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Post by folatre on Jul 1, 2020 17:59:45 GMT -5
Oh okay, I thought maybe it was related to Engels sharing yesterday a bunch of comments from players who requested anonymity in order to express their displeasure with returning to play under a cloud of uncertainty and risk.
For me it one thing to keep the name of player testing positive private (just call it upper or lower body injury) because one's health is a private matter. That I support. But if a player wants to opt out of Phase 3 & 4, I do not think that individual is entitled to the club/league running cover for them.
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 1, 2020 19:14:16 GMT -5
Cranky, going back to your point about a marginal player not daring to opt out of the return to play, I agree though with a caveat. If you are a fringe guy who believes it is 50/50 whether you can get a one-way NHL min contract (that by the way would not even kick in until December or January), would it be worth it to resume 2019-20 when injury (not just Covid) could strike and then you may not even be in a position to find a gig in Europe, which could start providing you a paycheque as early as September. Weise seems old school and he is likely not the type of guy to put self-interest ahead of the group, but it would not be irrational for a guy in his position to opt out and focus on finding a club in Europe. I don't see Europe opening up faster then Canada or US. The stealth spread ability of this virus is so pernicious, that a few people can cause mayhem in a city or town. Bring it to another level for city to city travel of a 40 to 50 people per team. Recipe for rapid re-infection. Then again, Russian politicoes were not that concerned about the virus....until it 2x4 them on the forehead. Until we have a proven vaccine, everything is a guess. Side note.....I use to be able to put a 5 year plan down in the late 90's and had a very high chance of following it. Now, I can't even plan two months ahead......
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Post by seventeen on Jul 1, 2020 20:53:43 GMT -5
Third, I'm more concerned about "new" hospitalizations and deaths then how many people tested positive. Something that is not easy to find. Yup. Best indicator of all, except where not everyone has equal access to medical care, like....the U.S.
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Post by PTH on Jul 2, 2020 1:21:11 GMT -5
It is not just the Covid threat. Ramping back up to play do or die playoff intensity hockey after four months off is a recipe for core muscular injuries. I really wonder about that. Also, for all the guys who ramp it up to the max for possibly all of 3 games, won't it feel like a terrible letdown ?
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Post by folatre on Jul 2, 2020 6:39:24 GMT -5
Yeah, for sure, the very real possibility of being off for four months, losing a short play-in series in the course of a week, and having another three or four months off before camp is probably not appealing to a lot of guys.
I hope the camp in July is run with an eye to helping the young guys improve. Since Phase 3 is not in a bubble, would the league allow Montreal to have players participating who would not subsequently be eligible to play against Pittsburgh? I am thinking, of course, of Romanov, Ylonen, Demchenko, and that other Russian kid with the long last name.
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 2, 2020 21:51:06 GMT -5
Third, I'm more concerned about "new" hospitalizations and deaths then how many people tested positive. Something that is not easy to find. Yup. Best indicator of all, except where not everyone has equal access to medical care, like....the U.S. The bastion of super duper "public healthcare" like Belgium, UK, Spain, Italy, Sweden and France have higher to far higher deaths per million then US. Or maybe we should look at our own very expensive, super duper health care that is so much better and kept deaths down....except we have more deaths per million then two bit medical healthcare countries like Armenia, Panama, North Macedonia, Moldova..... Just the facts.
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Post by seventeen on Jul 3, 2020 1:20:45 GMT -5
[The bastion of super duper "public healthcare" like Belgium, UK, Spain, Italy, Sweden and France have higher to far higher deaths per million then US. Like the weather in Calgary. If you don't like it, wait 5 minutes, or in this case, 2 weeks.
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Post by jkr on Jul 3, 2020 8:56:06 GMT -5
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 3, 2020 12:54:48 GMT -5
Absolutely. It has NOTHING to do if it's public or private health care, even if some in Canada want to crow about how "vastly superior" our"public" health care is to the US. This virus is about how much any given society is willing to do to contain it. Even an economocally broke country like Greece, who is second rate to us in terms of medical infrustructure and facilities, was willing to go on full lockdown and contained the virus much faster and better then us. Same for Portugal. Sweden is assumed to have THE best medical system on the planet....and look at their results. As for the US and their spiking numbers. Eventually, the virus will take it's toll if for nothing else then the enormous numbers of infected. It wont be anywhere near as bad as the original numbers or percentages because they were skewered by the lack of proper care for the most vulnarable. Look at Canada, 5500 from 8500 deaths are from seniors homes. If the exact same cycle happened now, it would be more like a thousand deaths given that we are better prepared and more knowledgable. It wont be as bad in the US as some are hoping....because of their politics. Nor should they crow while squating in glass houses. Unless of course they are Taiwanese.... Let's stick to the facts and reality to fight it, not dime store partisan politics.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 4, 2020 14:00:55 GMT -5
The stealth spread ability of this virus is so pernicious, that a few people can cause mayhem in a city or town. Bring it to another level for city to city travel of a 40 to 50 people per team. Recipe for rapid re-infection. If you've been following the news, Kingston now has 36 new cases of COVID-19 and that all stems from just ONE person ... she brought it back with her after an out-of-town visit (she did not self-quarantine upon return), then she went to work at a local nails salon, infected several of the staff, who infected several clients, who in turn, took the virus with them from the salon and now the city has been set back a couple of months ... two other salons have COVID-19 cases, as did my home golf course (which is why we both had to be tested - negative x2), and all of it is linked back to the original salon and ONE person ... as far as sports go, COVID-19 is surging in Florida and that's where MLB and the NBA want to get things going ... I don't know how much more proof the NHL needs, but there will be more positive tests coming ... I understand the 'bubble concept' but this should not be good news for the people of Toronto or Edmonton ... Cheers.
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 4, 2020 16:28:51 GMT -5
The stealth spread ability of this virus is so pernicious, that a few people can cause mayhem in a city or town. Bring it to another level for city to city travel of a 40 to 50 people per team. Recipe for rapid re-infection. If you've been following the news, Kingston now has 36 new cases of COVID-19 and that all stems from just ONE person ... she brought it back with her after an out-of-town visit (she did not self-quarantine upon return), then she went to work at a local nails salon, infected several of the staff, who infected several clients, who in turn, took the virus with them from the salon and now the city has been set back a couple of months ... two other salons have COVID-19 cases, as did my home golf course (which is why we both had to be tested - negative x2), and all of it is linked back to the original salon and ONE person ... as far as sports go, COVID-19 is surging in Florida and that's where MLB and the NBA want to get things going ... I don't know how much more proof the NHL needs, but there will be more positive tests coming ... I understand the 'bubble concept' but this should not be good news for the people of Toronto or Edmonton ... Cheers. Absolutely agree and absolutely true about how fast this virus spread. WAY BACK......in the Coronovirus thread I was concerned about it's "R0" being in the 3-4 range. There is simply no way to contain it UNLESS you have a society that is ready to be electronically monitored AND has an extreme level of social responsibility. I just came back from Costco and Home Depot. FORGET IT. Customers and staff, about half are now acting as if there is no such thing as a rampant virus. I'm hoping that there is already enough herd immunity built in that we are actually going to get a "lower" transmission rate and even far lower mortality rate. Even if only 30% of society has herd immunity, the infection rate can drop twice as much. In fact, if we have 70% herd immunity, the virus is gone. We would be down to isolated outbreaks. The upside is because we are retired, we can sit back and ride through by heavy isolation through all of this. Then it becomes a concern as to how bad we get hit economically. Checkbook Santa can not keep spending hundreds of billions of dollars on TOP of the 400 billion already spent with no economic consequences. We are recovering faster then the US, oil is up, 400 hundred billions have been poured into the economy, yet we have a 73 cent dollar even though it "should be" in the low 80's. I hope I'm wrong, but I we already saw a 68 cent dollar and see that as the norm. or lower, just around the corner.
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Post by folatre on Jul 4, 2020 18:19:20 GMT -5
I am not a baseball fan, but I recognize that David Price not playing this season is very big news for MLB.
I suppose the NHL would say the context is important. NHL players basically played a near-complete regular season and got paid accordingly. I am only guessing, but it could be there are plenty of baseball players with big bank accounts who think okay if I am only going to make 35-40 percent of my contract for 2020, screw it, it's not worth my time or the risk involved with all the traveling for the next five months.
Another difference in attitudes could relate to the fact that MLB players and owners do not have a formula for sharing revenues. Therefore, it could be that some players are figuring 2021 will be clean slate and we will not start next season owing money to the owners. NHL players cannot afford to think that way because they are going to get hammered by the 50/50 split.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 4, 2020 21:51:44 GMT -5
I put David Price's decision up because he's the first big star to officially put he and his family ahead of the business ... I'm interested in seeing if there's a ripple effect from this ... wouldn't blame any player for doing what Price did ... it'd be easier if you had the bucks to make a decision like that, granted, but he still opted to stay away ...
Cheers.
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Post by seventeen on Jul 5, 2020 1:45:20 GMT -5
The stealth spread ability of this virus is so pernicious, that a few people can cause mayhem in a city or town. Bring it to another level for city to city travel of a 40 to 50 people per team. Recipe for rapid re-infection. If you've been following the news, Kingston now has 36 new cases of COVID-19 and that all stems from just ONE person ... she brought it back with her after an out-of-town visit (she did not self-quarantine upon return), then she went to work at a local nails salon, infected several of the staff, who infected several clients, who in turn, took the virus with them from the salon and now the city has been set back a couple of months ... two other salons have COVID-19 cases, as did my home golf course (which is why we both had to be tested - negative x2), and all of it is linked back to the original salon and ONE person ... as far as sports go, COVID-19 is surging in Florida and that's where MLB and the NBA want to get things going ... I don't know how much more proof the NHL needs, but there will be more positive tests coming ... I understand the 'bubble concept' but this should not be good news for the people of Toronto or Edmonton ... Cheers. Advertising jingles foretelling the future: "Then she tells two people and they tell two people" "Only your hairdresser knows for sure" So true. Never trust your welfare to a stupid person. This is clear evidence, and U.S. citizens will be learning the same lesson to a much higher degree. Compound virus. As bad as compound interest is good.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 5, 2020 14:43:26 GMT -5
If you've been following the news, Kingston now has 36 new cases of COVID-19 and that all stems from just ONE person ... she brought it back with her after an out-of-town visit (she did not self-quarantine upon return), then she went to work at a local nails salon, infected several of the staff, who infected several clients, who in turn, took the virus with them from the salon and now the city has been set back a couple of months ... two other salons have COVID-19 cases, as did my home golf course (which is why we both had to be tested - negative x2), and all of it is linked back to the original salon and ONE person ... as far as sports go, COVID-19 is surging in Florida and that's where MLB and the NBA want to get things going ... I don't know how much more proof the NHL needs, but there will be more positive tests coming ... I understand the 'bubble concept' but this should not be good news for the people of Toronto or Edmonton ... Cheers. Advertising jingles foretelling the future: "Then she tells two people and they tell two people" "Only your hairdresser knows for sure" So true. Never trust your welfare to a stupid person. This is clear evidence, and U.S. citizens will be learning the same lesson to a much higher degree. Compound virus. As bad as compound interest is good. And Palmolive is a hand moisturizer ... seriously, no disrespect to our American brethren, but as an outsider looking in, the US people would be doing a lot better if they had the leadership in place to back them up ... Trump might be president, but he's no leader ... conversely, while I'm not a fan of Justin Trudeau, he has shown outstanding leadership amid the pandemic ... to that, I never knew who Bonny Henry was before, but I certainly do now, and she'd be perfect to chair any post-pandemic lessons-learned summit ... Doug Ford did not only show leadership, but he proved to be an outstanding team player, as well ... that said, I'm still not convinced that the NHL should keep moving forward with their tournament ... the people across the country, the folks of Toronto and Edmonton have worked extremely hard in keeping COVID-19 in check, and they don't deserve to be the epicentres of new outbreaks ... I'm not saying this will happen, Mur, only why give it a chance, eh ... Cheers.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 5, 2020 19:39:28 GMT -5
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Post by Skilly on Jul 5, 2020 20:10:38 GMT -5
Sweden’s numbers are like apples and oranges to other countries
Once there was community spread there they changed the way they tested for the virus. They stopped testing anyone with possible symptoms, like most other countries, and only focused on the vulnerable groups. It’s also the reason they never self isolated. They got the elderly and immune compromised out of the general population and were adapting to more of a herd immunity attempt amongst the rest of the population. Although the government there denies that was what they were trying, not closing stores and letting the healthy roam free speaks otherwise.
So Sweden’s numbers are skewed. As they weren’t recording or testing people who were sick but young and not in a high risk group
Most of these countries numbers are questionable .. I’d argue governments like Russia, China, and the smaller countries are either deliberately keeping numbers low, or just don’t have the capability to do it accurately
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Post by PTH on Jul 5, 2020 21:37:08 GMT -5
So Sweden’s numbers are skewed. As they weren’t recording or testing people who were sick but young and not in a high risk group Most of these countries numbers are questionable .. I’d argue governments like Russia, China, and the smaller countries are either deliberately keeping numbers low, or just don’t have the capability to do it accurately I'd argue that it's impossible to directly compare any 2 jurisdictions.... even Quebec and Ontario took different paths to testing, changing target groups at different points in time (ie, going from recently returned travelers as a core group to people who'd been exposed to confirmed cases, etc.)
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 5, 2020 22:42:17 GMT -5
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 6, 2020 10:24:17 GMT -5
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 6, 2020 13:10:19 GMT -5
So Sweden’s numbers are skewed. As they weren’t recording or testing people who were sick but young and not in a high risk group Most of these countries numbers are questionable .. I’d argue governments like Russia, China, and the smaller countries are either deliberately keeping numbers low, or just don’t have the capability to do it accurately I'd argue that it's impossible to directly compare any 2 jurisdictions.... even Quebec and Ontario took different paths to testing, changing target groups at different points in time (ie, going from recently returned travelers as a core group to people who'd been exposed to confirmed cases, etc.) For something as critical to the entire planet as a pandemic, the statistics are as skewered and unavailable as they an be. One case I know with absolute certainty is the one where a group of Greeks, I think it was 43, got infected in Egypt and Israel. In early MARCH. Yet Egypt, with 98 million, which any reasonable person would say with absolute certainly that it would be a very high risk area, they have yet to show any huge hit by the virus. Obviously their lucrative tourist business is far more important then as many trench graves as it takes. What reasonably intelligent person would believe that Egypt infected enough to pass the virus since early March, had 1,200 new cases yesterday and 63 deaths? It's more of "token" figures to show that it's not an issue in their country...so please dumb tourist, pile into buses and come see our rocks. Yea..... At least 2 or 3 times a day, I visit worldometers. I've downloaded their stats and manipulated them in Excel in every conceivable way. But of course, garbage in is garbage out. One of the interesting things that does come out is the immense number that some of these non Western countries "should" have but are not showing. Places like India, Bangladesh, Indonesia...they are either hiding 90% of the infection OR they are in for a hell of a delayed ride. Either way, I doubt we will know. Real stats can tell us tremendous amount we need to know about this virus, including how to fight it, yet, here we are. At this point and probably never change, it's 98% using stats for politics and 2% using stats to inform.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jul 6, 2020 13:54:03 GMT -5
I'd argue that it's impossible to directly compare any 2 jurisdictions.... even Quebec and Ontario took different paths to testing, changing target groups at different points in time (ie, going from recently returned travelers as a core group to people who'd been exposed to confirmed cases, etc.) For something as critical to the entire planet as a pandemic, the statistics are as skewered and unavailable as they an be. One case I know with absolute certainty is the one where a group of Greeks, I think it was 43, got infected in Egypt and Israel. In early MARCH. Yet Egypt, with 98 million, which any reasonable person would say with absolute certainly that it would be a very high risk area, they have yet to show any huge hit by the virus. Obviously their lucrative tourist business is far more important then as many trench graves as it takes. What reasonably intelligent person would believe that Egypt had 1,200 new cases yesterday and 63 deaths? It's more of "token" figures to show that it's not an issue in their country...so please dumb tourist, pile into buses and come see our rocks. Yea..... At least 2 or 3 times a day, I visit worldometers. I've downloaded their stats and manipulated them in Excel in every conceivable way. But of course, garbage in is garbage out. One of the interesting things that does come out is the immense number that some of these non Western countries "should" have but are not showing. Places like India, Bangladesh, Indonesia...they are either hiding 90% of the infection OR they are in for a hell of a delayed ride. Either way, I doubt we will know. Real stats can tell us tremendous amount we need to know about this virus, including how to fight it, yet, here we are. At this point and probably never change, it's 98% using stats for politics and 2% using stats to inform. The virus is very small, thousands fit on the head of a pin. You can’t see them or stop them. It’s like stopping dandelions on your lawn. You can get them all but unless ALL of your neighbors eliminate them and the highways and open fields eliminate them, they will find their way back. At least with weeds we have experience and chemicals discovered over the years. Like polio and Spanish flu we will discover vaccines and cures someday. This virus is bad and has an arsenal of tricks for spreading and delayed infections. For now we learn to be careful and live with it until a cure is developed. With pandemics, rioting, economics, politics and civil unrest, resurrecting September playoffs in empty stadiums to help Molson and players maintain million dollar salaries is not top priority. Counting deaths in Quebec, NEW jersey and Pakistan makes for Facebook fodder and not much else.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 6, 2020 17:01:01 GMT -5
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 6, 2020 17:53:18 GMT -5
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 6, 2020 18:22:59 GMT -5
So onward with the ClusterPuck Cup. Let the virus tag games begin......
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jul 9, 2020 14:53:10 GMT -5
So onward with the ClusterPuck Cup. Let the virus tag games begin...... playoffs in October? Why not just advance the year. Does it really matter if AD was 2020 years ago or 2019 years ago. just like Y2K, it didn't matter. Give Toronto a one year break on their missing the cup streak. Give Streit another tryout, low risk per Bergevin. Call the play-in playoffs per Molson. Add wasabi to the Cell Centre menu or let them eat cake. Play in front of empty stadiums but charge the faithful for printed tickets. Expression of confidence in Bergevin as highly respected if unsuccessful GM. If Chicago changes the name of Blackhawks out of respect for native Americans, change the name of Canadiens to Habitants to remember the oppression of General Wolfe against Montcalm and the evil English saleslady in Eatons. Sorry, just an idle rant during isolation due to a pretty bad flu.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 10, 2020 17:39:03 GMT -5
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Post by folatre on Jul 10, 2020 19:02:03 GMT -5
Yeah, it is an agreement crafted and accepted by two sides who have no choice but to operate according to damage-control logic.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 11, 2020 10:49:54 GMT -5
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 19, 2020 10:02:42 GMT -5
... a sign of the times ...
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