing is who sits when Byron, bGal, Armia and Drouin are back, especially since all of them are wingers, does this spell doom for the wonder twins? How about Lekhy? We know Weise will be back in Laval... What about Payday? We will have a some competition for spots on the wings for the middle 2 lines since CJ is enamoured with Tatar-Dano-bGal and that will never change.
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Post by franko on Jan 7, 2020 10:51:20 GMT -5
I have kind of given up on this season with the injuries, shoddy defense and Price being inconsistent for most of the year. Marinaro had better be careful or he's going to have a heart attack on air. His conclusion, after "debunking" the injury excuse (went through Pittsburgh, Boston, etc and pointed to their point total without their stars) and concluded that the Habs are just a bad team that has no one who can score. Earth-shattering! This lays at Bergevin's feet. He can say that he tried (Aho) and that he's building through the draft but the team hasn't had a goal scorer for how many years, and if Kovulchuk is is answer we're in more trouble than I thought that we were.
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Post by mikeg on Jan 7, 2020 12:59:56 GMT -5
We will have a some competition for spots on the wings for the middle 2 lines since CJ is enamoured with Tatar-Dano-bGal and that will never change. I agree with everything except that last line.... the tat/dan/bgal line is one of the better lines in the league. They are consistent, productive, and reliable. In a perfect world they stay together for as long as we can keep them together because they have chemistry and are consistent. It does not matter if they are a 1st, 2nd, 3rd line, it still leaves 3 other lines that need to be filled and that is where I don't trust Clode.
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Jan 7, 2020 13:13:25 GMT -5
To me Montreal is an good/average team with potential to improve. Teams like Pittsburgh, Boston are very good teams with superstars in the lineup so when their top players are out they become good/average. When Montreal players go out they will go from average/poor so it really isn't a fair comparison. People ignore that Boston and Pittsburgh has some average years after winning their cups while they rebuilt/retooled. To expect Montreal's current roster of a few very good veterans surrounded by some average NHL pros and a bunch of kids to be equal to Boston, Pittsburgh, Washington and so on is just not realistic.
I know there will be the criticism of MB had 8 years to be average but I think you have to look at his progression in three parts. The inherited core of Price, Subban, Patches, Plekanec who were maybe 1-2 good players and a coach away from being a contender until management they could not win with that group. Part two where moving Subban for Weber but keeping much of the older core together but by then Patches was just not as engaged, Plekanec was too far gone and so on so they it was decided to start over. Part three where we are now with good (not great) vets, a decent number of under 30 year old NHL pros and some very promising prospects who in the next 1-2 years will start pushing out some of those older players.
Should MB be the guy to look after that future, that is debatable, but I look at his tenure as good/average with potential to improve.
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Post by seventeen on Jan 7, 2020 13:19:11 GMT -5
I have kind of given up on this season with the injuries, shoddy defense and Price being inconsistent for most of the year. I don't think MB or Molson expected much from this season to be honest. I think they hoped if everything went perfect they could be a playoff team but things have gone much less than perfect. This is what has always gotten me. Did they really not expect much from this season? I don't think they made nearly enough improvements, but you'd never know it to hear them talk about the team. There's always a "if only" in their conversations. "If only Carey hadn't gotten hurt". "If only we didn't have these injuries". "If only Radulov wasn't greedy". Bottom line is that these two have been in charge for 7.5 years. After using up a decent core left behind by some 'inept' others, they have missed the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years, soon to be 4 of the last 5. The guy, IMO, who made a huge difference the year they made the playoffs, Radulov, was allowed to walk and thats exactly what happened. They had the CAP s;ace and they chose not to overpay him. So, it's not as if 3 of the last 4 were bad luck, or accidental. The team simply wasn't good enough, and doesn't seem to be immproved this year, despite the many moves Bergevin has made. Many. No one makes more moves than he does and so far his record is good. Yet....there they are. Bottom line. Brian Wilde had a good Call of the Wilde podcast yesterday, and his conclusion (2 yaers too late) is that you don't build your team from the goalie out. You only need a goalie to get hot at the right time to win the Cup. He pointed out that Michael Leighton beat the Habs in the playoffs....a guy who wasn't even in the league the following year, You need to build at centre and on defense. He's right. It took Berg ablut 5 years to recognize that centre was important as he kept going with Pleks and DD as his top centres. Now he's taken forever to understand that quick, mobile defensemen are valuable. I don't want a guy who is constantly late to the party. And I don't want a guy who just makes a lot of deals, in order to look busy. Give me quality over quantity every day. I haven't read Kelly's article because a) I agree with you that he dislikes Bergevin (which isn't necessary wrong but it may distort any article he writes) b) I've been saying for ages that Bergevin constantly distracts us with meaningless moves so no need to convince me. I have said this already about the latest. Scandella is an ok acquisition but he's already on the 2nd pair. Kovalchuk is definitely a disraction. The initial immpressions are gnerally good, but people are ignoring the fact he likely was pumped galore last night and as he adrenaline and the excitement wear off, he's probably going to be a guy the 4th worst team in the league didn't want. Without a miracle, the team will miss the playoffs for the 4th time in 5 years. That's Berg's record.
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Post by seventeen on Jan 7, 2020 13:23:13 GMT -5
This lays at Bergevin's feet. He can say that he tried (Aho) That was the ultimate PR exmple. A no doubter match from Carolina. It was stupid to even consider making that offer. At least to to the next level. Aho has 37 points in 42 games after a slow start. And 23 goals.
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Post by franko on Jan 7, 2020 13:42:11 GMT -5
To me Montreal is an good/average team with potential to improve. Teams like Pittsburgh, Boston are very good teams with superstars in the lineup so when their top players are out they become good/average. When Montreal players go out they will go from average/poor so it really isn't a fair comparison. I believe that the point Marinaro was making is that "Montreal is an good/average team" and that management hasn't made anything but lateral improvements these last 8 years . . . that we are in a rut of mediocrity . . . that he is tired of it (aren't we all). nope, I expect Montreal's current roster to be about what they are. hence the disappointment in lack of improvement. sorry, I don't see improvements, I see the same team with different faces.kids come, kids go; vets come, vets go; kids become vets, and "maybe this year" is foisted on us, but even we know it's not realistic. I see his tenure as fair-to-middling with no potential to improve . . . but he knows what words to use and what buttons to push to give a little bit of hope.
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Post by folatre on Jan 7, 2020 13:59:44 GMT -5
I agree with quite a few points of Habitual's points. Boston and Pittsburgh have winning identities and when high end guys get injured good players step up with that matar o morir playoff mentality.
Bergevin's bottom line record is not bad but it is the definition of average (4 playoff appearances in 8 seasons, only three playoff rounds during his tenure). But the problem with being really poor for an extended period of time (this will be the third bottom 10 finish in the last five years) is that people stop believing in the leadership (season ticket holders, fans at large, vets on the Habs like Price, agents and players on other teams).
I was talking to a friend yesterday who said listen Max we finally have some good kids and firing Bergevin could mess it all up. With all due respect, I do not quite follow that thinking. Sometimes it is necessary to make changes at the executive level even if the strategic vision (drafting and development) as defined by the President remains the same. Sometimes it is necessary to decompress a negative environment and make stakeholders believe again.
Did Philadelphia and Carolina give away their talented kids, trade picks, and screw up the future when they fired Hextall and Ron Francis in the summer of 2018?
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Post by UberCranky on Jan 7, 2020 14:21:09 GMT -5
Briuns went from cup champions to out of the playoffs to rebuilding to contenders in almost the same span as Bbinz tenure and full span of Mol$on$ ownership.
We were and still are a mediocre team that was never a contender and certainly no cups. If anything, Bbinz inherited a team that is continiously declining in terms of playoff appearances and contention. That's a FACT.
So tell me again about this management? Tell me again about what they achieved?
Or getting close to the worse teams and worse records in over a century an accomplishment?
What i and anyone who cares to to see, can clearly see, is that their ability to sell hope and make money far, far outstrips their hockey success.
Healthy profits and massive value increases are the only thing this team has "achieved" under this managent. Period.
Apllause for that and lots and lots of worthless "hope" and "bright future" sales.
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Post by UberCranky on Jan 7, 2020 14:28:02 GMT -5
Did Philadelphia and Carolina give away their talented kids, trade picks, and screw up the future when they fired Hextall and Ron Francis in the summer of 2018? More galling is the Bruins went from cup winners to out of the playoffs to finalist and back to contenders in the same time period as this management endless mediocrity or uber failure.. But....certainly the Bruins don't make the profits and value the Habs have. Priorities....
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Post by UberCranky on Jan 7, 2020 14:40:19 GMT -5
I have kind of given up on this season with the injuries, shoddy defense and Price being inconsistent for most of the year. I don't think MB or Molson expected much from this season to be honest. I think they hoped if everything went perfect they could be a playoff team but things have gone much less than perfect. This is what has always gotten me. Did they really not expect much from this season? I don't think they made nearly enough improvements, but you'd never know it to hear them talk about the team. There's always a "if only" in their conversations. "If only Carey hadn't gotten hurt". "If only we didn't have these injuries". "If only Radulov wasn't greedy". Bottom line is that these two have been in charge for 7.5 years. After using up a decent core left behind by some 'inept' others, they have missed the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years, soon to be 4 of the last 5. The guy, IMO, who made a huge difference the year they made the playoffs, Radulov, was allowed to walk and thats exactly what happened. They had the CAP s;ace and they chose not to overpay him. So, it's not as if 3 of the last 4 were bad luck, or accidental. The team simply wasn't good enough, and doesn't seem to be immproved this year, despite the many moves Bergevin has made. Many. No one makes more moves than he does and so far his record is good. Yet....there they are. Bottom line. Brian Wilde had a good Call of the Wilde podcast yesterday, and his conclusion (2 yaers too late) is that you don't build your team from the goalie out. You only need a goalie to get hot at the right time to win the Cup. He pointed out that Michael Leighton beat the Habs in the playoffs....a guy who wasn't even in the league the following year, You need to build at centre and on defense. He's right. It took Berg ablut 5 years to recognize that centre was important as he kept going with Pleks and DD as his top centres. Now he's taken forever to understand that quick, mobile defensemen are valuable. I don't want a guy who is constantly late to the party. And I don't want a guy who just makes a lot of deals, in order to look busy. Give me quality over quantity every day. I haven't read Kelly's article because a) I agree with you that he dislikes Bergevin (which isn't necessary wrong but it may distort any article he writes) b) I've been saying for ages that Bergevin constantly distracts us with meaningless moves so no need to convince me. I have said this already about the latest. Scandella is an ok acquisition but he's already on the 2nd pair. Kovalchuk is definitely a disraction. The initial immpressions are gnerally good, but people are ignoring the fact he likely was pumped galore last night and as he adrenaline and the excitement wear off, he's probably going to be a guy the 4th worst team in the league didn't want. Without a miracle, the team will miss the playoffs for the 4th time in 5 years. That's Berg's record. You're getting soft. Let me know how excited you're going to be to see the Laffs and Booins in the playoffs. You could of course enjoy cheering their golfing.....
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Post by seventeen on Jan 7, 2020 15:13:35 GMT -5
This is what has always gotten me. Did they really not expect much from this season? I don't think they made nearly enough improvements, but you'd never know it to hear them talk about the team. There's always a "if only" in their conversations. "If only Carey hadn't gotten hurt". "If only we didn't have these injuries". "If only Radulov wasn't greedy". Bottom line is that these two have been in charge for 7.5 years. After using up a decent core left behind by some 'inept' others, they have missed the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years, soon to be 4 of the last 5. The guy, IMO, who made a huge difference the year they made the playoffs, Radulov, was allowed to walk and thats exactly what happened. They had the CAP s;ace and they chose not to overpay him. So, it's not as if 3 of the last 4 were bad luck, or accidental. The team simply wasn't good enough, and doesn't seem to be immproved this year, despite the many moves Bergevin has made. Many. No one makes more moves than he does and so far his record is good. Yet....there they are. Bottom line. Brian Wilde had a good Call of the Wilde podcast yesterday, and his conclusion (2 yaers too late) is that you don't build your team from the goalie out. You only need a goalie to get hot at the right time to win the Cup. He pointed out that Michael Leighton beat the Habs in the playoffs....a guy who wasn't even in the league the following year, You need to build at centre and on defense. He's right. It took Berg ablut 5 years to recognize that centre was important as he kept going with Pleks and DD as his top centres. Now he's taken forever to understand that quick, mobile defensemen are valuable. I don't want a guy who is constantly late to the party. And I don't want a guy who just makes a lot of deals, in order to look busy. Give me quality over quantity every day. I haven't read Kelly's article because a) I agree with you that he dislikes Bergevin (which isn't necessary wrong but it may distort any article he writes) b) I've been saying for ages that Bergevin constantly distracts us with meaningless moves so no need to convince me. I have said this already about the latest. Scandella is an ok acquisition but he's already on the 2nd pair. Kovalchuk is definitely a disraction. The initial immpressions are gnerally good, but people are ignoring the fact he likely was pumped galore last night and as he adrenaline and the excitement wear off, he's probably going to be a guy the 4th worst team in the league didn't want. Without a miracle, the team will miss the playoffs for the 4th time in 5 years. That's Berg's record. You're getting soft. Let me know how excited you're going to be to see the Laffs and Booins in the playoffs. You could of course enjoy cheering their golfing..... You're not trying hard enough. Wait until the Senators are contenders and we're still treading water.
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Post by UberCranky on Jan 7, 2020 17:33:09 GMT -5
You're getting soft. Let me know how excited you're going to be to see the Laffs and Booins in the playoffs. You could of course enjoy cheering their golfing..... You're not trying hard enough. Wait until the Senators are contenders and we're still treading water. I looked at their direction and given their owner, it's more likely the talent will rise..........and sold as cattle.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 7, 2020 17:49:19 GMT -5
You're getting soft. Let me know how excited you're going to be to see the Laffs and Booins in the playoffs. You could of course enjoy cheering their golfing..... You're not trying hard enough. Wait until the Senators are contenders and we're still treading water. I am not looking forward to that day...
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jan 7, 2020 18:50:26 GMT -5
You're not trying hard enough. Wait until the Senators are contenders and we're still treading water. I am not looking forward to that day... I keep hearing that our young guys are going to turn things around. Laval isn’t even a mediocre team. Hasn’t made the playoffs in years. We have some decent kids but look at all the #1 picks that have departed. Our kids are average at best and there is no pure scoring. We thought KK was a great pick but at #3 Tkaczuk looks a lot better. This years flavor is Suzuki, next years sophomore slump. Caufield fell into our hands but he scores against weak players, not at the World juniors where his size is a liability
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jan 7, 2020 19:18:47 GMT -5
You're not trying hard enough. Wait until the Senators are contenders and we're still treading water. I am not looking forward to that day... They will get two studs too in the draft in June. Detroit will do well too. Those teams will be nipping at our heels soon enough.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 7, 2020 19:47:57 GMT -5
I am not looking forward to that day... I keep hearing that our young guys are going to turn things around. Laval isn’t even a mediocre team. Hasn’t made the playoffs in years. We have some decent kids but look at all the #1 picks that have departed. Our kids are average at best and there is no pure scoring. We thought KK was a great pick but at #3 Tkaczuk looks a lot better. This years flavor is Suzuki, next years sophomore slump. Caufield fell into our hands but he scores against weak players, not at the World juniors where his size is a liability I wouldn't worry about Caufield... he's got the smarts to score 30 to 35 a year... the US coach was brutal and did a terrible job utilizing his players to their strengths.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jan 7, 2020 20:20:02 GMT -5
I keep hearing that our young guys are going to turn things around. Laval isn’t even a mediocre team. Hasn’t made the playoffs in years. We have some decent kids but look at all the #1 picks that have departed. Our kids are average at best and there is no pure scoring. We thought KK was a great pick but at #3 Tkaczuk looks a lot better. This years flavor is Suzuki, next years sophomore slump. Caufield fell into our hands but he scores against weak players, not at the World juniors where his size is a liability I wouldn't worry about Caufield... he's got the smarts to score 30 to 35 a year... the US coach was brutal and did a terrible job utilizing his players to their strengths.
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 7, 2020 22:25:28 GMT -5
After the 3rd loss to the Wings, I think Berg has to go because it's asset-management time in order to build the young core properly...and he shouldn't be anywhere near it. I don't expect it, though, as prudence seems to have abandoned this franchise....and Pierre McGuire is otherwise employed anyway....
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 7, 2020 22:30:50 GMT -5
I posted this I the red wings thread but it belongs here
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 7, 2020 22:42:36 GMT -5
Would Pierre McGuire have been this bad? He wouldn't have hired MTHead, or the cronies like Lefebvre et al.
I can guarantee the kids would have gotten a fair deal under him.
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Post by Bobs_HABit on Jan 7, 2020 23:25:00 GMT -5
This is more than comical. C'mon Marky-marc, let's deal for another 4-liner we can add to the PP.
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Post by habsorbed on Jan 8, 2020 1:23:08 GMT -5
And while no one is looking MB trades McCarron for Laurent Dauphin. That's one of MB's first round picks for a 24 year old who has played all of 35 NHL games and has 4 points and is a -4. That's quite a career. O' but he's from Quebec.
Not saying McCarron is any better, but MB can't run from his past. He drafted McC and we wonder why the team has not improved under MB's tenure, and in fact is worse.
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Post by franko on Jan 8, 2020 6:52:08 GMT -5
After the 3rd loss to the Wings, I think Berg has to go because it's asset-management time in order to build the young core properly...and he shouldn't be anywhere near it. I don't expect it, though, as prudence seems to have abandoned this franchise....and Pierre McGuire is otherwise employed anyway.... how bad is it when CH of all people is championing and ruing missing out on McGuire?
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