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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Mar 5, 2020 23:20:34 GMT -5
I'll be a stick in the mud and say that Jesperi Kotkaniemi is where he should be right now ... he mentioned learning a lot of the little things while in Laval and while I don't know what "little things" he's referring to, the word that jumped out at me when he said he was "learning" ... I couldn't tell you in the least what kind of 'little things' he was learning, but these might skills that he should have but wasn't applying in Montreal ... the organization said they were getting some "resistance" from Kotkaniemi and if that is an attitude issue, then a stint in the AHL might not be a bad motivator ... to that Ryan Poehling openly admitted that he needed an (attitude adjustment) when he first got there, but he seems to be sorting it out now ... apparently, Kotkaniemi had some issues accepting his demotion, too, but his intensity has also picked up recently ... I'll go out on a limb and say, at some point, we'll probably see both of them stick in Montreal next season ... Cheers. Gotta chime in. The Habs brain trust have said a lot of things that we later find out were ‘embellished’. Do you recall PK very politely ‘resisting’ Therrien’s video haranguing? Funny how when a player isn’t succeeding it’s because they resist and haven’t drunk the Kool-Aide. Michel Therrien's go-to phrase was "bad habits" ... he wouldn't elaborate any further whenever he got asked to explain it and he used it kind of like a trump card ... by his own admission, Jesperi Kotkaniemi is learning a lot of the little things in Laval ... he may feel that he could have learned these things in Montreal, just the same, but I'm getting the vibe that the club probably wants their players to know these "little things" before getting to the team ... that said, I think he'll probably make the team out of camp next year and, hopefully, he never stops learning ... Cheers.
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Post by Willie Dog on Mar 6, 2020 6:26:06 GMT -5
The issue I have is coaches are supposed to coach, whether in the ahl or the nhl... if the coaches on the habs can't teach, then why are they there... just to stand behind the bench and give platitudes? There are 4 of them, they cant spend an extra hour or 2 after practice with young guys doing what Bouchard is doing with the Rocket? They get paid enough don't they?
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Post by Boston_Habs on Mar 6, 2020 6:57:19 GMT -5
I'll be a stick in the mud and say that Jesperi Kotkaniemi is where he should be right now .... I agree Dis. He has a lot to work on, the biggest being building up his lower body strength and quickness, but he needs confidence as well. I didn't see the clip but the NHL really isn't the best place for on the job training. At least not for everyone. So when KK says there wasn't as much teaching going on, he's right. There shouldn't be. You need to be able to keep up in all respects and while some guys can learn and adapt quickly to the NHL game, some just need a bit of time. Guy Lafleur is a great example. It took him a few years to figure it out and he's one of the all time greats. Now this organization has mishandled players, and KK may be one of them, but for now I'll give them a pass.
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Post by Willie Dog on Mar 6, 2020 8:03:58 GMT -5
I'll be a stick in the mud and say that Jesperi Kotkaniemi is where he should be right now .... I agree Dis. He has a lot to work on, the biggest being building up his lower body strength and quickness, but he needs confidence as well. I didn't see the clip but the NHL really isn't the best place for on the job training. At least not for everyone. So when KK says there wasn't as much teaching going on, he's right. There shouldn't be. You need to be able to keep up in all respects and while some guys can learn and adapt quickly to the NHL game, some just need a bit of time. Guy Lafleur is a great example. It took him a few years to figure it out and he's one of the all time greats. Now this organization has mishandled players, and KK may be one of them, but for now I'll give them a pass. That argument makes no sense. KK did not decide to start in the NHL. It was MB and CJs decision. He was kept on the team based on flawed logic whereby 'he played really well in preseason, so he should be fine all season long'. He was kept on the team for the sole reason to have a feel good story, put a spin on a disastrous season and sell some magic beans to the fans. The worst of it was, they forced him to be there, then they decide, we not going to teach you what you need to know, we'll put you with scrubs and you should figure it out... That is absolutely asinine asset management, imo. btw, I agree he is in the right place now, he should have never been on the Habs right after his draft year and neither should Sergachev. The only benefit now is he has become a point a game player with the Rocket, they are fighting for a playoff spot, he is gaining valuable experience and training from a very good coach.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Mar 6, 2020 11:22:11 GMT -5
The issue I have is coaches are supposed to coach, whether in the ahl or the nhl... if the coaches on the habs can't teach, then why are they there... just to stand behind the bench and give platitudes? There are 4 of them, they cant spend an extra hour or 2 after practice with young guys doing what Bouchard is doing with the Rocket? They get paid enough don't they? True, but if players can learn everything they need to know about the NHL just by spending a couple of hours with their coaches after each practice then what's the purpose of having a minor-league system ... the AHL is much more than just a holding area for potential future NHLers, it's also a developing ground for them ... with very few exceptions, it used to be standard operating procedure (SOP) for the Habs to have their prospects develop in the minors first before heading to the Canadiens ... having said that, I wasn't suggesting that the parent team doesn't 'teach' at their level, only that they expect their players to have certain skills before getting to the NHL ... does that mean the learning stops when they get there ... no, not at all, but the players should have the basics down before they get there ... that's all I'm suggesting ... Cheers.
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Post by Willie Dog on Mar 6, 2020 11:49:48 GMT -5
The issue I have is coaches are supposed to coach, whether in the ahl or the nhl... if the coaches on the habs can't teach, then why are they there... just to stand behind the bench and give platitudes? There are 4 of them, they cant spend an extra hour or 2 after practice with young guys doing what Bouchard is doing with the Rocket? They get paid enough don't they? True, but if players can learn everything they need to know about the NHL just by spending a couple of hours with their coaches after each practice then what's the purpose of having a minor-league system ... the AHL is much more than just a holding area for potential future NHLers, it's also a developing ground for them ... with very few exceptions, it used to be standard operating procedure (SOP) for the Habs to have their prospects develop in the minors first before heading to the Canadiens ... having said that, I wasn't suggesting that the parent team doesn't 'teach' at their level, only that they expect their players to have certain skills before getting to the NHL ... does that mean the learning stops when they get there ... no, not at all, but the players should have the basics down before they get there ... that's all I'm suggesting ... Cheers. We are in agreement... KK should have never started in the NHL... through no fault of his own.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Mar 6, 2020 12:55:17 GMT -5
The problem with highly rated kids out of juniors or weaker leagues is that they can often succeed on talent alone, by just being better than most everyone else. They get away with bad habits. It does not typically cost their team goals or a game. That changes once you move up and play against rosters where everyone has a strong base of talent and teams play a more structured system. Even the most talented kids need time to adapt and learn.
Drafting and development have not been the Habs strong point. Case in point is the total dearth of draft picks that have made it over the last decade plus. KK may have earned his spot on opening night based on a strong camp, but should he have spent the whole season with the Habs as a skinny 18 year old with lots to learn? Hindsight being what it is, he clearly lost steam part way through the season. Julien said he was tired. The reality is probably closer to him not being physically or otherwise ready for the NHL full season. He needed to learn and develop more. Was being in the coach’s doghouse the best place for that? Why not send him down to Laval at that point to learn and grow in an more learning-conducive environment (this is not a knock on coaching, it is just that the AHL is a development league and the coaches have much more of that mandate than NHL coaches)? Heck, that time in Laval worked for Mete whose game was off the rails for a bit.
KK needs to get stronger with his lower body. Others have mentioned it. It will help with his puck battles and his skating. He is still a skinny teenager. He needs to grow into that body. The talent and hockey IQ are there and it seems like his confidence is coming back from his stint in Laval. I am still not fully sold that the Habs have improved their player development approach enough. Given how much hope they are pinning on our prospects and gazzilion future picks, this sure would be a top priority of my secret strategic plan.
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Post by frozone on Mar 6, 2020 13:07:37 GMT -5
I agree Dis. He has a lot to work on, the biggest being building up his lower body strength and quickness, but he needs confidence as well. I didn't see the clip but the NHL really isn't the best place for on the job training. At least not for everyone. So when KK says there wasn't as much teaching going on, he's right. There shouldn't be. You need to be able to keep up in all respects and while some guys can learn and adapt quickly to the NHL game, some just need a bit of time. Guy Lafleur is a great example. It took him a few years to figure it out and he's one of the all time greats. Now this organization has mishandled players, and KK may be one of them, but for now I'll give them a pass. That argument makes no sense. KK did not decide to start in the NHL. It was MB and CJs decision. He was kept on the team based on flawed logic whereby 'he played really well in preseason, so he should be fine all season long'. He was kept on the team for the sole reason to have a feel good story, put a spin on a disastrous season and sell some magic beans to the fans. The worst of it was, they forced him to be there, then they decide, we not going to teach you what you need to know, we'll put you with scrubs and you should figure it out... That is absolutely asinine asset management, imo. btw, I agree he is in the right place now, he should have never been on the Habs right after his draft year and neither should Sergachev. The only benefit now is he has become a point a game player with the Rocket, they are fighting for a playoff spot, he is gaining valuable experience and training from a very good coach. I tend to side with Boston's post. I'm not sure why you think it doesn't make sense... No one is saying that the NHL coaching staff shouldn't spend some private time with KK here and there, but an NHL coaching staff won't have as much free time to dedicate towards youth development as an AHL coaching staff. The AHL is, after all, a development league. And it sounds like the NHL coaches have already tried to help KK - he just needs more attention. Which is why AHL is best for him right now. Keep in mind that KK's development curve was extremely impressive at the beginning of last year. The time that he has spent in the NHL hasn't necessarily been lost time. His development is still very advanced for a 19 year old. If he would have stayed in Finland or even played in the AHL last year, there's no guarantee that he would be where he is right now. At best, it's debatable. But let's face it: he's not in a bad place. He has one of the best 18 year old seasons in Habs history under his belt already, with some highlight reel plays to boot at the NHL level at 19 years old. I've said it in the "So What's Your Plan?" thread... if I were GM I would hire a full time skills coach. Someone who can make custom plans for our Mtl and Laval players and prospects, and ensure that the plans are being followed. Someone who can stay on the ice after practice and help Mete with his shot, and teach KK how to take a face off. I'm not sure why this isn't the norm in the NHL, but it would be nice if the Habs were one of the first NHL teams to go this route. Heck, might as well hire 2 or 3 skill coaches to work as a team.
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Post by jkr on Mar 6, 2020 13:26:38 GMT -5
I'll be a stick in the mud and say that Jesperi Kotkaniemi is where he should be right now .... I agree Dis. He has a lot to work on, the biggest being building up his lower body strength and quickness, but he needs confidence as well. I didn't see the clip but the NHL really isn't the best place for on the job training. At least not for everyone. So when KK says there wasn't as much teaching going on, he's right. There shouldn't be. You need to be able to keep up in all respects and while some guys can learn and adapt quickly to the NHL game, some just need a bit of time. Guy Lafleur is a great example. It took him a few years to figure it out and he's one of the all time greats. Now this organization has mishandled players, and KK may be one of them, but for now I'll give them a pass. I can't give these guys a pass on anything because its not the first time they've made the wrong call. Galchenyuk is a prime example of someone rushed into the league. What exactly are the coaches spending their time on? Developing a lethal power play?
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Post by BadCompany on Mar 6, 2020 14:02:04 GMT -5
Kotkaniemi had knee surgery at the end of last season, and while I'm not totally sure, I think it was the first time he'd ever been operated on.
He then suffered a groin injury in late October that caused him to miss two weeks (7 games).
He then suffered a concussion in early December, that caused him to miss a further three weeks (8 games).
Knee, groin, head. Perhaps the top three areas you DON'T want to get hurt if you are a hockey player.
Kotkaniemi has not played well this year. But a lot happened this year. This is neither on the coaches, nor on the player, if you ask me. It's just a bad year. It happens. Hopefully he learns from this.
We have a 19 year old, 6'2, 200lbs center averaging more than a point-per-game in the AHL (despite a shooting percentage under 4). I'm not worried.
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Mar 6, 2020 14:59:27 GMT -5
I agree, you see lots of kids ages 22-23 come from Europe or up from the AHL and have a difficult time adjusting in their 2nd year. This is a kid that has 100 games of NHL experience before the age of 20. He proved last year he could play in the league and like BC says he got banged up quite a bit to start the year. The AHL for a season won't hurt this kid one bit. I have listened to so called "hockey guys" on radio and print say the MB made a mistake taking KK third overall. Time will tell but that will be 4-5 years from now and not when the kid still cant legally drink a beer on a road trip to the US.
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Post by folatre on Mar 6, 2020 16:00:32 GMT -5
It is too early to conclude picking Kotkaniemi was a mistake at #3. The main thing driving this skepticism, in my opinion, is the Bergevin regime's poor draft and development record.
The AHL is not going to hurt his development. However, I believe that rushing him to the NHL was the wrong decision. And management's handling of him this season and Bergevin criticizing him publicly creates conditions where Kotkaniemi may not trust Julien and Bergevin moving forward. Let's face it, it is not great form for a 55 year old who has not been very good at his job to call out a 19 year old.
Again, I cannot help but to come back to the issue of what does accountability mean in this organization.
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Post by UberCranky on Mar 6, 2020 16:03:58 GMT -5
The issue I have is coaches are supposed to coach, whether in the ahl or the nhl... if the coaches on the habs can't teach, then why are they there... just to stand behind the bench and give platitudes? There are 4 of them, they cant spend an extra hour or 2 after practice with young guys doing what Bouchard is doing with the Rocket? They get paid enough don't they? Ummm....i got a thing or two to say about that.... Managers are not some bots that have a playbook to go by and then rated on their effectivness. What they do or don't do goes right back to the top of the food chain. To which i ask, how effective is Bbinz in directing and demanding of his coaches snd sub coaches? Does he assess and demand certain actions and levels from HIS coaches and staff? Does he follow through? Does he get hands on? On top of all this, does his coaching staff respect his direction and if not, fear the consequences? The worse thing of all is that he has neither the respect nor the knowledge of how to get the respect, nor the knowledge to direct his coaches at the most effective way to do their coaching. Someone would argue that it's the job of the head to do the above, true, but only to s certain extent. The GENERAL manager needs to have the working knowledge of coaching and methods to asses if his head coach and sub coaches are effective. I can go on and on, but the bottom line is that it's on Bbinz to MANAGE the team. Unfortunatly, we knkw the answer to that....
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Post by Willie Dog on Mar 6, 2020 16:47:59 GMT -5
The issue I have is coaches are supposed to coach, whether in the ahl or the nhl... if the coaches on the habs can't teach, then why are they there... just to stand behind the bench and give platitudes? There are 4 of them, they cant spend an extra hour or 2 after practice with young guys doing what Bouchard is doing with the Rocket? They get paid enough don't they? Ummm....i got a thing or two to say about that.... Managers are not some bots that have a playbook to go by and then rated on their effectivness. What they do or don't do goes right back to the top of the food chain. To which i ask, how effective is Bbinz in directing and demanding of his coaches snd sub coaches? Does he assess and demand certain actions and levels from HIS coaches and staff? Does he follow through? Does he get hands on? On top of all this, does his coaching staff respect his direction and if not, fear the consequences? The worse thing of all is that he has neither the respect nor the knowledge of how to get the respect, nor the knowledge to direct his coaches at the most effective way to do their coaching. Someone would argue that it's the job of the head to do the above, true, but only to s certain extent. The GENERAL manager needs to have the working knowledge of coaching and methods to asses if his head coach and sub coaches are effective. I can go on and on, but the bottom line is that it's on Bbinz to MANAGE the team. Unfortunatly, we knkw the answer to that.... There plenty of blame to go around... from top to bottom
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Mar 6, 2020 16:58:18 GMT -5
Ummm....i got a thing or two to say about that.... Managers are not some bots that have a playbook to go by and then rated on their effectivness. What they do or don't do goes right back to the top of the food chain. To which i ask, how effective is Bbinz in directing and demanding of his coaches snd sub coaches? Does he assess and demand certain actions and levels from HIS coaches and staff? Does he follow through? Does he get hands on? On top of all this, does his coaching staff respect his direction and if not, fear the consequences? The worse thing of all is that he has neither the respect nor the knowledge of how to get the respect, nor the knowledge to direct his coaches at the most effective way to do their coaching. Someone would argue that it's the job of the head to do the above, true, but only to s certain extent. The GENERAL manager needs to have the working knowledge of coaching and methods to asses if his head coach and sub coaches are effective. I can go on and on, but the bottom line is that it's on Bbinz to MANAGE the team. Unfortunatly, we knkw the answer to that.... There plenty of blame to go around... from top to bottom I’m all in favor of “youth movement, fun speed ahead” if we start with a younger improved GM.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Mar 6, 2020 19:25:08 GMT -5
And a new coach? I was driving home today and I can't tell you how much Bruins fans DON'T MISS Claude Julien. A solid system guy, but the modern game is about finding creative ways to produce offense and letting your best players do what they do best. Bruce Cassidy is all about that and the B's have been a wagon since Cassidy took over. Guys like Pastrnak and Marchand have been unleashed and Bergeron has been a consistent 30-goal guy under Cassidy and he rarely was under Julien. Claude has a set way of looking at the game, defense first and low risk offense. We're past that now. There was a good piece in Habs EOTB about how creative the Tampa offense is, constantly looking for advantages in the O-zone, not afraid to work back to the blue line and high in the zone. Claude doesn't do that. Neither did Therrien.
We KNOW it's time for the GM to go. I think it may be time for the coach too.
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Post by CentreHice on Mar 6, 2020 20:51:41 GMT -5
Bergevin recently said Julien will be back next year.
They each have 2 years remaining on contract...and they just may make it. Molson is bound to be fooled by modest improvement next season.
Besides, who else is available for GM?
In terms of the next coach...
Question for those familiar with Ducharme's work in the Q....is he a modern game coach?
If he IS leading-edge, I'm wondering how much influence he would have on Julien's old school ways.
It would appear to be very little...ha! Maybe Ducharme's just following orders...and champing at the bit to get his chance.
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Post by jkr on Mar 6, 2020 21:42:17 GMT -5
It is too early to conclude picking Kotkaniemi was a mistake at #3. The main thing driving this skepticism, in my opinion, is the Bergevin regime's poor draft and development record. The AHL is not going to hurt his development. However, I believe that rushing him to the NHL was the wrong decision. And management's handling of him this season and Bergevin criticizing him publicly creates conditions where Kotkaniemi may not trust Julien and Bergevin moving forward. Let's face it, it is not great form for a 55 year old who has not been very good at his job to call out a 19 year old. Again, I cannot help but to come back to the issue of what does accountability mean in this organization. The other thing is Tkachuk's success so far - 22 goals last year, 20 goals so far this season. It's hard not to look at those numbers and wonder.
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Post by folatre on Mar 6, 2020 22:10:12 GMT -5
I like Brodeur's preparation to work as a GM, but apparently he is hammering out the details to become the Devils' President of Hockey Operations.
I also believe a guy like Martin Madden Jr. would be a strong choice, despite the fact that he has not been a GM, since his background fits the vision (drafting and development) that Molson supposedly espouses. For me it would be ideal to have an ex-Hab with sufficient gravitas to serve as President (perhaps Carbonneau).
Molson needs to be preparing relevant short-lists because the status quo cannot continue much longer. If this veteran core manages to miss the playoffs once again next season (a likelier scenario, I believe, than the scenario whereby they make it), the GM and the Coach simply could not return.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Mar 7, 2020 5:15:37 GMT -5
I like Brodeur's preparation to work as a GM, but apparently he is hammering out the details to become the Devils' President of Hockey Operations. I also believe a guy like Martin Madden Jr. would be a strong choice, despite the fact that he has not been a GM, since his background fits the vision (drafting and development) that Molson supposedly espouses. For me it would be ideal to have an ex-Hab with sufficient gravitas to serve as President (perhaps Carbonneau). Molson needs to be preparing relevant short-lists because the status quo cannot continue much longer. If this veteran core manages to miss the playoffs once again next season (a likelier scenario, I believe, than the scenario whereby they make it), the GM and the Coach simply could not return. Although his fluency in French is limited, there is a former superstar who has extensive experience dealing with the press in Quebec, Eric Lindros for GM.
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Post by mikeg on Mar 7, 2020 11:01:57 GMT -5
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Post by habsorbed on Mar 7, 2020 13:12:37 GMT -5
It is indeed a bad year for KK. I saw him being interviewed earlier this week and he actually seemed depressed. Remember that delightful ray of sunshine last year when he would smile and people would melt. He was always quite playful with the media, perhaps in his naivete. Not anymore. Maybe it's the kids maturing and realizing life can be tough, but I fear he has been scared by this bad year. and while one can't do much about injuries and being faced with tough decisions by management, I sure as heck don't think dissing the 19 year old in public is very helpful. If it's not bullying then it is a sign of frustration by MB and CJ. In either case they should not be part of the organization if this is how they are going to be treating our youth!
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Post by Willie Dog on Mar 7, 2020 13:31:15 GMT -5
I like Brodeur's preparation to work as a GM, but apparently he is hammering out the details to become the Devils' President of Hockey Operations. I also believe a guy like Martin Madden Jr. would be a strong choice, despite the fact that he has not been a GM, since his background fits the vision (drafting and development) that Molson supposedly espouses. For me it would be ideal to have an ex-Hab with sufficient gravitas to serve as President (perhaps Carbonneau). Molson needs to be preparing relevant short-lists because the status quo cannot continue much longer. If this veteran core manages to miss the playoffs once again next season (a likelier scenario, I believe, than the scenario whereby they make it), the GM and the Coach simply could not return. Although his fluency in French is limited, there is a former superstar who has extensive experience dealing with the press in Quebec, Eric Lindros for GM. You're a funny guy
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Post by Willie Dog on Mar 7, 2020 13:32:24 GMT -5
I like Brodeur's preparation to work as a GM, but apparently he is hammering out the details to become the Devils' President of Hockey Operations. I also believe a guy like Martin Madden Jr. would be a strong choice, despite the fact that he has not been a GM, since his background fits the vision (drafting and development) that Molson supposedly espouses. For me it would be ideal to have an ex-Hab with sufficient gravitas to serve as President (perhaps Carbonneau). Molson needs to be preparing relevant short-lists because the status quo cannot continue much longer. If this veteran core manages to miss the playoffs once again next season (a likelier scenario, I believe, than the scenario whereby they make it), the GM and the Coach simply could not return. Bobby Smith or Vinnie Damphouse for PoHo
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Post by UberCranky on Mar 7, 2020 14:31:44 GMT -5
The other thing is Tkachuk's success so far - 22 goals last year, 20 goals so far this season. It's hard not to look at those numbers and wonder. What bothered me at that draft was what appeared to be a manufactured "consensus" by talking head and media. Kk was not top 3 material until the bobble heads made him so. Then there was Bbinz trying to draft on need rather then the universal law of BPA. Here we are....and praying for the best. Kk can NOT be a failure. Bbinz can't attract FA, can't trade to build the team and the only avenue left is not looking great.
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Post by UberCranky on Mar 7, 2020 14:35:00 GMT -5
Bobby Smith or Vinnie Damphouse for PoHo Can they manage? Because odds are, unless there is a dead cold, nasty POS with nothing but WIN welded in their eyeballs, the very last thing we need is another layer of incompetence and nepotism.
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Post by seventeen on Mar 7, 2020 17:37:38 GMT -5
Bobby Smith or Vinnie Damphouse for PoHo Can they manage? Because odds are, unless there is a dead cold, nasty POS with nothing but WIN welded in their eyeballs, the very last thing we need is another layer of incompetence and nepotism. Smith is the majority owner of the Halifax Mooseheads, so he has some experience on the management side of things in addition to the hockey side of things. Not sure about Vinny's business background or experience, but his name has been proposed often. I'd want more than someone who's been an analyst after their hockey career. Smith fits that bill, Damphousse may not.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Mar 7, 2020 18:18:36 GMT -5
... Marc Bergevin Throws Another Player Under the Bus ... ... I've heard the same issue come out here and there on our blog ...
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Post by UberCranky on Mar 7, 2020 18:38:03 GMT -5
Can they manage? Because odds are, unless there is a dead cold, nasty POS with nothing but WIN welded in their eyeballs, the very last thing we need is another layer of incompetence and nepotism. Smith is the majority owner of the Halifax Mooseheads, so he has some experience on the management side of things in addition to the hockey side of things. Not sure about Vinny's business background or experience, but his name has been proposed often. I'd want more than someone who's been an analyst after their hockey career. Smith fits that bill, Damphousse may not. If Smith has horns and wont back down from a "win" objective, then I'm all in. Something.....anything.....is better then 8 years of futility under the same clown.
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Post by BadCompany on Jun 14, 2020 10:17:42 GMT -5
We forget that he's still only 19, and still putting on man-muscle. Apparently he's also been working with a speed skating coach.
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