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Post by BadCompany on Feb 18, 2020 16:03:26 GMT -5
As per the internet, to St. Louis.
Bergevin essentially flipped a 4th for a few weeks of Scandella, and a 2nd. And a conditional 4th if the Blues resign Scandella or win two rounds in the playoffs.
Pretty good.
Not that it matters, but Renaud Lavoie is reporting that the Habs are retaining 50% of Scandella's salary, which is the maximum allowable.
He is also reporting that the Habs approached Scandella about signing an extension, and he said that he wanted to wait until the end of the year to talk. So... buh-bye.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 18, 2020 16:11:10 GMT -5
It’s a sellers market. Think what he could get for a good player. I’m incredibly surprised at what GM’s Are paying. It’s the Vancouver/Toronto real estate. Great return for a replaceable player.
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Post by BadCompany on Feb 18, 2020 16:13:33 GMT -5
It’s a sellers market. Think what he could get for a good player. It suggests to me that this isn't a very good draft. Despite the usual " best draft evah!" from the usual suspects trying to sell something, I've heard that there is a serious drop off after the 10th pick or so. Given the way teams are throwing away picks for average players that would appear, to me anyways, to be the case.
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Post by jkr on Feb 18, 2020 16:26:02 GMT -5
Plus the Blues are in a tough spot with the Bouwmeester situation. Might explain the higher price.
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Post by habsorbed on Feb 18, 2020 16:26:46 GMT -5
It’s a sellers market. Think what he could get for a good player. i'll say. Can't beleive we got a second for Scandella, a bottom pair guy. Interesting after all Scandy's talk about a dream to play in his home town, he didn't seem to interested in sticking around. Glad to see him leave - he was a typical Barginbin pick-up.
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Post by folatre on Feb 18, 2020 16:31:58 GMT -5
McGuire maintains that this is a very good, deep draft. Others, like Bob McKenzie, seem to characterize it as sort of average.
Regarding the trade, this is a nice flip by Bergevin. The Blues suddenly have some real uncertainty with Bouwmeester's situation and fortunately Montreal was well positioned with cap space and a veteran d-man to take advantage of the opportunity.
For me Scanadella is nothing more than a third pair guy. Bergevin probably tried to sell him on taking a Kulak type deal and playing at home. Scandella probably thinks someone out there perceives him the same way Minnesota did five years ago when he got his current deal.
Bergevin's focus needs to be on getting Mete and Romanov signed.
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Post by jkr on Feb 18, 2020 16:38:30 GMT -5
Just my opinion but I think McKenzie is more plugged in to draft quality talk then McGuire.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Feb 18, 2020 16:51:39 GMT -5
This draft has a very good top ten, a drop off until about pick twenty, and then a further drop. There will be decent players in the second round, but again you have to have some good scouting and some luck. Having three picks now does increase our chances of getting an NHLer or more out of the second round. I think Bobby Mac is much more accurate...this feels like an average draft to me, and I have seen a lot of the guys in the first few rounds play (not anywhere as many as those draft gurus on tv, but at least more than the casual fan).
A second is more than I would have expected for Scandella. Good for Berg. I cannot believe they were talking extension already. Bad on Berg. Eating $2M of salary this year is nothing. They free up a roster spot and $4M next season...that is good.
The conditional fourth is just bonus. I guess I can cheer for the Blues to win two series and also play Scandella a lot!
Don't stop now, those offers will just get better.
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Post by habsorbed on Feb 18, 2020 17:02:38 GMT -5
it would need to be a very deep draft as this pick is probably in the mid 50s and maybe even 62nd overall. Most likely just another random pick which may or not be a NHL player.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Feb 18, 2020 19:47:57 GMT -5
it would need to be a very deep draft as this pick is probably in the mid 50s and maybe even 62nd overall. Most likely just another random pick which may or not be a NHL player. He could also use it to move up. Although, he tends to trade down and accumulate worse picks. Drives me nuts a tad.
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Post by UberCranky on Feb 18, 2020 20:35:29 GMT -5
We got a "better return" but we still have a great big fat hole in that position.
Essentially, Bbinz has finally given up on the season.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 18, 2020 20:45:16 GMT -5
... Renaud Lavoie is reporting that the Habs are retaining 50% of Scandella's salary, which is the maximum allowable ... I'm willing to bet that the retention of 50% of that salary is what gave Marc Bergevin the leverage to ask for a 2nd ... and landing a conditional 4th in 2020, which isn't a bad thing ... if that 4th goes on the books Montreal will have 10 picks in the first four rounds ... if they do move Ilya Kovalchuk they'll probably have another top-3 pick to use later this year and that would give them six picks in the first three rounds ... I'm not sure if this is a weak draft year but between Bergevin and Trevor Timmins, they have enough combinations of assets to make a viable pitch for Alexis Lafreniere ... even if they can get it done, Timmins and his table have enough picks to keep the attention of the draft on Montreal ... as for the trade, itself, I thought Montreal got the better of the deal but St Louis got what they were looking for, too ... a cheap, veteran NHL depth d-man who's been around the block ... Cheers.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 18, 2020 21:03:56 GMT -5
We got a "better return" but we still have a great big fat hole in that position. Essentially, Bbinz has finally given up on the season. If he trades another roster player I'd say we'll know which way the Habs are leaning this year ... just heard Pierre Lebrun say that Montreal might be asking for a 2nd for Ilya Kovalchuk and if they don't get it they'll try to re-sign him for next year ... not sure who else would be available ... I read somewhere on the boards that Nate Thompson would be a player some teams wouldn't mind adding ... he's 55.4% * on faceoffs and I've seen him out there for important faceoffs ... you're right about shoring up the left side of the defence corps, though ... not sure what Bergevin has in mind for that ... Cheers.
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Post by habsorbed on Feb 19, 2020 4:02:14 GMT -5
... Renaud Lavoie is reporting that the Habs are retaining 50% of Scandella's salary, which is the maximum allowable ... I'm willing to bet that the retention of 50% of that salary is what gave Marc Bergevin the leverage to ask for a 2nd ... and landing a conditional 4th in 2020, which isn't a bad thing ... if that 4th goes on the books Montreal will have 10 picks in the first four rounds ... if they do move Ilya Kovalchuk they'll probably have another top-3 pick to use later this year and that would give them six picks in the first three rounds ... I'm not sure if this is a weak draft year but between Bergevin and Trevor Timmins, they have enough combinations of assets to make a viable pitch for Alexis Lafreniere ... even if they can't get it done, Timmins and his table have enough picks to keep the attention of the draft on Montreal ... as for the trade, itself, I thought Montreal got the better of the deal but St Louis got what they were looking for, too ... a cheap, veteran NHL depth d-man who's been around the block ... Cheers. Help me here. Are you saying that even though we will not get the first overall pick in the lottery, you think MB will be able to convince the gm who does get that pick to trade it to us? i'm looking for any hope available at this time, so can you explain how you see that happening? And if it has ever happened since Sam Pollock did it when gms were green and didn't understand the value of top draft picks.
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Post by franko on Feb 19, 2020 6:52:24 GMT -5
Help me here. Are you saying that even though we will not get the first overall pick in the lottery, you think MB will be able to convince the gm who does get that pick to trade it to us? i'm looking for any hope available at this time, so can you explain how you see that happening? And if it has ever happened since Sam Pollock did it when gms were green and didn't understand the value of top draft picks. ANY GM who trades this year's #1 overall pick for ANYTHING short of . . . well I can't even imagine what . . . will be looked at as the fool of the century.
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Post by BadCompany on Feb 19, 2020 7:41:09 GMT -5
The only way to get the first overall pick is to win the lottery, or to make a trade offer so stupid that they'd have no choice but to accept it. I'm talking Suzuki, Kotkaniemi, Caufield, Romanov and our 1st. Which isn't going to happen, and even then it might not be enough. So you have to win the lottery. *MAYBE* if you have the 2nd overall you can get it done, but even then I'm not sure.
Which is why I'm an advocate of trading Gallagher. He's the only player on the roster who I think could get you two first round picks, one this year and one next. And it's next year's pick that you hope wins you the lottery, because you trade him to a team that you think will fall of a cliff. That's the only way for a non-lottery team to end up with a lottery pick, if you ask me. Ottawa did it with the Karlsson trade, Colorado did it with the Duchene trade, Boston did it with the Kessel trade. It takes luck, of course, but it's more likely than trying to trade up to #1, if you ask me.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 19, 2020 10:15:35 GMT -5
I'm willing to bet that the retention of 50% of that salary is what gave Marc Bergevin the leverage to ask for a 2nd ... and landing a conditional 4th in 2020, which isn't a bad thing ... if that 4th goes on the books Montreal will have 10 picks in the first four rounds ... if they do move Ilya Kovalchuk they'll probably have another top-3 pick to use later this year and that would give them six picks in the first three rounds ... I'm not sure if this is a weak draft year but between Bergevin and Trevor Timmins, they have enough combinations of assets to make a viable pitch for Alexis Lafreniere ... even if they can't get it done, Timmins and his table have enough picks to keep the attention of the draft on Montreal ... as for the trade, itself, I thought Montreal got the better of the deal but St Louis got what they were looking for, too ... a cheap, veteran NHL depth d-man who's been around the block ... Cheers. Help me here. Are you saying that even though we will not get the first overall pick in the lottery, you think MB will be able to convince the gm who does get that pick to trade it to us? No, I'm sure I didn't say that at all ... I only said that he'll have enough ammo to make a viable pitch for the pick ... Cheers.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 19, 2020 10:16:51 GMT -5
The only way to get the first overall pick is to win the lottery, or to make a trade offer so stupid that they'd have no choice but to accept it. I'm talking Suzuki, Kotkaniemi, Caufield, Romanov and our 1st. Which isn't going to happen, and even then it might not be enough. So you have to win the lottery. *MAYBE* if you have the 2nd overall you can get it done, but even then I'm not sure. Which is why I'm an advocate of trading Gallagher. He's the only player on the roster who I think could get you two first round picks, one this year and one next. And it's next year's pick that you hope wins you the lottery, because you trade him to a team that you think will fall of a cliff. That's the only way for a non-lottery team to end up with a lottery pick, if you ask me. Ottawa did it with the Karlsson trade, Colorado did it with the Duchene trade, Boston did it with the Kessel trade. It takes luck, of course, but it's more likely than trying to trade up to #1, if you ask me. I'll remember that ... thanks dude ...
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Post by Willie Dog on Feb 19, 2020 11:13:46 GMT -5
The only way to get the first overall pick is to win the lottery, or to make a trade offer so stupid that they'd have no choice but to accept it. I'm talking Suzuki, Kotkaniemi, Caufield, Romanov and our 1st. Which isn't going to happen, and even then it might not be enough. So you have to win the lottery. *MAYBE* if you have the 2nd overall you can get it done, but even then I'm not sure. Which is why I'm an advocate of trading Gallagher. He's the only player on the roster who I think could get you two first round picks, one this year and one next. And it's next year's pick that you hope wins you the lottery, because you trade him to a team that you think will fall of a cliff. That's the only way for a non-lottery team to end up with a lottery pick, if you ask me. Ottawa did it with the Karlsson trade, Colorado did it with the Duchene trade, Boston did it with the Kessel trade. It takes luck, of course, but it's more likely than trying to trade up to #1, if you ask me. That requires creative thinking and forward planning... not found in Bell Centre Executive Offices
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 19, 2020 11:24:20 GMT -5
The only way to get the first overall pick is to win the lottery, or to make a trade offer so stupid that they'd have no choice but to accept it. I'm talking Suzuki, Kotkaniemi, Caufield, Romanov and our 1st. Which isn't going to happen, and even then it might not be enough. So you have to win the lottery. *MAYBE* if you have the 2nd overall you can get it done, but even then I'm not sure. Which is why I'm an advocate of trading Gallagher. He's the only player on the roster who I think could get you two first round picks, one this year and one next. And it's next year's pick that you hope wins you the lottery, because you trade him to a team that you think will fall of a cliff. That's the only way for a non-lottery team to end up with a lottery pick, if you ask me. Ottawa did it with the Karlsson trade, Colorado did it with the Duchene trade, Boston did it with the Kessel trade. It takes luck, of course, but it's more likely than trying to trade up to #1, if you ask me. That requires creative thinking and forward planning... not found in Bell Centre Executive Offices I remember Andre Savard putting together a huge package back in the day that was aimed at getting Ilya Kovalchuk ... that was where I was coming from with the Habs making a pitch for the 1st overall pick ... Cheers.
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Post by frozone on Feb 19, 2020 11:34:48 GMT -5
The only way to get the first overall pick is to win the lottery, or to make a trade offer so stupid that they'd have no choice but to accept it. I'm talking Suzuki, Kotkaniemi, Caufield, Romanov and our 1st. Which isn't going to happen, and even then it might not be enough. So you have to win the lottery. *MAYBE* if you have the 2nd overall you can get it done, but even then I'm not sure. Which is why I'm an advocate of trading Gallagher. He's the only player on the roster who I think could get you two first round picks, one this year and one next. And it's next year's pick that you hope wins you the lottery, because you trade him to a team that you think will fall of a cliff. That's the only way for a non-lottery team to end up with a lottery pick, if you ask me. Ottawa did it with the Karlsson trade, Colorado did it with the Duchene trade, Boston did it with the Kessel trade. It takes luck, of course, but it's more likely than trying to trade up to #1, if you ask me. This. But which team do you propose we target? I have a hunch every year that Boston is poised to fall off that cliff, but every year they continue to get it done. I think I would be tempted to target their 2021 first rounder anyway. Bergeron is 34, Chara is 42, and the team is extremely top heavy in general. They can't afford for any of their stars to have an off year. With the rumours that Boston has been interested in Kovalchuk, I wonder what it would take to nab their 2021 first rounder. It would probably have to be Kovalchuk +...?
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Post by Willie Dog on Feb 19, 2020 12:06:46 GMT -5
Kovalchuk plus Danault???
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Post by BadCompany on Feb 19, 2020 12:38:39 GMT -5
This. But which team do you propose we target? I have a hunch every year that Boston is poised to fall off that cliff, but every year they continue to get it done. I think I would be tempted to target their 2021 first rounder anyway. Bergeron is 34, Chara is 42, and the team is extremely top heavy in general. They can't afford for any of their stars to have an off year. With the rumours that Boston has been interested in Kovalchuk, I wonder what it would take to nab their 2021 first rounder. It would probably have to be Kovalchuk +...? It's hard to say, as every year there are surprises, both good and bad. I thought for sure Columbus would be a lottery pick, for example, so what do I know? Having said that, I think there are lot of teams that are currently punching above their weight, and could be candidates for a sudden fall. Like Calgary, Vegas, Nashville, Dallas, Vancouver, Edmonton, Winnipeg…
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Post by Andrew on Feb 19, 2020 12:55:44 GMT -5
I remember Andre Savard putting together a huge package back in the day that was aimed at getting Ilya Kovalchuk ... that was where I was coming from with the Habs making a pitch for the 1st overall pick ... Well with the draft in Montreal and the prized #1 pick a french Canadian superstar, MB isn't doing his job if he doesn't at least kick tires on the pick. I'd imagine there will be a ton of trade speculation and hype on this topic heading into the draft weekend (unless of course the Habs win the lottery, then it'll just be a big week long party).
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Feb 19, 2020 13:50:43 GMT -5
it would need to be a very deep draft as this pick is probably in the mid 50s and maybe even 62nd overall. Most likely just another random pick which may or not be a NHL player. Well said. To put it into perspective, we traded a good nhl defenseman for the 62nd pick in the draft and absorb 1/2 his salary. The 62nd pick in the draft by Bergevin is likely the 75th best player.
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Post by franko on Feb 19, 2020 14:34:54 GMT -5
the thread started out as "good on Berg for getting something" (upgrading a 4th to a 2nd and a conditional 4th) and now it's terrible that he made the trade? I don't get it.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 19, 2020 15:17:59 GMT -5
The trade was very good. He converted a 4th rounder into a likely late 2nd rounder, for nothing, so that's good progress. Give me a pick 40 spots ahead of where I was and I'm in. Five more days to go.
I'm disappointed that Bergevin is still in charge of the makeover. There's too much baggage there for him to make good decisions. What if someone offers a hell of a deal for Price? Or Weber? Do you really think he'd pull the trigger? I don't. Same thing with Danault or Gallagher. I think his own personal preferences and biases may have prevented him from making some good deals in the past. Unfortunately we will never know.
Does anyone have specific or at least solid info to the summer of 2016. There was a lot of scuttlebutt that Edmonton and Montreal were dealing with Subban in the frame. I seem to recall that the ask was Draisaitl, Nurse and Edmonton's 1st (4th overall). One has to recall that Subban was at his best then, so had more value than he does today. Draisaitl had not broken out either. When I heard that at the time I was skeptical, because I liked Nurse and Edmonton's 4th overall would give the Habs a shot at Dubois. I thought it was too much to ask and Edmonton obviously thought so too. Salaries were also an issue. What if Chiarelli had responded with Hall and Edmonton's 1st? To me that was more of a fair value deal. Habs could have ended up with Tkachuk and Sergachev. So, instead of Weber and Drouin on the roster, we may have had Hall, Matt Tkachuk and Mikhael Sergachev.
I realize that's complete speculation, but it is an interesting exercise to point out that asking for too much can have a price. Taking on Subban's salary would have been much easier with Hall going back the other way.
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Post by UberCranky on Feb 19, 2020 15:47:11 GMT -5
We got a "better return" but we still have a great big fat hole in that position. Essentially, Bbinz has finally given up on the season. If he trades another roster player I'd say we'll know which way the Habs are leaning this year ... just heard Pierre Lebrun say that Montreal might be asking for a 2nd for Ilya Kovalchuk and if they don't get it they'll try to re-sign him for next year ... not sure who else would be available ... I read somewhere on the boards that Nate Thompson would be a player some teams wouldn't mind adding ... he's 55.4% * on faceoffs and I've seen him out there for important faceoffs ... you're right about shoring up the left side of the defence corps, though ... not sure what Bergevin has in mind for that ... Cheers. I was high on Kovo but starting to see again, that he's no leader or sparkplug. Signing him for even 700k will take away from building up the rookies. Sure, that may even be 15 goals on the cheap, but at what cost to the teams future.
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Post by UberCranky on Feb 19, 2020 15:51:36 GMT -5
the thread started out as "good on Berg for getting something" (upgrading a 4th to a 2nd and a conditional 4th) and now it's terrible that he made the trade? I don't get it. Trade for a second....on paper it's "good" but it averages that it gets you a bottom 6 defenseman or forward. IF we had a few LHD youngsters projected as top 4, then it would pain me to celebrate this as a "wise move".
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Post by frozone on Feb 19, 2020 16:58:16 GMT -5
The trade was very good. He converted a 4th rounder into a likely late 2nd rounder, for nothing, so that's good progress. Give me a pick 40 spots ahead of where I was and I'm in. Five more days to go. I'm disappointed that Bergevin is still in charge of the makeover. There's too much baggage there for him to make good decisions. What if someone offers a hell of a deal for Price? Or Weber? Do you really think he'd pull the trigger? I don't. Same thing with Danault or Gallagher. I think his own personal preferences and biases may have prevented him from making some good deals in the past. Unfortunately we will never know. Does anyone have specific or at least solid info to the summer of 2016. There was a lot of scuttlebutt that Edmonton and Montreal were dealing with Subban in the frame. I seem to recall that the ask was Draisaitl, Nurse and Edmonton's 1st (4th overall). One has to recall that Subban was at his best then, so had more value than he does today. Draisaitl had not broken out either. When I heard that at the time I was skeptical, because I liked Nurse and Edmonton's 4th overall would give the Habs a shot at Dubois. I thought it was too much to ask and Edmonton obviously thought so too. Salaries were also an issue. What if Chiarelli had responded with Hall and Edmonton's 1st? To me that was more of a fair value deal. Habs could have ended up with Tkachuk and Sergachev. So, instead of Weber and Drouin on the roster, we may have had Hall, Matt Tkachuk and Mikhael Sergachev. I realize that's complete speculation, but it is an interesting exercise to point out that asking for too much can have a price. Taking on Subban's salary would have been much easier with Hall going back the other way. Here's a couple links: Cult of Hockey30 ThoughtsIt sounds like Subban's salary was the main factor preventing the deal from happening.
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