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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Sept 9, 2020 21:18:36 GMT -5
Something to keep in mind. Great find. I didn’t know this.
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Post by folatre on Sept 9, 2020 21:35:16 GMT -5
I like Domi and frankly would rather move a couple other small wingers off the roster rather than him. But this graphic is a little odd because Domi is being compared with random forwards who are vastly different ages and some of whom are centres while others are wingers. It is also slightly cagey (I'm not criticizing PTH) because Domi did not really outproduce anyone in the graphic in the chosen two-year window, let alone in their careers.
In the two-year window used, the following was the point per game breakdown: .758 Domi .753 Laine .724 Dubois .820 Couture .774 Pacioretty .815 Radulov
In their careers: .669 Domi .810 Laine .675 Dubois .764 Couture .726 Pacioretty .756 Radulov
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Post by habsorbed on Sept 10, 2020 0:37:47 GMT -5
The stats suggest he is in elite company. But it is a short period of 2 years in which Domi had one tremendous year. So which iOS the real Domi? And Mb has to ask himself the question "What do I think Domi will be, and how much can I get for him now, particularly if others think Domi is in the same league as Dubois, Laine, etc?"
So I'd be shopping him to see if any gms are that high on Domi. I don't think when the dust settles 4 or 5 years from now that Domi will be in the same league.
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Post by PTH on Sept 10, 2020 2:42:48 GMT -5
The stats suggest he is in elite company.. I don't think when the dust settles 4 or 5 years from now that Domi will be in the same league. I don't think anyone expects him to outscore Laine over the next 5 years, but he might not be that far behind, either. His "bad" season would've still been in the 50 point range if the season hadn't been cut short, which in itself is nothing to sneeze on. His average of the last 2 seasons puts him around #70 for overall scoring. Guys like Radulov and Pacioretty are older and it's more than likely that Domi outscores them over anything over 3 seasons, even if all are healthy.
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Post by folatre on Sept 10, 2020 6:36:38 GMT -5
Time will say.
Since Domi is without a contract, the most relevant short-term question is who are his actual comparables. I think that a case could be made that William Karlsson and Reinhart may be fairly appropriate.
Karlsson had that one mega-star season and then came back to earth. Vegas gave him 8 years/$47.2 million, but one must keep in mind Karlsson gave up six or seven unrestricted years to get that type of money. If Domi wants something shorter -- maybe four years -- so he can take another bite at the apple when the league's finances have recovered, then he is probably getting something in the $5-5.5 per range.
I continue to think good offers will materialize. All it takes is two or three GMs and coaching staffs who believe Domi is a quality second line centre and the player being willing to sign something that gives his new team at least four seasons of a club controlled player through his prime years.
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 10, 2020 11:31:25 GMT -5
I like Domi and frankly would rather move a couple other small wingers off the roster rather than him. But this graphic is a little odd because Domi is being compared with random forwards who are vastly different ages and some of whom are centres while others are wingers. It is also slightly cagey (I'm not criticizing PTH) because Domi did not really outproduce anyone in the graphic in the chosen two-year window, let alone in their careers. In the two-year window used, the following was the point per game breakdown: .758 Domi .753 Laine .724 Dubois .820 Couture .774 Pacioretty .815 Radulov In their careers: .669 Domi .810 Laine .675 Dubois .764 Couture .726 Pacioretty .756 Radulov To me this is unfair to Domi... Apples and Oranges....Everyone not named Domi on this list gets the following: On their teams 1st line On their teams 1st PP unit And most of these teams shorten their bench when they need to Julien does not imo. Give this to Max and see what he can do... If you want, compare 5v5 only... might be a better comparison because our PP blows
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Post by seventeen on Sept 10, 2020 13:14:37 GMT -5
Something to keep in mind. Great find. I didn’t know this. Mark Twain said it best...."lies, damn lies, and statistics". If I was Domi's agent, I'd sure be using this. Another side is that Domi's numbers are inflated by one very good year. Ages aside, I don't trade any one of those guys for Domi, especially not Dubois or Laine. Still...Domi has value and shouldn't be given away just to create space.
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Post by UberCranky on Sept 10, 2020 14:19:44 GMT -5
Stats? Bahhh...phoui....pfffft
Domi isn't on the same level as Laine or Dubois. Age aside, talent wise, the others on that list are better to way better but older so their "value" is on par with Domi but thats it.
If they were all the same age, I'd take anyone of them over Domi. Heck....i'd drive him to the airport.
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 10, 2020 20:29:01 GMT -5
Stats? Bahhh...phoui....pfffft Domi isn't on the same level as Laine or Dubois. Age aside, talent wise, the others on that list are better to way better but older so their "value" is on par with Domi but thats it. If they were all the same age, I'd take anyone of them over Domi. Heck....i'd drive him to the airport. I would say 50/50 we trade Domi. Teams just don't want to part with much for him. He is by far best at center. But we are loaded at center.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 10, 2020 23:01:10 GMT -5
Conor McKenna had a poll on Twitter and 2 out of 3 respondents said they would prefer giving Danault, rather than Domi, a $5MM x 5 year contract. Being a contrarian, I voted the other way of course. There's no way I'm paying a #3 Centre $5MM a year. Having said that, there's no way I'd pay a goalie more than $6.5MM a a year, so obviously Bergevin has a much different thought process than I do. Additionally, Danault is a local boy, so my prediction is that Domi gets traded and Danault gets his $$.
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Post by UberCranky on Sept 11, 2020 1:13:39 GMT -5
.....so obviously Bergevin has a much different thought process.... Maybe just maybe, he is working with the cards he's given by his golden spooner boss? I've encountered a few sons of owners who thought that they were the very embodiment of brilliance. Since nobody ever told them they were wrong so shut the **** up, they never knew, actually, ever exposed to a dissenting opinion or someone who can possibly be smarter then them. (I actually worked for one. He threw a tantrum several times and fired me....because I "didn't listen". Although amazingly, I never actually got a chance to leave and eventually quit to start my own company.) For all we know, very likely that Mol$on one and only criteria and measure of success is to increase the value of the club and make it profitable every year. That is the total sum of what he wants and the rest is only filler to keep the stupid masses from boycotting. That is the only thing he demands and metrics from his GM. You want an example.....think of the last three years of the extra 8 million Molson pocketed. Would that be the case if his sole intent was winning? So Bbinz may not be stupid as we want to believe, but simply surviving in a world that pays him ridiculous amount of money relative to his management skills. Who is going to hire Bergy to build a franchise given his "success" with the Habs? So is he really going to stand firm against his boss? Or go with the "flow"? That is why I'm in the 95% range that Mol$on is Ballard V2....and Bbinz is a yes man.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 11, 2020 1:24:38 GMT -5
There he is, the sleepless one..posting at 2:15 in the morning. You sleepwalker, you.
I've always considered that as a possibility....that Molson has given Bergevin a Montreal CAP that is a lot lower than the NHL CAP. So maybe he isn't dumb. But as a fan whose goal is for his team to win the Stanley Cup, I reserve the right to dis anyone in the organization who isn't pulling in that same direction. So... I don't give a damn if he's working under some pressure other than winning. Grow a few and quit, Marc. Let the world know you couldn't get the job done because your boss is a money grubbing, sanctimonious ass. It's not as if you need even more money. $!0MM or more not enough for you? If not, you're just as bad as your boss and deserve all the ridicule we can heap on you. The alternative, no matter what your excuses afterward, is that you were the worst GM the team has ever had. The worst. Worse than Reggie. How's that for your legacy? We could spray paint your headstone - "I was worse than Rejean".
There...I think I have all bases covered and can continue giving the franchise a bad time until they change directions. I'm sure it's only a matter of time and I have my fingers crossed I live that long.
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Post by clear observer on Sept 11, 2020 10:48:00 GMT -5
Me?
I keep Domi and shop Danault.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Sept 11, 2020 12:22:56 GMT -5
Me? I keep Domi and shop Danault. Ditto ...
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Post by jkr on Sept 11, 2020 14:13:28 GMT -5
I'm with you guys. Domi has exhibited offensive potential & on this club, that is in short supply. If it comes down to either or for the money suggested, I'll go with Domi.
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Post by UberCranky on Sept 11, 2020 14:24:07 GMT -5
There he is, the sleepless one..posting at 2:15 in the morning. You sleepwalker, you. I've always considered that as a possibility....that Molson has given Bergevin a Montreal CAP that is a lot lower than the NHL CAP. So maybe he isn't dumb. But as a fan whose goal is for his team to win the Stanley Cup, I reserve the right to dis anyone in the organization who isn't pulling in that same direction. So... I don't give a damn if he's working under some pressure other than winning. Grow a few and quit, Marc. Let the world know you couldn't get the job done because your boss is a money grubbing, sanctimonious ass. It's not as if you need even more money. $!0MM or more not enough for you? If not, you're just as bad as your boss and deserve all the ridicule we can heap on you. The alternative, no matter what your excuses afterward, is that you were the worst GM the team has ever had. The worst. Worse than Reggie. How's that for your legacy? We could spray paint your headstone - "I was worse than Rejean". There...I think I have all bases covered and can continue giving the franchise a bad time until they change directions. I'm sure it's only a matter of time and I have my fingers crossed I live that long. I'm not sleepless, I'm just resting from the abuse heaped on my poor body by a bevy of supermodels. Right next to useless golden spooners are yes-man, quota fillers and nepotism slugs that are so called "managers". Fortunately, the market takes care of the vast majority, but not the same could be said in government or tax fed institutions. Within a few years, two of our "stars" will fade and then like a sad game of Whack-A-Mole, need to replace them while our hopefully budding "stars" want jackpots. Did I mention Whack-A-Mole of rebuilding? All that with proven mediocre management. Like you, I'm not sure I will see another cup in my lifetime.....so I'm not so forgiving or willing to gulp the phoney hope Cool-Aid.
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Post by jkr on Sept 11, 2020 15:28:27 GMT -5
There he is, the sleepless one..posting at 2:15 in the morning. You sleepwalker, you. I've always considered that as a possibility....that Molson has given Bergevin a Montreal CAP that is a lot lower than the NHL CAP. So maybe he isn't dumb. But as a fan whose goal is for his team to win the Stanley Cup, I reserve the right to dis anyone in the organization who isn't pulling in that same direction. So... I don't give a damn if he's working under some pressure other than winning. Grow a few and quit, Marc. Let the world know you couldn't get the job done because your boss is a money grubbing, sanctimonious ass. It's not as if you need even more money. $!0MM or more not enough for you? If not, you're just as bad as your boss and deserve all the ridicule we can heap on you. The alternative, no matter what your excuses afterward, is that you were the worst GM the team has ever had. The worst. Worse than Reggie. How's that for your legacy? We could spray paint your headstone - "I was worse than Rejean". There...I think I have all bases covered and can continue giving the franchise a bad time until they change directions. I'm sure it's only a matter of time and I have my fingers crossed I live that long. I'm not sleepless, I'm just resting from the abuse heaped on my poor body by a bevy of supermodels. Right next to useless golden spooners are yes-man, quota fillers and nepotism slugs that are so called "managers". Fortunately, the market takes care of the vast majority, but not the same could be said in government or tax fed institutions. Within a few years, two of our "stars" will fade and then like a sad game of Whack-A-Mole, need to replace them while our hopefully budding "stars" want jackpots. Did I mention Whack-A-Mole of rebuilding? All that with proven mediocre management. Like you, I'm not sure I will see another cup in my lifetime.....so I'm not so forgiving or willing to gulp the phoney hope Cool-Aid. Didn't you mention that your father is over 100? You have genetics on your side when it comes to waiting for the Habs to win.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Sept 11, 2020 15:44:31 GMT -5
Me? I keep Domi and shop Danault. Ditto ... There are huge roster implications coming up, especially up front. Gallagher, Tatar, and Danault are all UFA after 2020-21. Throw in Armia and Weal as well. I'm fine unloading Danault now and keeping Domi, if only because Max is an RFA and can be a valuable part of a trade. Bergevin has a lot of decisions to make and that scares me. Sign Danault? Sign Gallagher? Keep Domi? Trade Domi? As we've seen many times, decisions you make on one player can be made good or undermined by decisions you make on other players. It's not just about trading Subban for Weber, it's making the team better. Same with the Drouin trade, which was in part undermined by the failure to sign Radulov. This is why I don't trust the guy. A lot of decisions need to come together, Bergevin has never been able to get the mix right, and even then you need a bit of luck. Bergevin could end up making decisions in the next 6-12 months that will determine the course of the franchise for the next 5 years.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 11, 2020 19:25:25 GMT -5
But he always wins his trades, BH. Mind you, the meter is still ticking on the Sergachev and Subban trades.
I too do not trust him. Whether it's because he has restrictions placed on him by Molson or that he just has poor judgment, he has not been able to build a team. Sakic took over a mess as well, but had enough sense to not build too quickly, pick up some top 10 picks and add difference makers to his roster. All I can say is thank god Sakic's scouting staff isn't really good or the league would be in trouble. Outside of the top obvious picks, the Avs scouts have been bad. But Sakic has made the most of moving existing assets like Tyson Barrie, Ryan O'Rielly and Matt Duchene.
He's also traded for guys and picks at ages where they're all coming together and maturing as a group, and he signed them to long terms before their talent was maximized. Remember that bridge contract for PK? What if Berg had signed him to 6x $6MM instead? Nah, it wouldn't have mattered. Berg hated PK. (another error of judgement, though others will disagree)
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Post by UberCranky on Sept 11, 2020 20:34:19 GMT -5
Didn't you mention that your father is over 100? You have genetics on your side when it comes to waiting for the Habs to win. 102...but I wasn't planning at throwing my adult diapers around in frustration....or pulling the remaining 6 hairs on hearing that we now are going on the 12th "5 year plan".
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Sept 11, 2020 20:55:51 GMT -5
I'm not sleepless, I'm just resting from the abuse heaped on my poor body by a bevy of supermodels. Right next to useless golden spooners are yes-man, quota fillers and nepotism slugs that are so called "managers". Fortunately, the market takes care of the vast majority, but not the same could be said in government or tax fed institutions. Within a few years, two of our "stars" will fade and then like a sad game of Whack-A-Mole, need to replace them while our hopefully budding "stars" want jackpots. Did I mention Whack-A-Mole of rebuilding? All that with proven mediocre management. Like you, I'm not sure I will see another cup in my lifetime.....so I'm not so forgiving or willing to gulp the phoney hope Cool-Aid. Didn't you mention that your father is over 100? You have genetics on your side when it comes to waiting for the Habs to win. Most of the blame is on Molson. Bergevin is trying his best. He admits its hard. He is not competent to do a better job. I don’t really expect him to resign saying I’ve done a poor job. It’s up to Molson to do that. The money is coming from ticket sales, beer and food concessions and overpriced condos. Minor additions from printed tickets and bricks along with sweaters. Molson has a great tv revenue too. Lay off the ticket takers.
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Post by PTH on Sept 12, 2020 0:19:44 GMT -5
.. What if Berg had signed him to 6x $6MM instead? Nah, it wouldn't have mattered. Berg hated PK. (another error of judgement, though others will disagree) He's have been a UFA a couple of years ago, before his rapid decline started, and the pressure to sign him again for similar or higher numbers would be hard to resist. I personnally love bridge deals, since if you follow them up with an 8 year deal, you get a guy about until he's 33, ie, through his best years. No bridge deals means UFAs at 27 or so, who are impossible to let go, but aren't usually able to see that an 8 year deal for max money might not make sense for the team.
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Post by PTH on Sept 12, 2020 0:23:02 GMT -5
Great find. I didn’t know this. Mark Twain said it best...."lies, damn lies, and statistics". If I was Domi's agent, I'd sure be using this. Another side is that Domi's numbers are inflated by one very good year. Ages aside, I don't trade any one of those guys for Domi, especially not Dubois or Laine. Still...Domi has value and shouldn't be given away just to create space. While there's a bit of cherry-picking in choosing the period to include, it's still a fair comparison; it's not as if we were looking at PP points over 4.5 seasons except when there's a full moon. I actually think Domi would be a great #2 center for a non-contender. His defensive game is just too weak for a top 6 C role on a winning team, but for Buffalo or Ottawa who are just looking to be entertaining enough while they rebuild, he should be a great fit. Kind of he was for us last year: a #1 center who generates offense, and while he costs us a lot of goals, the idea is just to be competitive, not actually win games.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 12, 2020 2:21:02 GMT -5
Yes. He would indeed be a good 2C on a non contender. Your move, Marc.
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Post by franko on Sept 12, 2020 8:21:52 GMT -5
for Buffalo or Ottawa who are just looking to be entertaining enough while they rebuild . . . "this" is the year not to care -- I mean, to plan for the future. with no fans in the stands (no beer to sell etc) bottom tier teams are not going to worry (Ottawa will be a floor team and justify "laying the ground for the future", though they might create a losing culture more than it is now). you have to have a vision beyond getting into the playoffs where anything can happen, though. unfortunately, the history of the Habs plays against them -- the "storied franchise" always has to have at least the perception of trying, even if (smart) fans are willing to have a year or two of pain. too many will accept mediocrity and near-playoff seasons than be really bad (worse than the Leafs bad) and land at the bottom. too embarrassing for a fan.
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 15, 2020 19:15:47 GMT -5
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