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Post by seventeen on Jul 30, 2020 11:58:11 GMT -5
I have harped on Bergevin's narcissism on several occasions and if you put any credence on that aspect of his personality, the ice time certain players get seems to correlate. The guys we consider 'fringe' often seem to get more ice time than most of us think they deserve. Weal falls into that category. Found wanting on 3 other teams, he plays a larger role in Montreal. His career stats are 69 points in 218 games (.32 ppg). That's slightly better than a 4th liner perhaps but not quite a 3rd liner? Which would be ok if he were a solid defensive player, which he isn't. I think that shows why 3 teams gave up on him. He's a tweener and there are better solutions out there, except perhaps in Montreal. For comparison, Lehkonen's stats are .37 ppg, but he is an excellent defensive player and a terrific penalty killer. He is 25 so probably is not going to improve any more, but Weal is 28 and definitely isn't getting any better. It boggles the mind why he played more than Kotka against TO. Maybe it was just luck as Julien seemed determined to play Domi a lot and Weal happened to be on that line.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jul 30, 2020 12:08:31 GMT -5
I have harped on Bergevin's narcissism on several occasions and if you put any credence on that aspect of his personality, the ice time certain players get seems to correlate. The guys we consider 'fringe' often seem to get more ice time than most of us think they deserve. Weal falls into that category. Found wanting on 3 other teams, he plays a larger role in Montreal. His career stats are 69 points in 218 games (.32 ppg). That's slightly better than a 4th liner perhaps but not quite a 3rd liner? Which would be ok if he were a solid defensive player, which he isn't. I think that shows why 3 teams gave up on him. He's a tweener and there are better solutions out there, except perhaps in Montreal. For comparison, Lehkonen's stats are .37 ppg, but he is an excellent defensive player and a terrific penalty killer. He is 25 so probably is not going to improve any more, but Weal is 28 and definitely isn't getting any better. It boggles the mind why he played more than Kotka against TO. Maybe it was just luck as Julien seemed determined to play Domi a lot and Weal happened to be on that line. I've been saying this for a long time... MB likes guys that remind him of him... how many 5/6 journeymen defensemen have been in the top 4 of the habs under MB last 5 years? Too many...
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Post by Willie Dog on Jul 30, 2020 12:10:51 GMT -5
Nobody: .... Julien: .... we need more Weal on the power-play. ---------- Having said all that... Jordan Weal wasn't the problem on the power-play. The system was. Anyways... * Suzuki and Weise, I thought, were our best forwards. Which says something. If Weise had hands we're talking tie game. Of course if Weise had hands he wouldn't be Weise. * * I thought Weber was our best defenseman. * Speaking of speed, rumors of J esperi Kotkaniemi's improved speed were greatly exaggerated. * Price was okay, I thought. Rebound control wasn't great, but the defense should have been there.
Sure, I'll debate you on the abovd points. We've had these discussions and I believe Steve Valiquette's research confirms that the best PP's are those that execute passes across the Royal Road. So who do we put out? Jordan Weal. You made some good points about him (I'd trade him, if there was anyone interested) but the simple fact is that he shouldn't be out there as his 5 giant points in oodles of PP time prove. The best passers on the team are Drouin, Kotkaniemi and Suzuki. Drouin is not a fan of dirty areas, so that leaves me with Suzuki and KK. They should both be on the first PP. Weber should not be on the PP at all. I don't care about his shot. Sure he gets a few PP goals, but how many do we miss out on because he can't pass the puck well enough? The PP percentage confirms it. Suzuki, on his assist, shows he can create passing space and then take advantage of it. Kotka made half a dozen superlative passes last night, several of which many people missed. He broke down defenses (ok, ok, I know it was the Leafs), drew an extra guy to him and found the open man. Our second goal was completely due to him. With regard to his speed, I think he is faster. And he's still filling out, IMO. I agree that Dale Weise was one of our better forwards, but stop there and think about it. Dale Weise was more impressive than Tatar, Danault, Drouin, Domi and a few other guys. Dale Weise. I sense a problem. Weber, our best defenseman. That's another problem, of course, but more likely it's another Julien creation. Weber played 24 minutes, much more than any other guy. Why" Who the hell knows? Getting the captain into game shape ASAP? Figuring out Julien is getting more and more difficult. He is just so set in his ways. Kotka was quite possibly the best Hab forward on the ice yesterday and got 13 minutes. That's the way to compliment the kid and give him oodles of confidence, Claude. If he starts putting up points, you better cut his ice time so he doesn't get too big for his britches. Weal played 3 minutes more than KK. Meet Jordan Weal the twenty eight year old, who is the future of the Habs franchise. Price? All I can say is .826. Sheesh. These videos explain what your saying 17 www.habseyesontheprize.com/2020/7/29/21346157/nick-suzuki-jesperi-kotkaniemi-dazzled-in-dull-performance-micro-analysis-video-canadiens-centres
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 30, 2020 17:10:26 GMT -5
I was watching the Kk and Suzuki video, I came across this one.
Soooo.....watch this video and it talks EXACTLY why I had my panties in a knot in the Laffs game.
MOVEMENT.......waiting around or slowing down simply lets the opposition read and adjust. Lack of MOVEMENT is what hurts on the powerplay and zone penetration. At the NHL level, you are always in motion. ALWAYS. It's as simple one is either offense or defense. There is nothing in between.
MOVE THOSE DAMN FEET
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Post by seventeen on Jul 30, 2020 20:05:37 GMT -5
So why doesn't he move more? It has to come down to willpower and desire, no? You can't coach that, I don't think.
He doesn't have to be fast all the time, either. Changes in pace throw off defenders really well, but they have to have a point of reference. Like the 99 mph pitcher who throws a 78 mph change-up. The change in speed throws off the hitter. but you have to throw those 99 mph fastballs to set up the change-up. Most of the time, Drouin should be moving and forcing defenders back. But that takes effort and work. Does he have it in him? He's 25. You've usually figured it out by that age.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jul 30, 2020 21:54:53 GMT -5
So why doesn't he move more? It has to come down to willpower and desire, no? You can't coach that, I don't think. He doesn't have to be fast all the time, either. Changes in pace throw off defenders really well, but they have to have a point of reference. Like the 99 mph pitcher who throws a 78 mph change-up. The change in speed throws off the hitter. but you have to throw those 99 mph fastballs to set up the change-up. Most of the time, Drouin should be moving and forcing defenders back. But that takes effort and work. Does he have it in him? He's 25. You've usually figured it out by that age. If he hasnt clued in by 25, he'll never clue in, he got a nice fat unearned contract from MB, he's doing McDonalds commercials... why work hard... 33 million 6 year contract at age of 22 when you haven't accomplished anything in the nhl... way to go MB... You can complain about Carey's contract but he earned it at least...
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Post by folatre on Jul 30, 2020 22:02:12 GMT -5
Who knows with Drouin. He was awful and disengaged in the preseason back in September but somehow came out of the gate playing good hockey. Likewise, his 2018-19 was characterized by hard to understand highs and lows.
I think he loves hockey but somehow when things are not going his way he does not fall back on taking care of the basics and the small details.
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 30, 2020 22:35:46 GMT -5
Part of the Weal deal is that he does work hard and in constant motion. He may not have elite skills, but he does earn his keep by constantly trying to be part of the play.
Five points in a trillion minutes on the power play tells us his tool belt is holding tweezers, but from a coaching perspective, do you put a high talent like Drouin that will put in a mediocre effort versus someone who works hard? From our perspective, in our minds, talent should always be on the ice, so we question Juliens decisions, but does he really have a choice?
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 30, 2020 22:45:09 GMT -5
So why doesn't he move more? It has to come down to willpower and desire, no? You can't coach that, I don't think. He doesn't have to be fast all the time, either. Changes in pace throw off defenders really well, but they have to have a point of reference. Like the 99 mph pitcher who throws a 78 mph change-up. The change in speed throws off the hitter. but you have to throw those 99 mph fastballs to set up the change-up. Most of the time, Drouin should be moving and forcing defenders back. But that takes effort and work. Does he have it in him? He's 25. You've usually figured it out by that age. It doesn't take a lot of effort to draw defenders to him. But if defenders know he wont move his lazy ass, they can position themselves were THEY don't have to expand much effort AND transition to offence. Look at the 6 power plays we had. Time and again, not only Drouin, but our entire team was floating at the blue line and the Laffs were standing us up. If I was coaching, I would bag skate them to drill into their heads that there is no ice grazing in the NHL....
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Post by BadCompany on Jul 31, 2020 7:15:49 GMT -5
Look at the 6 power plays we had. Time and again, not only Drouin, but our entire team was floating at the blue line and the Laffs were standing us up. In my great humbleness, perhaps the greatest humbleness the world has ever seen, I offer the following two solutions, both designed to back defenders off the Blue Wall; 1) Give the puck to Paul Byron. "Whaaa?" you say? It solves the problem we have both identified, me with greater humbleness than you. Which is, they hit a stacked blueline when trying to break into the zone on a power-play, and everybody is standing still. Byron, with his elite speed, has two options as he hits the blueline at full tilt; if the blueline is stacked, he simply chips it by the line and beats everyone to the corner. If the opponent backs off the blueline - or at least the defensemen do - he has gaps with which to break in. His straight line speed will beat anybody in a short sprint to open ice. 2) Timed center-ice dump in from Weber. This one takes coaching and practice (ha!) but I think it could be done. The play is simple enough, but it takes timing. Nowadays teams will let you skate to center ice with the puck as they stack the blueline. It's why we see all those back passes right around there, because that's when the puck carrier starts to hit the trap. Sooo... four guys head up the ice at full speed, followed by Weber carrying the puck. Sort of like the Flying V of lore. If you time it right your four guys hit their blueline just as Weber blasts it in from center ice. Your four guys are going full speed, so they should be able to beat anybody to the puck, especially if they know which corner it is going in before hand (Weber just has to yell it out before shooting). You can even use the aforementioned Byron just for this if you want. Every once in a while he can blast one at the goalie, just to keep him in the crease and to keep him from stopping the rim-arounds. We've all seen dump ins before, but they usually aren't timed - instead you've got four guys cruising at the blueline who only turn and go full speed AFTER the dump in has happened. If you've got four guys crossing the blue line at full speed at the same time as the puck they got a step on the defensive team. If they back off that opens the blueline, Weber simply yells "break" and crosses the blue line himself with the puck. Eazy-peazy, lemon-squeezy. And hey, if it doesn't work, there is always Jordan Weal...
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 31, 2020 8:32:48 GMT -5
Well.....if i had the money, after the very, very hostile takeover by moi, seriously hostile to save MY Habs, err, OUR Habs, i would consider putting that very, very, very humble guy as assistant coach. If does a good job on polishing the McLaren, maybe head coach. (Whaaat?)
I'm still wondering why Muller is breathing in the same space as the Habs. What exactly has he done in the century he has been there? Any gap mouth idiot can fail, but how hard is it to teach the basics?
What we have now is a team that can't figure out that standing still or "floating", waiting to unfold that brilliant power play plan means zippo if they can't even get into the opposing zone.
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Post by Skilly on Jul 31, 2020 11:02:30 GMT -5
Look at the 6 power plays we had. Time and again, not only Drouin, but our entire team was floating at the blue line and the Laffs were standing us up. In my great humbleness, perhaps the greatest humbleness the world has ever seen, I offer the following two solutions, both designed to back defenders off the Blue Wall; 1) Give the puck to Paul Byron. "Whaaa?" you say? It solves the problem we have both identified, me with greater humbleness than you. Which is, they hit a stacked blueline when trying to break into the zone on a power-play, and everybody is standing still. Byron, with his elite speed, has two options as he hits the blueline at full tilt; if the blueline is stacked, he simply chips it by the line and beats everyone to the corner. If the opponent backs off the blueline - or at least the defensemen do - he has gaps with which to break in. His straight line speed will beat anybody in a short sprint to open ice. 2) Timed center-ice dump in from Weber. This one takes coaching and practice (ha!) but I think it could be done. The play is simple enough, but it takes timing. Nowadays teams will let you skate to center ice with the puck as they stack the blueline. It's why we see all those back passes right around there, because that's when the puck carrier starts to hit the trap. Sooo... four guys head up the ice at full speed, followed by Weber carrying the puck. Sort of like the Flying V of lore. If you time it right your four guys hit their blueline just as Weber blasts it in from center ice. Your four guys are going full speed, so they should be able to beat anybody to the puck, especially if they know which corner it is going in before hand (Weber just has to yell it out before shooting). You can even use the aforementioned Byron just for this if you want. Every once in a while he can blast one at the goalie, just to keep him in the crease and to keep him from stopping the rim-arounds. We've all seen dump ins before, but they usually aren't timed - instead you've got four guys cruising at the blueline who only turn and go full speed AFTER the dump in has happened. If you've got four guys crossing the blue line at full speed at the same time as the puck they got a step on the defensive team. If they back off that opens the blueline, Weber simply yells "break" and crosses the blue line himself with the puck. Eazy-peazy, lemon-squeezy. And hey, if it doesn't work, there is always Jordan Weal... There is a way easier solution. Fire Muller , hire someone that can coach a powerplay
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Post by Tankdriver on Jul 31, 2020 11:42:49 GMT -5
Or get better players? Ones that can score 40 goals a year and actually shoot the puck? Hell I will take a 30 goal guy. Yes Gallagher scored over 30 but he is a garbage goal guy.
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Post by seventeen on Jul 31, 2020 13:19:03 GMT -5
As Suzuki showed, you have to be able to pass to break down a PK. So who do we have who can pass AND shoot? Petry, KK, Suzuki (though the shot needs more work), Tatar, Gallagher. That's pretty well it until some kids show up. Heck, as BC stated, maybe even Byron. Personally I don't put a lot of emphasis on PP systems. You have a man advantage so the 'breaking down the defense' part is already accomplished. After that, it's creativity and skill, namely, personnel. We have too many guys who hit the goalie on the crest. Caufield will help. Romanov will help. Brook can probably help. Lafreniere will definitely help (ok, I'm getting ahead of myself).
A fire hydrant can run a PP if the personnel is good enough. It's about time and space, as it always is, and good players know how to create both.
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Post by UberCranky on Jul 31, 2020 14:11:42 GMT -5
2) Timed center-ice dump in from Weber. This one takes coaching and practice (ha!) but I think it could be done. The play is simple enough, but it takes timing. Nowadays teams will let you skate to center ice with the puck as they stack the blueline. It's why we see all those back passes right around there, because that's when the puck carrier starts to hit the trap. Sooo... four guys head up the ice at full speed, followed by Weber carrying the puck. Sort of like the Flying V of lore. If you time it right your four guys hit their blueline just as Weber blasts it in from center ice. Your four guys are going full speed, so they should be able to beat anybody to the puck, especially if they know which corner it is going in before hand (Weber just has to yell it out before shooting). You can even use the aforementioned Byron just for this if you want. Every once in a while he can blast one at the goalie, just to keep him in the crease and to keep him from stopping the rim-arounds. We've all seen dump ins before, but they usually aren't timed - instead you've got four guys cruising at the blueline who only turn and go full speed AFTER the dump in has happened. If you've got four guys crossing the blue line at full speed at the same time as the puck they got a step on the defensive team. If they back off that opens the blueline, Weber simply yells "break" and crosses the blue line himself with the puck. I've given greater thought to this, because on very rare occasions, I have spare thoughts...... What's wrong with a man-mountain just heading for the corner with a defensman under his arm? I always wondered why on earth did Beaulieu, my favorite failure, why on earth did he break into the zone, travel 20 feet in, draw a defender and then desperately look for a player to pass back, not forward, but back too. THEN he skated back to get into position. Was there a doggy leash on him not to go further? It makes no sense to me to stop arbitrarily at a certain point. He had the elite speed to just push the entire defense back to their red line and then choose to fire at the net, pass, drag the puck, play backagammon in their zone, any number of options that were smarter then worthless mini vacations that didn't really break down their defense. All he did was get within the inner limits of the right wing forward, not really drawing their entire unit out of position. Most often, actually, almost always, the pass across was intercepted by the opposing center or left winger. So we come to the main mountain question. If Weber/Petry has the puck and has no good options, it's his god given right to keep steaming ahead, forcing at least one defenseman to try to stop him. That action alone, whichever side the defenseman is coming from, that created a space BEHIND the defenseman. Shirley anyone not named Shirley can skate to that open area. THAT forces the forward to come back to cover our forward. Otherwise, our forward gets open shot at hitting the goalies crest. "But what happens if one of the forwards take him Mr Spare Thoughts?" And? We now have TWO forwards that are free to push in. TWO. Unless of course they are more interested in that green patch in their ice grazing. There all kinds of permutation that players with something more then Ataris for brains can execute. They don't have to be superstars or highly trained in an executing intricate, delicate ballet moves. They simply have to understand the if-then that I'm sure was taught to them in junior hockey. Heck, after the basics, they can pretend they are following a strategy. That's too many thought...now I rest.
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Post by Skilly on Aug 2, 2020 9:40:00 GMT -5
As Suzuki showed, you have to be able to pass to break down a PK. So who do we have who can pass AND shoot? Petry, KK, Suzuki (though the shot needs more work), Tatar, Gallagher. That's pretty well it until some kids show up. Heck, as BC stated, maybe even Byron. Personally I don't put a lot of emphasis on PP systems. You have a man advantage so the 'breaking down the defense' part is already accomplished. After that, it's creativity and skill, namely, personnel. We have too many guys who hit the goalie on the crest. Caufield will help. Romanov will help. Brook can probably help. Lafreniere will definitely help (ok, I'm getting ahead of myself). A fire hydrant can run a PP if the personnel is good enough. It's about time and space, as it always is, and good players know how to create both. So if we have THAT many that can pass and shoot (6 in your opinion) then why is the PP terrible? .... ... Mr Muller, the unemployment line is a calling
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Post by seventeen on Aug 2, 2020 11:50:14 GMT -5
It's actually not that many. And to answer your question, when was the last time those guys played together as one unit? Ever? This is a topic that can go on for a long time as it's not black and white. Not all 5 guys have to be great passers. The finisher who plugs up the goalie's vision doesn't have to be. When we had Markov the PP was good. Funny how one guy can make such a difference.
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