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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 11, 2020 17:34:27 GMT -5
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Post by seventeen on Jul 11, 2020 17:53:18 GMT -5
Hamonic is on the bottom of top 6 and teetering out of it. Let's see how much he gets after all this. I don't see a lot of teams lining up to pay 4 million for a 12 point 30 year old...but I could be wrong. We'll see what 'intangibles are worth.
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Post by seventeen on Jul 11, 2020 17:56:26 GMT -5
The league wont "discriminate", it will as simple as GMs offering 2 million for 4 years. Through my career as manager, it was rare that i fired outright anyone i didn't want on my team, i just waited for a downturn and laid them off. Never had anyone have enough to make a case. No doubt that given that Hamonic has gone public, he will do so again, but he hardly has a leg to stand on as a 12 point player in his 30's. "Youth movement" is a generic comeback and hard to argue. Not that the triggered hystericals wont make it an issue. Don't want him on the Habs even for a few million. I don't have recent data, but at the time he was traded he was not a good transition, advanced stats favourite.
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Post by jkr on Jul 11, 2020 18:29:18 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with Hamonic dropping out, especially after this explanation.
I think most of here agree this whole exercise is a dumb idea. Why are people miffed that a player has decided to pass? I wish more players would pass, then maybe the NHL would come to its senses.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 11, 2020 18:48:04 GMT -5
It would be interesting to know exactly who is brought, and who isn't. Do you bring the GM ? He doesn't actually need to be there, and maybe it's best for GM+ 3 or 4 staff to work elsewhere, rather than take up 5 spots for management. Physiotherapists ? How many ? Other medical personnel ? If someone gets mildly injured you want the right trainer. Equipment managers ? You want as few as possible, but some redundancy is needed in case you lose someone (covid, or other issues that can happen in real life). Will substitutions be allowed ? Say your 2 physiotherapists get covid or appendicitis and are sent home, can you replace them, or do you hope your "security" person has a secondary background in something useful ? This article is dated June 20, so I'm not sure if these numbers have been updated ... if we knew how many goaltenders the Habs want to carry we'd be able to do the math ... Expanded rosters will be set at 28 total skaters and an unlimited number of goaltenders. A total of 30 skaters and unlimited goaltenders will be allowed in training camp, though. Players on injured reserve will not count toward either of the limits.I'm trying my best to get into the spirit of the game but it's tough getting there ... on the players' side, the tournament is set up for a full-out sprint and clubs will need those expanded rosters ... however, they've also left an out for any players who don't feel comfortable taking the risk ... that's the personal side of things ... now I'm trying to understand the business side of the decision ... it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the NHL has factored a 'percentage of positive cases' into their planning, and so long as it doesn't exceed a specific percentage, then it's all-ahead-full with the NHLPA's okay ... I'd probably have felt differently a few years back, but like you, I really don't want to see the tournament get off the ground ... it doesn't matter to me if the owners don't make any money this year ... a lot of people have lost already because of COVID, and if the owners lose a few bucks I couldn't care less ... our priorities should be focused elsewhere ... Cheers.
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 11, 2020 19:34:05 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with Hamonic dropping out, especially after this explanation. I think most of here agree this whole exercise is a dumb idea. Why are people miffed that a player has decided to pass? I wish more players would pass, then maybe the NHL would come to its senses. If the entire league is done and gone, fine, bury the damn thing and move forward....BUT the owners AND the players are obviously doing it for the money and one of those who benefit will be doing so on other peoples back. If someone can come up with an article that says that Hamonic wont get his last paycheque, or is going to give back 30%-40%-50% or whatever is deemed that the league would of lost without out the tournament, then I'm fine with that. Right now, Hamonic is only looking after Hamonic so it's not like he's a hero. Many others have children or extenuating circumstance too and they are participating. He complains to be traded, he ditches the team because he has no future with them and he ditches the league while still taking a paycheque. Pretty much a zero. EDIT: I just read this....opting out would not be considered a breach of contract and the player will still be entitled to playoff money share and receive credit for the final quarterly pension. According to BC, they still have one final paycheques which I don't know if it will be paid, but that would add to the argument that he's benefiting on other peoples back.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jul 11, 2020 21:10:58 GMT -5
Habs have their first player opting out: Karl Alzner. All things considered, likely not too surprising.
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Post by folatre on Jul 11, 2020 21:15:43 GMT -5
The NHLPA voted to forego accepting the final paycheque of the 2019-20 season in order to start the process of paying back the owners the serious revenue shortfall that materialized due to the pandemic. Granted, the last paycheque only represented 1/13 of player compensation over the course of the 2019-20 season.
But in fairness to the players, almost 90 percent of the games were played this season and they only get paid during the regular season.
Is Hamonic not doing his part to provide "content" (play-in and Playoffs games for television audiences) for the industry in order to recoup some of the lost revenue and thus to make the future burden on players smaller? Well, here I agree with Cranky, he is not doing his small part as 1 of the more than 600 players called back to participate. But the deal signed off on by owners and players in a pandemic enshrines the right of players to opt out of returning to play, so I have a hard time feeling too sore about a decision that fits within the legal parameters set forth by both sides in the negotiation.
In terms of the relatively small amount of playoff money shares on the table, for me Hamonic should not accept the $20,000 USD that he is due in the event that Calgary loses in the play-in. Therefore, if in fact the league cannot legally deprive him on that share, he should make clear that he is donating that sum of money to a charitable cause and given Hamonic's track record of aiding underprivileged children, I imagine that is precisely what he will do.
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Post by PTH on Jul 11, 2020 21:24:37 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with Hamonic dropping out, especially after this explanation. I think most of here agree this whole exercise is a dumb idea. Why are people miffed that a player has decided to pass? I wish more players would pass, then maybe the NHL would come to its senses. Did it seem like I was miffed ? I think he has ample reason to drop out, and a lot of other guys do as well - if Domi opts out I won't think anything of it, even for a second. Even if Price wanted out only because he wanted to be cautious about his family, I wouldn't blame him. This is a worldwide pandemic and a needless tournament. Heck, even if a topline player on a contender dropped out, I'd understand.
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Post by folatre on Jul 11, 2020 21:24:47 GMT -5
As you say NW, this is not a shock wave through the organization. Though given that he is still owed $5 million in real money on his contract, I would hope that Alzner arrived at this decision with a subtle push from management privately saying hey Karl look we want to see some kids in camp and since you would not be in the plans for the games against the Penguins, it would be totally cool if you enjoy the BC summer and report in mid-November for 2020-21.
If management wanted Alzner to be there right now in Phase 3 and he said no thanks after having collected $1.5 million on July 1 and still having another $5 million on his contract, I would be a little miffed.
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Post by PTH on Jul 11, 2020 21:25:29 GMT -5
The league wont "discriminate", it will as simple as GMs offering 2 million for 4 years. Through my career as manager, it was rare that i fired outright anyone i didn't want on my team, i just waited for a downturn and laid them off. Never had anyone have enough to make a case. In the public sector, they'll just give someone an office and no work. Eventually, they just leave.
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 11, 2020 22:40:56 GMT -5
Habs have their first player opting out: Karl Alzner. All things considered, likely not too surprising. And....his career is done... Worse signing in recent history.
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 11, 2020 23:07:33 GMT -5
The league wont "discriminate", it will as simple as GMs offering 2 million for 4 years. Through my career as manager, it was rare that i fired outright anyone i didn't want on my team, i just waited for a downturn and laid them off. Never had anyone have enough to make a case. In the public sector, they'll just give someone an office and no work. Eventually, they just leave. I have a problem with that. Personal responsibility and work ethic shouldn't be hiding behind a collective. It sounds harsh but one can't ignore a problem case. I had a supervisor with a hell of a drinking problem. I tried and I tried, for YEARS to help him...but kept getting the same results. One Monday morning he comes in and 10 minutes later, he loses a finger. He hits a stock pile with the fork lift, a piece comes flying off and he stuck his fingers THROUGH the safety cage to stop it. Slices it off. I went home at 6 am to get some sleep, at 8 am I got a call from my wife that they are taking him and his finger to the hospital. Not only did he lose a finger, he cost me 3 years of triple WCB rate. The way WCB works is that they have a mill rate for the industry and reductions for clean records. One accident and back to the mill rate for 3-4 years. Literally tens of thousands more per year. They investigated, no fault of ours and when I complained to WCB that he's got drinking problems and I am trying to help him, they simply answered that it was my fault I kept him on. So yes, on the surface, firing people sounds like evil corporate monsters shattering the poor workers dreams....but on that day, my lack of action could of cost a life. In his post binge muddled thinking, he could of decided to get out of the cage and...get decapitated.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 12, 2020 10:14:19 GMT -5
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Post by PTH on Jul 12, 2020 10:25:41 GMT -5
In the public sector, they'll just give someone an office and no work. Eventually, they just leave. I have a problem with that. Personal responsibility and work ethic shouldn't be hiding behind a collective. Then again, in a bureaucracy, sometimes it's not really a problem case: just someone the boss can't figure out how to use. And since their budget isn't really "theirs", it's easy to see it as an organization problem, not a "me" problem. And firing isn't frequent or easy in a shortstaffed government role, moreso when the employees haven't do anything wrong like in your example. And I've seen bad bosses do it over and over - try and shoehorn someone into a role, if it's not a fit, toss them onto a shelf and let them get bored, rather than work with them to find how they can contribute. I saw someone stay 6 months with absolutely nothing to do. Zilch. That same boss kind of did the same to me - throw me into a job with no defined tasks, I had a couple of team leaders throwing me random tasks but I had no defined role. No one sticks around in those circumstances, which I think was the whole point. I did discover if you copy-paste newspaper articles into notepad, it doesn't look like you're reading the paper.
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Post by PTH on Jul 12, 2020 10:27:02 GMT -5
So the announcement that the deadline for deciding was Monday was kind of BS ?
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Post by folatre on Jul 12, 2020 10:50:45 GMT -5
Who knows. It could be the league is granting special dispensation to set aside the deadline and continue discussions with medical experts in the cases that are truly health related. I believe Kakko and Stralman would likewise be in this situation, though I actually have no idea if those guys have reported to their respective training camps.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jul 12, 2020 10:54:22 GMT -5
So, if he does end up joining the team in ten days, he will miss most of the camp as the team will have to be in their bubble in TO by around the 26th if I recall.
Do the right thing and just keep him home safe and sound. Not worth the extra health risk. Some things are far more important than a brand of entertainment in front of no fans.
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Post by franko on Jul 12, 2020 11:20:20 GMT -5
I'd be "ordering" Alzner and the rest of the bubble-boys to play, it may be their only/last chance in the SC playoffs . . . "it's an honour to play".
I know, I know . . . "anything can happen in the playoffs" π
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 12, 2020 13:05:18 GMT -5
I'd be "ordering" Alzner and the rest of the bubble-boys to play, it may be their only/last chance in the SC playoffs . . . "it's an honour to play". I know, I know . . . "anything can happen in the playoffs" π You can't order them to play as per their collective agreement. So the next best thing is to get rid of them or simply not give them a contract. Alzner is done in the league, Hamonic may not be done, but as a GM, he's on my suspect list and definetly questionable "team dedication".
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jul 12, 2020 13:09:26 GMT -5
So, if he does end up joining the team in ten days, he will miss most of the camp as the team will have to be in their bubble in TO by around the 26th if I recall. Do the right thing and just keep him home safe and sound. Not worth the extra health risk. Some things are far more important than a brand of entertainment in front of no fans. first place prize, ten days in Toronto. Second place, twenty days in Toronto.
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Post by jkr on Jul 12, 2020 13:23:22 GMT -5
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 12, 2020 13:25:47 GMT -5
I have a problem with that. Personal responsibility and work ethic shouldn't be hiding behind a collective. Then again, in a bureaucracy, sometimes it's not really a problem case: just someone the boss can't figure out how to use. And since their budget isn't really "theirs", it's easy to see it as an organization problem, not a "me" problem. And firing isn't frequent or easy in a shortstaffed government role, moreso when the employees haven't do anything wrong like in your example. And I've seen bad bosses do it over and over - try and shoehorn someone into a role, if it's not a fit, toss them onto a shelf and let them get bored, rather than work with them to find how they can contribute. I saw someone stay 6 months with absolutely nothing to do. Zilch. That same boss kind of did the same to me - throw me into a job with no defined tasks, I had a couple of team leaders throwing me random tasks but I had no defined role. No one sticks around in those circumstances, which I think was the whole point. I did discover if you copy-paste newspaper articles into notepad, it doesn't look like you're reading the paper. All that comes under "bad management" which is far higher level of damage to the company/organization then any "bad" employee. The only upside is that in the private sector, bad managers/ supervisors get picked off faster. I can't comment from experience but in government jobs, there may be a rise amongst the rank to a level of...incompetence. In either case, the level of competemce always, ALWAYS starts at the top, or close to the top and trickles down through the organization. See the Habs for proof of the above.
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Post by BadCompany on Jul 12, 2020 13:36:09 GMT -5
If the entire league is done and gone, fine, bury the damn thing and move forward....BUT the owners AND the players are obviously doing it for the money and one of those who benefit will be doing so on other peoples back. If someone can come up with an article that says that Hamonic wont get his last paycheque, or is going to give back 30%-40%-50% or whatever is deemed that the league would of lost without out the tournament, then I'm fine with that. Right now, Hamonic is only looking after Hamonic so it's not like he's a hero. Many others have children or extenuating circumstance too and they are participating. He complains to be traded, he ditches the team because he has no future with them and he ditches the league while still taking a paycheque. Pretty much a zero. EDIT: I just read this....opting out would not be considered a breach of contract and the player will still be entitled to playoff money share and receive credit for the final quarterly pension. According to BC, they still have one final paycheques which I don't know if it will be paid, but that would add to the argument that he's benefiting on other peoples back. Awww, look at you getting all socialist in your old age, worried about the collective... Hamonic, and others, are merely doing what all of us do in Western society. Which is to look out for Number One. And if that means the way I benefit is done on the back's of others, well then so be it. Sucks to be them for not working the system like I did. It is, after all, why we look for every possible loophole when it comes to filing our taxes, is it not? Taxes go to the collective, but I want that money for me. It's also why companies fight for government subsidies, and workers fight for that extra week's vacation. It's why we have unemployment leave, sick leave, maternity leave, it's why Geoff Molson charges exorbitant prices for tickets, or why Sydney Crosby and Connor McDavid demand and get huge salaries. Every one of those things comes at somebody else's expense. Either in the form of higher taxes or less services, extra work for those who have to cover for an absent employee, more money for Geoffie at the expense of the fans, or less money for a 2nd or 3rd liner in a salary cap world. Freak them, is the attitude, I got mine. This is no different, and it is indeed the capitalist way. How can I make this work for me? Now this isn't to denigrate Hamonic - he has legitimate reasons for not wanting to play and the rest of his union fairly negotiated the right for him to opt out. He is merely taking advantage of the situation in the same way we all take advantage of the system. Certainly in this culture anyways (not in all). Individualism, exceptionalism, muh rights, and all that.
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Post by BadCompany on Jul 12, 2020 13:48:13 GMT -5
Habs have their first player opting out: Karl Alzner. All things considered, likely not too surprising. I gotta say, I'm a little surprised. With Romanov not being allowed to play Alzner was what? 4th on the left-d depth chart? After Mete, Chiarot, and Kulak? Maybe Leskinen is ahead of him, but I haven't seen anything about Leskinen being in town, and I don't think he came over at the same time as the other Finns. Ouellet? Honestly, from what I saw of Alzner at training camp last year, during the few AHL games I saw, and in his brief call-up after the trade deadline, I don't think Ouellet had much of a leg up on Alzner, if any at all. Alzner's big problem was his big cap hit, not his ability to be a 6th or 7th defenseman on this team. So I thought for sure he'd be in camp, and raring to go. If somebody goes down - and if the team actually beats Pittsburgh and goes on a run that is almost a certainty, that somebody will go down - he'd be pretty close to getting a regular spot in the lineup. If he gets a spot in the lineup, and plays adequately, he might be able to work his way back into the NHL. Probably not in Montreal, but geez, Nashville played Jarred Tinordi extensively down the stretch. Would they prefer Alzner, especially if they could get him in a bad-contract-for-bad-contract swap? Say Alzner for Turris? If I was Karl Alzner, this would be the only possible option I see open to me to getting back into the NHL. Granted, it's a long shot, but not playing would, I think, kill any shot. You can't prove you can play if you don't play, right? On the other hand, maybe he has decided to retire, and spent the summer drinking beer and eating pizza instead of staying in shape. But that would mean he's leaving over $6 million on the table, which is a lot for anybody. Maybe he didn't think hockey was coming back, and he thought he still had more time to work off the aforementioned beer and pizza before 2020-21 started. Maybe he's just accepted his AHL status and is going to mail it in for the next couple of seasons (though that would go against everything we've been led to believe Karl Alzner is). Or maybe he actually has some legitimate health reasons for not playing. That's probably the truth, but where is the fun in that?
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Post by BadCompany on Jul 12, 2020 13:53:49 GMT -5
Who knows. It could be the league is granting special dispensation to set aside the deadline and continue discussions with medical experts in the cases that are truly health related. I believe Kakko and Stralman would likewise be in this situation, though I actually have no idea if those guys have reported to their respective training camps. Or maybe the Habs would be one roster player short, if Domi opts out? I think the bigger question, which I asked on Twitter, is if Domi opts out does that mean he's going to opt out of next season as well? It's supposed to start November 1st, which is what, 3.5 months away? Does anybody think the situation is going to be substantially better then, than it is now? Which would be safer? Playing in the quarantined and relatively clean cities of Toronto and Edmonton, or making that always fun road trip to Tampa, Miami, and Phoenix? Is he going to skip games against the Dallas Stars? How about games against the California teams? If he doesn't play now, I don't see how he can possibly play in November.
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Post by franko on Jul 12, 2020 14:20:44 GMT -5
I'd be "ordering" Alzner and the rest of the bubble-boys to play, it may be their only/last chance in the SC playoffs . . . "it's an honour to play". I know, I know . . . "anything can happen in the playoffs" π You can't order them to play as per their collective agreement. Nah I didn't mean "order command order", I meant (speaking only about the Habs) put the lesser lights on the roster and allow them top play. If there isn't a Cup run in the offing, why not give them their shot at playoff glory, a story for the grandkids.
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Post by franko on Jul 12, 2020 14:22:47 GMT -5
You really need to ask? [/rhetorical question]
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Post by folatre on Jul 12, 2020 14:42:37 GMT -5
Good point, BC. I have no idea how from a health standpoint Domi will be safe enough in November if the situation now represents an unacceptable level of risk for him.
Maybe there is more than one factor driving the uncertainty about what he should do. Pat Brisson may be telling him listen Max if God forbid you get really sick and do not make a full recovery your financial future is basically unprotected (i.e. you have no contract). If Domi had his signature on a fresh 4 year/$23 million dollar contract, the people close to him advising him on this decision may be a little less apprehensive.
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 12, 2020 15:16:46 GMT -5
Awww, look at you getting all socialist in your old age, worried about the collective... I'm flexible that way depending on what's in it for me. Wait....you said that.... Fine, Hamonic can and will do whatever is good for Hamonic. i can and will hold it against him and so should any smart GM who may look at him and a future contract. What i don't want to hear or buy is the whining about him doing it for his "family". The only real applied metric is what's good for him....should also apply for a teams position. Good for the goose, the gander and the fishnet stocking thingy...
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