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Post by Skilly on Jan 11, 2020 11:05:52 GMT -5
Does MB really have a draft record to brag about? The hopes of all our prospects are just that: hopes! KK looks good altho we're hoping it's a sophomore jinx this season (6 goals). Tkachuk (14 goals and all sorts of presence) is by far the better pick right now. I love KK but jury is still out - can't forget that ladies face at the draft when she heard KK (hope she wasn't more astute than MB). Cole is a long shot passed over by many gms. Ya, he might surprise but right now he is only a hope. I like Payday but still way to early to say he's more than a 3rd liner. Any other potential top scorers drafted by MB I'm overlooking? Tkachuk wasnt "protected" and told to play a 200 foot bullSaperlipopette game... he got top two line time right off the bat... KK started off with slugs and still gets slugs. Which is why I feel Timmins shares some of the blame here. He is the Assistant GM for frig’s sake. Man up, grow a set, a point out he wasn’t scouted / drafted to be a third liner. I could understand if we had better options, but we don’t. Yet they are giving Suzuki some opportunities, why not KK? Before anyone says “how do I know he hasn’t”, show me “how you know he has” ... all we know for sure were Bergevin’s own words at the draft table as to why they selected him “the only way to get a good centerman is to draft them, we you get a chance to do so you don’t pass up that chance” “We see Jesperi as a player who is on the ice when you are up a goal, and when you are down a goal” “We now see ourselves very strong down the middle for years to come with Poehling and now Jesperi” Lots of good words, but no action on the implementation. Soon they will start to blame the player for not developing from the third and fourth lines like they did with so many others ..,
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Post by Skilly on Jan 11, 2020 11:08:00 GMT -5
Does MB really have a draft record to brag about? The hopes of all our prospects are just that: hopes! KK looks good altho we're hoping it's a sophomore jinx this season (6 goals). Tkachuk (14 goals and all sorts of presence) is by far the better pick right now. I love KK but jury is still out - can't forget that ladies face at the draft when she heard KK (hope she wasn't more astute than MB). Cole is a long shot passed over by many gms. Ya, he might surprise but right now he is only a hope. I like Payday but still way to early to say he's more than a 3rd liner. Any other potential top scorers drafted by MB I'm overlooking? Tkachuk wasnt "protected" and told to play a 200 foot bullSaperlipopette game... he got top two line time right off the bat... KK started off with slugs and still gets slugs. “We really liked Tkachuk but when a good centermen is available in the draft, you have to take them. I looked back at prior drafts at centermen who were drafted after wingers; you’d likely take the centermen if you could go back in time” - Bergevin on @antichambre #GoHabsGo — From Failing Hands Podcast (@ffhandspodcast) October 2, 2019
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Post by jkr on Jan 11, 2020 11:10:50 GMT -5
It would be interesting to see what MB said after drafting Galchenyuk.
Both Galchenyuk & JK were drafted at #3 as centres. Both made the team at 18. We all know how AG turned out. I worry about the parallels.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 11, 2020 11:35:24 GMT -5
No, it wasn't poor development or even poor drafting. When McCarron was drafted at 18 the league was all about big forwards and he was certainly that plus he could score. His skating wasn't great but that was not a big deal, the thing with Montreal is they were too small up front so they filled a need in size. The real problem is by the time McCarron was 21-22 the league was switching to fast and skilled players so he just didn't fit the NHL template anymore. The Habs went to drafting skill and speed but now by the time those guys are ready the league has switched to big, fast and skilled. Again the Canadiens are a step behind while teams like Tampa and Carolina got better. Montreal needs a GM with foresight that can build a team that will dictate the future so other teams will have to adapt to beat them instead of chasing the trend. I am going to quote this post, but respond to your last two posts The issue here is you are looking at the draft in hindsight … sure, not many after him were great. But there were players that were better and would have been more useful. McCarron was a risk from day one. Everyone knew it. At the beginning of that draft year, McCarron was projected to be a third round selection. During the year he rose through ONLY ONE ranking set. In every draft profile on McCarron, they say his skating was a weakness, that he is only rising on some draft reports because of his size, that he is a north-south skater and just goes to the front of the net, when he has the puck, he either shoots or makes the simple pass. NOTHING in his draft profile screamed out that he was going to be anything more than a complementary piece. His NHL comparison was Jimmy Hayes in some reports. At the end of the year McCarron was ranked in the following draft reports … The Hockey Writers (The Next Ones Ranking - January 2013): 43 The Hockey Writers (War Room Rankings - April): 55 ISS (May): 28 Future Considerations: Not ranked NHL Numbers: 73 (a consensus aggregate of many sources) CS Final Rankings for North American skaters: 35 One drafting service had him ranked inside the top 30, and we still selected him above that at 25th … he was a risk, from day 1. And not that it matters, but I don't even think Craig Button ranked him (could be wrong there). In any event, yes, I feel I can call this bad drafting. He is big, he is a forward ... But why are we always the ones to selects USHL players? And did you see his skating shooting and IQ numbers?! That's an awful lot of 2s and 3s So Timmins gets us another third liner?? Ugh .... I hope this guy is the Clarkson type by the time he gets to the NHL then But , can he skate at an NHL level? Montreal went entirely off the board to select McCarron. Not only that, but they tried to trade up, and not select 25th. So he wasn't even their guy at 25, they simply selected him to make a pick. And if everyone thinks that this was Montreal making a concerted effort to get bigger, then why oh why, did they sign Daniel Briere to a 2yr/8 million dollar contract just 4 days later. It was a risky pick, it didn't pan out … so yes, we can blame the drafting. Skilly, I'd be leery about using "The Hockey Writers" for any reference and I'm quite sincere about that, buds ... they don't hire accreditated journalists and I know one of them personally (but he's not a personal friend) ... he will often use opinions he finds wherever he can and he doesn't cite his references ... I don't know any of the other writers either personally or otherwise but I found this to be the standard for "The Hockey Writers" ... Cheers.
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Post by franko on Jan 11, 2020 12:55:14 GMT -5
just listening to a Sirius broadcast, talking about the Habs. general consensus: they are desperate for a #1C and will go nowhere until they get one. Danault is not a #1; KK isn't a #1, Poehling isn't a #1. if everyone else can see that, why can't MB?
further, the consensus is that MB can't mess around the edges this summer but has to actually go out and do something other than "trying" a la Aho. if everyone else can see that, why can't MB?
they figure that MB has this as a last year . . . the injury excuse might work this time but unless the Habs take good strides next year he's gotta be gone (you could hear in their voices that they can't believe he's still around).
oh, and "the panel all scoffed at the Habs making the playoffs. sure there is hope but it is faint very faint and not really there . . . but management is holding on. figure they have to pass Florida, Columbus, and Philadelphia to make the playoffs (no way Buffalo is making it this year). but the Habs? it ain't happening. if everyone else can see that, why can't MB?
good core for the future but nothing worth trading this year. MB probably realizes that at least.
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Post by habsorbed on Jan 11, 2020 13:40:51 GMT -5
Tkachuk wasnt "protected" and told to play a 200 foot bullSaperlipopette game... he got top two line time right off the bat... KK started off with slugs and still gets slugs. Which is why I feel Timmins shares some of the blame here. He is the Assistant GM for frig’s sake. Man up, grow a set, a point out he wasn’t scouted / drafted to be a third liner. I could understand if we had better options, but we don’t. Yet they are giving Suzuki some opportunities, why not KK? Before anyone says “how do I know he hasn’t”, show me “how you know he has” ... all we know for sure were Bergevin’s own words at the draft table as to why they selected him “the only way to get a good centerman is to draft them, we you get a chance to do so you don’t pass up that chance” “We see Jesperi as a player who is on the ice when you are up a goal, and when you are down a goal” “We now see ourselves very strong down the middle for years to come with Poehling and now Jesperi” Lots of good words, but no action on the implementation. Soon they will start to blame the player for not developing from the third and fourth lines like they did with so many others .., Doing some more thinking on this snake oil being sold by MB of build through the draft. MB has been gm for 8 drafts now. That's right: 8 drafts. On the current roster the only player over 21 drafted by MB is Lechy. That's it - one! PATHETIC!!! There are a few unproven youngins: Mete (21), Fleury (21), KK (19) and Payday (21). So either he didn't believe in building thru the draft for his first 5 years or he was completely incompetent at it. Why is Molson buying this notion that we need patience to allow MB to build thru the draft. Eight years is pretty damn patient! Can we get a real gm please!
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Post by UberCranky on Jan 11, 2020 14:12:13 GMT -5
I hear lots of complaints about Kk being paired with slugs, but these slugs are also defensivly responsible. Kk, not so much.
Explain to me why Kk has a plus/minus of -10. That's with limited time, protected minutes and defensive "slugs".
Poehling has a -4 and he was yet to score, but is far more defensive minded.
Suzuki has a -6, but at least he is an offensive contributor and catalyst.
If any of you were coaches and your player was a defensive liability, are you going to give him top minutes and top players? Please don't tell me you will cripple your most offensive players by having them baby sit Kk defensive lapsing.
I'm pretty sure Juliens mandate is to win games, also pretty sure it's not to babysit and lose games until Kk learns the game.
Last but not least.....notice all our rookies and sophomores are in the minus column, yet they get ice time even though we are always in close games and one goal away.
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 11, 2020 15:53:58 GMT -5
It would be interesting to see what MB said after drafting Galchenyuk. 5:48 of the clip. Duthie: Everyone's talked about your need for a big centre. Is this the guy you can build around?Berg: Definitely. That's the guy we're focussed on from Day 1, since I took over. And we were glad that he was there at 3. Duthie: So what is it about him that separated him from the rest of the field, in your eyes?Berg: I mean, he's a big centre, and they don't come by (often), and when they do, you draft them. You can't really trade for one because they're not available, so....down the middle for me has to be a strength, and he fits the bill. Even Pierre McGuire, who was just passed over for Berg, was on board. 2:05 of the clip. McGuire: That's a smart move and the right move for Montreal. They're so defence-prospect heavy: Nathan Beaulieu, Jared Tinordi, Morgan Ellis....this is the right pick for the Montreal Canadiens. He's not going to overwhelm you with his skating, but his puck skills are great, his vision is outstanding, his size is what Montreal desperately needs down the middle. This is the right pick for the Montreal Canadiens, Bob.Oops.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 11, 2020 16:19:56 GMT -5
Another high draft pick on the Habs scrap heap because they cant develop Saperlipopette... will KK end up there?
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 11, 2020 17:50:44 GMT -5
Another high draft pick on the Habs scrap heap because they cant develop Saperlipopette... will KK end up there? I'll agree with you if you're talking about Sylvain Lefebvre but, IMHO, it's a tad too early to start throwing the present coaching staff under the bus ... at the very least the Rocket are now developing their prospects in a winning environment, which was almost nonexistent under Lefebvre who placed winning on the backburner ... we'll see how the talent develops in the next few years in Laval under Joel Bouchard but just on the team's record, I'd say they're going in the right direction ... Cheers.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 11, 2020 17:59:15 GMT -5
Another high draft pick on the Habs scrap heap because they cant develop Saperlipopette... will KK end up there? I'll agree with you if you're talking about Sylvain Lefebvre but, IMHO, it's a tad too early to start throwing the present coaching staff under the bus ... at the very least the Rocket are now developing their prospects in a winning environment, which was almost nonexistent under Lefebvre who placed winning on the backburner ... we'll see how the talent develops in the next few years in Laval under Joel Bouchard but just on the team's record, I'd say they're going in the right direction ... Cheers. I dont mean Bouchard, in KKs case I'm talking about CJ. Suze isn't stuck with scrubs. I hope when Armia comes back and with Lekhy playing much better, we will see what KK can do.
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Post by folatre on Jan 11, 2020 18:18:33 GMT -5
Kotkaniemi had stable linemates -- Lehkonen and Armia -- for most the season in 2018-19. And I did not see him dragging down the line defensively.
This season he first played with Drouin and Armia, and things went okay for the most part. Then he got quite a few games with Byron and Weal. Later he has mostly been with some combination of Cousins and Weal or Lehkonen and Cousins.
In my opinion, Cousins and Weal are not good defensive forwards in the NHL. They are barely average skaters in the league. They are undersized. They lose passes in the neutral with far too much regularity.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 11, 2020 18:59:57 GMT -5
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Post by Skilly on Jan 11, 2020 20:05:05 GMT -5
Another high draft pick on the Habs scrap heap because they cant develop Saperlipopette... will KK end up there? I'll agree with you if you're talking about Sylvain Lefebvre but, IMHO, it's a tad too early to start throwing the present coaching staff under the bus ... at the very least the Rocket are now developing their prospects in a winning environment, which was almost nonexistent under Lefebvre who placed winning on the backburner ... we'll see how the talent develops in the next few years in Laval under Joel Bouchard but just on the team's record, I'd say they're going in the right direction ... Cheers. Willie was talking about the similarities between how Galchenyuk was developed vs how Kotkaneimi is now being developed . Sylvain Lefebvre never had anything to do with either one. I’m not sure what winning environment you are alluding to. Laval missed the playoffs last year, and will likely miss this year. The coaching is likely better, but I still don’t see anything on the farm to get excited about. It’s not a coincidence that every prospect everyone is excited about will not set foot in Laval.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 11, 2020 20:55:34 GMT -5
I'll agree with you if you're talking about Sylvain Lefebvre but, IMHO, it's a tad too early to start throwing the present coaching staff under the bus ... at the very least the Rocket are now developing their prospects in a winning environment, which was almost nonexistent under Lefebvre who placed winning on the backburner ... we'll see how the talent develops in the next few years in Laval under Joel Bouchard but just on the team's record, I'd say they're going in the right direction ... Cheers. I dont mean Bouchard, in KKs case I'm talking about CJ. Suze isn't stuck with scrubs. I hope when Armia comes back and with Lekhy playing much better, we will see what KK can do. I understood that Willie, no worries ... it was the tense you used that I was replying to ... I thought you were including the present development system as well when you suggested "they can't develop you-know-what" ... if it's a misunderstanding I can certainly move on from that, mate ... Cheers.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 11, 2020 21:11:44 GMT -5
I dont mean Bouchard, in KKs case I'm talking about CJ. Suze isn't stuck with scrubs. I hope when Armia comes back and with Lekhy playing much better, we will see what KK can do. I understood that Willie, no worries ... it was the tense you used that I was replying to ... I thought you were including the present development system as well when you suggested "they can't develop you-know-what" ... if it's a misunderstanding I can certainly move on from that, mate ... Cheers. No worries bud. I was thrilled when they brought in Ducharme and Bouchard, and if Bouchard had Poehling, Suze and KK in Laval they'd be doing waaay better, unfortunately for him MB insists on selling false hope by having the best prospects in Montreal.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 11, 2020 21:11:50 GMT -5
That's probably the same for every team ...
Cheers.
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Post by Skilly on Jan 12, 2020 11:04:17 GMT -5
That's probably the same for every team ... Cheers. I agree, every others teams prospects won’t set foot in Laval either
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 12, 2020 12:44:51 GMT -5
That's probably the same for every team ... Cheers. I agree, every others teams prospects won’t set foot in Laval either That's a real shame... we could use some of them...
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 12, 2020 12:52:23 GMT -5
That's probably the same for every team ... Cheers. I agree, every others teams prospects won’t set foot in Laval either d'oh! ...
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jan 12, 2020 18:30:55 GMT -5
Hab’s crush Ottawa. Bergevin is a genius. Molson was right all along.
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Post by folatre on Jan 12, 2020 20:31:10 GMT -5
Ray Shero got shown the door today in New Jersey. I get it. Ownership wants to see some results and in 4.5 seasons at the helm, Shero's teams had only made the playoffs once and lost in the first round. Apparently ownership is at least somewhat demanding and Shero's silverware from Pittsburgh (two Prince of Wales trophies and one Stanley Cup) was not enough to placate owners that want to see more than top prospects and draft picks.
Curious, is it not? Marc Bergevin is missing the playoffs for the fourth time in five seasons and lost in the first round of the post season appearance in that time span. Bergevin has no silverware to his credit as a GM. Yet he is safe and snug in his position while I more accomplished GM with a more glittering prospect pool is fired.
I cannot help but ask, are there even a handful of clubs in the league who have as little urgency and ambition to win as the Montreal Canadiens?
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Post by Tankdriver on Jan 12, 2020 20:50:20 GMT -5
Haven't done the research but you got to figure he is getting to the point of one of the longest tenured GM's out there.
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Post by habsorbed on Jan 13, 2020 1:00:55 GMT -5
Haven't done the research but you got to figure he is getting to the point of one of the longest tenured GM's out there. As best I can tell there are only 5 current gms with longer tenures than MB: Kevin Cheveldayof - Jets, Doug Armstrong - Blues, Stan Bowman - Blackhawks, Bob Murray - Ducks, Doug Wilson - SJ. And all of them have much more impressive resumes than MB. Often with Stanley Cups, or Finals appearances, or playoff success. MB has accomplished nothing in his 8 years, and he had a pretty thin resume to start. It is absolutely shocking that he hangs on! Don't know how much Shero was getting paid and how much Geoffy boy's reluctance is as a result of the continuing $ contract obligations. Wonder how much Shero's firing was a result of PK's $9 million contract and his 10 point season so far. And PK still got 2 years remaining. Remind me again, who signed PK to such a huge contract and term?
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Post by UberCranky on Jan 13, 2020 1:48:06 GMT -5
Bbinz isn't holding his job because of his record. There us only one and only one reason...and we all know what it is.
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Post by franko on Jan 13, 2020 6:54:07 GMT -5
Wonder how much Shero's firing was a result of PK's $9 million contract and his 10 point season so far. And PK still got 2 years remaining. Remind me again, who signed PK to such a huge contract and term?the contract that many of us here were more than happy with? the PK that many of us here were angry about trading? at the time it was the right contract . . . or so it seemed. can't complain about it not working out as well as we thought it would. besides, he's no longer our problem (does this make the PK for Weber trade a "win" for MB?).
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Post by folatre on Jan 13, 2020 8:33:23 GMT -5
Weber is certainly playing better hockey than Subban. Nevertheless, I think the response of most if not all GMs around the league would be NO if you asked them the following questions: Would you like Subban for 2 years at $9 million per; would you like Weber for 6 years at $7.86 million per.
Regarding the changes afoot in the Devils organization, a guy who could be a viable candidate in Montreal (Brodeur) may ultimately get the GM position in New Jersey. Not that Molson probably cares, since after all in his mind he probably believes that he has assembled a front office dream team that is the envy of the league.
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Jan 13, 2020 8:41:14 GMT -5
Kotkaniemi had stable linemates -- Lehkonen and Armia -- for most the season in 2018-19. And I did not see him dragging down the line defensively. This season he first played with Drouin and Armia, and things went okay for the most part. Then he got quite a few games with Byron and Weal. Later he has mostly been with some combination of Cousins and Weal or Lehkonen and Cousins. In my opinion, Cousins and Weal are not good defensive forwards in the NHL. They are barely average skaters in the league. They are undersized. They lose passes in the neutral with far too much regularity. I agree with this and would like to add a couple of things. KK just turned 19 so before anyone thinks he is not being developed try to remember he could have still played the world juniors this year. CJ has kept him as the third line center despite struggling at times and when he got injured Suzuki played third line center and did a better job. When KK came back the better move for the team would be to make KK play the wing and leave Suzuki at center but CJ didn't. He put him back at center to further develop. As pointed out KK had linemates of Drouin,Lehkonen and Armia which are not slugs but injuries have made those players unavailable. I don't think there was a plan to have him play with Cousins or Weal or for even those two players be in the top 9 consistently but that is just how things have gone. I don't see CJ misusing KK and he is developing him as strictly an NHL center. He is not good enough yet to surpass Danault or Domi on the top 2 lines, he isn't going to play a 4th line role so for now it is third line center or Laval.
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Post by mikeg on Jan 13, 2020 8:50:39 GMT -5
Fire the GM, fire the coach. Clean house. Hire a POHO and let adults who have accomplished things get to work in building a team.
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Jan 13, 2020 8:59:20 GMT -5
Remind me again, who signed PK to such a huge contract and term? It wasn't MB that wanted to give PK that contract. He was forced to do it by Molson at the last hour. I didn't mind the contract at the time but Subban's game went seriously downhill his last two seasons in Montreal. He was average last year in Nashville and the same again this year in Jersey. I certainly wouldn't want him for 2 more years at 18 million. Weber is better worth the money at 7 million a year than PK at 9 million. You can really forget the term on Weber's contract because his actual salary is only I think 2 million in dollars. His leadership, his on ice presence and shot are still good for a few more years even if he only became a PP specialist for someone's playoff run. He doesn't have any NMC like the Habs would have had in keeping Subban and if Weber does get traded his contract goes with him and if he retires everything owed reverts back to Nashville. As long as Weber is productive the Habs have nothing to worry about. If they want to move him down the road, and someone (Leafs, Rangers, Bruins)will always make room for him even if Montreal retains half his cap hit, which is not real dollars. Weber is easily movable but PK could have been a financial anchor for Montreal in hindsight.
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