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Post by Skilly on Jan 9, 2020 11:08:41 GMT -5
To me it is all one and the same … You can't draft someone and then absolve yourself from his development. You drafted him because you saw potential and you informed him of what you thought his weaknesses are … The Montreal Canadiens have sucked at drafting and development for a long time now. And even though some feel the other rounds are hit and miss, this team has failed to find a diamond in the rough as well … most other teams have found that nugget at least once in the last 15 years … not this team. No, it wasn't poor development or even poor drafting. When McCarron was drafted at 18 the league was all about big forwards and he was certainly that plus he could score. His skating wasn't great but that was not a big deal, the thing with Montreal is they were too small up front so they filled a need in size. The real problem is by the time McCarron was 21-22 the league was switching to fast and skilled players so he just didn't fit the NHL template anymore. The Habs went to drafting skill and speed but now by the time those guys are ready the league has switched to big, fast and skilled. Again the Canadiens are a step behind while teams like Tampa and Carolina got better. Montreal needs a GM with foresight that can build a team that will dictate the future so other teams will have to adapt to beat them instead of chasing the trend. I am going to quote this post, but respond to your last two posts The issue here is you are looking at the draft in hindsight … sure, not many after him were great. But there were players that were better and would have been more useful. McCarron was a risk from day one. Everyone knew it. At the beginning of that draft year, McCarron was projected to be a third round selection. During the year he rose through ONLY ONE ranking set. In every draft profile on McCarron, they say his skating was a weakness, that he is only rising on some draft reports because of his size, that he is a north-south skater and just goes to the front of the net, when he has the puck, he either shoots or makes the simple pass. NOTHING in his draft profile screamed out that he was going to be anything more than a complementary piece. His NHL comparison was Jimmy Hayes in some reports. At the end of the year McCarron was ranked in the following draft reports … The Hockey Writers (The Next Ones Ranking - January 2013): 43 The Hockey Writers (War Room Rankings - April): 55 ISS (May): 28 Future Considerations: Not ranked NHL Numbers: 73 (a consensus aggregate of many sources) CS Final Rankings for North American skaters: 35 One drafting service had him ranked inside the top 30, and we still selected him above that at 25th … he was a risk, from day 1. And not that it matters, but I don't even think Craig Button ranked him (could be wrong there). In any event, yes, I feel I can call this bad drafting. He is big, he is a forward ... But why are we always the ones to selects USHL players? And did you see his skating shooting and IQ numbers?! That's an awful lot of 2s and 3s So Timmins gets us another third liner?? Ugh .... I hope this guy is the Clarkson type by the time he gets to the NHL then But , can he skate at an NHL level? Montreal went entirely off the board to select McCarron. Not only that, but they tried to trade up, and not select 25th. So he wasn't even their guy at 25, they simply selected him to make a pick. And if everyone thinks that this was Montreal making a concerted effort to get bigger, then why oh why, did they sign Daniel Briere to a 2yr/8 million dollar contract just 4 days later. It was a risky pick, it didn't pan out … so yes, we can blame the drafting.
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Post by Skilly on Jan 9, 2020 11:26:22 GMT -5
Going back over the 2013 draft threads … Grant McCagg actually had us picking McCarron. The reasoning, as told by gnick back in the day, was to be a fighter as Montreal was tired of being pushed around. And he would go to learn this skillset with Hunter in London, as there is no fighting in the NCAAs.
I didn't like the sound of that at all back then … and even less now in hindsight.
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Post by mikeg on Jan 9, 2020 11:43:40 GMT -5
2013 may go down as the draft year that really set the Canadiens back in development. The had picks 25, 34 and 36 and picked McCarron, De La rose and Fucale all of them were never able to contribute to the roster as even depth players. But looking at the players taken around that time Shea Theodore at 26 and Ryan Hartman at 30 they would be the only two players that became solid NHL regulars. We will never know where Timmins had them rated at the time so although it was a poor draft for the team it wasn't like they missed out on a star. Jake Guentzal was taken at 77 and we got Lehkonen at 55. If they had taken Theodore at 25, (Hartman was gone at 30)Lehkonen at 34 and Guentzal at 36 they would have done much better but none of those change the Habs to be a contender. Not to relitigate the 2013 draft, but it was really not that good talent wise after the first 15 picks... De La Rose, Andrighetto are guys with 200+ NHL games which in 2013 after that top 15... is few and far between. Lehkonen was a great pick for where we got him, and really our options at 25th overall were not that great. We needed size and a center, so they took a risk on a player and it failed... it happens, they chose wrong... but imagine if McCarron would have hit on what they thought he could have hit... The funny thing about that draft is that through trades we now have the 3rd overall player taken (Drouin), the 12th overall player taken (Domi), we had the 24th overall player at one point (Shiankaruk) as well, now Dauphin (39th) Someone must have really liked the players from that draft... So in one way you could say we won that draft a few years later LOL
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Post by Skilly on Jan 9, 2020 11:52:48 GMT -5
2013 may go down as the draft year that really set the Canadiens back in development. The had picks 25, 34 and 36 and picked McCarron, De La rose and Fucale all of them were never able to contribute to the roster as even depth players. But looking at the players taken around that time Shea Theodore at 26 and Ryan Hartman at 30 they would be the only two players that became solid NHL regulars. We will never know where Timmins had them rated at the time so although it was a poor draft for the team it wasn't like they missed out on a star. Jake Guentzal was taken at 77 and we got Lehkonen at 55. If they had taken Theodore at 25, (Hartman was gone at 30)Lehkonen at 34 and Guentzal at 36 they would have done much better but none of those change the Habs to be a contender. Not to relitigate the 2013 draft, but it was really not that good talent wise after the first 15 picks... De La Rose, Andrighetto are guys with 200+ NHL games which in 2013 after that top 15... is few and far between. Lehkonen was a great pick for where we got him, and really our options at 25th overall were not that great. We needed size and a center, so they took a risk on a player and it failed... it happens, they chose wrong... but imagine if McCarron would have hit on what they thought he could have hit... The funny thing about that draft is that through trades we now have the 3rd overall player taken (Drouin), the 12th overall player taken (Domi), we had the 24th overall player at one point (Shiankaruk) as well, now Dauphin (39th) Someone must have really liked the players from that draft... So in one way you could say we won that draft a few years later LOL we also needed defense … Shea Theodore was there. So to say that we didn't do anything wrong because the talent after #25 was bad, is not really fair IMO. I don't like that argument anyway, since a player chosen by one team may not pan out, but if another team selected him he could have been developed better or gotten a better chance. For instance, even if we selected Shea Theodore, he could have been a bust as a Hab (ala Tinordi, just to name one of many). The only true metric, to judge a teams success, is who they picked and if it worked out … all the rest depends on too many variables and IMO is akin to excuses
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Post by mikeg on Jan 9, 2020 15:02:14 GMT -5
Not to relitigate the 2013 draft, but it was really not that good talent wise after the first 15 picks... De La Rose, Andrighetto are guys with 200+ NHL games which in 2013 after that top 15... is few and far between. Lehkonen was a great pick for where we got him, and really our options at 25th overall were not that great. We needed size and a center, so they took a risk on a player and it failed... it happens, they chose wrong... but imagine if McCarron would have hit on what they thought he could have hit... The funny thing about that draft is that through trades we now have the 3rd overall player taken (Drouin), the 12th overall player taken (Domi), we had the 24th overall player at one point (Shiankaruk) as well, now Dauphin (39th) Someone must have really liked the players from that draft... So in one way you could say we won that draft a few years later LOL we also needed defense … Apparently no one told the Habs that that year as they did not draft a single defender. Who did we have in waiting in 2013.... not much unless they were banking on that 2011 draft crop. 2012 they drafted one D - Dalton Thrower 2011 they drafted five 5 - Beaulieu is the only one other than Dietz (13 NHL games) who has played in the NHL 2010 - Jared Tinordi and Morgan Ellis 2009 - Mac Bennett 2008 - No D 2007 - McDonnagh, Subban, Weber (Yanik), Stejskal, Torp and Kishel
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Post by seventeen on Jan 9, 2020 15:24:18 GMT -5
I am going to quote this post, but respond to your last two posts The issue here is you are looking at the draft in hindsight … sure, not many after him were great. But there were players that were better and would have been more useful. McCarron was a risk from day one. Everyone knew it. At the beginning of that draft year, McCarron was projected to be a third round selection. During the year he rose through ONLY ONE ranking set. In every draft profile on McCarron, they say his skating was a weakness, that he is only rising on some draft reports because of his size, that he is a north-south skater and just goes to the front of the net, when he has the puck, he either shoots or makes the simple pass. NOTHING in his draft profile screamed out that he was going to be anything more than a complementary piece. His NHL comparison was Jimmy Hayes in some reports. At the end of the year McCarron was ranked in the following draft reports … The Hockey Writers (The Next Ones Ranking - January 2013): 43 The Hockey Writers (War Room Rankings - April): 55 ISS (May): 28 Future Considerations: Not ranked NHL Numbers: 73 (a consensus aggregate of many sources) CS Final Rankings for North American skaters: 35 One drafting service had him ranked inside the top 30, and we still selected him above that at 25th … he was a risk, from day 1. And not that it matters, but I don't even think Craig Button ranked him (could be wrong there). In any event, yes, I feel I can call this bad drafting. He is big, he is a forward ... But why are we always the ones to selects USHL players? And did you see his skating shooting and IQ numbers?! That's an awful lot of 2s and 3s So Timmins gets us another third liner?? Ugh .... I hope this guy is the Clarkson type by the time he gets to the NHL then But , can he skate at an NHL level? Montreal went entirely off the board to select McCarron. Not only that, but they tried to trade up, and not select 25th. So he wasn't even their guy at 25, they simply selected him to make a pick. And if everyone thinks that this was Montreal making a concerted effort to get bigger, then why oh why, did they sign Daniel Briere to a 2yr/8 million dollar contract just 4 days later. It was a risky pick, it didn't pan out … so yes, we can blame the drafting. Bergevin mandated size and Timmins obeyed him. Yes, it was a lousy pick. DLR wasn't much better and Fucale was a very divisive player amongst scouts. He won championships, it seems, but no one liked his actual style and he isn't that big. Timmins would have had to be lucky to do well in that draft anyway, but if he was allowed to pick on skill, then that Lehkonen choice was pretty good. Once you get into the 3rd round, it's more luck than skill. How many late picks did Detroit scoop after those years with Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg? To get an elite player, without factoring in luck, you need to finish top 5 in the draft and you have to hope its a good draft year. Bergevin doesn't want to try that route. Because 'there's no guarantee". Dolt. The only guarantee is that guys like Cousins and Weal and Folin and Kulak are never going to win you a Cup. He certainly doesn't mind going that route.
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Post by Skilly on Jan 9, 2020 18:41:39 GMT -5
Apparently no one told the Habs that that year as they did not draft a single defender. Who did we have in waiting in 2013.... not much unless they were banking on that 2011 draft crop. 2012 they drafted one D - Dalton Thrower 2011 they drafted five 5 - Beaulieu is the only one other than Dietz (13 NHL games) who has played in the NHL 2010 - Jared Tinordi and Morgan Ellis 2009 - Mac Bennett 2008 - No D 2007 - McDonnagh, Subban, Weber (Yanik), Stejskal, Torp and Kishel I'm not necessarily a fan of BCs "you can never have too many defensemen" ideology, but when it cones down between a guy who is listed as having a low hockey IQ, poor skating, and poor shooting vs a safe steady top 4 defenseman ... I'm taking the defenseman. I'll likely complain about it (I won't deny that) since we all wanted an impact player, but if there isn't much talent in the draft, you got to land the top 6 forwards and top 4 d-men when they land in your lap
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Post by folatre on Jan 9, 2020 19:27:32 GMT -5
The President and the GM are simply not very astute when it comes to drafting and even worse when it comes to understanding development.
Last season I said when camp broke that it was not sensible to keep Kotkaniemi in Montreal. Preseason games are not indicative of much of anything because the games are watered down with non-NHLers and NHLers trying not to get injured. For me Bergevin kept the kid centre who had just turned 18 with the Habs for the wrong reasons.
First, Bergevin did not have enough actual NHL players at the position (remember, Domi was a wing in Arizona and got suspended for the entire preseason so it was not obvious what he could do as a pivot; Plekanec was not being given a real opportunity to play one more season in Montreal, it was a cameo to get his 1,000th game; the Habs did not have Nate Thompson until months later; De la Rose had just been lost on waivers to Detroit; there were a couple of scrubs like Chaput and Peca but no one else in Laval to play centre in the NHL). In other words, management was caught with their pants down so when a kid who barely turned 18 played some good hockey in preseason games they figured great there's the centre we need.
Second, I may be wrong but I think Kotkaniemi being with the Habs had more to do with marketing than we would like to believe. Maybe the importance of selling tickets and jerseys after a dreadful 2017-18 season interfered with the more sober perspective that a skinny 18 year old playing a tough position like centre would be better served by developing another year back at home.
Developmentally the difference between an 18 year old kid and 19 year old kid, let alone a 20 year old, is huge. Honestly, I am not sure I want Caufield in Montreal next season.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jan 9, 2020 19:59:13 GMT -5
Developmentally the difference between an 18 year old kid and 19 year old kid, let alone a 20 year old, is huge. Honestly, I am not sure I want Caufield in Montreal next season. God no. I look at Johnny Gaudreau as being a good comp for Caufield. Yes, he was drafted in the 4th round but it was obvious from his first game at BC that the kid was special. Believe me, I saw him in person a bunch of times and the only question was whether his frame (5'9", 165 lbs) would hold up and if he had the work ethic to really make it in the NHL. His skill and ability to make plays was there at the beginning, yet Gaudreau spent 3 YEARS at BC before he signed his ELC with Calgary. He was a stud from Day 1 in Calgary and I believe it wasn't so much about him improving his skill level, but more about building maturity, confidence, and being ready to step into the NHL and make an impact. Caufield is a similar player. He has the hands to score in the NHL. I also think he's underrated as a playmaker and certainly has the wheels to keep up. I saw him play in person against Merrimack and he's a menace to the opposing team. But he's just 18. There's value in staying in college or junior even if if he's ready ability-wise to play in the NHL. Gaudreau had the skills to play in the NHL after his freshman year but he stayed at BC for 2 more years and was an instant All Star. That's what I want for Caufield. Leave him alone. He's probably got the most upside as a pure sniper than anyone in the organization. He'll be a more confident, consistent, and NHL ready player in 2 years and has a better chance of making an immediate impact. Or he could be rushed, mess with his head, play on the 4th line with scrubs, and suck the life right out of him. No thanks.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 9, 2020 21:42:25 GMT -5
MB and GM sell hope... they did it with KK and they will do it with CC... there is no long term planning... the short term is all they care about.
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Post by UberCranky on Jan 9, 2020 22:02:57 GMT -5
GREAT NEWS!!!!!!
Forbes is going to do another finiancial analysis of the NHL and the Habs are going to be worth over 2 BILLION Canadian
I'm THRILLED about this news.
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Post by Skilly on Jan 9, 2020 22:03:23 GMT -5
And, there is no gaurantee that
A) Caulfield continues to develop / dominate in college /AHL
B) in three years time they still don't put Caulfield on the third /fourth kind to start his career.
Which is why I hate the arguement to let them dominate / gain confidence / get more ice time in lower levels. It assumes that Montreal has some sort of plan as to how they want the lineup to be in 2-3 years. They don't. For starters, it's almost impossible to predict. I prefer that if they can play, then play them and put them in positions to succeed .... For years we complained (or I did) that our prospects stayed too long in the minors and lost their confidence because they didn't think they'd ever get a shot ... I don't want to go back to that either, where there is an arbitrary mandatory waiting period for the rookies
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Post by habsorbed on Jan 10, 2020 2:02:37 GMT -5
First came the magic elixir. Then the witches brew. Then came the snake oil. And then lousy gms realized if you tell ownership and fans that you will improve through the draft you get to buy yourself 5 more years. Every GM has the opportunity to build through the draft - whipdeedoo. Good gms use the draft, as well as trades and free agency. MB failed in maintaining what he inherited. He failed in building a team by astute moves. So, well into his tenure he adopts the build thru the draft potion. And the worst part about it, his record of drafting has not been good. How much swamp land can Geoffy Boy purchase?
MB has to go. Meanwhile, I'm actually enjoying the free fall. It's been a long time coming for these pretentious ownership and management prick$. They wear it well. The 3M is upon us!!!!
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Post by UberCranky on Jan 10, 2020 5:32:47 GMT -5
Like everybody, I have a mixed bag of getting it right about prospects, but, closer to right then wrong.
I'm not getting the warm and fuzzies about Kk and Caufield. Certainly not lofty expectations.
Kk ceiling....2C and average 200ft game. 30% 3C...60% 2C....10% 1C
Caufield.....25 goal and a better DD. Never makes it 25%.....25 goal 65%.....40 goal 10%
As always, I hope I'm wrong on the half empty.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jan 10, 2020 7:56:17 GMT -5
Like everybody, I have a mixed bag of getting it right about prospects, but, closer to right then wrong. I'm not getting the warm and fuzzies about Kk and Caufield. Certainly not lofty expectations. Kk ceiling....2C and average 200ft game. 30% 3C...60% 2C....10% 1C Caufield.....25 goal and a better DD. Never makes it 25%.....25 goal 65%.....40 goal 10% As always, I hope I'm wrong on the half empty. Caufield is a smallert DD RIBIERO. Great numbers against weak opposition.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jan 10, 2020 8:30:47 GMT -5
Meanwhile, Mikhail Sergachev led the Bolts in ice time last night, played on both the PP and PK as Tampa won its 9th straight. Why can't we get players like that?
Berg manages to screw things up just enough to crush you. I thought the deal of trading Sergachev for Drouin was risky, but it made sense in the context of adding another scoring threat to a team that finished 1st in the division in 2016-17 but needed more goals. So what does Berg do? He trades for Drouin in what looked like an "all in" move and then proceeds to let Radulov and Markov walk. Huh?? We haven't seen the playoffs since, Drouin has been a disappointment/tease/injured and our D is among the worst in the NHL. Nice work Bergie!
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 10, 2020 8:43:14 GMT -5
Meanwhile, Mikhail Sergachev led the Bolts in ice time last night, played on both the PP and PK as Tampa won its 9th straight. Why can't we get players like that? Berg manages to screw things up just enough to crush you. I thought the deal of trading Sergachev for Drouin was risky, but it made sense in the context of adding another scoring threat to a team that finished 1st in the division in 2016-17 but needed more goals. So what does Berg do? He trades for Drouin in what looked like an "all in" move and then proceeds to let Radulov and Markov walk. Huh?? We haven't seen the playoffs since, Drouin has been a disappointment/tease/injured and our D is among the worst in the NHL. Nice work Bergie! Plus MB gave them cap relief... that's the kick in the ass.... he got nothing for it. Tbay was a motivated seller... He should have been able to give 2nd or 3rd round draft picks for Drouin not a 9th imo.
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Post by jkr on Jan 10, 2020 8:43:44 GMT -5
I just saw the highlights & heard that the Habs haven't had two 8 game losing streaks in a season in 80 years. How does Bergevin even show his face around the city?
He's not just incompetent, he's historically incompetent. The only people that want him to stay on are fans of other NHL teams.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 10, 2020 8:45:06 GMT -5
Like everybody, I have a mixed bag of getting it right about prospects, but, closer to right then wrong. I'm not getting the warm and fuzzies about Kk and Caufield. Certainly not lofty expectations. Kk ceiling....2C and average 200ft game. 30% 3C...60% 2C....10% 1C Caufield.....25 goal and a better DD. Never makes it 25%.....25 goal 65%.....40 goal 10% As always, I hope I'm wrong on the half empty. Caufield is a smallert DD RIBIERO. Great numbers against weak opposition. Time will tell, I think he can be another DeBrinkat if he's put in the right situation... 1st/2nd line to start... not 4th line to learn how to play a 200 foot game
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 10, 2020 8:46:25 GMT -5
I just saw the highlights & heard that the Habs haven't had two 8 game losing streaks in a season in 80 years. How does Bergevin even show his face around the city? He's not just incompetent, he's historically incompetent. The only people that want him to stay on are fans of other NHL teams. Boston fans have posted on sportsnet comments that they love MB as GM. You also forgot that his cronies want him to stay as GM, so does Geoffey because he makes him so much money. I wonder if Geoffeys kids call MB uncle Marc?
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Post by mikeg on Jan 10, 2020 9:00:50 GMT -5
Like everybody, I have a mixed bag of getting it right about prospects, but, closer to right then wrong. I'm not getting the warm and fuzzies about Kk and Caufield. Certainly not lofty expectations. Kk ceiling....2C and average 200ft game. 30% 3C...60% 2C....10% 1C Caufield.....25 goal and a better DD. Never makes it 25%.....25 goal 65%.....40 goal 10% As always, I hope I'm wrong on the half empty. If CC can stay healthy when he gets to play with men I think he will be a consistent 35+ goal scorer rather quickly. His shot is elite and crazy accurate and if he has someone with great vision to feed him (Suzuki) then the sky is the limit for him. He just needs the right coaches to play him to his strengths and not turn him into a 200 foot player. He will score and score a lot, I am 100% certain on that. KK is still only 19! I think he is going to be a superb 2C within 2 to 3 years, the expectations being placed on him are very high relative to his age and experience. But you can see the potential and as he fills out, trains, etc. he will start to realize it. I was not sure if playing him with the pro team was the right decision but I think he is more than able to handle it and it will end up paying off in the long term.
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Post by habsorbed on Jan 10, 2020 13:33:43 GMT -5
I just saw the highlights & heard that the Habs haven't had two 8 game losing streaks in a season in 80 years. How does Bergevin even show his face around the city? He's not just incompetent, he's historically incompetent. The only people that want him to stay on are fans of other NHL teams. I've lost track of the numerous worst ever records MB's teams have set during his tenure. His tenure will go down as on of the most incompetent in team history. Currently on pace for a below 80 point season - i'll say that again BELOW 80 POINT SEASON. HOW DOES HE KEEP JIS JOB?
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Post by seventeen on Jan 10, 2020 14:08:28 GMT -5
Meanwhile, Mikhail Sergachev led the Bolts in ice time last night, played on both the PP and PK as Tampa won its 9th straight. Why can't we get players like that? Berg manages to screw things up just enough to crush you. I thought the deal of trading Sergachev for Drouin was risky, but it made sense in the context of adding another scoring threat to a team that finished 1st in the division in 2016-17 but needed more goals. So what does Berg do? He trades for Drouin in what looked like an "all in" move and then proceeds to let Radulov and Markov walk. Huh?? We haven't seen the playoffs since, Drouin has been a disappointment/tease/injured and our D is among the worst in the NHL. Nice work Bergie! Plus MB gave them cap relief... that's the kick in the ass.... he got nothing for it. Tbay was a motivated seller... He should have been able to give 2nd or 3rd round draft picks for Drouin not a 9th imo. Said that from the day the trade was made. I have no idea how Tampa keeps getting Cap relief without having to pay anything for it. The Canucks take Miller off their hands and still give up a first rounder! Now Miller's a decent player and not old, but jeeze, Brisebois got some huge help there CAP wise. The deals that some are saying are wins for Bergevin, or inconclusive, still have a lot of risk to them. I was with you on the Drouin deal. I thought Drouin would supply some needed offense and the fact he was a local kid was icing on the cake. Berg thought he was the cake and gave up a conditional 2nd (which we didn't lose) in the bargain. Duh. And now, the risk part of that equation is starting to kick in. Sergachev has been playing better. He improved last year and has gotten better again this year. Not just points wise. but defensively as well. Saw him make a very nice play against a 2 on 1 the other day. I believe he's on the second pair, but in Tampa, you're not going to beat out Hedman for that 1st pair LHD spot. The pendulum is swinging toward a loss on that trade. PK has been better since the coaching change as well. Or his back injury is improving. Either way, Weber is slowing down as the league speeds up toward the latter part of the season and Subban is getting better. That was also a big risk. Funny how teams take on the personality of their leaders. Bergevin never won a Cup, his trades or acquisitions look really good at first (watch out for Kovalchuk) and then fade. The Habs start out a lot of games looking like they're going to win 6-1, fade and then lose. On that note, I wouldn't be putting a lot of money on Chiarot continuing to look as good as he has. In fairness, Tatar is keeping it up, but he slowed down a lot when not paired with Danault and Gallagher. Could just be chemistry.
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Post by seventeen on Jan 10, 2020 14:49:36 GMT -5
Just saw a comment comparing Bergevin to Houle and it made me wonder. During the 5 years Houle ran the team, they finished with a .502 record. Bergevin has a .571 record. We have to look a little deeper, though, to compare apples to apples. Firstly, Houle didn't have the benefit of the loser point era, which turns .500 hockey into .550 hockey. If we take away the 22 extra points Berg got, the winning % drops to .552. Still a solid advantage to Berg.
Secondly, one could split the Berg era into two...the first 3 years when Carey was playing great, when they had Gallant for a couple of those years and when Subban, Pacioretty and Markov were great and Gallagher was adding his sauce and then the following 4.5 years after Bergevin had time to put his stamp on the team.
So, for the last 4.5 years, Berg's winning % is .513 after deducting the loser points. If one check's Houle's record one will also see seasons where many key players were out for 20 games or so each.
Summarizing, even excluding injury issues, Houle had a .502 record (it was actually better. If adjust for the 5 lost games in 1995 before he took over it's .509) and Berg has a .513 record after he molded the team into his image. Not much different. I'd put them pretty well nose to nose. And then one has to understand that Houle had absolutely NO experience in hockey management other than selling beer. NONE. Bergevin had been a scout, Development manager, Assistant GM all before getting hired. So, good old Reggie basically matched Marc's performance despite being thrown into the swimming pool as a babe. What does that say about Bergevin? To top it off, it's easy to forget that Houle was managing in an era where there was no CAP and the Molson's weren't spending anything on the team. On top of all the inexperience issue, Houle didn't even have the resources to get good players. One wonders sometimes if we're too hard on him. His worst deal, the Roy one, happened so early on in his career and was initiated by Tremblay.
Its pretty hard to defend Berg's record when looking at that comparison.
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Post by HFTO on Jan 10, 2020 18:52:09 GMT -5
I think we all know the answer ....but if MB is not fired at the end of this season I’m almost giving up all hope....regardless of what prospects everyone perceives are coming they still fail in comparison to every team in the conference. From day one the hiring of MT to SL in Laval to the early trades of high pics and brutal 1st round pick failures overall this is a disaster. No doubt MB has made several great trades but the makeup and development has been and arguably continues to be a failure. This team needs a new leader(s) it’s obvious it needs a a tear down ....I was opposed to letting Weber and Price go but it’s time to tell them we F’d up and we’ll try and move you to a contender if you want ...it’s not happening with them here that is almost certain. Still to little depth still too small and that will not change for the most part next year....bite the bullet start over please....or find a savant GM that can make a miracle happen ....MB is not that guy.
Fed up but still punish myself watching every minute!!
HFTO
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Post by franko on Jan 10, 2020 19:03:01 GMT -5
Fed up but still punish myself watching insert addiction rehab meme of your choice. and know that you ain't alone.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 10, 2020 19:11:23 GMT -5
I think we all know the answer ....but if MB is not fired at the end of this season I’m almost giving up all hope....regardless of what prospects everyone perceives are coming they still fail in comparison to every team in the conference. From day one the hiring of MT to SL in Laval to the early trades of high pics and brutal 1st round pick failures overall this is a disaster. No doubt MB has made several great trades but the makeup and development has been and arguably continues to be a failure. This team needs a new leader(s) it’s obvious it needs a a tear down ....I was opposed to letting Weber and Price go but it’s time to tell them we F’d up and we’ll try and move you to a contender if you want ...it’s not happening with them here that is almost certain. Still to little depth still too small and that will not change for the most part next year....bite the bullet start over please....or find a savant GM that can make a miracle happen ....MB is not that guy. Fed up but still punish myself watching every minute!! HFTO As a GM, MB has been the equivalent of a broken clock... he's right 2 times a day and a couple of times he's made a good trade has been waaay overshadowed by his poor decisions regarding management and coaching personnel... those decisions have set this team back well over a decade. He needs to be unceremoniously walked to the door... along with his cronies.
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Post by habsorbed on Jan 10, 2020 22:31:12 GMT -5
Fed up but still punish myself watching insert addiction rehab meme of your choice. and know that you ain't alone. Count me as one of the addicts. Thank goodness for this support group - Habs Anonymous aka Habsrus. The focus now isn't on the scoreboard but watching the kids and their development - then get the shakes when KK doesn't get decent wingers.
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Post by habsorbed on Jan 10, 2020 22:43:06 GMT -5
Like everybody, I have a mixed bag of getting it right about prospects, but, closer to right then wrong. I'm not getting the warm and fuzzies about Kk and Caufield. Certainly not lofty expectations. Kk ceiling....2C and average 200ft game. 30% 3C...60% 2C....10% 1C Caufield.....25 goal and a better DD. Never makes it 25%.....25 goal 65%.....40 goal 10% As always, I hope I'm wrong on the half empty. Caufield is a smallert DD RIBIERO. Great numbers against weak opposition. Does MB really have a draft record to brag about? The hopes of all our prospects are just that: hopes! KK looks good altho we're hoping it's a sophomore jinx this season (6 goals). Tkachuk (14 goals and all sorts of presence) is by far the better pick right now. I love KK but jury is still out - can't forget that ladies face at the draft when she heard KK (hope she wasn't more astute than MB). Cole is a long shot passed over by many gms. Ya, he might surprise but right now he is only a hope. I like Payday but still way to early to say he's more than a 3rd liner. Any other potential top scorers drafted by MB I'm overlooking?
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 11, 2020 0:43:25 GMT -5
Caufield is a smallert DD RIBIERO. Great numbers against weak opposition. Does MB really have a draft record to brag about? The hopes of all our prospects are just that: hopes! KK looks good altho we're hoping it's a sophomore jinx this season (6 goals). Tkachuk (14 goals and all sorts of presence) is by far the better pick right now. I love KK but jury is still out - can't forget that ladies face at the draft when she heard KK (hope she wasn't more astute than MB). Cole is a long shot passed over by many gms. Ya, he might surprise but right now he is only a hope. I like Payday but still way to early to say he's more than a 3rd liner. Any other potential top scorers drafted by MB I'm overlooking? Tkachuk wasnt "protected" and told to play a 200 foot bullSaperlipopette game... he got top two line time right off the bat... KK started off with slugs and still gets slugs.
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